Final Fantasy VIII

2013-04-07 09:54:38 pm

Robot Master

I see. Cutting down on the menuing is a really smart approach. Thanks for providing your notes again, Pox, and good luck on your (and FFG's) next run.

bobswiftfoot

2013-04-07 11:32:06 pm

If you're interested, here is the AP file from before that I've updated to match the new route for my own reference. I've slightly mixed poxnor/ffgamer's route with bizkit's. I think the only thing AP difference is Pandemona learning SPD-J

Attachment:

AP FF8.docx

Sush

2013-04-12 04:28:50 am

Concerning the Fire Cavern, does anyone know if there's a definitive way to understand the order in which each mob type appears in each random encounter?

For example the most common 4 battles (given that you don't soft reset anywhere and don't attempt a menu skip) are, in order, 2xbats, 2xbats and 2xbombs, Buel and finally 1xbomb. I am aiming for 3 encounters where 2 of them are 2xbats and am struggling to find a sure fire way to make this happen.

I will get 2xbats twice in 4 rarely with no attempted skips and the order of the mobs will change randomly if I menu skip the first encounter. Soft reseting will also delay the first and sometimes second encounter with the same results.

Am I once again at the mercy of RNG?

FFgamer86

2013-04-12 01:40:41 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

Ok, from what I have noticed so far, the encounters are somewhat determined from the screen you are on, That buel encounter will be a 2x bat encounter if you encounter it on the screen before it.

puwexil

2013-04-12 02:26:18 pm

Professional Second Banana

If random encounters in FF8 work like they do in FF7, each area where you can get encounters has a table of possible enemy formations; and when you get encounters and which enemy formation you get depends on some math between the # of steps you've taken and the encounter rate for the area. In FF7 whether battles are pre-emptive/back/pincer attacks is also determined by that enemy table; but from talking to Bizkit it sounds like FF8 does it differently.

DarkKobold or someone else that's TAS'd FF8 should be able to give a better answer.

BrutalAl

Edit history:

BrutalAl: 2013-04-13 07:36:37 am

2013-04-13 06:15:33 am

Battles, When
*When* you get battles is determined by basically identical mechanics to those in FF7.
For each step you take in a hostile field (field where you can get random encounters) your step counter increments and your DangerValue increments.
And for each step you take your DangerValue is compared to a step-specific, DangerLimit (Limits are randomly distributed among steps, but any given step will always have the same limit) and if your DangerValue is above the limit you get an encounter (and the dangerValue is reset), and if your dangerValue is not over the limit you don't get a battle and get to move on to the next step.

This also means that battles can be removed in FF8 just like in FF7 by simply walking (as opposed to running) at specific times during movement since just like in FF7 walking will increase the dangerValue by a lower amount per step compared to running.
I told darkwasabi all about this (in depth) close to 5 years ago and also gave him a table/sheet which computed danger -value and -limits per step. With this he set himself up with a walk/run route, but I don't recall if ever got to implement it in a run, and I also wouldn't know if he ever shared his route or the knowledge about random manipulation before he turned inactive.
I also told one of the very first FF8 TASers about walking manipulation but he wasn't too keen on taking advice and I don't think he ever did do anything with it, probably not even pass it on (although the posts we exchanged was in a public thread, left for anyone to see).

Battles, What
In FF7 *what* enemies you'll face in a battle is of course determined by what field you're in.
And while the field dictates the list of possible battles, the randomness to it is determined by what battles you've already fought since a hard reset (forced and worldmap battles excluded), and what your very last battle was (also since hard reset, forced and worldmap excluded).
As for FF8 I actually don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it works in a similar fashion given how identical the mechanic for when to give you battles is to FF7's.
Question: Is there a list with probabilities ("actual" probabilities, not rough empirical estimates) anywhere? If how enemy formations are picked isn't already mapped and explained or known by anyone I could have a brief look and see if it's anything like in FF7.

Side Note: Menu Skip, Clarification
In FF7 there is a menu skip that actually skips the battle, the window for the skip in FF7 is mere frames though, so it's very hard to pull of in anything but a TAS.
The so called Menu "Skip" in FF8 is vastly easier to pull of than its FF7 counterpart, but in FF8 it isn't an actual skip per se but instead just a delay (unless there is another menu skip which I'm not aware of), movement done while fading in and out from the menu will simply not count since the step counter will not register steps during the fading. This is an important distinction to make when trying to remove battles via walking manipulation. The Menu-"skip" trick will only be able to actually remove/skip battles if combined with saving, and for this reason I personally think it should be referred to as a Delay rather than a Skip.

Battles, When
*When* you get battles is determined by basically identical mechanics to those in FF7.
For each step you take in a hostile field (field where you can get random encounters) your step counter increments and your DangerValue increments.
And for each step you take your DangerValue is compared to a step-specific, DangerLimit (Limits are randomly distributed among steps, but any given step will always have the same limit) and if your DangerValue is above the limit you get an encounter (and the dangerValue is reset), and if your dangerValue is not over the limit you don't get a battle and get to move on to the next step.

This also means that battles can be removed in FF8 just like in FF7 by simply walking (as opposed to running) at specific times during movement since just like in FF7 walking will increase the dangerValue by a lower amount per step compared to running.
I told darkwasabi all about this (in depth) close to 5 years ago and also gave him a table/sheet which computed danger -value and -limits per step. With this he set himself up with a walk/run route, but I don't recall if ever got to implement it in a run, and I also wouldn't know if he ever shared his route or the knowledge about random manipulation before he turned inactive.
I also told one of the very first FF8 TASers about walking manipulation but he wasn't too keen on taking advice and I don't think he ever did do anything with it, probably not even pass it on (although the posts we exchanged was in a public thread, left for anyone to see).

Battles, What
In FF7 *what* enemies you'll face in a battle is of course determined by what field you're in.
And while the field dictates the list of possible battles, the randomness to it is determined by what battles you've already fought since a hard reset (forced and worldmap battles excluded), and what your very last battle was (also since hard reset, forced and worldmap excluded).
As for FF8 I actually don't know, but it wouldn't surprise me if it works in a similar fashion given how identical the mechanic for when to give you battles is to FF7's.
[b]Question[/b]: Is there a list with probabilities ("actual" probabilities, not rough empirical estimates) anywhere? If how enemy formations are picked isn't already mapped and explained or known by anyone I could have a brief look and see if it's anything like in FF7.

Side Note: Menu Skip, Clarification
In FF7 there is a menu skip that actually skips the battle, the window for the skip in FF7 is mere frames though, so it's very hard to pull of in anything but a TAS.
The so called Menu "Skip" in FF8 is vastly easier to pull of than its FF7 counterpart, but in FF8 it isn't an actual skip per se but instead just a delay (unless there is another menu skip which I'm not aware of), movement done while fading in and out from the menu will simply not count since the step counter will not register steps during the fading. This is an important distinction to make when trying to remove battles via walking manipulation. The Menu-"skip" trick will only be able to actually remove/skip battles if combined with saving, and for this reason I personally think it should be referred to as a Delay rather than a Skip.

Sush

2013-04-14 04:57:27 am

Thanks for the really usefull info! Knowing that enemy encounters depend on the screen you're currently on explains a lot.

I for one am very interested in the nitty-gritty details of walking/running to delay encounters. If I could reliably reduce the amount of random encounters in a few given ares it would be a real help.

Would you be so kind as to share the stuff you currently have on hand? My Google skills fail me at finding anything you or anyone else has written on the topic elsewhere.

I'd also be curious as to how this tactic can be used with enc-half (which apparently should be called enc-quarter).

Thanks again for sharing. Would be great to incorporate this into my new run.

Poxnor

2013-04-15 06:05:06 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

So, we know the old fat PS2s + fast disc speed are crashy with FF8.

We know the SCPH-90001 (the last slim PS2 before discontinuation) with fast disc speed is fine with FF8.

Do we know anything about the earlier-model slim PS2s? (I ask, because it's relevant for an upcoming marathon.)

FFgamer86

2013-04-15 06:54:43 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

I thought caracarn had an older ps2 slim

Caracarn

2013-04-15 07:01:00 pm

I use an SCPH-70012. I know some of the other 7xxxx models have had issues with running this game.

Poxnor

Edit history:

Poxnor: 2013-04-15 09:08:56 pm

2013-04-15 09:08:38 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

But your SCPH-70012 is good at least? In other words, if I said, "SCPH-70012 or later is good, but nothing earlier," would that likely be a safe (if potentially conservative) statement? (Thanks FFGamer and Cara!)

Caracarn

2013-04-15 11:29:47 pm

yes, mine is fine, but Bizkit had trouble running this game with a newer 7xxxx model (I don't remember the exact number), and Spike had trouble with FF9 on a couple other models.

FFgamer86

2013-04-15 11:34:29 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

Disc wear and tear may also become a factor. If you run it on fast disc speed enough times wont it eventually dig into the disc?

Caracarn

2013-04-16 12:55:34 am

possibly, but my PS2 and my FF8 discs are nearly 10 years old and they still work

FFgamer86

2013-04-16 03:51:50 am

SDA Speedruns: 1

You have been getting some soft locks though. It may start to get worst?

Caracarn

2013-04-16 09:40:40 am

It wasn't really a softlock per se, it's what happens when you try to leave the airlock screen too early. I occasionally have the intro FMV skip a bit at the part where the gunblade is falling to the ground, but I just clean the disc off and try again.

Poxnor

2013-04-16 12:20:11 pm

Moo! Flap! Hug!

FFGamer: Disc wear is not the issue at hand. My FF8 discs are pristine, and they crash -- but only on some models. Please don't muddy the issue by worrying about bad discs. We know that FF8 crashes with pristine discs on some models, and I need to know which models are good for an upcoming marathon.

Mynthor

2013-04-16 12:47:28 pm

Play more Tetris!

Does anyone else have SCPH-70004? Mine seems quite slow-ish, so is it model's fault or just mine PS2's fault (Both mine FF8 and PS2 are quite old, FF8 +10 and Ps2 about 9 years old)

Caracarn

2013-04-16 06:11:19 pm

70004 is PAL, it's always going to be slower than NTSC

CrystalBeauty

2013-04-20 12:41:57 am

75001 is fine with FF8 Fast disc.

metalsmith

2013-04-25 06:47:40 pm

Question: When playing through dollet, i noticed that seifer, when zell and squall are dead, will always have access to his limit break.

is it faster to junction stack seifer and use his limit on multiple enemies and then one shot the snake, then switch back just before selphie arrives?

FFgamer86

2013-04-26 12:30:44 am

SDA Speedruns: 1

animation for seifer's limit break = pretty long animation compared to just attacking the enemies. 2 of the battles = 1 enemy so those battles guarantee for longer time. how do you kill off zell when he has about 450 health? Attacking him = more than 4 hits which would be the time it takes to kill the other 2 battles that have 2 enemies each in them.

metalsmith

2013-04-26 06:38:48 pm

My guy might have been doing more damage than he should have at that point in time. I had all my stuff on seifer though.

I mention it for 2 reasons: the experience he earns does not transfer to any other characters, and his limit break does roughly 4x his normal attack from what i can see. (2x his normal attack on multiple targets). I'll play around with it using your notes so I'm not just talking out my rear end next time :P. I just wasn't sure how important keeping the character's levels down was.

metalsmith

2013-04-26 08:26:20 pm

Sorry for double post, just some quick info on this:

You can trigger seifer's limit with just squall dead. squall should be low health at this point anyhow, so just don't heal him at all. Zell should be able to kill him in one hit.

When selfie arrives, he will be alive with 1 health as well. Going by this, if you also then switch to having them all dead except ward during laguna sequence #2, you easily avoid any levels being gained through the entire disc. it shouldn't be too hard then to get break magic, put it on status attack, and continue the game using break on all human opponents. 1 soft from item shop would equal 3 breaks. So, 3300 gil would be all that's needed (and getting St mag refine with diablos before the end of disc 2) and you can petrify more or less every forced encounter in the game and gain no experience from the battle.

I'm not as well versed in the mechanics of the game as some are, but those couple of levels that you would be lower would keep the randomness of bosses down, sometimes by a couple thousand HP. Namely because most enemies are as low as possible, within 5~ levels or a % of the party average.

>.< I gotta go play back through the start of the game now, to see if you can't get card with only fighting 2 fish. If you can 2 fish it, get lucky and get your 5 fins, then fight through the streets of dollet and equip your card while waiting for the dog to move. One limit with seifer and have zell just start using card. ult will do around 600~ damage.

checking some things out while I'm typing it. You could also kill 5 fish, kill a 5th one then run from battle. You'll still get the 3 ap, but you won't get enough experience to level anyone.

Sorry for double post, just some quick info on this:

You can trigger seifer's limit with just squall dead. squall should be low health at this point anyhow, so just don't heal him at all. Zell should be able to kill him in one hit.

When selfie arrives, he will be alive with 1 health as well. Going by this, if you also then switch to having them all dead except ward during laguna sequence #2, you easily avoid any levels being gained through the entire disc. it shouldn't be too hard then to get break magic, put it on status attack, and continue the game using break on all human opponents. 1 soft from item shop would equal 3 breaks. So, 3300 gil would be all that's needed (and getting St mag refine with diablos before the end of disc 2) and you can petrify more or less every forced encounter in the game and gain no experience from the battle.

I'm not as well versed in the mechanics of the game as some are, but those couple of levels that you would be lower would keep the randomness of bosses down, sometimes by a couple thousand HP.  Namely because most enemies are as low as possible, within 5~ levels or a % of the party average.

>.< I gotta go play back through the start of the game now, to see if you can't get card with only fighting 2 fish. If you can 2 fish it, get lucky and get your 5 fins, then fight through the streets of dollet and equip your card while waiting for the dog to move. One limit with seifer and have zell just start using card. ult will do around 600~ damage.

checking some things out while I'm typing it. You could also kill 5 fish, kill a 5th one then run from battle. You'll still get the 3 ap, but you won't get enough experience to level anyone.

FFgamer86

2013-04-26 09:20:19 pm

SDA Speedruns: 1

Squall can kill the enemies in 1 hit already. So having squall dead will end up losing time on the 2 battles with just 1 enemy. Also, Seifer can kill the enemies in 1 hit already as well as long as you pull trigger and get good damage.