God Hand

2008-04-17 10:59:26 pm

Easy mode, single segment. Of course, that's with the possibly inaccurate clear-game timer, but my DVD recording of it shows 11 minutes left on a 2 hour DVD, so it's pretty close.

This run started great, with more orb cards dropping than I've ever seen before. I had a few flubs with side kick cancels due to lag (thanks scratched disc), a couple of poor boss fights, and an epic fuckup at Death Shudder. I think I can knock another 5 minutes off of this.

Notes on the in-game timer:
-The mission timer is totally accurate. It counts loading times but not the time spent on the save/continue screen.
-The game clear timer may or may not be accurate. I've found that not hammering on X while it's loading will help to make it more accurate.

Any thoughts on this run? I'm abusing the shit out of the flying tackle, high side kick cancels, mach speed jab (for easy guard breaks and dizzying), YMK, and the God Hand already.

Thread title:

[img]http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5217/ghclearfw7.jpg[/img]

Easy mode, single segment. Of course, that's with the possibly inaccurate clear-game timer, but my DVD recording of it shows 11 minutes left on a 2 hour DVD, so it's pretty close.

This run started great, with more orb cards dropping than I've ever seen before. I had a few flubs with side kick cancels due to lag (thanks scratched disc), a couple of poor boss fights, and an epic fuckup at Death Shudder. I think I can knock another 5 minutes off of this.

Notes on the in-game timer:
-The [i]mission[/i] timer is totally accurate. It counts loading times but not the time spent on the save/continue screen.
-The [i]game clear[/i] timer may or may not be accurate. I've found that not hammering on X while it's loading will help to make it more accurate.

Any thoughts on this run? I'm abusing the shit out of the flying tackle, high side kick cancels, mach speed jab (for easy guard breaks and dizzying), YMK, and the God Hand already.

Barrage

2008-04-18 03:12:51 pm

I'm looking forward to the run - will you be doing one on hard mode Grin

Enhasa

2008-04-19 09:08:43 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Marty, I'm really glad to see you running anything, actually.

Here is the old thread started by Ryman, just for reference. (Hmm, that thread is great because you can see lots of things that later went into the FAQ and translation motivation, heh.)

Marty81

2008-04-19 09:45:02 pm

Quote:

I'm looking forward to the run - will you be doing one on hard mode Grin

Uh, I'm not planning to. Hard is a totally different game from Easy.

Thanks for the link, Enhasa! I vaguely remember there being a previous thread, but I couldn't find it. I'll go check it out and compare it against my notes.

Enhasa

2008-04-19 10:10:11 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Yeah, the posted run is NG+, segmented, and normal though, so not sure how much help it is in the end.

sshplur

2008-08-06 09:35:51 am

Would a KMS run be a separate category?

Enhasa

2008-08-06 10:29:31 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

I know it's been asked, and maybe even someone said no before, but I actually don't see why not. (make sure Mike says yes though)

mikwuyma

2008-08-06 11:03:58 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

I don't even know what KMS mode is.

sshplur

2008-08-06 11:27:51 am

It's a challenge where you don't use the God Hand at all to keep the "Kick Me" sign (KMS) on your back, so no Roulette and no God Hand trigger/unleashed thing. A Japanese guy recently did a speed run of this on Hard mode in 1:50:07.

I think you can get away with using it in 1-1, though, because you don't get the sign until 1-2. So in a segmented run, you can use your 1-1 save to branch out into a KMS run. You still keep the sign, but I don't know if you'll be rewarded at the end, though.

Grinpill

2014-07-04 09:38:02 am

How do I jump?

Been planning to get into this for some time now. I had a conversation with somebody in the IRC channel last night (sorry, man, forgot your name) and we discussed some things about running this game. Since there isn't an organized running community, I have a few proposals:

Categories - Here's a few potential categories, and my opinion on them
Easy would be a run through the game on easy mode (duh) that allows use of the God Hand and Roulette Wheel.
Normal and Hard runs would have the same parameters.
(Difficulty) KMS omits the God Hand and Roulette Wheel for obvious reasons, but this category is so tedious and arguably boring that I can't see anybody bothering with it in the near future, if ever.
Equivalent of 100% would be collecting all Techniques, all Roulette scrolls, and purchasing all upgrades from the store. Again, kind of tedious, although this would be more achievable on Hard due to increased amounts of demons and overall more money.
(Difficulty) Original Moveset would mean no changes in Techniques and Roulette moves. This would involve not saving any villagers, as initial Roulette pickups would automatically be added to your wheel, although Olivia does give you one at the beginning of a chapter, so ...
50/51 Arena Challenges one can be done by the end of the first playthrough (50), the other only unlocks after completing the initial 50 on NG+ I believe (51).

As much as I (and probably any viewer) would prefer it, I don't see any logical reason to omit High Side Kick spam - even if it is boring as hell. It'll come down to the individual runner to decide if and when they use certain tactics, and to determine if using varied attacks for entertainment is worth the potential time loss of keeping an enemy locked down against a wall + steady high damage.

We talked about a New Game+ category, but there should probably be ground rules laid down there. Obviously the best choice in NG+ would be to use the God Techniques, but they are seriously so absurdly good that they make this game a joke. Even the scrubbiest player on Normal with even a few of those Techniques in their movelist is capable of breezing through the game, especially if used in conjunction with the God Hand (a single GH use with these moves will eat 70-80% of the boss' life, if not outright kill them). So if there are NG+ runs, I think God Techniques should be in a separate category, at the very least.

I don't know what the general SDA consensus is on single-segment vs segmented runs contributing to a "total" time is, but any stage/chapter/arena challenge done separately should not count toward a combined total time. Again, I don't know if that's the norm for segmented speedruns or not.

I'm hoping to get back into this over the next few days and shale off the rust and get some routing hammered out. I hope others will join me.

Been planning to get into this for some time now. I had a conversation with somebody in the IRC channel last night (sorry, man, forgot your name) and we discussed some things about running this game. Since there isn't an organized running community, I have a few proposals:

[b]Categories[/b] - Here's a few potential categories, and my opinion on them
[i]Easy[/i] would be a run through the game on easy mode (duh) that allows use of the God Hand and Roulette Wheel.
[i]Normal[/i] and [i]Hard[/i] runs would have the same parameters. 
[i](Difficulty) KMS[/i] omits the God Hand and Roulette Wheel for obvious reasons, but this category is so tedious and arguably boring that I can't see anybody bothering with it in the near future, if ever. 
[i]Equivalent of 100%[/i] would be collecting all Techniques, all Roulette scrolls, and purchasing all upgrades from the store. Again, kind of tedious, although this would be more achievable on Hard due to increased amounts of demons and overall more money. 
[i](Difficulty) Original Moveset[/i] would mean no changes in Techniques and Roulette moves. This would involve not saving any villagers, as initial Roulette pickups would automatically be added to your wheel, although Olivia does give you one at the beginning of a chapter, so ...
[i]50/51 Arena Challenges[/i] one can be done by the end of the first playthrough (50), the other only unlocks after completing the initial 50 on NG+ I believe (51).

As much as I (and probably any viewer) would prefer it, I don't see any logical reason to omit High Side Kick spam - even if it is boring as hell. It'll come down to the individual runner to decide if and when they use certain tactics, and to determine if using varied attacks for entertainment is worth the potential time loss of keeping an enemy locked down against a wall + steady high damage.

We talked about a [i]New Game+[/i] category, but there should probably be ground rules laid down there. Obviously the best choice in NG+ would be to use the God Techniques, but they are seriously so absurdly good that they make this game a joke. Even the scrubbiest player on Normal with even a few of those Techniques in their movelist is capable of breezing through the game, especially if used in conjunction with the God Hand (a single GH use with these moves will eat 70-80% of the boss' life, if not outright kill them). So if there are NG+ runs, I think God Techniques should be in a separate category, at the very least.

I don't know what the general SDA consensus is on single-segment vs segmented runs contributing to a "total" time is, but any stage/chapter/arena challenge done separately should not count toward a combined total time. Again, I don't know if that's the norm for segmented speedruns or not.

I'm hoping to get back into this over the next few days and shale off the rust and get some routing hammered out. I hope others will join me.

Molotov

2014-07-04 03:15:26 pm

I disagree with some of the categories you listed. I'm not sure there should be even be a 100%. If there was one, it would probably just be all arena challenges. Collecting every technique and roulette would be silly, because it wouldn't be much different than "collect one of every item" in RPGs. Collecting all of those adds nothing to the run. Completing all the arena challenges means completing all of the optional stuff that would otherwise be skipped, so I think it's the best option for 100%.

Original moveset runs are kind of neat, but wouldn't make it here. Going back to the RPG comparison, it would be like a low-level run. Neat to try, but not a valid category on SDA. The restriction is arbitrary, so you could just as well argue for God Foot runs or something like that. Kick Me Sign is the only real option, because it's a challenge that the game recognizes. Completing the game with only the starting moveset doesn't give you anything.

Entertainment decisions have no place when running this game, unfortunately. The only thing that matters is how quickly the enemies die, so if someone purposely ignores High Side Kick cancels, that run will be an easy reject. In the same way, New Game+ is its own category, and won't be divided based on techniques. Entertainment is subjective anyway, so it doesn't mean anything here. Personally, I don't hate New Game+ with strong moves. Others disagree, but it makes no difference. If it's faster, that's all that matters.

As for timing, anything you do between starting the run and completing it will count against you. For example, it would be ridiculous to allow a New Game+ player to grind all kinds of money after 1-1, and then just pretend the final time was amazing. The old timing method was to add up stage times (since those are accurate) and then manually time stage 9, but that's not how it works anymore. I'm pretty sure the method now is just to real-time the whole darn thing until Angra dies, so you can be sure arena and shop visits will count against you.

Also, we should take this to Redlimit's old topic. It has more planning and strategy discussion. His run was on Easy, but it's still more useful than this topic.

I disagree with some of the categories you listed. I'm not sure there should be even be a 100%. If there was one, it would probably just be all arena challenges. Collecting every technique and roulette would be silly, because it wouldn't be much different than "collect one of every item" in RPGs. Collecting all of those adds nothing to the run. Completing all the arena challenges means completing all of the optional stuff that would otherwise be skipped, so I think it's the best option for 100%.

Original moveset runs are kind of neat, but wouldn't make it here. Going back to the RPG comparison, it would be like a low-level run. Neat to try, but not a valid category on SDA. The restriction is arbitrary, so you could just as well argue for God Foot runs or something like that. Kick Me Sign is the only real option, because it's a challenge that the game recognizes. Completing the game with only the starting moveset doesn't give you anything.

Entertainment decisions have no place when running this game, unfortunately. The only thing that matters is how quickly the enemies die, so if someone purposely ignores High Side Kick cancels, that run will be an easy reject. In the same way, New Game+ is its own category, and won't be divided based on techniques. Entertainment is subjective anyway, so it doesn't mean anything here. Personally, I don't hate New Game+ with strong moves. Others disagree, but it makes no difference. If it's faster, that's all that matters.

As for timing, anything you do between starting the run and completing it will count against you. For example, it would be ridiculous to allow a New Game+ player to grind all kinds of money after 1-1, and then just pretend the final time was amazing. The old timing method was to add up stage times (since those are accurate) and then manually time stage 9, but that's not how it works anymore. I'm pretty sure the method now is just to real-time the whole darn thing until Angra dies, so you can be sure arena and shop visits will count against you.

Also, we should take this to Redlimit's old topic. It has more planning and strategy discussion. His run was on Easy, but it's still more useful than this topic.

Grinpill

2014-07-04 04:43:08 pm

How do I jump?

Should have a mod just merge the topics.

The categories I mentioned were just suggestions, obviously I am not the spokesperson for this or any other game. However, I'm not so sure HSK spam is the end all be all for completing the game quickly. Surely it'll have its uses, but I'm hoping there will be alternatives that prove to be just as effective (especially considering when High Side Kick 2 & 3 become available).

Redlimit

2014-07-05 07:34:27 am

The kick cancels eventually do wear out their usefulness, but they are absolutely invaluable for the first few stages where you have no other way of dealing damage that quickly.

As far as runs go, you really only have two options - segmented with as much manipulation as possible (lots of orb drops, optimal kills, etc) or single segment with pure speed in mind. Both are actually pretty challenging for this game. I opted to go with the segmented version but It is shelved for the time being on the "You. Me. Pattycake." out of bounds skip. I got a new job and now have a newborn son so it could be a very long time before I'm able to pick up the run again (if ever). Molotov and I have a lot of strategy in my old thread - these can be merged or you can just pick up posting in that instead as it has all of the video links and strat lists.

flicky

2014-07-05 08:04:22 am

$15 per rant/allegory

If people are actively running this, can you message me? We're trying to create a Platinum/Clover community and God Hand has a place there. We're hopefully planning a mini marathon with all the games back to back.

Grinpill

2014-07-05 08:06:45 pm

How do I jump?

I don't know what the deal is - if it's my PS2, my copy of God Hand, or what - but I cannot get out of bounds. I've checked around various areas, but more specifically the Iron Bridge Fashion Show or whatever level.

sshplur

2014-07-06 05:10:21 pm

Is that the level with the 3 stompy squishy things? Last I heard it was random. I think Molotov said it took him a hundred tries or something before the game finally let him through.

With the original moveset category did you mean not upgrading them also? I tried a low% playthrough and it took days to even knock out the face doors on chapter 4.

Grinpill

2014-07-06 06:12:05 pm

How do I jump?

I don't know what every run looks like, but the few I've seen (including AGDQ) had the player killing every enemy. In the first area of the game you may need to kill as few as 7 (three beating up villager, the one that turns into a demon+his demon form, the two dudes at the table, and only the little guy that drops through the ceiling) in order for the doors to open and then you can just run to the exit. Second area (after getting KMS) you need only kill the skinny guy and one of the fat dudes in order to have the lift come down.

Some areas are more obvious, as they have rosaries to collect in order to progress, but I'm curious to test and see how many areas can be bypassed entirely.

Redlimit

2014-07-06 06:32:03 pm

I suggest starting with the videos I have in the old thread: https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/god_hand__run_planning__segmented_strategy_with_videos.html

I kill only the minimum requirement for each area and in several cases there are easier / better positioned enemies to kill that are not obvious (a good example is in 1-3 where it is better to duck into the bar and take an enemy out inside it rather than some of the guys you see at the start who are already outside because it is faster and less random to do so).

Grinpill

2014-07-06 06:40:03 pm

How do I jump?

I tried to watch them already, but I can't see them (I'm on an iPhone, hurr). Any chance you could post just the links, or tell me what your YT account is?

Molotov

Edit history:

Molotov: 2014-07-06 07:49:27 pm

2014-07-06 07:45:22 pm

Quote from Grinpill:

I don't know what the deal is - if it's my PS2, my copy of God Hand, or what - but I cannot get out of bounds. I've checked around various areas, but more specifically the Iron Bridge Fashion Show or whatever level.

I've never managed to go out of bounds in 1-4, but admittedly, I haven't tried very hard (since it's apparently useless for a run). The 4-5 clip is timing-based, but I don't know the exact timing. I've gotten it a few times by just sidestepping at regular intervals until the game loads, but that's hardly a reliable method. When I mentioned 4-6 (Iron Bridge Fashion Show), that was just a hunch. I've never heard of that being a spot you can go out of bounds in, but it just seems so much like 4-5 that I wonder about it.

Quote from Grinpill:

I don't know what every run looks like, but the few I've seen (including AGDQ) had the player killing every enemy. In the first area of the game you may need to kill as few as 7 (three beating up villager, the one that turns into a demon+his demon form, the two dudes at the table, and only the little guy that drops through the ceiling) in order for the doors to open and then you can just run to the exit.

You need 13 kills in 1-1. You need to kill 12 regular guys and the demon for the door to open. Velari tested this a long time ago, and the official guidebook says the same thing. [Edit]: Er, I thought it did. I just looked and I don't see anything about that. Not sure why I thought it mentioned it. It says something about 9, but I can't read it. Sad

Quote:

Second area (after getting KMS) you need only kill the skinny guy and one of the fat dudes in order to have the lift come down.

Only the fat guy is necessary. Taking down one of them causes the lift to trigger.

Quote from flicky:

If people are actively running this, can you message me? We're trying to create a Platinum/Clover community and God Hand has a place there. We're hopefully planning a mini marathon with all the games back to back.

I don't actively run the game, but I might be interested in this idea. How soon are you thinking about doing this? I'd like to eventually be good enough for fresh Hard Kick Me Sign, but I haven't had any motivation for that kind of torture yet.

[quote="Grinpill"]I don't know what the deal is - if it's my PS2, my copy of God Hand, or what - but I cannot get out of bounds. I've checked around various areas, but more specifically the Iron Bridge Fashion Show or whatever level. [/quote]
I've never managed to go out of bounds in 1-4, but admittedly, I haven't tried very hard (since it's apparently useless for a run). The 4-5 clip is timing-based, but I don't know the exact timing. I've gotten it a few times by just sidestepping at regular intervals until the game loads, but that's hardly a reliable method. When I mentioned 4-6 (Iron Bridge Fashion Show), that was just a hunch. I've never heard of that being a spot you can go out of bounds in, but it just seems so much like 4-5 that I wonder about it.

[quote="Grinpill"]I don't know what every run looks like, but the few I've seen (including AGDQ) had the player killing every enemy. In the first area of the game you may need to kill as few as 7 (three beating up villager, the one that turns into a demon+his demon form, the two dudes at the table, and only the little guy that drops through the ceiling) in order for the doors to open and then you can just run to the exit.[/quote]
You need 13 kills in 1-1. You need to kill 12 regular guys and the demon for the door to open. Velari tested this a long time ago, and the official guidebook says the same thing. [Edit]: Er, I thought it did. I just looked and I don't see anything about that. Not sure why I thought it mentioned it. It says something about 9, but I can't read it. :(

[quote]Second area (after getting KMS) you need only kill the skinny guy and one of the fat dudes in order to have the lift come down.[/quote]
Only the fat guy is necessary. Taking down one of them causes the lift to trigger.

[quote="flicky"]If people are actively running this, can you message me? We're trying to create a Platinum/Clover community and God Hand has a place there. We're hopefully planning a mini marathon with all the games back to back.[/quote]
I don't actively run the game, but I might be interested in this idea. How soon are you thinking about doing this? I'd like to eventually be good enough for fresh Hard Kick Me Sign, but I haven't had any motivation for that kind of torture yet.

sshplur

2014-07-06 08:15:54 pm

Quote from Molotov:

I'd like to eventually be good enough for fresh Hard Kick Me Sign, but I haven't had any motivation for that kind of torture yet.

Yooooooo what's up dude? Do you have a twitter account or something? I HAVE TO KNOW WHEN THIS RUN HAPPENS. ON STREAM <3

Grinpill

2014-07-06 08:27:47 pm

How do I jump?

Curious about KMS strats: how do you deal with the Mad Midget Five? It doesn't seem like you could effectively combat them without God Hand/Roulette, as I can only seem to juggle a maximum of three at a time - assuming I even get them all that close together.

sshplur

2014-07-06 08:52:13 pm

It's a massive roll of the dice. The basic strat is to let them lunge at you, dodge back, -->+triangle to bounce them up and then uppercut them to death. The luck comes in with the others running into the uppercut before they hit you. From there it's just timing your uppercuts right so you don't juggle them too high.

It's a nightmare to get, even on easy mode.

Grinpill

2014-07-06 11:16:53 pm

How do I jump?

I got some mileage out of jab > straight > uppercut > mach speed jab to keep a small juggle going until more gathered, then hitting with Kung Fu Tango (Arena fight). In a run, I don't know what would be a good replacement. KFT can stun and allow you to follow up with a stake driver, so some other multi-hit Roulette move would do, I imagine. Locking down with roundhouse spam worked pretty well, too. Couldn't get any real V+triangle uppercuts going.

Also, I won't be able to do anything but practice on this PS2. Spamming high side kick against a wall does not agree with this PS2, and it freezes momentarily randomly. Not just drops frames or stutters, straight up freezes. Longest one so far lasted a solid 3 seconds, ugh.

sshplur

2014-07-06 11:25:01 pm

The freezing is a problem with American and Japanese versions of the game iirc. It's no problem on PAL if you play in 50hz. It's still there intact in the PSN versions, sadly. I'll play around with 60hz on PAL to see if it's just 60fps fucking up the HSKs.