Grand Theft Auto: Vice City - October 26, 2014

AdamAK

Edit history:

AdamAK: 2014-10-27 07:41:26 pm

2014-10-27 07:37:46 pm

Totally rad

Quote from TheMG2:

Then why couldn't you have said that rather then accepting a run based on an outdated ruleset?

Then why didn't you realise that the SDA definition was flawed and incomplete rather than being a random non-GTA-runner in a GTA-discussion?
By the way, I already posted about changing the SDA definition on page 2. I'd say that's pretty early on.

Quote from S.:

This definition does not cover potential hidden package duping, as it is programmed to give % when the counter reaches increments of 10, not when 10 packages have been picked up.

Good point. Should definitely include that. Is the same necessary for SSA?

TheMG2

2014-10-27 07:40:38 pm

There is a thread for 100%/low% definitions that you already mentioned. Why couldn't one of you have posted in it rather then submit a run? There are more effective ways of getting things done.

ShadowWraith

2014-10-27 07:40:50 pm

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Quote from AdamAK:

That's exactly what I was asking. Is it, according to SDA, completed or not?

Hm. Hard to say. I'd say that it is not permanently completed, while having technically been completed from the game's point of view. Would you agree? Would you be in agreement that stating, as a requirement, that all non-repeatable missions must be permanently completed (i.e not death glitched) in order to not leave a gray area in the definition?

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-27 07:41:08 pm

Not a walrus

Is there any reason "game-defined (no objective duping)" wouldn't suffice with currently known information?

Gaël

2014-10-27 07:44:43 pm

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

Is there any reason "game-defined (no objective duping)" wouldn't suffice with currently known information?

this isn't good because "jury fury" is being duped anyway because it's faster

TheMG2

2014-10-27 07:46:05 pm

So in other words, its exactly like the other definitions of 100% of other games with duping? Like Metroid Prime 2?

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-27 07:46:26 pm

Not a walrus

So, you'd, what, end up with 101% or something? Why is it faster to dupe that one in particular?

S.

2014-10-27 07:48:38 pm

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

So, you'd, what, end up with 101% or something? Why is it faster to dupe that one in particular?

Duping Jury Fury spawns the cars you're supposed to blow up inside each other, causing them to blow each other up therefore requiring 0 effort on the player's end.
The counter doesn't count past 100%, so you would be at 101%, but it'd still say 100% (even if it would count past 100%, it'd still round down to 100%)

AdamAK

2014-10-27 07:48:41 pm

Totally rad

Quote from ShadowWraith:

Hm. Hard to say. I'd say that it is not permanently completed, while having technically been completed from the game's point of view. Would you agree? Would you be in agreement that stating, as a requirement, that all non-repeatable missions must be permanently completed (i.e not death glitched) in order to not leave a gray area in the definition?

I'd go for the technical completion of the mission, since you could just glitch the game into making a previously non-repeatable mission repeatable. Cherry Poppers can be done repeatedly as well, but doing it once is sufficient for the game to internally consider it "completed".

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

So, you'd, what, end up with 101% or something? Why is it faster to dupe that one in particular?

You almost instantly pass the mission (which normally takes about 1:25 minutes) via a short trick. The goal of Jury Fury is to damage two cars. By starting the mission twice, the cars spawn on top of each other, flip over, and automatically take heavy damage, thereby making you pass the mission.

Quote from TheMG2:

So in other words, its exactly like the other definitions of 100% of other games with duping? Like Metroid Prime 2?

Vice City is a bit more complicated than Metroid Prime 2, so no, the definitions aren't the same.

[quote="ShadowWraith"]Hm. Hard to say. I'd say that it is not permanently completed, while having technically been completed from the game's point of view. Would you agree? Would you be in agreement that stating, as a requirement, that all non-repeatable missions must be permanently completed (i.e not death glitched) in order to not leave a gray area in the definition?[/quote]

I'd go for the technical completion of the mission, since you could just glitch the game into making a previously non-repeatable mission repeatable. Cherry Poppers can be done repeatedly as well, but doing it once is sufficient for the game to internally consider it "completed".

[quote="UraniumAnchor"]So, you'd, what, end up with 101% or something? Why is it faster to dupe that one in particular?[/quote]
You almost instantly pass the mission (which normally takes about 1:25 minutes) via a short trick. The goal of Jury Fury is to damage two cars. By starting the mission twice, the cars spawn on top of each other, flip over, and automatically take heavy damage, thereby making you pass the mission.

[quote="TheMG2"]So in other words, its exactly like the other definitions of 100% of other games with duping? Like Metroid Prime 2?[/quote]
Vice City is a bit more complicated than Metroid Prime 2, so no, the definitions aren't the same.

Gaël

Edit history:

Gaël: 2014-10-27 07:49:53 pm

2014-10-27 07:48:51 pm

duping the mission spawn 2 set of juror cars one on top of each other, which destroy them and pass the mission almost instantly.
it rewards you the % twice so you get the 100% rewards before completing every single objectives.
the stats in the menu never go over 100%

TheMG2

2014-10-27 07:49:52 pm

Its the same priniciple though. Dupe when it makes things faster, but not to do it instead of doing 100%.

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-27 07:50:20 pm

Not a walrus

What about "game-defined (all %-rewarding objectives completed at least once)", then?

AdamAK

2014-10-27 07:51:33 pm

Totally rad

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

What about "game-defined (all %-rewarding objectives completed at least once)", then?

But, as Gael said, once you reach 100% there's nothing left that adds to the percentage counter, so tons of objectives can be made non-%-rewarding objectives. Eidgod's run would still be valid under this definition.

ShadowWraith

Edit history:

ShadowWraith: 2014-10-27 07:54:14 pm

2014-10-27 07:52:57 pm

.

game-defined (all initial-state-one-time-completion-opportunity and initial-state-multiple-completion-opportunity objectives that would ordinarily grant %-rewards completed at least once)?

AdamAK

2014-10-27 07:57:09 pm

Totally rad

Getting closer to the definition I provided earlier. All that one needs is to mention that all unique packages must be picked up in the process.

Quote:

Complete every in-game activity that is internally programmed to contribute to the percentage counter before this counter has reached 100%. Should the counter be at 100% before every such activity is completed, the run is not yet completed. All unique packages must be collected at least once during the run. Completion is defined as the point in time where the percentage counter does or would increment as a result of the player's action.

TheMG2

2014-10-27 07:57:45 pm

Again, why did we need to go through the verification process to do this?

S.

Edit history:

S.: 2014-10-27 08:01:36 pm

S.: 2014-10-27 08:00:21 pm

2014-10-27 07:58:18 pm

Change the word 'packages' to 'collectables', since I could potentially also rob the same store 15 times, or do the Laser Guided Sniper Rifle rampage 35 times.

Also, your suggestion about SSA is complicated. Would handing in a landstalker 6 times count as completion of list 1? Would handing in a landstalker 24 times count as completion of all import lists? Would we define it as "complete the four lists/unlock the Hotring Racer" or "hand in all 24 cars"? I feel this is an issue to be ignored for the time being though and only to be brought up when we actually find a way to glitch SSA, which to me sounds a tenfold more unlikely than package duping.

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-27 07:58:53 pm

Not a walrus

We're not sticking a two line definition in the post.

Also MG2 I think that particular horse has been beaten enough.

ShadowWraith

2014-10-27 08:02:07 pm

.

Okay.

game defined (all initial-state-%-granting-objectives completed at least once, all discrete components of %-reward-granting-collectables lists collected at least once)

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-27 08:04:46 pm

Not a walrus

https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/100%25_Definitions

Does that suffice?

S.

Edit history:

S.: 2014-10-27 08:08:20 pm

S.: 2014-10-27 08:06:52 pm

S.: 2014-10-27 08:05:35 pm

2014-10-27 08:05:23 pm

I guess, but it applies to GTA3 too.

Actually no, because it doesn't take into consideration taxi fare duping. Although that could be seen as 'duping to make it faster', since the actual goal is to 'beat taxi driver', and not to 'do 100 fares'. Need someone else's input.

AdamAK

Edit history:

AdamAK: 2014-10-27 08:09:27 pm

2014-10-27 08:08:31 pm

Totally rad

There's no way the definition can be fit on a single line and be complete.

SSA and package duping are irrelevant right now, but it's better to have a definition that covers us against any future duping-style glitches than to have to update the definition frequently. "Initial state" is dodgy in SW's definition, since most activities aren't available from the game's initial state, nor do they necessarily give % once they become available.

Still leaves open the possibility that you complete one asset twice, but one of these completions replaces another asset. E.g., doing Printworks twice, but the game now counts Printworks and Film Studios as completed, so that you can't do any Film Studios missions any more. Basically needs another footnote line about what it means to complete objectives.

I'm still not sure whether taxi fare duping is considered "legit" or not by SDA right now, btw. More inclined to say that it's fine, since it's only the total number recorded that results in the % being added. Taxi fares are also not unique and repeatable.

There's no way the definition can be fit on a single line and be complete.

SSA and package duping are irrelevant right now, but it's better to have a definition that covers us against any future duping-style glitches than to have to update the definition frequently. "Initial state" is dodgy in SW's definition, since most activities aren't available from the game's initial state, nor do they necessarily give % once they become available.

Still leaves open the possibility that you complete one asset twice, but one of these completions replaces another asset. E.g., doing Printworks twice, but the game now counts Printworks and Film Studios as completed, so that you can't do any Film Studios missions any more. Basically needs another footnote line about what it means to complete objectives.

I'm still not sure whether taxi fare duping is considered "legit" or not by SDA right now, btw. More inclined to say that it's fine, since it's only the total number recorded that results in the % being added. Taxi fares are also not unique and repeatable.

S.

Edit history:

S.: 2014-10-27 08:12:25 pm

S.: 2014-10-27 08:12:01 pm

S.: 2014-10-27 08:11:20 pm

2014-10-27 08:10:59 pm

If SDA follows the community, then taxi fare duping is considered legit I'm expecting. As I mentioned, I prefer calling it "beat the taxi driver mission", as opposed to "do 100 fares", similar to how it is "beat firefighter", rather than "extinguish 78 fires in a row", and similar to how it is "Beat Jury Fury" instead of "Smash 2 cars".

UraniumAnchor

2014-10-27 08:12:46 pm

Not a walrus

Quote from AdamAK:

There's no way the definition can be fit on a single line and be complete.

I had forgotten that we had moved those lists to the KB anyway, so I just stuck it as a footnote for those two games rather than have a giant wall of text smack in the middle of the list.

The fares sound like they'd be still dupable, since it sounds like they respawn anyway? Do you just make them respawn faster?

S.

Edit history:

S.: 2014-10-27 08:14:48 pm

2014-10-27 08:14:15 pm

The way taxi fares work is that it picks a random pedestrian in the area, who you then have to give a taxiride to his destination. Upon completion of a fare, it will pick a new pedestrian to be driven

If you dupe the fares, the game will pick two pedestrians, and upon driving one of them, it will think you drove the both of them.