GDQ Runner/Commentator Audio Q&A

Cool Matty

Edit history:

Cool Matty: 2014-07-20 12:35:00 pm

2014-07-20 12:06:58 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Q&A for GDQ Audio

The purpose of this thread is to get feedback on potential options for future GDQs as they relate to runners and commentators.

We are floating several ideas, and would love input on each.

Headsets

http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/656153.jpg

We're considering something like this for runners and commentators at the next AGDQ. This would be the most comprehensive and simple solution. It solves most problems and has acceptable audio quality. That said, they're clearly bulky.

In the headphones, runners/commentators can have:

1. Game Audio
2. Themselves (for those unaware, this makes it a lot less weird to wear headsets)
3. Fellow commentators
4. Host
5. Crowd
6. Tech (when they use the mic)

Those are the options, and then you all can decide what you'd actually want to hear.

Extra Question:

This would only apply to races, but would racers be bothered if their game audio was summed to mono? This would drastically reduce the complication for tech setup. This would only apply to races, normal runs would be stereo.

Earsets

http://www.rainbowguitars.com/imagesproduct/cu/cue6ow5l2sl-xl.jpg
The next option is small headsets, like the one we had at SGDQ.

We'll get a stiffer one that will be easier to wear, but ultimately, runners/commentators will likely be required to put these on properly.

On the upside, these offer by far the best voice quality, and you don't have to wear big headphones. However, you will have to have the preamp in your lap.

I know some runners liked it, and some didn't, so I'm curious on the thoughts for this.

Standing Mics/Shotgun Mics

This would harken back to AGDQ2013 style of audio. It will be far more difficult to properly capture people (particularly those who speak quietly) but will have no setup for runners/commentators. This also has the highest chance for feedback, so it will be more difficult to get high levels of audio in the room for the audience. Basically, this is the highest convenience/comfort, in exchange for the worst audio quality.

In the end, I want to know what you'd prefer, ideally using past experience from our events if you have it. Any comments on how we work things? Would runners/commentators be interested in a pre-marathon orientation to help ensure you get the best audio? Unfortunately we still don't quite have the manpower to help everyone put their mics on after every event, but education is an option.

We will use the information to help in our final decision. (Also you'll note that lavs aren't an option. I didn't forget them.)

Thread title:

[size="22"]Q&A for GDQ Audio[/size]

The purpose of this thread is to get feedback on potential options for future GDQs as they relate to runners and commentators.

We are floating several ideas, and would love input on each.

[size="18"]Headsets[/size]

http://static.bhphoto.com/images/images500x500/656153.jpg

We're considering something like this for runners and commentators at the next AGDQ. This would be the most comprehensive and simple solution. It solves most problems and has acceptable audio quality. That said, they're clearly bulky.

In the headphones, runners/commentators can have:

1. Game Audio
2. Themselves (for those unaware, this makes it a lot less weird to wear headsets)
3. Fellow commentators
4. Host
5. Crowd
6. Tech (when they use the mic)

Those are the options, and then you all can decide what you'd actually want to hear.

[b]Extra Question:[/b]

This would only apply to races, but would racers be bothered if their game audio was summed to mono? This would drastically reduce the complication for tech setup. This would only apply to races, normal runs would be stereo.

[size="18"]Earsets[/size]

http://www.rainbowguitars.com/imagesproduct/cu/cue6ow5l2sl-xl.jpg
The next option is small headsets, like the one we had at SGDQ.

We'll get a stiffer one that will be easier to wear, but ultimately, runners/commentators will likely be required to put these on properly.

On the upside, these offer by far the best voice quality, and you don't have to wear big headphones. However, you will have to have the preamp in your lap.

I know some runners liked it, and some didn't, so I'm curious on the thoughts for this.

[size="18"]Standing Mics/Shotgun Mics[/size]

This would harken back to AGDQ2013 style of audio. It will be far more difficult to properly capture people (particularly those who speak quietly) but will have no setup for runners/commentators. This also has the highest chance for feedback, so it will be more difficult to get high levels of audio in the room for the audience. Basically, this is the highest convenience/comfort, in exchange for the worst audio quality.

In the end, I want to know what you'd prefer, ideally using past experience from our events if you have it. Any comments on how we work things? Would runners/commentators be interested in a pre-marathon orientation to help ensure you get the best audio? Unfortunately we still don't quite have the manpower to help everyone put their mics on after every event, but education is an option.

We will use the information to help in our final decision. (Also you'll note that lavs aren't an option. I didn't forget them.)

Laplacier

2014-07-20 12:14:53 pm

StarSong Hype

I'm more of a headphones guy so out of the three proposed here I'm more keen towards the first option. I'd be afraid of breaking the second option and I'd probably mess up during a run knowing I have a small fragile microphone on my head.

Omnigamer

2014-07-20 12:32:51 pm

All the things

I'm not sure how I'd feel about a full headset since I don't regularly use one, but a thought that occurs to me is for longer games. It's fine for some that last only 30 minutes or so, but on the occasional games that last 2+ hours I can see it being uncomfortable. Still not sure what I'd prefer overall though.

Brossentia

2014-07-20 12:37:54 pm

No pain, no gain

I'm liking the improvement in sound quality that we're hearing over the course of the marathons. I wasn't a huge fan of the mic this year; I'm fine wearing it, but it was easy to get a cord caught on something. I was terrified of breaking the thing. If we found a good way to keep cords from getting twisted up, then it would be fine.

I personally dig headsets. They can get tiring with longer runs, though. My runs are usually, like, 2 minutes, so it's not a huge deal for me.

The one benefit of having standing/shotgun mics is that they capture the audience much better. I still prefer the boost in audio quality, but I wonder if there's any good solution to getting the audience's reactions.

Cool Matty

2014-07-20 12:39:58 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

We have mics set up for audience reactions, they just haven't had a chance to balance properly because it was low priority. Don't worry about the audience, this is all about runner/commentary.

Darkwing Duck

2014-07-20 01:04:35 pm

Highly Evolved

Put me squarely in the group that does not want to wear a headset at a GDQ event. Live event with a live audience. Full encompassing headset gives the impression you want to drown that out. Full headset seems a bit tacky to me for this kind of event, especially if multiple people are wearing them.

UberGoose

2014-07-20 01:15:27 pm

I agree with others in that a full headset feels weird for a GDQ type event, however there are still issues with option 2 (though it would have the best audio quality). Mostly the issue with there apparently not being a strong understanding of how to handle them. Obviously that's not really the best thing to talk about in this thread but it's a consideration for sure.

Cool Matty

2014-07-20 01:29:59 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

I do want to point out two things for headsets:

1. You won't be isolated. Crowd will be heard in them via crowd mics (in fact, you'll probably hear them better).
2. The reason we're considering them at all is because they're impossible to wear incorrectly. It will simplify setup and require the least effort on the part of runners.

I do like the earsets personally, and they're not as fragile as they look (actually VERY durable), but they are much harder to wear. You have to have them worn correctly to be effective, which means runners/commentators will need education and discipline with regards to this.

Feel free to offer up any ideas you guys have though, I'm not biased against any one option at this point (except lavs).

AlecK47

2014-07-20 01:40:54 pm

I'm not a fan of headsets either, for pretty much exactly the reasons Brossentia and DW mentioned. Although I found the earpiece a bit awkward during my run, I would be open to a slightly more user friendly version that stays on the ear better. Shotgun mics are probably the worst option though, IMHO. If someone loud, say, spikevegeta were to commentate for a quiet runner (or vice versa) things could get messy.

StingerPA

2014-07-20 01:49:01 pm

I would probably prefer the headsets since I'm already used to wearing them for hours on end while streaming. With all the options to put into the audio, there shouldn't be any issues with not being able to hear the game/people/etc.. It would also make host/runner communication MUCH easier since the runner can hear exactly what the host is saying, no matter how loud the party next door is. The one thing I'd ask for is some additional padding on the headset to make sure it's comfortable for everyone.

Mono game audio wouldn't be a problem for me during races.

Tterraj42

2014-07-20 03:17:41 pm

Games!

Both option 1 and 2 sound good to me. For the earsets, runners could always be shown how to wear it and given time to adjust it by showing up early. I'd probably pick the headset personally, for optimal hearing.

Would it be possible to offer both? Or would that needlessly complicate tech / be a waste of funds?

ShadowDraft

2014-07-20 03:32:27 pm

Get over here!

I'm all for headsets honestly. I was kinda wondering why you guys wrote to bring our own headset for PC games and then nobody really used it. I would've preferred it actually as my Sennheiser is rarely beaten in audio quality. PC 360 G4ME if you want to look it up. It might be expensive but my current one is around 3 years old and so far works perfectly. I can also wear it for a long period of time without problems but that may be different for other people as I've always used headsets.

Horray for headsets!

Cool Matty

Edit history:

Cool Matty: 2014-07-20 03:39:23 pm

2014-07-20 03:38:50 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Tterraj42: Yeah it would be very complicated. Maybe a couple years from now we can offer that sort of option, but not for AGDQ at least.

Quote from ShadowDraft:

I'm all for headsets honestly. I was kinda wondering why you guys wrote to bring our own headset for PC games and then nobody really used it. I would've preferred it actually as my Sennheiser is rarely beaten in audio quality. PC 360 G4ME if you want to look it up. It might be expensive but my current one is around 3 years old and so far works perfectly. I can also wear it for a long period of time without problems but that may be different for other people as I've always used headsets.

Horray for headsets!

Yeah, the one pictured above beats that one handily actually Tongue

Vulajin

Edit history:

Vulajin: 2014-07-20 03:59:12 pm

2014-07-20 03:58:03 pm

My question about the earsets is, do we have a solution for runners/commentators to be able to clearly hear everything they need to hear (game audio, host, tech, etc.) with the earset?

(edit) Also can you clarify the reasoning behind phasing out the lavs? I can think of several reasons, but I'm mostly curious what your thought process is here.

TheBirdOfPrey

2014-07-20 04:05:44 pm

Headsets>Earsets>Standmics for me.

If i understand the headsets correctly, they can be filtered to block/allow for all of those audio options.

The biggest thing for me was that the audio was coming through speakers, and the audio through the speakers weren't the audio channels I actually needed to hear. I think headphones for the runner are a must.

The crowd and the couch area need to be able to hear the runner and the game audio and things, But the runner shouldn't need to hear themselves (this was my #1 issue, I could not hear host, couch or anything over the game audio and my own voice, because host and couch weren't coming through those speakers either at all, or not well enough for me to understand them) a Full on headset that allows personal runner sound would be a great improvement imo

Cool Matty

2014-07-20 04:54:46 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from Vulajin:

My question about the earsets is, do we have a solution for runners/commentators to be able to clearly hear everything they need to hear (game audio, host, tech, etc.) with the earset?

(edit) Also can you clarify the reasoning behind phasing out the lavs? I can think of several reasons, but I'm mostly curious what your thought process is here.

We will use speakers next to the TV for the main runner. Races will be ye olde tv audio. Effectively the same setup we used at SGDQ.

The speakers themselves actually weren't the problem, it was simply a matter of fighting feedback/echo. Headsets OR earsets would allow me to turn these speakers up much louder. Shotgun/standing mics would be far more difficult to work with.

As for lavs, I'm phasing them out simply because they have issues similar to the earset with none of the benefits. They get pulled off and worn incorrectly, and worse still, they have to be turned up fairly high gain to be useful. This creates an EXTREMELY difficult environment for me to work with. Earsets are similar (and in fact use the same preamp black cylinder), but the audio quality is MUCH superior, because the mic is directly next to your mouth.

In addition, because they got yanked like crazy, we were breaking/losing clips at an alarming rate. They're not free to replace.

We'll still have them around as backups, and we can use them for other scenarios, but I don't really like them anymore.

Quote from TheBirdOfPrey:

Headsets>Earsets>Standmics for me.

If i understand the headsets correctly, they can be filtered to block/allow for all of those audio options.

Yes, I can pick from the options I provided. Honestly, we'll probably want most/all of those, balanced appropriately.

Quote:

The biggest thing for me was that the audio was coming through speakers, and the audio through the speakers weren't the audio channels I actually needed to hear. I think headphones for the runner are a must.

The crowd and the couch area need to be able to hear the runner and the game audio and things, But the runner shouldn't need to hear themselves (this was my #1 issue, I could not hear host, couch or anything over the game audio and my own voice, because host and couch weren't coming through those speakers either at all, or not well enough for me to understand them) a Full on headset that allows personal runner sound would be a great improvement imo

For the speakers, no, we will not pipe the runner/commentary. The only reason the headset would provide this is because headsets block out sound really strongly (including your own voice). Hearing yourself in the headset isn't distracting at all, it actually makes it easier to talk. People who have been on host station should know how this works.

Host was inaudible because he was turned off on the speakers most of the event due to feedback issues. Sorry. I'm hoping to fix that here.

Couch audio wasn't piped through speakers because of feedback plus I didn't think it was necessary. After all, you're sitting right next to these guys, you should be able to hear them conversationally.

For those BEHIND the couch, it is intentional not to hear them. We purposefully don't mic them, because it can be distracting. Some runners complained about people's comments behind the couch even when they weren't mic'ed, I'd hate to have them mic'ed. That said, if feedback is really well under control, I can try an AGDQ2013-style setup for those behind the couch, and you all can give me your thoughts on that, but it's going to be low priority.

The crowd is mic'ed however, at a low level. If feedback isn't a concern (which again, I hope to have solved, thanks in part to this thread), I can turn the crowd up more.

If you all have any other questions, shoot.

[quote="Vulajin"]My question about the earsets is, do we have a solution for runners/commentators to be able to clearly hear everything they need to hear (game audio, host, tech, etc.) with the earset?

(edit) Also can you clarify the reasoning behind phasing out the lavs? I can think of several reasons, but I'm mostly curious what your thought process is here.[/quote]

We will use speakers next to the TV for the main runner. Races will be ye olde tv audio. Effectively the same setup we used at SGDQ.

The speakers themselves actually weren't the problem, it was simply a matter of fighting feedback/echo. Headsets OR earsets would allow me to turn these speakers up much louder. Shotgun/standing mics would be far more difficult to work with.

As for lavs, I'm phasing them out simply because they have issues similar to the earset with none of the benefits. They get pulled off and worn incorrectly, and worse still, they have to be turned up fairly high gain to be useful. This creates an EXTREMELY difficult environment for me to work with. Earsets are similar (and in fact use the same preamp black cylinder), but the audio quality is MUCH superior, because the mic is directly next to your mouth.

In addition, because they got yanked like crazy, we were breaking/losing clips at an alarming rate. They're not free to replace.

We'll still have them around as backups, and we can use them for other scenarios, but I don't really like them anymore.

[quote="TheBirdOfPrey"]Headsets>Earsets>Standmics for me.

If i understand the headsets correctly, they can be filtered to block/allow for all of those audio options.
[/quote]

Yes, I can pick from the options I provided. Honestly, we'll probably want most/all of those, balanced appropriately.

[quote]
The biggest thing for me was that the audio was coming through speakers, and the audio through the speakers weren't the audio channels I actually needed to hear. I think headphones for the runner are a must.

The crowd and the couch area need to be able to hear the runner and the game audio and things, But the runner shouldn't need to hear themselves (this was my #1 issue, I could not hear host, couch or anything over the game audio and my own voice, because host and couch weren't coming through those speakers either at all, or not well enough for me to understand them) a Full on headset that allows personal runner sound would be a great improvement imo[/quote]

For the speakers, no, we will not pipe the runner/commentary. The only reason the headset would provide this is because headsets block out sound really strongly (including your own voice). Hearing yourself in the headset isn't distracting at all, it actually makes it easier to talk. People who have been on host station should know how this works.

Host was inaudible because he was turned off on the speakers most of the event due to feedback issues. Sorry. I'm hoping to fix that here.

Couch audio wasn't piped through speakers because of feedback plus I didn't think it was necessary. After all, you're sitting right next to these guys, you should be able to hear them conversationally.

For those BEHIND the couch, it is intentional not to hear them. We purposefully don't mic them, because it can be distracting. Some runners complained about people's comments behind the couch even when they weren't mic'ed, I'd hate to have them mic'ed. That said, if feedback is really well under control, I can try an AGDQ2013-style setup for those behind the couch, and [b]you all can give me your thoughts on that[/b], but it's going to be low priority.

The crowd is mic'ed however, at a low level. If feedback isn't a concern (which again, I hope to have solved, thanks in part to this thread), I can turn the crowd up more.

If you all have any other questions, shoot.

gyre

2014-07-20 05:45:29 pm

I'd be interested in trying out the headsets for AGDQ. That option gives us a new capability for piping audio to the couch. I've worn a headset for 5 hour runs. It's not the most comfortable thing by the end of that time but it's doable. I use one with a self mute control to let me reposition the headset without sounding horrible. It helps to adjust every few hours to relieve pressure and prevent tension headaches. The sets can get nasty after a solid week of use. Wiping them down with alcohol occasionally might be good. If we put a big colored indicator on each headband, it should be easier to spot who has which set when working the mixer.

If people don't like headsets I'd go with a more rigid earset for the second choice. The early GDQs with standing mics have too many runs with bad audio capture for my taste. I like the idea of zero setup but I don't want to sacrifice quality that much.

Vulajin

Edit history:

Vulajin: 2014-07-20 06:04:30 pm

2014-07-20 06:04:11 pm

One problem about using the earset approach without piping couch commentary to the runner somehow is that it can be genuinely hard to hear your couch as a runner. The main factors that tend to prevent this are distance between runner and couch (e.g. if the runner is on a chair playing a PC game with the couch five feet behind them) and the size of the room (cavern effect). At SGDQ, we absolutely could have used couch commentary piped through to the main speakers, if there hadn't been other audio issues with it (i.e. the feedback).

A note about headsets is that it will genuinely look pretty weird on stream if you have one guy sitting there playing a game with a headset, three guys sitting on the couch with headsets, and everyone else sitting near/around them with no headsets. I know this sounds like a rather superficial nitpick, but the more we're going for a professional presentation, the more this sort of thing matters. I think for this reason I would prefer the earsets + someone to provide guidance to runners on wearing them + piping all audio through the main speakers enough so that runners and couch can hear it.

One problem about using the earset approach without piping couch commentary to the runner somehow is that it can be genuinely hard to hear your couch as a runner. The main factors that tend to prevent this are distance between runner and couch (e.g. if the runner is on a chair playing a PC game with the couch five feet behind them) and the size of the room (cavern effect). At SGDQ, we absolutely could have used couch commentary piped through to the main speakers, if there hadn't been other audio issues with it (i.e. the feedback).

A note about headsets is that it will genuinely look pretty weird on stream if you have one guy sitting there playing a game with a headset, three guys sitting on the couch with headsets, and everyone else sitting near/around them with no headsets. I know this sounds like a rather superficial nitpick, but the more we're going for a professional presentation, the more this sort of thing matters. I think for this reason I would prefer the earsets + someone to provide guidance to runners on wearing them + piping all audio through the main speakers enough so that runners and couch can hear it.

UberGoose

2014-07-20 06:37:58 pm

Quote from Vulajin:

A note about headsets is that it will genuinely look pretty weird on stream if you have one guy sitting there playing a game with a headset, three guys sitting on the couch with headsets, and everyone else sitting near/around them with no headsets. I know this sounds like a rather superficial nitpick, but the more we're going for a professional presentation, the more this sort of thing matters. I think for this reason I would prefer the earsets + someone to provide guidance to runners on wearing them + piping all audio through the main speakers enough so that runners and couch can hear it.

This is my biggest issue with headsets. If it weren't for the "cosmetic" of it then I'd say headset wins 100%. They really aren't very uncomfortable even for longer periods of time unless the cups are too small.

Cool Matty

Edit history:

Cool Matty: 2014-07-20 07:25:47 pm

2014-07-20 07:24:50 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Honestly I couldn't give two hoots what it looks like. You see headsets on TV all the time at major events (in fact, the headset we're considering were the ones used at EVO). The people behind the couch are audience, they have no reason to have headsets. I'd much rather be able to hear everything clearly, and I think the stream would appreciate that more than the visibility of mics.

BTW, a photo of the headset we're considering was linked in my first post. They should be very large, reviews say they don't grip horribly strong so they shouldn't be uncomfortable over time.

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2014-07-20 08:34:21 pm

If a member of the audience has a question, will the runners/commentators and stream be able to hear it? Or do the crowd microphones only pickup group noises like clapping and stuff like that.

Emptyeye

2014-07-20 08:59:10 pm

Talk to the Hand

Speaking as someone who streams using a headset, I don't find it that uncomfortable, although I do take breaks when I cast. I think, given that you don't care about the cosmetic factor, and given the education difficulties with the earsets, the headsets would be the best option. As someone said, though, you'll want some kind of rubbing alcohol or cleaning product around to make sure they stay sanitary, which would be the main drawback to me.

Cool Matty

2014-07-20 09:08:07 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from Naegleria:

If a member of the audience has a question, will the runners/commentators and stream be able to hear it? Or do the crowd microphones only pickup group noises like clapping and stuff like that.

We've been talking about this, and so far the feel has been:

1. This doesn't happen very often.
2. Some runners will find it distracting.
3. They might potentially interrupt commentary/host.

In general, questions should be something the commentators are addressing. The crowd mic is for crowd reactions. If we wanted to allow audience questions, they'd need a mic, and that'd require a lot of micromanaging. Especially to keep stupid comments off air.

Laplacier

Edit history:

Laplacier: 2014-07-20 09:33:09 pm

2014-07-20 09:30:56 pm

StarSong Hype

Quote from Cool Matty:

Quote from Naegleria:

If a member of the audience has a question, will the runners/commentators and stream be able to hear it? Or do the crowd microphones only pickup group noises like clapping and stuff like that.

We've been talking about this, and so far the feel has been:

1. This doesn't happen very often.
2. Some runners will find it distracting.
3. They might potentially interrupt commentary/host.

In general, questions should be something the commentators are addressing. The crowd mic is for crowd reactions. If we wanted to allow audience questions, they'd need a mic, and that'd require a lot of micromanaging. Especially to keep stupid comments off air.

Could it at least be an option we could work out? I answer questions all the time when I'm running stuff. I'm sure there are others that do the same. I'm sure people who view the stream have thousands of questions they'd like answered and the crowd at the marathon could very well ask them and have them answered on stream. It would give off the "we're here for you ask us anything" impression that a lot of viewers on Twitch enjoy.

[quote="Cool Matty"][quote="Naegleria"]If a member of the audience has a question, will the runners/commentators and stream be able to hear it?  Or do the crowd microphones only pickup group noises like clapping and stuff like that.[/quote]

We've been talking about this, and so far the feel has been:

1. This doesn't happen very often.
2. Some runners will find it distracting.
3. They might potentially interrupt commentary/host.

In general, questions should be something the commentators are addressing. The crowd mic is for crowd reactions. If we wanted to allow audience questions, they'd need a mic, and that'd require a lot of micromanaging. Especially to keep stupid comments off air.[/quote]

Could it at least be an option we could work out? I answer questions all the time when I'm running stuff. I'm sure there are others that do the same. I'm sure people who view the stream have thousands of questions they'd like answered and the crowd at the marathon could very well ask them and have them answered on stream. It would give off the "we're here for you ask us anything" impression that a lot of viewers on Twitch enjoy.

honorableJay

Edit history:

honorableJay: 2014-07-21 12:20:09 am

2014-07-21 12:14:02 am

The Dork Knight himself.

Personally speaking I don't really mind which one I have to wear. All I care about is whether or not my voice can be heard on stream clearly. That being said, one of the advantages of having a bulky headset (i.e. headphone with mic attached) is if you don't like what you hear, you can always drop the the entire unit to rest around your neck and have the mic up to your mouth (and yes you can still hear the audio through the headphone speakers decently enough, I do it all the time when I stream).

Now from experience, the mics that were used at AGDQ 2014 were decent, but a pain to setup and even harder to really keep track of after a few streams. If those style mics are used again, there has to be some kind of rack to hold the base units (which should be numberd, mainly because the mic attachment could be hooked up to any of the bases). Personally I'm all for a mic setup that is as easy to put on as a headset.