Hudson Hawk NES

2015-01-13 02:18:58 am

Hey all, I've recently started running this for the NES and I was curious whether any one else runs it as well. It's not a very good game and the controls and little nuances of the game take a good bit to get used to. But I've been enjoying finding all the little time savers throughout and would definitely love to compare notes with anyone else that was interested in running it. It's a quick game to beat and it feels really good being able to dominate it's less than stellar controls. My current PB is 8:56, with a bunch of sloppy sections, but sub 8:30 should be feasible.

Here's the video of my current PB

Thread title:

WhiteHat94

2015-01-25 02:12:48 am

Got a new PB of 8:31 and I can definitely drop a bit of time off that, I'm getting close to a really solid run.

Found a couple of interesting glitches throughout my runs.

Here's a stupid little soft lock I accidentally found.

This death glitch is actually quite interesting. It seems that if you die while you are in the air, the game thinks you are dead but doesn't respawn you, so you are "invincible" and can't interact with most enemies. The downside is that you can't grab the artifact at the end of the level, so I'm no actually sure if this could be used in a run.

And this last one is a weird glitch that kind of allows you to double jump. I'm not sure of the exact button presses required, so it's really inconsistent.

ktwo

2015-01-25 01:18:58 pm

I watched the Thrilla's Surfari run earlier today and when I realized it was you, I had to check out what you had come up with for this game as well. I only watched the 8:56 run though as it seems you haven't uploaded the new run. It looks like you're on the right track on this one. However, have you checked out the tas? http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6582&highlight= It looks like the first death abuse was done a bit differently and there were also some other minor differences that could maybe help you cut off some time. Good luck.

The double jump seems like it has potential for some nice time savers. I tried to get it briefly on emulator, but without success. Do you have any instructions for roughly how you did it? The taser apparently didn't know about it. He knew about the "death glitch" though. According to him, it doesn't save any time.

WhiteHat94

2015-01-25 01:42:05 pm

Awesome, I'll definitely check the TAS out, I wasn't aware someone made one.

And for the double jump, I hold down B and then mash A, that's as far as I understand it, ha. Sometimes it happens within a second or two, other times it'll take 10 seconds or more. I think it would only be applicable on the very first screen if I could nail it right away, there aren't any other spots I could think of to use it.

WhiteHat94

2015-01-26 12:39:06 am

Alright, haven't played in a week but I just got a new PB, 8:20. Somehow this is only 2 seconds off my sum of best, but I think there's an easy 5 seconds I could improve, possibly more if I just get a killer run. I freakin hate that jump at the beginning of level 3, ha, it's so inconsistent, that's the only major mistake in this run.

ktwo

Edit history:

ktwo: 2015-01-28 10:44:10 am

2015-01-28 10:43:16 am

Nice! Too bad about the missed jump of course.

I've figured out how the double-jump works. It's pretty simple. If you press B and hold it down, you'll eventually (after 12 frames) perform a punch. If you press A 3 frames before the punch animation begins, you'll get the double-jump. It's a one-frame trick. If you practice it a bit now when the mechanics behind it are known, you should hopefully be able to increase the success rate. Imo, it's worth at least trying for a while to do it on the first screen even though it doesn't save that much time. However, there are three other rooms, where it would save quite a bit of time even if it takes a few tries (see the attached screenshots). Unfortunately, they're all late in the game. The last one (edit: 2.png) is also very risky since you'll likely fall back down if you miss it (you need move right during the jump). I just thought of these three spots from watching your video. Maybe there are more places where it's worth it as well?

Finally, have you really implemented everything you could from the tas? I noticed you stopped at 1:22 in the 8:20 video. The tas starts earlier and can get through without stopping. I tried it out and it wasn't too hard. This was just a small time saver, but maybe there's more stuff as well that could add up?

Nice! Too bad about the missed jump of course.

I've figured out how the double-jump works. It's pretty simple. If you press B and hold it down, you'll eventually (after 12 frames) perform a punch. If you press A 3 frames before the punch animation begins, you'll get the double-jump. It's a one-frame trick. If you practice it a bit now when the mechanics behind it are known, you should hopefully be able to increase the success rate. Imo, it's worth at least trying for a while to do it on the first screen even though it doesn't save that much time. However, there are three other rooms, where it would save quite a bit of time even if it takes a few tries (see the attached screenshots). Unfortunately, they're all late in the game. The last one (edit: 2.png) is also very risky since you'll likely fall back down if you miss it (you need move right during the jump). I just thought of these three spots from watching your video. Maybe there are more places where it's worth it as well?

Finally, have you really implemented everything you could from the tas? I noticed you stopped at 1:22 in the 8:20 video. The tas starts earlier and can get through without stopping. I tried it out and it wasn't too hard. This was just a small time saver, but maybe there's more stuff as well that could add up?

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2015-01-28 02:52:30 pm

Great info about the double jump, I'll have to practice it. I think I'd probably only use it on the very first screen. In the second and third screenshots the jumps are just too high, I don't think the double jump can make it. I have actually done the double jump on the ladder screenshot, it's super hard and it seems like you have to do 2 of them in a row, I'll try to get a video of it. I doubt I'd want to throw that in at the end of the run because it's so difficult. Other than that one I don't think there is anywhere else it could be used, which is a shame since it's so cool.

And I tried to put in stuff from the TAS that I think is faster/worth it, but he also does a number of things that are slower than me, mainly in the first screen of level 2, he wastes like 5 seconds going all the way around to get the box. The movie also desyncs on level 3 so I don't know what he does or what his final time is, but it's a pretty straightforward level so I'd assume it's similar to what I do.

As for stopping in the air ducts part, there are 2 or 3 different patterns for the steam, one starts fast and one starts slow, so you don't know what pattern it is until you enter the room. You might get lucky and make it through, or you might run right into the first steam. All the little time savers do add up, but it's so easy to die in/lose a run, so there's a tradeoff I have to make so I don't lose my mind trying to gain tenths of a second and dying, ha

Great info about the double jump, I'll have to practice it. I think I'd probably only use it on the very first screen. In the second and third screenshots the jumps are just too high, I don't think the double jump can make it. I have actually done the double jump on the ladder screenshot, it's super hard and it seems like you have to do 2 of them in a row, I'll try to get a video of it. I doubt I'd want to throw that in at the end of the run because it's so difficult. Other than that one I don't think there is anywhere else it could be used, which is a shame since it's so cool.

And I tried to put in stuff from the TAS that I think is faster/worth it, but he also does a number of things that are slower than me, mainly in the first screen of level 2, he wastes like 5 seconds going all the way around to get the box. The movie also desyncs on level 3 so I don't know what he does or what his final time is, but it's a pretty straightforward level so I'd assume it's similar to what I do.

As for stopping in the air ducts part, there are 2 or 3 different patterns for the steam, one starts fast and one starts slow, so you don't know what pattern it is until you enter the room. You might get lucky and make it through, or you might run right into the first steam. All the little time savers do add up, but it's so easy to die in/lose a run, so there's a tradeoff I have to make so I don't lose my mind trying to gain tenths of a second and dying, ha

ktwo

2015-01-28 03:02:10 pm

The double-jump works in all the screenshots (I've tried it myself). If you read the whole tas-thread, the taser made a second file for the last level because of the desync. You need an older emulator version to get it to play though (and no, it doesn't look too different from what you did). I didn't know about the different steam patterns. It's such a small time saver that I understand if you want to spend resets due to rng because of it.

WhiteHat94

2015-01-28 03:13:25 pm

I'll try some of the double jumps again. The one at the very end of the game didn't seem possible because of the large gap between the platforms.

WhiteHat94

2015-01-30 01:29:21 am

I wasn't able to replicate those 2 double jumps, so I don't think they'd be useful for a RTA.

Well here's the new PB, down to 8:06. Took me 3 tries to get the double jump and I choked twice in the middle of stage 3, but still a huge improvement. I've actually got the double jump on the first screen down to probably 1 in 3 on the first try, knowing the mechanics behind it helps immensely. I didn't think sub 8 would be possible, but it looks like it is. I'll probably be done the first sub 8 I get.

ktwo

2015-01-30 03:57:14 am

Damn, I don't see where all the improvements come from and it even looks like more mistakes than before. Anyways, good to see all the progress.

If we disregard the last d-j opportunity (probably too risky unless a new consistent setup is found), what's the problem with the other two spots? If I refer to my screenshots above:
- In 0.png, hold right on the d-pad until you're stuck by the pillar. Keep holding right and keep trying to perform the d-j exactly like before. If you get it, Hudson will move up one pixel vertically. Holding right prevents the d-j though, so you're in a "buffered d-j state". Now release right (Hudson will perform the d-j) and quickly repress right so you get on top of the pillar.
-In 1.png, after every non-successful d-j try, you will enter the climbing animation, so you have to press up in between every attempt. The enemies can pose a threat here as well.

Even if the actions need to be slightly adapted to the situations, getting the d-j trick to work is equally easy/hard everywhere. You decide where you wanna use it, but I'm pretty convinced the time gain is so big that it would be a bit of a waste for someone at your level to not go for it in more places than on the first screen.

I'd like to check a bunch of other things that you're doing as well. I'll be far away from video games the next couple of days though so ot won't be until next week some time.

Damn, I don't see where all the improvements come from and it even looks like more mistakes than before. Anyways, good to see all the progress.

If we disregard the last d-j opportunity (probably too risky unless a new consistent setup is found), what's the problem with the other two spots? If I refer to my screenshots above:
- In 0.png, hold right on the d-pad until you're stuck by the pillar. Keep holding right and keep trying to perform the d-j exactly like before. If you get it, Hudson will move up one pixel vertically. Holding right prevents the d-j though, so you're in a "buffered d-j state". Now release right (Hudson will perform the d-j) and quickly repress right so you get on top of the pillar.
-In 1.png, after every non-successful d-j try, you will enter the climbing animation, so you have to press up in between every attempt. The enemies can pose a threat here as well.

Even if the actions need to be slightly adapted to the situations, getting the d-j trick to work is equally easy/hard everywhere. You decide where you wanna use it, but I'm pretty convinced the time gain is so big that it would be a bit of a waste for someone at your level to not go for it in more places than on the first screen.

I'd like to check a bunch of other things that you're doing as well. I'll be far away from video games the next couple of days though so ot won't be until next week some time.

WhiteHat94

2015-01-30 09:30:03 am

Gotcha, I'll keep trying those djs then, cause they definitely save over 10 seconds combined.

The first double jump saves between 2 and 2.5 seconds if I get it first try. I also save 5 or 6 seconds in the air ducts. I death abuse on the close steam instead of the far one near the switch now. I get through one of the ladders a cycle earlier, and I can get through the electric room at the top of the ladder without stopping now. And I practiced the end of stage 2 a bunch to get my movement cleaner right before the codex.

WhiteHat94

2015-01-31 03:27:12 am

Alright, I have successfully gotten all the double jumps multiple times now, they really aren't bad and I'm planning on using all of them. I figured out the ladder dj, and it's actually not bad at all. You climb all the the way up, and then hold up the whole time during all this, do one regular jump and you get a little height above the ladder, then get a double jump, once you're up and stationary from the dj just let go of up and you'll pop right up there.

I figured out the last one in this video, it's cool and saves maybe a couple of seconds, but I wouldn't try it in a real run, since it's literally like 5 seconds from the finish.

If I can hit all of these in a run I'm gonna crush 8 minutes.

ktwo

2015-02-04 10:17:40 am

I initally had a bunch of ideas on how to improve, but that was without really having played the game. I have now played through the game, which helped me understand a lot more things going on in the run. I have found one nice trick in the last room, which will save ~5 seconds without adding risk. I have also a few minor strat suggestions that you can consider. I have compiled everything in this video:

Some comments about the clips:
1. Demonstration of the new trick. I think it's pretty self-explanatory.
2. Roughly 3 seconds faster than 1, but includes one double-jump. One missed d-j costs ~1 second so if you miss three of them, it's about equal.
3. Roughly 1.5 seconds faster than 2, but includes two double-jumps.
4. Minor detail. Since the jump mechanics are ass in this game, I find this really tough to do. But you seem to be more used to them, so maybe it's easier for you?
5. Minor detail. Why did you duck under these alarms? Were you low on health?

I also ran into the death/invincibility glitch you described above by accident. It happened in the first corridor of Rutherfords when taking a hit from a projectile. I assume it can be done pretty much anywhere. I haven't tried to recreate it, but I guess it could save time for example in the last building of level 2, where you have to stop so many times to take out the enemies. But it wouldn't be a huge time saver and I'm not sure if there is a good way to set it up.

I initally had a bunch of ideas on how to improve, but that was without really having played the game. I have now played through the game, which helped me understand a lot more things going on in the run. I have found one nice trick in the last room, which will save ~5 seconds without adding risk. I have also a few minor strat suggestions that you can consider. I have compiled everything in this video: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_350TS6sxro

Some comments about the clips:
1. Demonstration of the new trick. I think it's pretty self-explanatory.
2. Roughly 3 seconds faster than 1, but includes one double-jump. One missed d-j costs ~1 second so if you miss three of them, it's about equal.
3. Roughly 1.5 seconds faster than 2, but includes two double-jumps.
4. Minor detail. Since the jump mechanics are ass in this game, I find this really tough to do. But you seem to be more used to them, so maybe it's easier for you?
5. Minor detail. Why did you duck under these alarms? Were you low on health?

I also ran into the death/invincibility glitch you described above by accident. It happened in the first corridor of Rutherfords when taking a hit from a projectile. I assume it can be done pretty much anywhere. I haven't tried to recreate it, but I guess it could save time for example in the last building of level 2, where you have to stop so many times to take out the enemies. But it wouldn't be a huge time saver and I'm not sure if there is a good way to set it up.

WhiteHat94

2015-02-04 01:37:42 pm

Awesome, I'll definitely use one of those strats. I actually had thought of doing something like that but I couldn't think of how to route it out or do it in the right order, so this is great. After I finally finished a run hitting the 2 double jumps on level 3, none on the final screen, it knocked my sum of best down to 7:51, so that's pretty huge.

I duck under the alarms soley to not set them off. It just easier to get through 2 regular cameras, instead of 2 fast ones, and I don't think it loses very much time. It's possible to jump through them without setting them off but it's pretty precise.

I don't think the death glitch is useful because I think it's pretty hard to manage your health perfectly without killing yourself, mainly. And I've run through the entire 2nd level with the glitch, you can do it a lot faster but you can't pick up the book at the very end. You can't kill yourself in that last room to clear the glitch, so you just soft lock in there. I don't think there's any spot you can kill yourself to make it worthwhile.

And I don't know what you're talking about, the jumping is perfect, haha

Awesome, I'll definitely use one of those strats. I actually had thought of doing something like that but I couldn't think of how to route it out or do it in the right order, so this is great. After I finally finished a run hitting the 2 double jumps on level 3, none on the final screen, it knocked my sum of best down to 7:51, so that's pretty huge.

I duck under the alarms soley to not set them off. It just easier to get through 2 regular cameras, instead of 2 fast ones, and I don't think it loses very much time. It's possible to jump through them without setting them off but it's pretty precise.

I don't think the death glitch is useful because I think it's pretty hard to manage your health perfectly without killing yourself, mainly. And I've run through the entire 2nd level with the glitch, you can do it a lot faster but you can't pick up the book at the very end. You can't kill yourself in that last room to clear the glitch, so you just soft lock in there. I don't think there's any spot you can kill yourself to make it worthwhile.

And I don't know what you're talking about, the jumping is perfect, haha

WhiteHat94

2015-02-08 12:27:44 am

And I am done, just got a 7:47. That's as far as I'm willing to push this game right now, it's just such an unforgiving game to run, so many things can 1 hit kill you. Sub 8 was a goal I had in the back of my mind, and for a while I wasn't sure it was possible, until we figured out the double jump. A bunch of small movement errors and missed a couple of the djs on the first try, perfect play/luck could save a max of 5-10 seconds, I'm 6 seconds off my sum of best.

I will be submitting this run.

ktwo

2015-02-08 06:58:33 am

That run was simply incredible... When you were talking about sub-8, I was hoping that you could get something close to 7:55 or maybe, if everything went extremely well, a low 7:50. And here you are with a 7:47! I can't believe you went for the double-jumps in both of the last rooms. You need some balls to do that on a good run and then nail them both on the first try! You deserve lots of respect for pushing a game with no speedrun history as low as this. It's been a pleasure following your progress in this game. Now I only hope that you have some more obscure nes-games in storage for us. :-) I'll be keeping my eyes open in that case (and hopefully be able to catch you on stream as well).

For the record, there were a few small things that I noticed. Nothing to redo the run for, but I just feel like mentioning it in case someone would get the idea to pick up this game in the future.
- At 3:57 in your video, you make a quick pause to avoid 2 damage from the dropping goe. It's difficult as a viewer to see how the health situation is in this game, but do you think it would be possible to tank the 2 damage there and still make it until the end of the level?
- In the second to last room of level 3, you stop to take out the burglar. That's an enemy you can just run straight through (at the cost of one health). I haven't commented on that before, because you haven't stopped the movement in that spot in the previous videos.

Anyways, the things above would have saved a few tenths of a second together, so nothing to worry about.

That run was simply incredible... When you were talking about sub-8, I was hoping that you could get something close to 7:55 or maybe, if everything went extremely well, a low 7:50. And here you are with a 7:47! I can't believe you went for the double-jumps in both of the last rooms. You need some balls to do that on a good run and then nail them both on the first try! You deserve lots of respect for pushing a game with no speedrun history as low as this. It's been a pleasure following your progress in this game. Now I only hope that you have some more obscure nes-games in storage for us. :-) I'll be keeping my eyes open in that case (and hopefully be able to catch you on stream as well).

For the record, there were a few small things that I noticed. Nothing to redo the run for, but I just feel like mentioning it in case someone would get the idea to pick up this game in the future.
- At 3:57 in your video, you make a quick pause to avoid 2 damage from the dropping goe. It's difficult as a viewer to see how the health situation is in this game, but do you think it would be possible to tank the 2 damage there and still make it until the end of the level?
- In the second to last room of level 3, you stop to take out the burglar. That's an enemy you can just run straight through (at the cost of one health). I haven't commented on that before, because you haven't stopped the movement in that spot in the previous videos.

Anyways, the things above would have saved a few tenths of a second together, so nothing to worry about.

PJ

2015-02-08 10:46:11 am

Is PJ

I second what ktwo said. This run is ridiculously good! Big props for pushing the game this far without any competition or any previous runs to compare to. That takes a lot of work, especially for a game as punishing as this! Cheesy

WhiteHat94

2015-02-08 03:55:18 pm

Thanks PJ, it was fun pushing it into uncharted territory.

And thanks ktwo, your help was very much appreciated and immensely useful.

I've tried tanking the goo but it's not worth it, there are so many other things could go wrong and kill you after, especially if one of the gun guys shoots you in level 1. Health does not refill between stages, only when you die, so it's always a concern after the death abuse in level 1.

And since you can only see your health when you pause I have no idea what my health was at, likely 1 or 2 hearts, so I pussed out and just killed that last guy, I've died on him in previous runs.

And I still can't believe I hit those last 2 djs either, so ridiculous, and your final room strat worked beautifully

ktwo

2015-02-09 02:19:03 pm

I didn't know the health wasn't restored between levels, but then it makes perfect sense to avoid damage in some places. That also applies to crawling under the three alarms, discussed earlier on. As my poor defense for that oversight, I have to say that I usually died from one-hit kills before having to worry about the health.

ktwo

2015-05-01 10:49:32 am

whitehat, in case you're still checking this thread, there is a tas in the works. There are a few new strats that seem feasible in real-time. There is especially a new route for the last room that is both faster and with almost no risk involved (no double-jump). The planning thread is here: http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6582

WhiteHat94

2015-05-01 07:47:48 pm

Awesome, I watched it earlier, really good stuff. Such a nice improvement over the old one. Glad we could help break the game even more, ha. Maybe someday I'll come back to it but no plans as of now, been grinding on RoboCop 2 lately. The last room is pretty nice, probably saves a few easy seconds