If the difference lies in the local regional settings of your system and not in different game releases, then I see no harm in requiring a 100% run to not be run on French/German settings to include the rampages. In fact, with such a simple solution to the issue, it would not be tracked as a separate version category.
SDA Forum
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The answer to that question would be irrelevant to the discussion, unless picking up the same mission that you are attempting to complete nullifies the previous completion attempt, in which case I would suggest that you should avoid triggering that bug.
To use an analogy, we don't care how many missile tanks/gold skulltulas/secret packages/whatever you dupe (unless duping them makes the run slower, as is normally the case), as long as you collect every other missile tank/gold skulltula/secret package/whatever on top of that. If for some reason you want to complete a VC mission 17 times, we don't care as long as every other mission is also completed. That is our criteria when judging 100% completion for any game, as it has always been.
I'm unable to properly comment on the GTA SA burgulary mission question, but to me it sounds like the run we have is incomplete.
To use an analogy, we don't care how many missile tanks/gold skulltulas/secret packages/whatever you dupe (unless duping them makes the run slower, as is normally the case), as long as you collect every other missile tank/gold skulltula/secret package/whatever on top of that. If for some reason you want to complete a VC mission 17 times, we don't care as long as every other mission is also completed. That is our criteria when judging 100% completion for any game, as it has always been.
I'm unable to properly comment on the GTA SA burgulary mission question, but to me it sounds like the run we have is incomplete.
The GTA community actively uses speedrun.com as their hub for leaderboards (even arbitrary categories like 100 packages), strategy discussion, guides, saves, marathon hosting, etc., and has hardly anything to do with SDA any more. Nevertheless, there hasn't been any movement at all there with regards to this 100% run. Has there really been a serious "community redefinition" of the 100% category or is this a lot of chain yanking?
Totally rad
The criteria for what constitutes a completed mission are irrelevant in 100%?
Please let me know when you've actually put some thought into your post.
Eidgod has submitted various runs to SDA recently - including this one. And for your information, one of the first things we had a lengthy discussion about once the duping glitch was found were the implications for 100%.
Please let me know when you've actually put some thought into your post.
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and has hardly anything to do with SDA any more.
Eidgod has submitted various runs to SDA recently - including this one. And for your information, one of the first things we had a lengthy discussion about once the duping glitch was found were the implications for 100%.
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Quote from AdamAK:
The criteria for what constitutes a completed mission are irrelevant in 100%?
Please let me know when you've actually put some thought into your post.
Please let me know when you've actually put some thought into your post.
Did I say that?
I'm sure I said that nullifying mission completion by restarting the mission during the completion process should be avoided. (due to time loss from having to recomplete the mission, obviously)
If it doesn't nullify mission completion, then it's a non-issue as the criteria has been fulfilled and the mission is complete.
Please let me know when you've actually read my post properly.
Totally rad
Quote from ShadowWraith:
I'm sure I said that nullifying mission completion by restarting the mission during the completion process should be avoided. (due to time loss from having to recomplete the mission, obviously)
If it doesn't nullify mission completion, then it's a non-issue as the criteria has been fulfilled and the mission is complete.
If it doesn't nullify mission completion, then it's a non-issue as the criteria has been fulfilled and the mission is complete.
Except that you've left out the important part where this 'nullification' is actually defined. So basically, you haven't answered anything.
Can a 100% run be completed whilst being in the middle of a core mission? Can a 100% run be completed with essential, uncollected mission items lying around?
I'll repeat myself here, in case you missed it the first time.
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Please let me know when you've actually put some thought into your post.
It might help if you actually knew the game you're talking and deciding about to the same extent as, say, the actual runners.
Totally rad
I'm pointing out the issue with letting uninformed SDA staff not only decide on category definitions, but also go against what is defined by the actual running community.
Would you still have submitted your Risk of Rain run if SDA had made an arbitrary decision (in contrast with the community definition) on what the category has to be (by, e.g., banning several core items from your route)? I'm sure you would've been thrilled by it!
Would you still have submitted your Risk of Rain run if SDA had made an arbitrary decision (in contrast with the community definition) on what the category has to be (by, e.g., banning several core items from your route)? I'm sure you would've been thrilled by it!
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Quote from AdamAK:
Quote from ShadowWraith:
I'm sure I said that nullifying mission completion by restarting the mission during the completion process should be avoided. (due to time loss from having to recomplete the mission, obviously)
If it doesn't nullify mission completion, then it's a non-issue as the criteria has been fulfilled and the mission is complete.
If it doesn't nullify mission completion, then it's a non-issue as the criteria has been fulfilled and the mission is complete.
Except that you've left out the important part where this 'nullification' is actually defined. So basically, you haven't answered anything.
Can a 100% run be completed whilst being in the middle of a core mission? Can a 100% run be completed with essential, uncollected mission items lying around?
I figured the definition of nullification in this case would be evident based on the context it was originally used in. Apologies.
In this case, nullification would reset the game to a state where you are treated as not having completed the mission at all; you are unable to progress to the next part of the chain if one exists, and further progress in the game is impossible until the mission is completed again.
Regarding the other questions you had about the 100% definition, I would posit that it would be impossible to complete the run itself while criteria for completing the run have not been met.
I will however not argue the details of what completing a mission actually entails, as that is both dependant on what the mission requires, and additionally it is entirely pointless from my point of view. If for some reason there existed a glitch in the game that allowed you to complete a mission and move on to the next one instantly that was possible to do for every mission, I would accept that as a valid submission as a separate category, since all missions are being completed even if their individual criteria is not being met. For an example, see the firefighter side-mission-thing-whatever from GTA3.
Quote from AdamAK:
I'll repeat myself here, in case you missed it the first time.
It might help if you actually knew the game you're talking and deciding about to the same extent as, say, the actual runners.
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Please let me know when you've actually put some thought into your post.
It might help if you actually knew the game you're talking and deciding about to the same extent as, say, the actual runners.
I generally only attempt to make case-by-case decisions on individual games when they are necessary. In this case, it is not necessary as your question does not assist us in formulating a definition for the game.
I wouldn't have blamed SDA for removing my Vanilla% run after accepting my Any%, considering it's now an arbitrary category. I'm also not going to submit an Any% 1.2.2 run for its potential arbitrary nature.
I have a basic understanding of SDA's goals. I submit runs that benefit to it. I don't submit runs that don't.
I have a basic understanding of SDA's goals. I submit runs that benefit to it. I don't submit runs that don't.
Get over here!
So since I'm the only verifier not included in the post here's my decision for this "run". It's a clear reject. Based on the information I had at the time coming from noone else but Adam that this glitch wouldn't find any valid use outside the any% category. The main reason why this submission was segmented is because the duping messes up the game so much that it actually becomes very crash heavy. And as a few others already stated it didn't complete the game. This is more a proof that it can be done than an actual speedrun.
Totally rad
It is possible to trigger the final story mission of the game twice, with the right setup. There is no further chain of events. Which one counts as actually completing the game?
So why exactly were you verifying this run if you're not actually familiar with the game or run? And I'm very curious where you got that very limited information from. Perhaps the very first day when the glitch was found?
If you run up stairs in TekWar, the game is more likely to crash. Speedrunning strats clearly making the game less reliable. Does that mean that it somehow not a speedrun? Non sequitur at its finest.
It's not about removing existing runs. It would be more like you submitting a run that, to your knowledge, fulfills SDA's requirements, gets accepted by all verifiers, but then gets rejected by SDA staff for an arbitrary reason that you and other runners don't agree with.
Quote from ShadowDraft:
Based on the information I had at the time coming from noone else but Adam that this glitch wouldn't find any valid use outside the any% category.
So why exactly were you verifying this run if you're not actually familiar with the game or run? And I'm very curious where you got that very limited information from. Perhaps the very first day when the glitch was found?
Quote from ShadowDraft:
SThe main reason why this submission was segmented is because the duping messes up the game so much that it actually becomes very crash heavy. And as a few others already stated it didn't complete the game.
If you run up stairs in TekWar, the game is more likely to crash. Speedrunning strats clearly making the game less reliable. Does that mean that it somehow not a speedrun? Non sequitur at its finest.
Quote from Onin:
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It's not about removing existing runs. It would be more like you submitting a run that, to your knowledge, fulfills SDA's requirements, gets accepted by all verifiers, but then gets rejected by SDA staff for an arbitrary reason that you and other runners don't agree with.
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Quote from AdamAK:
It is possible to trigger the final story mission of the game twice, with the right setup. There is no further chain of events. Which one counts as actually completing the game?
If you want me to answer this question, first tell me whether there would be -any- benefit whatsoever to the run to do this. I don't particularly want to sit here debating semantics that are ultimately meaningless to the run itself.
Quote from AdamAK:
Quote from Onin:
-snip-
It's not about removing existing runs. It would be more like you submitting a run that, to your knowledge, fulfills SDA's requirements, gets accepted by all verifiers, but then gets rejected by SDA staff for an arbitrary reason that you and other runners don't agree with.
It's not an arbitrary reason. Precedent has been set many times, as has been stated already. You have to collect every gold skulltula even if you can get the reward for collecting 100 by duping them in Ocarina of Time. You have to collect every item in Metroid Prime 2 even if you can get 100% while skipping one by duping another. Thus, it follows that you have to complete every mission in Vice City even if you can get 100% mission completing by duping a single mission completion's percentage bump.
However, since the argument for the category isn't that it gets 100% mission completion but that it gets the reward for doing so without actually completing all missions, then this is an incredibly arbitrary goal for a speedrun. Far too arbitrary to warrant us giving it a separate category.
If we're piggybacking the support of this run on the existance of the Metroid Prime frigate escape run category and the Mario 64 slide race whatever category, those also do not complete the game and if they did not exist but had runs submitted now, those runs would be rejected, though I would argue that both of those run categories have more grounds for acceptance than this one.
In fact, we were supposed to remove the NTSC Frigate Escape run category entirely as it has been beaten by Miles' 0:56 single-segment run. We just never got around to it.
Quote from LLCoolDave:
The 'new' definition of 100% in Vice City should, unless there's a strong reason to diverge from that, just match the goals that needed to be achieved in the 'old' category. This includes picking up each packet, doing each super jump, completing each unique mission, doing the side missions that are tracked etc. Basically just achieving each unique subgoal that can increase the completion counter in the game. We're not disagreeing with the game's (and as a result, the community's, before this dupe glitch) definition of what constitutes full completion of the game, all we are noting is that since the game can be compelled to count the same achievement multiple times, that the numerical counter is no longer reliable and should thus not be used as the base of the definition.
I find this ironic, because already SDA is not doing this. The game doesn't reward % until after the credits/final cutscene have played, therefore the community has decided that waiting through the credits is an inherent part of 100%. Yet SDA doesn't include the credits in the timing.
This put CannibalK9 at a disadvantage to Silmaranza in their GTA3 100% runs, because Silmaranza got rewarded a random ~2 minutes despite not having achieved 100% yet. (Granted, it didn't matter in the end because Silmaranza was significantly quicker anyway)
This also forced MrGamerDerek to change the last few segments of his San Andreas 100% run (which he later pulled because of video issues) so that he could gain an arbitrary 5 minutes by doing the credits last, despite not having achieved 100% yet. This at the cost of having to make a drive of shame from Las Venturas Airport Depot back to Grove Street, despite his planning working out nicely without SDA interfering.
Heck, with some bad luck/planning, you can die of starvation after the credits finished in SA, but before the % gets rewarded, failing the mission and losing you a significant amount of time for having to redo.
You say you're not disagreeing with the game's (and as a result, the community's) definition of what constitutes full completion of the game, but it doesn't show in the timing of the 100% runs and even forced one runner to redo part of his run.
Totally rad
Quote from Onin:
It didn't get rejected for arbitrary reason. It got rejected because it doesn't complete the game and therefore isn't a speedrun. Discussion about potential arbitrariness is only a sidenote to the actual verification.
Except it's very arbitrary. Check Flip's post, and it'll say that the condition for the run is to get game-defined 100% (i.e., have 100% in the stats menu). That was accomplished. Now the run is being rejected, but no suitable alternative definition has been proposed.
Until an actual valid definition is provided that (1) the current run does not satisfy; (2) clearly states precisely what conditions must be met for the run to count as 100%, the rejection is arbitrary and unfounded. Stating the conditions involves, for instance, listing what items must be collected, what missions must be completed, but also when these missions count as completed.
Quote from ShadowWraith:
If you want me to answer this question, first tell me whether there would be -any- benefit whatsoever to the run to do this. I don't particularly want to sit here debating semantics that are ultimately meaningless to the run itself.
This would involve letting Tommy die, which would teleport you to the nearest hospital. You could then proceed to do Paramedic as the last part of the 100% run, since you'd be incredibly close to an ambulance.
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Quote from AdamAK:
This would involve letting Tommy die, which would teleport you to the nearest hospital. You could then proceed to do Paramedic as the last part of the 100% run, since you'd be incredibly close to an ambulance.
Interesting route. This saves time over skipping Paramedic up to this point and missing out on infinite sprint?
Totally rad
Does Mother Brain contribute to the percentage counter? Does the relevant Metroid game's community say that Mother Brain is necessary or relevant? Wasn't there an RPG example a few pages back that excluded certain bosses from 100% because of skips?
If the goal of the run is 100% and Mother Brain isn't part of its definition, then the run you just described certainly did reach 100% and is valid as such.
If the goal of the run is 100% and Mother Brain isn't part of its definition, then the run you just described certainly did reach 100% and is valid as such.