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Mud
2011-09-13 04:28:09 pm
Who says you have to do any of those things (aside from surviving the Pyramid) to have a submittable run? Passing through enemies with Wil is very difficult and saves a minimal amount of time, the cost-benefit just isn't worth it. And if killing the vampires isn't feasible as Wil in realtime, nobody's going to blame you for using Freedan instead.

I think SDAers try too much to blur the distinction between realtime runs and TASes. Don't torture yourself to pull off unrealistic tricks with minimal benefits just because it's possible in a TAS.
PJ
2011-09-13 05:25:23 pm
Is PJ
The vampire kill with Will, passing through enemies with Will, and other tricks that seem like TAS-only are definitely feasible in a single segment run.  I don't think that is being unrealistic.
André
2011-09-14 06:45:10 pm
Main Work!!!
Quote from PJ:
The vampire kill with Will, passing through enemies with Will, and other tricks that seem like TAS-only are definitely feasible in a single segment run.  I don't think that is being unrealistic.

I agree with this, I used to kill the vampire pretty fast as Will since once you get the pattern, the vampire are quite easy(in a world where easy have a little different meaning). Since your doing a segmented run, I'm quite hard on segmented run and I would accept a good run that doesn't imply passing through enemies except if you find a way to save 1 minutes on 1 passing through enemy. If I mistaken myself and you're doing a SS, I would be more loose and would accept that you beat the vampire as Freedan but I'm sure you can practice them as Will, I'm quite confident on you with this. But I wouldn't disagree that the pyramid will be a pain in a SS.
puwexil
2011-12-04 04:44:37 pm
Professional Second Banana
Managed to pull off a trick Halamantariel does in his TAS, to skip having to switch to Freedan after placing the first Statue of Hope in Mu (the game expects you to Dark Friar the golem before using the bounce ring to climp the ramp).  I thought that the combination of bounce ring and ramp physics would make getting past the golem as Will a frame-perfect trick, but it turned out to not be difficult at all (the golems seem to have fairly generous invincibility frames compared to other enemies in the game, as passing through the 2 golems in front of the first Rama's Statue chest was also fairly easy).

PJ
2011-12-04 05:08:29 pm
Is PJ
Nice job!  Cheesy
puwexil
2011-12-27 06:21:52 pm
Professional Second Banana
After struggling with the 3rd Pyramid room (or the Laser Death Room as I call it) for a while, I've put this route draft together.  The main idea is to use the Dark Friar upgrade from Euro to trip the elevator switch in the 1st room from afar (regular dark friar shot won't trip the switch, but the split shots from the upgrade will get the job done), which will let you get to the lowest level of the 1st room without needing Shadow's Aura ability.

Please excuse the sloppiness with some of laser orbs in the 2nd room - the idea will be to I-frame dash through most of them (the exception being the 6-pack at the end) and trip the switches; so if I want to kill the orbs for safety, it'll be while I'm waiting for the elevator to raise/lower.  In this test my DEF was 3 higher than normal due to some grinding - ideally I'll be able to cut that down to 1 (and just kill the 2 laser orbs in the Pyramid entrance for +1 DEF) and have an herb for safety.

André
2011-12-27 06:29:19 pm
Main Work!!!
Your route seem totally sick, so finally are you sure if you're going to run this Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy .
PJ
2011-12-28 12:49:40 am
Is PJ
I already showed this to Puwexil and discussed some options, but I figured I'd post the video here just for completeness.



This is a route through that room with Shadow.  I wrote some stuff in the video description which might be useful to know.  Basically the only difficulty is killing the 6-pack of orbs at the end.  I can generally do it with only 1-2 hits, but this video is a pretty poor display.  Haha.
GalleonLogic
2011-12-29 08:07:12 am
Hi all,

I was wondering if you guys have a definition of 100% for this game?

I figure it will include getting all 50 Red Jewels and beating Jem's mansion.  However the main things I'm wondering about are not only about inventory items required, but also if it would involve getting every force power (HP/Str/Def from defeating the enemies)  as you progress, or whether the fact that you get all the upgrades as you go along counts towards that completion.

As a side note I was playing on the Japanese version, while most of the game is identical, there are some differences that are of note:
- You don't have to kill Castoth's hands, they are in the fight, but basically don't get in the way.
- The Vampires have a different set of attacks, which all in all I would consider to be easier.
- There are platforms across the gaps in the Pyramid
- You have a 40 second time limit in the Moon Tribe Room (over the western 20)
- Most importantly, Herbs recover all life lost.
puwexil
2011-12-29 08:38:24 am
Professional Second Banana
SDA defines 100% Illusion of Gaia as getting all 50 Red Jewels and defeating Solid Arm at Jem's Mansion, since you have to do basically all sidequests in the game to accomplish this.  Getting stat boosts from clearing rooms in dungeons isn't required since you'll get to max stats at the end of the game anyway from defeating bosses (I think the missable HP-Up item in Freejia can also be gotten this way) and trading in Red Jewels.

That's very interesting about the Japanese version - the change in herb mechanics alone would change the speedrun route in a few places (ie being able to skip the entire fishing minigame during the drifting sequence), and probably warrant separate categories on SDA for Illusion of Gaia/Time and Gaia Gensoki.  I'll have to try it out sometime and see what the changes to the bosses and the pyramid maps would mean for a speedrun.
PJ
2011-12-29 11:20:38 am
Is PJ
Wow, yea the Japanese version sounds much easier!  That's really interesting.  I agree that it would likely be considered a separate category.  I'll have to play through this one sometime!  Thanks for letting us know, GalleonLogic!
puwexil
2011-12-29 07:42:11 pm
Professional Second Banana
Just played the Japanese version up through Mu.  It's definitely a little easier than the English version for the reasons GalleonLogic listed (the Vampires' move set and AI are completely different, and looks like an overall easier battle once you're used to it), but a really nasty difference I noticed immediately was with the text boxes.  In English there are 2 kinds of text boxes in the game: Probably 75% of the text boxes in the game are "fast" boxes where the text all appears instantaneously (and you can mash through the dialogue quickly) and the rest are "slow" boxes where the text draws out line-by-line.  In Japanese, ALL text boxes are the slower type, which will add a fair amount of time to a speedrun.
PJ
2011-12-29 08:23:54 pm
Is PJ
Oh ew.  First ever game with slower text in the Japanese version?  Tongue

If that's the case, I'd definitely prefer the US version over SFC version.  Cutscenes already make me rage hard; making them longer and the gameplay less exciting (read: easier) would not be a good trade.
Dessyreqt
2012-01-01 04:47:13 am
I actually couldn't stand playing Gaia Gensoku right away because of the text boxes. I was quite upset, but JP games are cheap, so I didn't mind that much. I've done a little practice on 100%, up to the raft scene. I'd say I have on average about 23 mins SS up to Castoth, which isn't that great, but eventually I'd like to get it down, maybe to run it at the summer marathon.
puwexil
2012-01-01 08:15:32 am
Professional Second Banana
Illusion of Gaia would definitely make an great addition to SGDQ2 (for all of the pie-related dialogue if nothing else Wink ) if one of us can get it in shape by then.
GalleonLogic
2012-01-01 05:06:22 pm
I didn't even notice the text box differences, ah well, it was an idea.

Does anyone have a good Mummy Queen strat (preferably with SS in mind)? It seems to be the one thing that I can never seem to get right, mine consists of sticking on the lower ground (as it is slightly larger), hitting the queen and retreating to one side, moving back to the middle and then exiting one side when they move in, running to the wall as they shouldn't reach you.  However this lacks safety, and a couple of quick shots and you're dead.  I love Will's slide in the fight (I was trying it as an alternate strategy) since he can slide through the spirits, however it is just too slow to effectively work in a speed run.

I need to work on my SS route through Mu, I've not considered a Will kill on the Vampires in the run (the thought alone fills me with dread) - Getting the first statue as Will, tracking back to the DS with Freedan and round to get the second statue before fighting the boss.  Aside from the pyramid (Yeah not a large matter at all...) the rest of the game I'm pretty happy with (although certainly only on a casual run level).  The slope skip (in Sky Garden) and quick Great Wall are both quite easy, Freedan Inca Ruin skip takes me a bit longer than I would like.

Any other tips and tricks you guys know would be much appreciated, If I get to the point that I can record even a casual SS I'll give it a go and show you the results.
puwexil
2012-01-01 08:45:10 pm
Professional Second Banana
The Mummy Queen strat I've been using is to bring Shadow and:

1. Attack
2. Move to the far left or right side of the lower-level
3. Use Aura when one of the ghosts is about to touch you, which will make you invincible long enough for the ghosts to start reforming the Queen
4. Attack, then run past to the other side of the lower-level
5. Repeat 3-4 until she uses her alternate ghost formation, in which case stay near her and keep attacking so you'll hit the solid ghost before the circle is able to break away

I haven't practiced this boss a whole lot yet, but the main challenge so far looks to be being able to quickly react to what she does in her 2nd phase (either run away if it's the split ghosts or stay close if it's the ghost circle), assuming it's actually random and not a predicable pattern.
Dessyreqt
2012-01-06 10:55:15 am
Yeah, it's actually pretty easy to cheese the fight using aura and changing levels for invincibility. In fact, if I remember correctly, all the fights are rather easy to cheese except for the vampires.
Golden
2012-01-09 08:27:52 pm
Voice
Just wanted to show some support and love for this speed run. IoG was one of my favorite games growing up. Keep up the good work!
Nitrodon
Nitrodon
Edit history:
Nitrodon: 2012-01-22 10:59:49 am
2012-01-22 10:56:28 am
I did a 100% run a couple nights ago in just under 4 hours.  Note that I got lost several times, and spent 34 minutes repeatedly failing room 3 of the pyramid.  (I didn't expect to do the full game when I started.)  I think closer to 3 hours might be realistic.

Quote from puwexil:
I haven't practiced this boss a whole lot yet, but the main challenge so far looks to be being able to quickly react to what she does in her 2nd phase (either run away if it's the split ghosts or stay close if it's the ghost circle), assuming it's actually random and not a predicable pattern.

If I remember correctly from my work on the TAS, it will be the split ghosts if she's currently doing her earthquake attack, and the ghost circle otherwise.
puwexil
2012-01-22 12:38:04 pm
Professional Second Banana
Does her palette color mean anything as far as which attack she's about to use?  Ideally you'll be hitting her immediately after she reforms from the ghosts and before she can start an attack, so I was wondering if the color could be used as a visual cue.
Nitrodon
2012-01-22 02:04:22 pm
I tested it just now, and her palette color is strictly a function of her HP.  You don't need to react that quickly though: the ghosts stand still for a second or two before splitting, giving you plenty of time to run even after attacking where the solid ghost would be.
GravityWell
2012-01-24 09:53:39 am
I’m not sure where to post this, but this thread seems appropriate enough.

First, I did some ram searching to find a few codes you can use on an emulator. Note that you replace XX with whatever hexadecimal value you want.

7E0ACAXX- Max HP
7E0ACEXX- Current HP
7E0ADEXX- Str
7E0ADCXX- Def
7E0AD400- Become Wil
7E0AD401- Become Freedan
7E0AD402- Become Shadow

I couldn’t manage to find the ram address for special attacks, or the version of shadow that shoots hawks Sad It would be awesome if someone else could find them, though.

On another note, I played through the Japanese version of the game (called Gaia Gensouki) to see what the vampire boss fight was like. It is indeed very different (and much easier), so much so that I recorded an smv and took a few screenshots for the curious. The floating continent boss is noticeably different as well, though only from an aesthetic standpoint.

Vampire Boss

Floating Continent Boss

Screenshots (in spoilers)

This is what initially happens with the character change codes Smiley














Now this is what happens when you put values like 4-8 in the character change code :O

















New Vampire Fight









Floating Continent Boss



Gravity Well
2012-01-24 09:56:44 am
I forgot to mention, those codes are very useful for planning purposes. For instance, you can make yourself invincible by setting current hp to 40 and leaving the code active, which makes practicing against the vampires that much easier.
puwexil
2012-01-24 10:55:40 am
Professional Second Banana
Thanks GravityWell.

I practiced the Japanese vampire fight a few times last month, and I agree that it's easier than the US version once you've gotten used to their new (old?) attacks.  It seemed to me that once one of the vampires died, the other one would start moving faster and attacking less frequently.  In a speedrun it may be a good idea to spread out your attacks between the 2 vampires rather than focusing on one of them; so that once the first one dies, you won't have to spend as much time chasing the 2nd one around to finish him/her off.

I believe the sprite for Viper (Sky Garden boss) was changed to one more in line with South American mythology (the real Nazca lines are in Peru) for the US release of Illusion of Gaia.  Another odd change I noticed was the walls in the Diamond Mine being changed from purple to dark blue.