Final Fantasy IV (SNES)

Humble

Edit history:

Humble: 2012-05-01 12:59:17 pm

2012-04-21 05:20:26 am

To perceive is to suffer

Hey everyone,

I've been casually speed running FFIV after seeing Rane crush it during AGDQ. It is the first game I have ever speed runned and I gotta say it's very fun. Not only the run itself but the preparation and practice has its own entertainment. However, this game can kill you easily in a single segment (which is what I'm striving for) and I'm having some inconsistencies with Zeromus.

Just to be clear I'm playing on an FFII US cart on an SNES. If Zeromus regains his health, I'm pretty much done for. Is there a way around it other then to pester your friends into being human calculators? I believe the dmg window is 12-16k and if he gets a turn, all that hard work goes down the drain. Please help!

Thread title:

RaneofSOTN

2012-04-21 08:40:54 am

I want off the ride....

Incorrect, in FF2us. If you damage him DIRECTLY at all (without it being a finishing blow) below 18k, he will refill his HP. the Human calculators were there to make it much more.. well... reliable to make sure the final blow would kill him.

Rydia's damage at that point is a bit variable froma bout 6k to 9999 (gotta love them multipliers). And Rosa's is like 5-8k. So when you get it low enough you can just "go for the kill", you can even get it lower to use a kain jump (2-3k), but almost all listings of Zeromus are for the FF4 hardtype ai. cause no one ever bothered to look into this.

This was one hell of a roadblock that I didn't know about until I was seriously trying to run the game for the marathon. Also the marathon was my first true "SS" clear given that I didn't die, or lose a run to the grind. (which i have lost a few to).

I have been meaning to go back and improve the SS on the site (which I recommend you watch, but skip the Cal + golbez fights as I had a recording issue there).

Zeromus fight follows a VERY set AI. and you can tell if you forcibly refreshed his HP or not as it does do a cycle reset, and changes spells. I suggest you look up this pattern and memorize it. He is the ONLY fixed fight in FF4 (2us), and for some reason is the only really hard one. You can beat the game without grinding except for this one battle because of BIG BANG.

Also look into Deign's notes for his TAS/Speed run cause thats where i got a lot of relevant ideas/stuffs to perform the run. Like using Cure1 to lower Zeromus' damage for the first 2-3 big bangs.

be mindful of your battlespeed. zeromus below 4... is just nearly impossible. He acts wayyy too quickly for you to get your turns in. 3-4 is about optimal for this final boss (which is sad, but its a case of a common thing in square end bosses *Cough*CT*COUGH*). This is something I am meaning to do which is re-do my Golb+cal fight and on to go to Bat Spd 1 (it probably would save time... i'll explain that to you sometime maybe).

but yeah good luck.!

Incorrect, in FF2us. If you damage him DIRECTLY at all (without it being a finishing blow) below 18k, he will refill his HP. the Human calculators were there to make it much more.. well... reliable to make sure the final blow would kill him.

Rydia's damage at that point is a bit variable froma bout 6k to 9999 (gotta love them multipliers). And Rosa's is like 5-8k. So when you get it low enough you can just "go for the kill", you can even get it lower to use a kain jump (2-3k), but almost all listings of Zeromus are for the FF4 hardtype ai. cause no one ever bothered to look into this.

This was one hell of a roadblock that I didn't know about until I was seriously trying to run the game for the marathon. Also the marathon was my first true "SS" clear given that I didn't die, or lose a run to the grind. (which i have lost a few to).

I have been meaning to go back and improve the SS on the site (which I recommend you watch, but skip the Cal + golbez fights as I had a recording issue there).

Zeromus fight follows a VERY set AI. and you can tell if you forcibly refreshed his HP or not as it does do a cycle reset, and changes spells. I suggest you look up this pattern and memorize it. He is the ONLY fixed fight in FF4 (2us), and for some reason is the only really hard one. You can beat the game without grinding except for this one battle because of BIG BANG.

Also look into Deign's notes for his TAS/Speed run cause thats where i got a lot of relevant ideas/stuffs to perform the run. Like using Cure1 to lower Zeromus' damage for the first 2-3 big bangs.

be mindful of your battlespeed. zeromus below 4... is just nearly impossible. He acts wayyy too quickly for you to get your turns in. 3-4 is about optimal for this final boss (which is sad, but its a case of a common thing in square end bosses *Cough*CT*COUGH*). This is something I am meaning to do which is re-do my Golb+cal fight and on to go to Bat Spd 1 (it probably would save time... i'll explain that to you sometime maybe).

but yeah good luck.!

Humble

2012-04-21 10:03:39 am

To perceive is to suffer

The clouds have parted and I now see the light! So ANY direct dmg below 18k will trigger the HP refill it makes sense now. I have watched your SS on the site as well as deign's TAS (bouncing flares from cure 1 and ALL hitting Rosa) and regular speedrun. I'm familiar with all bosses and strats (well now I am), but Zeromus was the sole fly in the ointment. I could never beat him on battle speed 1 or 2 so I have been using 4 or 5.

Thanks a ton for saving me more aggravation! Now I must kill people for wrong information.

RaneofSOTN

2012-04-21 10:12:12 am

I want off the ride....

Quote from Humble:

Thanks a ton for saving me more aggravation! Now I must kill people for wrong information.

This soo much this. Also his HP is listed wrong as it is slightly lower in FF2us. Just letting you know, it starts at 61k? or is that HT? whatever. Dive deep... I think in the FF4 topic there is a listing to look up Enemy's HP (esp for zeromus). I know that nitrodon told me the addr to look at. I suggest you do an emulated run once to do that.

If you are OPTIMAL as ALL hell and lucky on all damages, you can kill zeromus before his first Black hole ;D, good luck if you ever manage that in an SS. I think i got my kill just after his first black hole which is still amazing.

Humble

2012-04-21 11:14:42 am

To perceive is to suffer

All right then, 61k-ish before first Black Hole seems like quite a rare feat. I usually do around 30k before getting Big Banged, then continue offensive and healing for the big Big Bang to Black Hole combo. I attack him without reflect when I estimate he's low, but that is my mistake. If he doesn't die I'm in a world hurt.

RaneofSOTN

2012-04-21 12:03:20 pm

I want off the ride....

Also how are you setting up your party... since that battle order is determined by position! This is why i use the setup i use for that fight. Do NOT think its for any other reason. if you know the position #'s in FF4 then its easy to see that position 1 goes first then 2 and so on. So Cecil is in position 1 (crystal use), Rosa (wall), Kain (jump), Rydia (Cure1), Edge (Throw Shuriken), then you should get countered + Big Bang shortly there after. Then White Jump Flare, Jump Flare, prepare to wall (the second you see Big Bang, you can cast wall provided its not an OFF pattern (see virus/flare/meteor turn). If you dont know what i mean, look into the AI for zeromus it is VERY fixed

and as so you can abuse that fact. If you dont QUE wall as soon as big bang is going on, you won't get it right after black hole, and thus won't be able to reliably get a flare in (if you do this you can revive rydia and she'll get a turn and be able to cast flare JUST BEFORE the next big bang...)

I mean you have to understand I spent a good week on making this zeromus strat, and it is 80% pass. So when i say these facts, please understand that the 20% fail is user dependant..

Also how are you setting up your party... since that battle order is determined by position! This is why i use the setup i use for that fight. Do NOT think its for any other reason. if you know the position #'s in FF4 then its easy to see that position 1 goes first then 2 and so on. So Cecil is in position 1 (crystal use), Rosa (wall), Kain (jump), Rydia (Cure1), Edge (Throw Shuriken), then you should get countered + Big Bang shortly there after. Then White Jump Flare, Jump Flare, prepare to wall (the second you see Big Bang, you can cast wall provided its not an OFF pattern (see virus/flare/meteor turn). If you dont know what i mean, look into the AI for zeromus it is VERY fixed

and as so you can abuse that fact. If you dont QUE wall as soon as big bang is going on, you won't get it right after black hole, and thus won't be able to reliably get a flare in (if you do this you can revive rydia and she'll get a turn and be able to cast flare JUST BEFORE the next big bang...)

I mean you have to understand I spent a good week on making this zeromus strat, and it is 80% pass. So when i say these facts, please understand that the 20% fail is user dependant..

Humble

2012-04-21 12:16:55 pm

To perceive is to suffer

Yea I understand the fixed turn order, but can't you get in 2 Whites before the first Black Hole?

Also, what HP values dictate his phases? I have experienced both Bio and Flare after the third Big Bang meaning he jumps a phase if I deal enough damage to him, or it may have been a counter attack (can't remember).

Emptyeye

2012-04-21 12:37:30 pm

Talk to the Hand

One little fun note: Kareshi says you can actually get to (Not beat, as Rane already said) Zeromus without fighting any battles outside of bosses, including chest monsters. I honestly don't remember if any random battles outside of the D. Machine grinding was fought in the speedrun.

RaneofSOTN

2012-04-21 01:01:02 pm

I want off the ride....

he stays in 4 until you reset his HP, then he goes to 5 (uses flare), if he goes to 6 thats meteo abuse. So....... spell = phase. 4 = first 61k-65k (ver difference), phase 5 - next 30-40k, phase 6 - your close final 30k!

Humble

Edit history:

Humble: 2012-04-21 01:49:30 pm

2012-04-21 01:48:34 pm

To perceive is to suffer

Just beat him 5 min ago with White to his face with Rosa standing alone with 220 HP after 4 BBs. My final save for the file was 3:45 game time (third attempt). Oh and Rydia actually missed her first reflected Nuke, but luckily I had my buddy calculate dmg for me. Thanks for all the help, I can confidently run this game SS now!

Humble

2012-04-22 07:43:20 pm

To perceive is to suffer

I've been crushing Zeromus consistently now thanks to your help Rane. Thanks again.

Just to clarify, the run is still a serious one:
- minimal chests such as change rod and tiara
- only grinding on dragon-alert combo
- I've been able to kill Golbez before Rydia shows up with mute Cecil

I really only made this thread in caual because I have no recording equipment. I'll still be gunning for a good SS time nonthless. Also I just had an run killed by Fabul.

RaneofSOTN

2012-04-23 02:00:17 pm

I want off the ride....

get used to Fabul killing runs. Mom bomb and fabul are where a lot of runs go to die.

those 3 facts are generally right, dont forget the sword and ether(s) early.

Honestly i know my time is improvable by like 10 minutes, so good luck!

Humble

2012-04-23 06:55:03 pm

To perceive is to suffer

I will let you know if I beat it, but I have no way of proving it. Oh well, I'm going to practice the grinding section now.

RaneofSOTN

2012-04-23 07:28:38 pm

I want off the ride....

The grinding section... Watch my run. if you notice i set it up a specific way, and this way it is easily able to A. reproduce, B. Fix the situation if it gets out of cycle and C. By doing it all in one battle I ensure that as long as I can count i'm OK!

I believe the ideal situation is Cecil Barefists Alert, FuSoYa casts WEAK, Edge Finishes with Weapon, Rydia casts life1 (item), Rosa casts cure 2(all)/life1(item) This depends on your timing, you need very good cycle luck (see the segmented) to get it> its possible with this setup but its not very likely and the timing is too annoying to prepare for SS.

The cure 2's will keep everyone but FuSoYa up, just remember when repeating the cycle to ELIXIR fusoya. You can sub this in for a Cure2 from rosa to keep the cycle going (if your doing it right/well).

Humble, even if you 'beat' my run. I am planning on going back and redoing end game strats to be faster. So there is a high probability that your run will just set a new lower bar for me. So feel free. Also if you get solid enough, you should check out speedrunslive. If you want to do some partial FF4 races on that sometime.

The grinding section... Watch my run. if you notice i set it up a specific way, and this way it is easily able to A. reproduce, B. Fix the situation if it gets out of cycle and C. By doing it all in one battle I ensure that as long as I can count i'm OK!

I believe the ideal situation is Cecil Barefists Alert, FuSoYa casts WEAK, Edge Finishes with Weapon, Rydia casts life1 (item), Rosa casts cure 2(all)/life1(item) This depends on your timing, you need very good cycle luck (see the segmented) to get it> its possible with this setup but its not very likely and the timing is too annoying to prepare for SS.

The cure 2's will keep everyone but FuSoYa up, just remember when repeating the cycle to ELIXIR fusoya. You can sub this in for a Cure2 from rosa to keep the cycle going (if your doing it right/well).

Humble, even if you 'beat' my run. I am planning on going back and redoing end game strats to be faster. So there is a high probability that your run will just set a new lower bar for me. So feel free. Also if you get solid enough, you should check out speedrunslive. If you want to do some partial FF4 races on that sometime.

Humble

2012-04-24 10:25:39 am

To perceive is to suffer

Practiced it 4 times last night, got horrible luck with finding the right battle at first. I was able to get the perfect cycle, but since Rydia died in multiple boss battles, I fell short on exp. After that I accidentally let FooSoYa die to Fire and the party was shortly after wiped out. The final two went perfectly, got the battle within 1 or 2 random encounters and kept the rotation. The "4" elements are insanely easy but the 3 orbs of death can be troublesome. I'm keeping the save in the giant so I can polish this tricky section of the game. I have to remember not to set up Wall too early vs. CPU since I end up killing Rosa with Fire 3.

RaneofSOTN

2012-04-24 10:46:17 am

I want off the ride....

i dont have a good solution to help you with CPU. ... I mean... You do realize flare has INSTANT CAST TIME right? So your best bet is to sit on rydia with flare... So like Meteo cast -> wall cast, try to cast white, cast flare as meteo goes off, and pray? i donno... If you have to burn turns with Edge/Cecil just have them swing on the CPU in the back. its not much but a few hundreds of HP help ya know.

Humble

2012-04-24 11:02:14 am

To perceive is to suffer

Yea Flare would be a better choice than Fire 3 but I wanted to make sure Meteo goes off first. That fight is all timing.

Oh and I checked out speedrunslive and we should race sometime. With saves I would think.

Humble

2012-04-29 02:12:54 am

To perceive is to suffer

Haven't had much time to play until today sans a few practice runs from the grinding to the end. All were SS with no saves and went like this:

Run 1 - Tellah failed to cast Life as Cecil delt the final blow to Octomamm triggering a reset (not a good start).

Run 2 - Edward failed against Waterhag.

Run 3 - This was the golden run. Everything was working out well; Mist Dragon went down before 2nd mist, Rydia was surviving early boss battles, limited extra steps in dungeons, good black chocobo luck, very fast Magus Sisters battle, easy Rubicante kill, and a Golbez quick kill. Really, the only semi-bad parts of the run were activating Calcabrena and some slow menu work at times. Then I went in the Giant and proceeded to get into back attacks and surprise attacks only, thus wiping my party just a few steps short of the save point where I could use a cabin.

I guess that's just a taste of ffiv's soul destroying power. Too tired to continue tonight, but I'll hit it again tomorrow.

RaneofSOTN

2012-04-29 02:42:58 pm

I want off the ride....

yes FF4 can destroy your soul. Calcabrena survival is one thing in and of itself

i give you my condolences and my awe. I fear that beast.. and I think you know why.

Humble

Edit history:

Humble: 2012-05-17 10:23:46 pm

2012-04-29 11:40:50 pm

To perceive is to suffer

Yes Calcabrena is certainly a big pain. Not only does activating her waste a few minutes in battle time, but also can end a run outright if Cecil dies. I loaded a previous save at the halfway point (outside dwarf castle before cals, brenas, and Golbez) just to finish the run from yesterday for closure. Still no saves:

-No Calcabrena and another Golbez quick kill (swing with Cecil during Mist Dragon attack animation).
-Was able to kill Lugae before he operates Balnab with 2 jumps and 1 Titan.
-Rubicant died easily.
-Got the correct grinding battle FIRST TRY in the Element(s) room. It was a back attack but the order held.
-Elements and CPU went easily enough but I forgot to strip FooSoYa (still got Lunar Staff for Rosa).
-Zeromus went down right after 1st Black Hole. I've been using cure1 before the first and second Big Bang to ensure survival for Rydia and Cecil. This battle is a piece of cake now.

I'm so close to my first successful SS deathless run. Can't wait till I have more time, but the weekend is over.

Yes Calcabrena is certainly a big pain. Not only does activating her waste a few minutes in battle time, but also can end a run outright if Cecil dies. I loaded a previous save at the halfway point (outside dwarf castle before cals, brenas, and Golbez) just to finish the run from yesterday for closure. Still no saves:

-No Calcabrena and another Golbez quick kill (swing with Cecil during Mist Dragon attack animation).
-Was able to kill Lugae before he operates Balnab with 2 jumps and 1 Titan.
-Rubicant died easily.
-Got the correct grinding battle FIRST TRY in the Element(s) room. It was a back attack but the order held.
-Elements and CPU went easily enough but I forgot to strip FooSoYa (still got Lunar Staff for Rosa).
-Zeromus went down right after 1st Black Hole. I've been using cure1 before the first and second Big Bang to ensure survival for Rydia and Cecil. This battle is a piece of cake now.

I'm so close to my first successful SS deathless run. Can't wait till I have more time, but the weekend is over.

Humble

Edit history:

Humble: 2012-05-01 01:04:35 pm

Humble: 2012-04-30 09:43:59 pm

2012-04-30 07:52:44 pm

To perceive is to suffer

I've done it!!! My first successful SS run of FFIV is complete in 4:05:23 real time.

After my first run today crapped out on Antlion (countered Cecil and Rydia over and over again leaving only Edward alive), my second was the one I've been fighting for. Here's how it went:

- Mist D. fight was my best ever. Cecil had 3 crits and the boss died right after the first mist.
- Bad npc luck throughout but manageable.
- Antlion killed Edward like he's supposed to and went down easily.
- Only Cecil survived Mom Bomb (close fight).
- Fabul went fast since Edward was killed by the first attack of the first fight.
- Milan battles were no problem especially with Blink.
- Baigan was a dick, but what else is new. Blink!
- Kainazzo gets dropped by a few attacks and a Lit-3.
- Dark Elf...nothing really needs to be said here. Easiest boss in the game.
- Magus Sisters were a pain since Fire-3 kept hitting the wrong sisters.
- Valvalas died quickly and without difficulty thanks to cover and slow.
- I avoided Calcabrena, but forgot to cast mute. Golbez crumbled right after Rydia showed.
- I got the Lugae quick kill again for the first battle. The second is easy as well.
- Rubicante was fast, but Rydia died.
- I got the grinding battle first try again somehow, but ended it early forcing me into another encounter.
- Elements are extremely simple.
- Very fast and scary CPU fight...I cast Meteo immediately, then Wall, White, and Nuke. CPU globed Edge and then Nuke killed him.
- Zeromus was going normally until Wall ran out early causing Rosa to Holy herself. I somehow pulled this one out by shear force of will and determination. Very touch and go and no one calculating damage for me.

During this run many distractions occured such as friends watching tv on the other side of the room, phone calls (3), and more. I will try to get this time down, but I need to improve my running atmosphere.

I've done it!!! My first successful SS run of FFIV is complete in 4:05:23 real time.

After my first run today crapped out on Antlion (countered Cecil and Rydia over and over again leaving only Edward alive), my second was the one I've been fighting for. Here's how it went:

- Mist D. fight was my best ever. Cecil had 3 crits and the boss died right after the first mist.
- Bad npc luck throughout but manageable.
- Antlion killed Edward like he's supposed to and went down easily.
- Only Cecil survived Mom Bomb (close fight).
- Fabul went fast since Edward was killed by the first attack of the first fight.
- Milan battles were no problem especially with Blink.
- Baigan was a dick, but what else is new. Blink!
- Kainazzo gets dropped by a few attacks and a Lit-3.
- Dark Elf...nothing really needs to be said here. Easiest boss in the game.
- Magus Sisters were a pain since Fire-3 kept hitting the wrong sisters.
- Valvalas died quickly and without difficulty thanks to cover and slow.
- I avoided Calcabrena, but forgot to cast mute. Golbez crumbled right after Rydia showed.
- I got the Lugae quick kill again for the first battle. The second is easy as well.
- Rubicante was fast, but Rydia died.
- I got the grinding battle first try again somehow, but ended it early forcing me into another encounter.
- Elements are extremely simple.
- Very fast and scary CPU fight...I cast Meteo immediately, then Wall, White, and Nuke. CPU globed Edge and then Nuke killed him.
- Zeromus was going normally until Wall ran out early causing Rosa to Holy herself. I somehow pulled this one out by shear force of will and determination. Very touch and go and no one calculating damage for me.

During this run many distractions occured such as friends watching tv on the other side of the room, phone calls (3), and more. I will try to get this time down, but I need to improve my running atmosphere.

Humble

2012-05-18 12:45:14 am

To perceive is to suffer

Summertime is here and runs have been solid. Some small problems that occur are extra steps (this sucks since 1 wrong step requires a second to correct it), occasional slow menu work, and slow boss battles when under the gun (forgetting to heal before bosses or killing Rubicant with Cecil triggering extra dialogue). I still hate the grinding section with a passion. Although I've had them work, back and surprise attacks with Alert/D. Machin usually have out of wack turn orders. Now I just run from any battle that isn't regular or first strike to save aggrevation or a reset.

I now skip getting a second ether in the early game and I change the battle speed to 1 after Golbez (while opening the menu to equip Rydia and warp). The best place to change it back to 2 seems to be right before Rubicant, it's very possible to defeat him on 1 but it's a little inconsistent.

I'm closer than ever now to achieving a submittable SS run, so I'm thinking of recording. Any advice on recording SNES games?

RaneofSOTN

2012-05-23 07:31:05 pm

I want off the ride....

just get a capture card or a solid DVD-R. If you get a DVD-R make sure it has a HDD or else your going to need to do a "disc split" at some point during the run (SDA wont penalize you for swapping the discs as long as it done right).

as for getting a submittable run... i was planning on jumping back on ff4 planning on making it the run do spd1 the whole time (except zeromus) as i'm sure that is where i can save the most time, and generally nothing is that risky.

If you are having trouble doing rubicant at spd1 you dont understand rubicant's timing too well. There are a few things that help you know when you should and shouldn't cast ice2/shiva and I can't explain them without a video... so maybe later.

but good luck. Your record (if you set one) wont stand. I will always be the king of ff4 and i plan to keep it that way.

Humble

2012-05-24 12:03:32 pm

To perceive is to suffer

Rubicante on battle spd. 1 is still about an 80% chance of victory. When I was practicing the game this way, the only way to lose is if you leave someone dead while he uses Glare to kill another. Also using speed 1 doesn't always mean the battle will go faster (it does for Elements, CPU, and random battles but not always the case against Ruby). However, it's still advantageous to be on 1 as long as possible with no added menu work. And I WILL set a record - nothing wrong with some friendly competition eh "king."

Humble

Edit history:

Humble: 2012-05-26 12:09:11 am

2012-05-26 12:05:43 am

To perceive is to suffer

Had a great run tonight which was crushed by FuSoYa failing to cast Weak...twice! I was in the grinding battle at 3 hours 5 minutes real time, cruising to the endgame when he failed early on in the fight (non-fatal), and late (so very fatal) with party members at very low HP.

Oh well, my best run yet was thwarted but it's not over yet. Bat speed 1 all the way sans Golbez.