Freedom Planet

2014-07-26 08:58:48 pm

Did some more runs tonight and got 2 more PBs. Brought the time down to a 58 and then to 56: http://www.twitch.tv/ihdl/c/4753587

The game seems to have a weird timing discrepancy. It's adding 5 extra centiseconds to the final time. I'm not sure where they're coming from but I reported it as a bug.

I included the RM zip in the runs today, but not the SB one. I did some testing and unfortunately the SB one seems incredibly inconsistent. With the exact same setup you either get it or you don't. It doesn't save a huge amount of time so I forewent it.

Saint Connor

Edit history:

Saint Connor: 2014-07-26 10:17:29 pm

2014-07-26 10:16:39 pm

Quote from HDL:

Casual mode regenerates your life so it would completely remove the risk of dying in a speed run (except to pits). I personally find that lame but I don't mind if it's just classified as a separate category.

I can dig that. The only reason I play on casual is because I'm shit at the game atm and until I get used to the route and fights, I'd rather not bash my head into the wall dying all the time. But there are some definite casual only strats, that could make it worthwhile for a separate category, so I'm cool with that.

Also, I'm not sure about using in game time. It's good for ILs, but not overall because it stops for cutscenes and transitions, so it's not entirely accurate. It would be similar to like say, Super Metroid or something.

HDL

2014-07-26 10:32:28 pm

Any game where in-game time is used has moments like stage clear and transitions where the timer isn't running. For example in Sonic 3 & Knuckles it stops once you defeat a boss and when a zone starts. It's standard for games like this, and that's fine because there's no need for the timer to run when the player isn't playing. Super Metroid is a different case because it isn't level-based and has plenty of moments where the in-game timer is frozen (and SM players use game time anyway).

The only issue for using game time for FP is the auto-scroller. Since it's possible to die and have to restart (and since it has a boss) then it's possible to lose time. It's only fair that section get timed as well, so I'll comment on it and see if that gets added.

Saint Connor

2014-07-26 11:48:49 pm

Whew man...I didn't think the execution in this game was going to be that brutal. It's not super difficult, but maintaining speed and jumping at the right times to get maximum height when going that fast is pretty damn hard.

Saint Connor

2014-07-27 12:58:05 am

Ok, so I'm gonna blow your fucking mind. In Dreadnaught 3, there is a point where one of the green teleporters takes you to a spot where two turrets spawn and there are 2 more green ports. Using HDL's vid for reference: http://www.twitch.tv/ihdl/c/4753587?t=58m43s

Unfortunately I wasn't streaming or anything when playing as I was trying to practice offline, but I went in the right port, like you should, and it took me straight to the end of that section. No idea what happened or what specifically I did, but it skipped everything after it's normal landing point. I'm gonna try to recreate it and if I get it, I'll try to record it and post it up.

Saint Connor

2014-07-27 01:46:30 am

Boom: http://www.twitch.tv/saintconnor/c/4755137

HDL

2014-07-27 07:30:53 am

That FD3 trick looks funny. I tried it myself and here's how I think it works: You must touch the teleporter during specific frames, and when you do for some reason it doesn't set the flag to reach the intended destination. I'm guessing when it touches the edge of the screen it just goes up as a failsafe.

Unfortunately it seems really hard. Looks like you need to get a very specific downward hit in order to trigger it on the correct frames. In most positions you'll just wind up getting knocked slightly back/up, then recovering before touching the teleporter. If there was a way to get the downward hit more consistently then we'd be in business. Were you holding anything during the hit?

Saint Connor

2014-07-27 07:50:14 am

The times I tried it and got it successfully, it was a damage boost from the turret, but you have to be facing left so it will boost you backwards (right) into the teleporter. It's similar to my Relic Maze zip where I got popped in the mouth by the enemy before getting smashed. But if you recover before hitting the port, or simply miss the damage boost, you just go through it as normal. So really it's a low risk, high reward trick.

HDL

Edit history:

HDL: 2014-07-27 07:54:10 am

2014-07-27 07:53:49 am

Yes I tried to replicate the setup in the video, but I only got the downward hit 1 time (and of course the trick worked). All other tries resulted in the typical knock back of slightly back/up, which makes you recover too quickly.

Saint Connor

Edit history:

Saint Connor: 2014-07-27 08:00:05 am

2014-07-27 07:59:32 am

Yeah, it seems like the timing is really tight. And you pretty much have to hit it on or near the pixel the lasers get fired out of the turret, otherwise you'll either recover too early or boost the wrong way. The first time I got it was accidental just jumping over to the port with no interuption (didn't wait on the wall like I did in the video). So I'm pretty sure it works other ways, either that or I did manage to get a downward angle. Either way, it can save some major time, and if not, no big loss.

HDL

2014-07-27 08:10:48 am

I timed the difference and this trick saves 8 seconds if you wait, 12 if you don't. I will keep playing with it later and see if there's a reliable method for it. Not ready to rule it out just yet.

Saint Connor

2014-07-27 08:12:54 am

Quote from HDL:

I timed the difference and this trick saves 8 seconds if you wait, 12 if you don't. I will keep playing with it later and see if there's a reliable method for it. Not ready to rule it out just yet.

How much time is saved compared to not doing the trick?

HDL

Edit history:

HDL: 2014-07-27 09:23:24 am

HDL: 2014-07-27 09:10:36 am

HDL: 2014-07-27 08:52:57 am

HDL: 2014-07-27 08:52:32 am

2014-07-27 08:29:34 am

That's what I meant. The normal route is 8 seconds slower, but if you get the trick immediately without waiting it's 12 seconds slower.

Edit: After playing with it some more I really think there's something else at work. I have a couple setups that have clearly made me touch the teleporter immediately after getting hit and I still didn't trigger the skip. On a few occasions I even went right through the teleporter, and on others I touched the middle of it AND the ground right after being hit and it wouldn't trigger. There's something about that downward knock back that causes it whereas the other type of knock back seems to never work.

More Edits: I figured it out. It always happens if you get knocked against the wall and then touch the floor during your knock back frames (so basically you want to land in the very corner). Getting knocked back or down doesn't seem to matter as long as those 2 prerequisites are satisfied. If done correctly your y-position will always be slightly higher than normal, causing you to go straight over the exit.

The reason it's easier if you wait is because as the turret points upward its hit boxes are closer to the wall, making it easier to get knocked further right.

I think I have a setup that works reasonably well. Bumping into the ceiling with a specific timing makes it easier to get. I just got it several times in a row, so I'm thinking the 4 second sacrifice is worth it to go for this.

That's what I meant.  The normal route is 8 seconds slower, but if you get the trick immediately without waiting it's 12 seconds slower.

Edit: After playing with it some more I really think there's something else at work.  I have a couple setups that have clearly made me touch the teleporter immediately after getting hit and I still didn't trigger the skip.  On a few occasions I even went right through the teleporter, and on others I touched the middle of it AND the ground right after being hit and it wouldn't trigger.  There's something about that downward knock back that causes it whereas the other type of knock back seems to never work.

More Edits: I figured it out.  It always happens if you get knocked against the wall and then touch the floor during your knock back frames (so basically you want to land in the very corner).  Getting knocked back or down doesn't seem to matter as long as those 2 prerequisites are satisfied.  If done correctly your y-position will always be slightly higher than normal, causing you to go straight over the exit.

The reason it's easier if you wait is because as the turret points upward its hit boxes are closer to the wall, making it easier to get knocked further right.

I think I have a setup that works reasonably well.  Bumping into the ceiling with a specific timing makes it easier to get.  I just got it several times in a row, so I'm thinking the 4 second sacrifice is worth it to go for this.

Saint Connor

2014-07-27 09:25:11 am

Makes sense.

So I took my video and extracted it from YT to drop it into a video editor to take a closer look at it. I did manage to hit the wall just before going into the teleporter.

Some other data (loosely calculated assuming game is 60fps and YT cuts everything to 30) : It's 70 frames between last shot ending and first shot starting for turrets. I made my jump on ~38th frame. I made my turn on ~6th frame before shots started. The first shot came from the right barrel (top depending on how you are looking at it), but they fire relatively close to center mass (barrels rotate like a mini gun). Lilac's head is just above the red rectangular portion of the turret when I get it.

HDL

2014-07-27 10:40:29 am

OK I refined my setup a bit further. It's still a bit hard but more reliable than before. Here's what I'm doing:

-When I drop in that area I just stand next to the right wall (in the middle, protected by fire).
-As soon as the turrets fire I count to 3 (so 2 seconds real time, but counting from 1 is easier for me). You can look at the timer to help.
-On the count of 3 the turrets stop firing so I jump to the ledge above and then jump to the ceiling.
-Face left and try to position myself in between the turret's 2 guns and with a y-position as low as possible.

Using this setup I always get knocked against the far right wall. The hard part is timing your y-position correctly so that you're low enough to land on the floor during knock back. I'm getting the trick at least half the time with this method, though.

Saint Connor

2014-07-27 10:46:57 am

I found another useless zip in Fortune Night too with the blue boxes that move back and forth/up and down. If you do a spin dash against the wall right as they are about to pin you against it, the clash will push you through the wall. Unfortunately, there are very few of them and their locations provide no benefit. I've also noticed that no matter how you approach/achieve a zip in this game, it always zips you up. Never down or across. Kind of sucks because it limits where we can go with them.

HDL

2014-07-27 11:16:50 am

Speak for yourself. Horizontal zips are part of what make the madness in S3K possible. I'd much rather play a more "normal" game at this point, lol. Chances are they will remain vertical as well. It's a product of the engine the game uses and there's a vertical zip in Thermal Base that is actually the intended method for reaching a "secret" room.

Saint Connor

2014-07-27 11:19:15 am

O rly. That's neat I guess.

Nah, I can dig it. I like the pace of the game. It's just weird finding tricks and only like a couple of them actually being useful. The game is still young though.

HDL

2014-07-27 01:26:07 pm

So I just learned that you don't need to destroy the cannons or get on Torque's plane in SB. You only need to touch the right side of the screen, which you can easily do with dragon boost (Milla can flutter over there too). I feel kind of silly for not even trying that before. embarassed

Saint Connor

2014-07-27 08:30:07 pm

Nice. That will certainly save a few seconds per ship if that's the case.

HDL

Edit history:

HDL: 2014-07-28 07:17:01 am

2014-07-28 07:16:46 am

Looks like there will be some relevant changes coming soon. The game will be getting difficulty updates that make normal mode easier, which means I'll have to redo all my ILs...again.

On the one hand it's good because it means the overall run will be faster, but I won't pretend that I'm not a bit disappointed. I wish people would just learn the game and get good. There are no bosses that are so tough you can't consistently beat them if you understand their movement/patterns.

By the way, I got a 3:00.81 for DV. It was almost perfect except for 2 mistakes that cost maybe 1-2 seconds, so sub 3 is still possible in this version if the level is done perfectly.

HDL

2014-07-29 06:56:58 am

You know that teleporter thing in FD3? Looks like there's one in FD1 too, and it's super easy to do. It was reported, though, so there's a chance it may be fixed and if it is, depending on the nature of the fix, the one in FD3 might be gone too. We'll see how it goes.

Strife

2014-07-30 12:56:22 pm

Dev here. It was pretty cool seeing some of the zip tactics in your Twitch steam the other day! Groovy stuff. I'm almost tempted to make achievements out of some of them, haha.

Anyway, as for which zips will be patched, my thoughts are that I should get rid of the zips that are too luck-based or require a high amount of precision to execute correctly. So, zips like the one in Relic Maze 1 would stay in but the FD3 zips would go. I'll also probably try and fix the zips that have no speedrunning benefit.

For the auto-scroller, I should point out that it's not completely autoscrolling - If you hold right and reach the right edge of the screen where the player will stop moving forward, the entire level moves forward a bit faster; This is most noticeable when you look at the Distance counter as it will count down faster when then is done. Additionally, as Lilac, you can make the level progress even faster by holding right and pressing A rapidly to dash forward. My speedrunning tactic for this segment is to stay at the top right corner, hold right and mash A and B until the boss comes.

I'm completely stumped at why the final Credits tally adds an additional 0.05 seconds... Worst case scenario, I can have it subtract those centiseconds manually, if you're absolutely sure that it's always off by this amount.

Cheers!

Dev here. It was pretty cool seeing some of the zip tactics in your Twitch steam the other day! Groovy stuff. I'm almost tempted to make achievements out of some of them, haha.

Anyway, as for which zips will be patched, my thoughts are that I should get rid of the zips that are too luck-based or require a high amount of precision to execute correctly. So, zips like the one in Relic Maze 1 would stay in but the FD3 zips would go. I'll also probably try and fix the zips that have no speedrunning benefit.

For the auto-scroller, I should point out that it's not completely autoscrolling - If you hold right and reach the right edge of the screen where the player will stop moving forward, the entire level moves forward a bit faster; This is most noticeable when you look at the Distance counter as it will count down faster when then is done. Additionally, as Lilac, you can make the level progress even faster by holding right and pressing A rapidly to dash forward. My speedrunning tactic for this segment is to stay at the top right corner, hold right and mash A and B until the boss comes.

I'm completely stumped at why the final Credits tally adds an additional 0.05 seconds... Worst case scenario, I can have it subtract those centiseconds manually, if you're absolutely sure that it's always off by this amount.

Cheers!

HDL

2014-07-30 03:22:06 pm

Quote from Strife:

Anyway, as for which zips will be patched, my thoughts are that I should get rid of the zips that are too luck-based or require a high amount of precision to execute correctly. So, zips like the one in Relic Maze 1 would stay in but the FD3 zips would go. I'll also probably try and fix the zips that have no speedrunning benefit.

I personally don't mind if they're fixed (polishing the game is priority), but there is one unfortunate side effect to it: it can lead to unbeatable records (limited to individual levels for now). For instance I'm not sure I could ever beat my current FD1 or FD3 times because the teleporter tricks used in them were removed, and I don't want to delete my records file just to reset 2 stages.

Quote from Strife:

For the auto-scroller, I should point out that it's not completely autoscrolling - If you hold right and reach the right edge of the screen where the player will stop moving forward, the entire level moves forward a bit faster

I actually figured this out during the run I had after you left (I noticed the background moving faster). My chat told me you had mentioned it before, I just happened to not catch it. This of course provides even more incentive to time that stage (even if the timer is invisible).

Quote from Strife:

I'm completely stumped at why the final Credits tally adds an additional 0.05 seconds... Worst case scenario, I can have it subtract those centiseconds manually, if you're absolutely sure that it's always off by this amount.

I've verified it multiple times so I'm completely sure. If you do figure out what's causing it I'd love to know. In the meantime at least we know it's consistently 5 centiseconds and not random values.

I'm glad you enjoyed watching the runs. Feel free to drop in any time as I'm sure my chat would love speaking to the dev of the game (I would too)! It's good PR you know. Wink

[quote="Strife"]Anyway, as for which zips will be patched, my thoughts are that I should get rid of the zips that are too luck-based or require a high amount of precision to execute correctly. So, zips like the one in Relic Maze 1 would stay in but the FD3 zips would go. I'll also probably try and fix the zips that have no speedrunning benefit.[/quote]

I personally don't mind if they're fixed (polishing the game is priority), but there is one unfortunate side effect to it: it can lead to unbeatable records (limited to individual levels for now).  For instance I'm not sure I could ever beat my current FD1 or FD3 times because the teleporter tricks used in them were removed, and I don't want to delete my records file just to reset 2 stages.

[quote="Strife"]For the auto-scroller, I should point out that it's not completely autoscrolling - If you hold right and reach the right edge of the screen where the player will stop moving forward, the entire level moves forward a bit faster[/quote]

I actually figured this out during the run I had after you left (I noticed the background moving faster).  My chat told me you had mentioned it before, I just happened to not catch it.  This of course provides even more incentive to time that stage (even if the timer is invisible).

[quote="Strife"]I'm completely stumped at why the final Credits tally adds an additional 0.05 seconds... Worst case scenario, I can have it subtract those centiseconds manually, if you're absolutely sure that it's always off by this amount.[/quote]

I've verified it multiple times so I'm completely sure.  If you do figure out what's causing it I'd love to know.  In the meantime at least we know it's consistently 5 centiseconds and not random values.

I'm glad you enjoyed watching the runs.  Feel free to drop in any time as I'm sure my chat would love speaking to the dev of the game (I would too)!  It's good PR you know. ;) ;)

Dahel

Edit history:

Dahel: 2014-07-30 07:15:12 pm

2014-07-30 07:08:14 pm

After a good run with Lilac, I decied to do a sorta-speedrun, with bare-minimum routing. In the end, I got 1:38:00 (with some bad deaths, though). A good start, now practice time.

HDL your runs are a great inspiration, but i've been wondering : why aren't you going for the "preemptive strikes" (as the achievements call them). Especially the Mantis one as it can be a bit tricky, but could really speed up the fight if you can do it consistently.

I'm also trying a setup against Brevon's 3rd form : after the cape teleport, if you stand near the slopes on the sides as he gets above you, dragon boosting on the slope will also hit him while he's jumping on the wall to set the landmines.