Final Fantasy 1 Single Segment

Arrow

2006-02-26 11:30:14 am

Now a hit show on the CW

I'm pretty sure in the TAS, Warmech is encountered and run from.

Enhasa

2006-02-26 08:27:31 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

Btw, is it possible to run from Warmech? I only ask, as I hit him every single time I entered that odious hallway [and always defeated him], but he would efficiently ruin a run were you even to survive it, and his area is right at the end of the space level, meaning you'd have gone for a considerable duration without saving. I know this is down the line, but I was just curious if you knew.

Running from Warmech seemed to work out for me most of the time and was definitely much safer at low levels. Given that you don't meet him all of the time, I think it'll work out for GG. Fighting him would be a killer mostly because you still have Tiamat to fight, and of course it takes time in a speedrun. And besides, there is no saving. Re-read the topic title. Wink

Quote:

1) I'm still playing around with parties. 4xBM can do PNEOP the fastest, hands down. However, I am getting pretty far with 2xFighter, 2xRM without ANY extra leveling.

snorlax wrote a lot, but if you just look at the tier part (and insert lots of spaces before the last 3 ;)) I more or less agree.

Quote:

2) I might never class change with my current party at all. That would save a huge amount of time.

I am pretty sure that you wouldn't want to class change as well. It's not too hot for red mages anyway.

Quote:

3) You might not know enough about FF1 to know this: some fights are no-run and cannot be avoided, others are no-run and CAN be avoided. ZomBull is a good example. Also, the SORCERER floor in Ice Cave is extremely dangerous, but you can get in a random encounter just before the stairs to reset the step counter. Yeah, I'm manipulating in-game variables in real-time. It's not as hard as it sounds.

There was a whole lot of talk in the FF1 TAS thread about this, and I think it's general knowledge. Romhackers know the game well enough to know exactly what you can do (i.e. when to power cycle), but in a legit run there's still things you can do. As a little kid I would sail around in the ship to reset my fight counter, so I'm just glad I'm not the only one to have done this. Tongue

Keep up the good work and with luck you will have one of the most impressive RPG runs on the Internet!

[quote]Btw, is it possible to run from Warmech?  I only ask, as I hit him every single time I entered that odious hallway [and always defeated him], but he would efficiently ruin a run were you even to survive it, and his area is [i]right[/i] at the end of the space level, meaning you'd have gone for a considerable duration without saving.  I know this is down the line, but I was just curious if you knew.[/quote]
Running from Warmech seemed to work out for me most of the time and was definitely much safer at low levels. Given that you don't meet him all of the time, I think it'll work out for GG. Fighting him would be a killer mostly because [i]you still have Tiamat to fight[/i], and of course it takes time in a speedrun. And besides, there is no saving. Re-read the topic title. ;)

[quote]1) I'm still playing around with parties.  4xBM can do PNEOP the fastest, hands down.  However, I am getting pretty far with 2xFighter, 2xRM without ANY extra leveling.[/quote]
snorlax wrote a lot, but if you just look at the tier part (and insert lots of spaces before the last 3 ;)) I more or less agree.

[quote]2) I might never class change with my current party at all.  That would save a huge amount of time.[/quote]
I am pretty sure that you wouldn't want to class change as well. It's not too hot for red mages anyway.

[quote]3) You might not know enough about FF1 to know this: some fights are no-run and cannot be avoided, others are no-run and CAN be avoided.  ZomBull is a good example.  Also, the SORCERER floor in Ice Cave is extremely dangerous, but you can get in a random encounter just before the stairs to reset the step counter.  Yeah, I'm manipulating in-game variables in real-time.  It's not as hard as it sounds.[/quote]
There was a whole lot of talk in the FF1 TAS thread about this, and I think it's general knowledge. Romhackers know the game well enough to know exactly what you can do (i.e. when to power cycle), but in a legit run there's still things you can do. As a little kid I would sail around in the ship to reset my fight counter, so I'm just glad I'm not the only one to have done this. :P

Keep up the good work and with luck you will have one of the most impressive RPG runs on the Internet!

GooberGrape

2006-03-08 11:46:26 pm

Abobo smash!

I just learned the hardest part of a 4 hour single segment run:

a) it's not the nerves
b) it's not losing your route

it's

c) not going to the bathroom for 4 hours!!!

I'm gonna have to buy a freakin catheter or something. You never think about that.

-GG

Sir VG

2006-03-09 12:04:06 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Go during the tape/disc change. That's allowed.

Emptyeye

2006-03-09 03:41:22 am

Talk to the Hand

While I realize you were joking about the catheter thing, I've actually had one inside of me (Not for speedrunning purposes, you silly people), and the resulting agony (I believe the conversation I carried on for those two days mostly consisted of "get this fucking catheter out of me") would most assuredly NOT be worth any time you'd save.

So to keep this somewhat on-topic, is there a place you could potentially navigate from memory? I believe TSA actually to the bathroom at some point during his OoT run (Which is why he messes up learning one of the songs a couple times) that he didn't have to see the screen for, strictly speaking. Maybe during an elemental fight where you don't anticipate having to heal at all?

jimsfriend

2006-03-09 04:16:07 am

Like A Fox

Is not going to the bathroom for 4 hours really that hard?

spineshark

2006-03-09 05:29:21 am

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

Unfortunately that plan also requires that the toilet is close enough that you can input while you're..."occupied." Which, if this were me, would be impossible.

Not going to the bathroom for four hours isn't that hard, but I bet anything that it happens at the worst possible times while you're speed running.

Pweisger

2006-03-09 06:29:04 am

PwNzRd!

Sounds like I'll have to wear pants while watching this one... not like... I don't not wear pants while watching... runs... yeah, that should confuse them.

*Pats himself on back for successfully covering his ass (so to speak)*

^See what 3 boxes of Junior Mints does to a guy^

What a loser...

That hurt.

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-03-09 10:09:52 am

2006-03-09 09:33:12 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

Quote:

Running from Warmech seemed to work out for me most of the time and was definitely much safer at low levels. Given that you don't meet him all of the time, I think it'll work out for GG. Fighting him would be a killer mostly because you still have Tiamat to fight, and of course it takes time in a speedrun. And besides, there is no saving. Re-read the topic title. Wink

True, no saving, but not being able to use a tent [/cottage or house or whatever the other one is] was my intented point; he'd better maintain his characters' hp throughout the dungeon, in case he was forced to defeat Warmech; though yes, retrying the "segment" to save time would obviously be an obsolete issue. And also, as you were correct that there will be no saving, he'd have gone for a significantly longer time, then...

As for a restroom break, I would just wait for a fight that you could easily survive by just repeatedly selecting attack [distributed across the entire group of enemies or against one that would take a considerable amount of time to defeat, so none of that "attacking the vacancy" where an enemy used to be nonsense would occur]. The game's languid pace takes long enough that one could probably finish a bathroom break in the time for one round of attacks/heals and counterattacks. If nothing else, it's better than pausing, and it would allow you to take a break at any point [as might be problematic with Sir_VG's suggestion, although it's a good idea to remember], that is, if it's an area where monsters lurk... The only problem is that I can't recall if the in-game texts during the battles linger until you hit a button, or not...

[quote]
Running from Warmech seemed to work out for me most of the time and was definitely much safer at low levels. Given that you don't meet him all of the time, I think it'll work out for GG. Fighting him would be a killer mostly because [i]you still have Tiamat to fight[/i], and of course it takes time in a speedrun. And besides, there is no saving. Re-read the topic title. ;) [/quote]

True, no saving, but not being able to use a [i]tent[/i] [/cottage or house or whatever the other one is] was my intented point; he'd better maintain his characters' hp throughout the dungeon, in case he was forced to defeat Warmech; though yes, retrying the "segment" to save time would obviously be an obsolete issue. And also, as you were correct that there will be no saving, he'd have gone for a [i]significantly longer[/i] time, then...

As for a restroom break, I would just wait for a fight that you could easily survive by just repeatedly selecting attack [distributed across the entire group of enemies or against one that would take a considerable amount of time to defeat, so none of that "attacking the vacancy" where an enemy [i]used[/i] to be nonsense would occur].  The game's languid pace takes long enough that one could probably finish a bathroom break in the time for one round of attacks/heals and counterattacks.  If nothing else, it's better than pausing, and it would allow you to take a break at [i]any[/i] point [as might be problematic with Sir_VG's suggestion, although it's a good idea to remember], that is, if it's an area where monsters lurk...  The only problem is that I can't recall if the in-game texts during the battles linger until you hit a button, or not...

getter77

2006-03-09 05:48:19 pm

100% runs=great to watch

Just use a freaking mason jar...use the bathroom before playing in the first place...and don't eat or drink while playing. Problem solved. Mason jars are the ductape or the jar world....be resourceful Grin

8)

GooberGrape

2006-03-11 07:40:53 pm

Abobo smash!

Does anyone know the exact equation for physical damage calculation?

Ben Siron's fantastic FAQ tells us, for a normal, non-critical hit:

Damage = D - A
D = damage
A = absorb

For example's sake, my Fighter has 31 A, and a WIZARD has 30 D. I should take consistent 1's, but I don't, not at all. I get hit, and hard.

That seems a little too simplistic. That doesn't explain why the damage is random, either. I know FF1 does dice rolls to determine some random numbers, I'm sure there is a dice roll here too.

On a side note, a level 5 Fighter with a Short Sword hits twice (yay 32 hit%!) and that rocks.

-GG

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-03-13 06:23:15 am

2006-03-12 08:21:55 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

Is not going to the bathroom for 4 hours really that hard?

I fully agree. I used to think this was just some inside joke or something, but people are apparently semi-serious.

Quote:

True, no saving, but not being able to use a tent [/cottage or house or whatever the other one is] was my intented point; he'd better maintain his characters' hp throughout the dungeon, in case he was forced to defeat Warmech; though yes, retrying the "segment" to save time would obviously be an obsolete issue. And also, as you were correct that there will be no saving, he'd have gone for a significantly longer time, then...

As for a restroom break, I would just wait for a fight that you could easily survive by just repeatedly selecting attack [distributed across the entire group of enemies or against one that would take a considerable amount of time to defeat, so none of that "attacking the vacancy" where an enemy used to be nonsense would occur]. The game's languid pace takes long enough that one could probably finish a bathroom break in the time for one round of attacks/heals and counterattacks. If nothing else, it's better than pausing, and it would allow you to take a break at any point [as might be problematic with Sir_VG's suggestion, although it's a good idea to remember], that is, if it's an area where monsters lurk... The only problem is that I can't recall if the in-game texts during the battles linger until you hit a button, or not...

There's no way you would ever fight Warmech in a speedrun. If anything you would die while running.

Also, are you getting modern and older FF's mixed up? The modern ones are the ones you can just mash attack. I don't think you would be doing much of that in FF1 SS. And languid pace? Measure how long a round takes in FF1 compared to a modern RPG like Xenosaga. The battle text goes away by itself and you can't advance it. It is controlled by the 1-8 speed setting in the main menu.

Taking a break during tape change is definitely what you would do if it actually mattered, and the next best would be pausing since in a SS, the timer becomes irrelevant.

Quote:

Does anyone know the exact equation for physical damage calculation?

Ben Siron's fantastic FAQ tells us, for a normal, non-critical hit:

Damage = D - A
D = damage
A = absorb

Ask people on bisqwit's. mookish might know, and there's another guy, but I forgot his name. I also need to share my (platonic!) love of Ben Siron.

[quote]Is not going to the bathroom for 4 hours really that hard?[/quote]
I fully agree. I used to think this was just some inside joke or something, but people are apparently semi-serious.

[quote]

True, no saving, but not being able to use a [i]tent[/i] [/cottage or house or whatever the other one is] was my intented point; he'd better maintain his characters' hp throughout the dungeon, in case he was forced to defeat Warmech; though yes, retrying the "segment" to save time would obviously be an obsolete issue. And also, as you were correct that there will be no saving, he'd have gone for a [i]significantly longer[/i] time, then...

As for a restroom break, I would just wait for a fight that you could easily survive by just repeatedly selecting attack [distributed across the entire group of enemies or against one that would take a considerable amount of time to defeat, so none of that "attacking the vacancy" where an enemy [i]used[/i] to be nonsense would occur].  The game's languid pace takes long enough that one could probably finish a bathroom break in the time for one round of attacks/heals and counterattacks.  If nothing else, it's better than pausing, and it would allow you to take a break at [i]any[/i] point [as might be problematic with Sir_VG's suggestion, although it's a good idea to remember], that is, if it's an area where monsters lurk...  The only problem is that I can't recall if the in-game texts during the battles linger until you hit a button, or not...[/quote]
There's no way you would ever fight Warmech in a speedrun. If anything you would die while running.

Also, are you getting modern and older FF's mixed up? The modern ones are the ones you can just mash attack. I don't think you would be doing much of that in FF1 SS. And languid pace? Measure how long a round takes in FF1 compared to a modern RPG like Xenosaga. The battle text goes away by itself and you can't advance it. It is controlled by the 1-8 speed setting in the main menu.

Taking a break during tape change is definitely what you would do if it actually mattered, and the next best would be pausing since in a SS, the timer becomes irrelevant.

[quote]Does anyone know the exact equation for physical damage calculation?

Ben Siron's fantastic FAQ tells us, for a normal, non-critical hit:

Damage = D - A 
D = damage 
A = absorb[/quote]
Ask people on bisqwit's. mookish might know, and there's another guy, but I forgot his name. I also need to share my (platonic!) love of Ben Siron.

Zen

2006-03-13 06:03:38 am

Forward standard-by-ten .

So can I please go to the bathroom now?

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2006-03-13 07:05:45 am

2006-03-13 06:22:20 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Ya, I probably misunderstood a lot of what you were saying. Sad

Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I was completely kidding with that line, hence the smiley. I didn't realize anyone could think I was flaming you. Online communication is tough, lol.

I put that in there because I remember you debating different people (I think you're the most skilled at debating on SDA) and I thought the concept of you as a criminal mastermind creating things to debate about was funny. As in, you could take a completely wrong viewpoint for fun and still do a good job backing it up with your arguments. Tongue

Anyway, to avoid gumming up this thread (my fault, I know), how about we edit our posts to remove this junk? I should have just PM'd you that if anything.

Edit: Well, you didn't have to delete the whole post or anything. Tongue

The parts where you responded to what I was saying were fine. Anyway, I got your PM, and there's absolutely nothing to apologize for. Blame talking on the Internet or something. Smiley

Ya, I probably misunderstood a lot of what you were saying. :( Anyway, I just wanted you to know that I was completely kidding with that line, [i]hence the smiley[/i]. I didn't realize anyone could think I was flaming you. Online communication is tough, lol.

I put that in there because I remember you debating different people (I think you're the most skilled at debating on SDA) and I thought the concept of you as a criminal mastermind creating things to debate about was funny. As in, you could take a completely wrong viewpoint for fun and still do a good job backing it up with your arguments. :P Anyway, to avoid gumming up this thread (my fault, I know), how about we edit our posts to remove this junk? I should have just PM'd you that if anything.

Edit: Well, you didn't have to delete the whole post or anything. :P The parts where you responded to what I was saying were fine. Anyway, I got your PM, and there's absolutely nothing to apologize for. Blame talking on the Internet or something. :)

InsipidMuckyWater

Edit history:

InsipidMuckyWater: 2006-03-13 06:49:27 am

2006-03-13 06:35:08 am

Visit my profile to see my runs!

No no, let me just permanently say it for the world to hear:

I feel like the biggest jackass, ever.

Sure, we can delete the other crap, though. My above post is gone, without question.

*omg, irrevocable shame*

*the poor guy was just complimenting me, and I puked it back all over his face*

*lingering regret forever*

...

Let's just get back to Final Fantasy 1!!!

GooberGrape

Edit history:

GooberGrape: 2006-03-13 11:51:37 pm

2006-03-13 11:50:08 pm

Abobo smash!

Yay!

Anyway, I have put my 2xFighter, 2xRedMage party through the paces a bit...

It takes about an hour to hit level 5, buy your weapons/armor, and get the CROWN. It turns out, that by level 5 they are more or less invincible, it's just a matter of time and OGRE/CREEP hunting until you hit level 6 and advance to level 3 spellage.

An hour also just happens to be the amount of time it took me to get the black mage party fully equipped with FIR2's all round and fully abusing the PNEOP all to hell.

If anyone has a faster route to PNEOP, or any ideas how to beat ASTOS/VAMPIRE/LICH at a very early level, let me know. I tried ASTOS many times with physical damage, and his Absorb is just way too high. I might be able to crack it with Silver Swords, but 8000 gold without PNEOP is a lot of damn OGRE's.

I also tried White Mages. They can learn LIFE and HEL2, but have no real offense except the overpowered HARM. Their one asset is that I wouldn't have to do the 99 Heal dance near endgame, it would save me about 10-15 minutes. I also wouldn't have to Class Change to get the LIFE spell, which saves another 20-30 minutes. I could MUTE Astos and just tickle him to death, but that costs time too. Meh. At least they could kill LICH easily.

Right now, my route is as stands: (parenthesis involve Class Change)

Temple of Fiends - Garland
Pravoka - Pirates
Marsh Cave - Wizards - Crown
Northwest Castle - Astos - Crystal
Mayota - Herb
Elfland Castle - Key
Coneria - TNT
Dwarf Cave - Canal
Earth Cave - Vampire - Ruby
Titan's Tunnel - Sarda - Rod
Earth Cave - Lich
Crescent Lake - Canoe
(Castle of Ordeals - Tail)
(Bahamut's Room - Class Change)
Ice Cave - Eye - Floater
Desert south of Crescent Lake - Airship
Oasis - Bottle
Gaia - Oxyale
Onrac - Sea Shrine - Slab
Melmond - Dr. Unne
Lefein - Chime
Waterfall - Cube
Mirage Castle - Tiamat - (Adamant)
(Dwarf Cave - Xcalber)
Volcano - Kary
Sea Shrine - Kraken
ToF - 4 Fiends - Chaos

This is up for debate as I fill in which loots are where. For example, I'll need the BANE sword before I hit Tiamat (pretty sure this is actually in his house), and I'd like to have all 3 Ribbons asap, they totally rule.

I know from my solo Fighter run that Masmune + FAST + Defense sword (RUSE) = invincible damage machine. I just don't know if that still applies when you're low level and wearing pre-class-change gear. We'll see.

Questions, comments, snide remarks? Leave them here, or I think my email is public now as well..

-GG

Yay!

Anyway, I have put my 2xFighter, 2xRedMage party through the paces a bit...

It takes about an hour to hit level 5, buy your weapons/armor, and get the CROWN.  It turns out, that by level 5 they are more or less invincible, it's just a matter of time and OGRE/CREEP hunting until you hit level 6 and advance to level 3 spellage.

An hour also just happens to be the amount of time it took me to get the black mage party fully equipped with FIR2's all round and fully abusing the PNEOP all to hell.

If anyone has a faster route to PNEOP, or any ideas how to beat ASTOS/VAMPIRE/LICH at a very early level, let me know.  I tried ASTOS many times with physical damage, and his Absorb is just way too high.  I might be able to crack it with Silver Swords, but 8000 gold without PNEOP is a lot of damn OGRE's.

I also tried White Mages.  They can learn LIFE and HEL2, but have no real offense except the overpowered HARM.  Their one asset is that I wouldn't have to do the 99 Heal dance near endgame, it would save me about 10-15 minutes.  I also wouldn't have to Class Change to get the LIFE spell, which saves another 20-30 minutes.  I could MUTE Astos and just tickle him to death, but that costs time too.  Meh.  At least they could kill LICH easily.

Right now, my route is as stands: (parenthesis involve Class Change)

Temple of Fiends - Garland
Pravoka - Pirates
Marsh Cave - Wizards - Crown
Northwest Castle - Astos - Crystal
Mayota - Herb
Elfland Castle - Key
Coneria - TNT
Dwarf Cave - Canal
Earth Cave - Vampire - Ruby
Titan's Tunnel - Sarda - Rod
Earth Cave - Lich
Crescent Lake - Canoe
(Castle of Ordeals - Tail)
(Bahamut's Room - Class Change)
Ice Cave - Eye - Floater
Desert south of Crescent Lake - Airship
Oasis - Bottle
Gaia - Oxyale
Onrac - Sea Shrine - Slab
Melmond - Dr. Unne
Lefein - Chime
Waterfall - Cube
Mirage Castle - Tiamat - (Adamant)
(Dwarf Cave - Xcalber)
Volcano - Kary
Sea Shrine - Kraken
ToF - 4 Fiends - Chaos

This is up for debate as I fill in which loots are where.  For example, I'll need the BANE sword before I hit Tiamat (pretty sure this is actually in his house), and I'd like to have all 3 Ribbons asap, they totally rule.

I know from my solo Fighter run that Masmune + FAST + Defense sword (RUSE) = invincible damage machine.  I just don't know if that still applies when you're low level and wearing pre-class-change gear.  We'll see.

Questions, comments, snide remarks?  Leave them here, or I think my email is public now as well..

-GG

Enhasa

2006-03-14 07:09:19 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Do you actually need all those Heal potions? Put it this way. I don't think you'd need all 99 for the Temple of Fiends. That means that whenever you fill up to 99, that's being wasteful. I am dead serious; is LIFE actually needed? I know there are no Life potions in FF1 btw.

You tried 4 white mages?? At least you're thorough. Wink

Your route looks good, except think I'd find a way to skip class changing somehow. Is it worth getting the Xcalber btw? And what is the rationale for Kary before Kraken compared to the other way around? And although Ribbons are great and all, you want to sequence break for them??

Looks like you really know what you're doing though. Smiley

tmont

Edit history:

tmont: 2006-03-14 07:20:23 am

2006-03-14 07:19:37 am

Not going to school today

If you do go the Castle of Ordeals, you can get the Heal Staff and the BANE sword, there. Maybe. I haven't played this in a long time.

Also, the Heal staff will be useful, in that it will take the place of a heal potion, which equates to not buying as many of them. There's two of them in the game, although I don't remember exactly where either of them are (although I think one of them is in the Castle of Ordeals).

Hmmm, rereading this post, it was either helpful, obvious, not helpful, or plain wrong. Read at your own risk.

Emptyeye

2006-03-14 12:52:53 pm

Talk to the Hand

I think there was actually a third healing item at some point; the Heal Helm or something to that effect. I don't recall where on the route it is, mind you.

As for Kary before Kraken, maybe grabbing the Ice Sword out of the volcano. There's a second one in the game, I think, but as usual can't remember where offhand.

I don't understand why you're not just doing all of the Sea Shrine in one swoop while you're there getting the Slab. Is Kraken that hard at that point that you need to split it into two segments?

Enhasa

2006-03-14 08:53:30 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Quote:

Also, the Heal staff will be useful, in that it will take the place of a heal potion, which equates to not buying as many of them. There's two of them in the game, although I don't remember exactly where either of them are (although I think one of them is in the Castle of Ordeals).

AFAIK, the large amounts of Heal potions are mostly for between-battle healing. Since you can't do that with weapons, that wouldn't really help. During battle, you wouldn't want to waste your time healing if you can help it.

Quote:

As for Kary before Kraken, maybe grabbing the Ice Sword out of the volcano. There's a second one in the game, I think, but as usual can't remember where offhand.

I don't understand why you're not just doing all of the Sea Shrine in one swoop while you're there getting the Slab. Is Kraken that hard at that point that you need to split it into two segments?

Ice Sword is the one you have to run the gauntlet for right? At that point in the game I don't think it would be of any use, especially since you have to fight your way through to get it. Not worth the time, even though you would be bashing those guys quickly.

About the Sea Shrine, the deal there is getting the Slab and fighting Kraken are completely opposite paths, so they're almost like separate dungeons. You could get the Slab and then EXIT. That made me think of something though. I don't remember where else it'd be useful since there's orbs beyond the Fiends, but if you want EXIT that would imply that you'd want a white mage so that you can EXIT without class change. Who knows? Might help out with the Heal potions too.

I haven't played this game since I was a little kid either. Some help we are!

[quote]Also, the Heal staff will be useful, in that it will take the place of a heal potion, which equates to not buying as many of them.  There's two of them in the game, although I don't remember exactly where either of them are (although I think one of them is in the Castle of Ordeals).[/quote]
AFAIK, the large amounts of Heal potions are mostly for between-battle healing. Since you can't do that with weapons, that wouldn't really help. During battle, you wouldn't want to waste your time healing if you can help it.

[quote]As for Kary before Kraken, maybe grabbing the Ice Sword out of the volcano. There's a second one in the game, I think, but as usual can't remember where offhand.

I don't understand why you're not just doing all of the Sea Shrine in one swoop while you're there getting the Slab. Is Kraken that hard at that point that you need to split it into two segments?[/quote]
Ice Sword is the one you have to run the gauntlet for right? At that point in the game I don't think it would be of any use, especially since you have to fight your way through to get it. Not worth the time, even though you would be bashing those guys quickly.

About the Sea Shrine, the deal there is getting the Slab and fighting Kraken are completely opposite paths, so they're almost like separate dungeons. You could get the Slab and then EXIT. That made me think of something though. I don't remember where else it'd be useful since there's orbs beyond the Fiends, but if you want EXIT that would imply that you'd want a white mage so that you can EXIT without class change. Who knows? Might help out with the Heal potions too.

I haven't played this game since I was a little kid either. Some help we are!

snorlax

Edit history:

snorlax: 2006-03-15 03:20:58 am

2006-03-15 03:16:32 am

zzzzzzzzzz

There are two Ice Swords, one in the Gurgu Volcano and one in the Castle of Ordeals. Also in the Castle of Ordeals is the Heal Staff, the Zeus Gauntlet, and a Gold Bracelet. In addition to the Heal Staff, there are two Heal Helmets, one in the Mirage Tower and one in the Sky Castle. They can be helpful, but considering the time spent both acquiring them and using them, their usefulness in a speedrun is questionable. Only Wizards can use the EXIT and WARP spells, so the use of those spells can only be included in a run that incorporates class change.

For GooberGrape, if you are looking for a way to beat Astos sooner, you might want to consider picking up the ALIT spell, which may give you enough time to beat him. It only costs 400 G, which is the only reason I recommend it over AFIR. I'm also skeptical of doing a lot of levelling on the PNEOP. It just takes too much walking and luck. I would look for an easier automatic fight; the earliest examples I can think of are the Agama fights in the Volcano. I also recommend fighting Kraken right after getting the slab if you can to save walking time, unless the fastest way to beat the bosses and then beat the Temple of Fiends is to use that order. If the earlier fiends are any struggle though, you will almost certainly have to do much levelling before tackling the Temple of Fiends; there are a lot of fights you can't run from. I'm interested in your progress though.

There are two Ice Swords, one in the Gurgu Volcano and one in the Castle of Ordeals.  Also in the Castle of Ordeals is the Heal Staff, the Zeus Gauntlet, and a Gold Bracelet.  In addition to the Heal Staff, there are two Heal Helmets, one in the Mirage Tower and one in the Sky Castle.  They can be helpful, but considering the time spent both acquiring them and using them, their usefulness in a speedrun is questionable.  Only Wizards can use the EXIT and WARP spells, so the use of those spells can only be included in a run that incorporates class change.

For GooberGrape, if you are looking for a way to beat Astos sooner, you might want to consider picking up the ALIT spell, which may give you enough time to beat him.  It only costs 400 G, which is the only reason I recommend it over AFIR.  I'm also skeptical of doing a lot of levelling on the PNEOP.  It just takes too much walking and luck.  I would look for an easier automatic fight; the earliest examples I can think of are the Agama fights in the Volcano.  I also recommend fighting Kraken right after getting the slab if you can to save walking time, unless the fastest way to beat the bosses and then beat the Temple of Fiends is to use that order.  If the earlier fiends are any struggle though, you will almost certainly have to do much levelling before tackling the Temple of Fiends; there are a lot of fights you can't run from.  I'm interested in your progress though.

spineshark

2006-03-15 05:56:13 am

新世紀進歩的羽扇子音楽

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I haven't played this game since I was a little kid either. Some help we are!

At least I'm not trying to help...usually I beat Garland, then forget to buy antidotes and die near Matoya's cave.

Enhasa

2006-03-15 07:37:27 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

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Only Wizards can use the EXIT and WARP spells, so the use of those spells can only be included in a run that incorporates class change.

In that case, 2 Fighter + 2 Red Mage with class change sounds pretty good then.

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I'm also skeptical of doing a lot of levelling on the PNEOP. It just takes too much walking and luck.

Well, because of diminishing returns, you wouldn't want to do a lot of leveling anywhere. Wink

I agree with your point though, in that the in-between battle time spent looking for the next battle is always underrated.

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I also recommend fighting Kraken right after getting the slab if you can to save walking time, unless the fastest way to beat the bosses and then beat the Temple of Fiends is to use that order.

Since you remember the game better than I do, how much time do you waste backtracking if you break up the Sea Shrine into two trips? If you use WARP or EXIT? Because I do remember that Kraken and the Slab are in opposite directions from the entrance.

[quote]Only Wizards can use the EXIT and WARP spells, so the use of those spells can only be included in a run that incorporates class change.[/quote]
In that case, 2 Fighter + 2 Red Mage with class change sounds pretty good then.

[quote]I'm also skeptical of doing a lot of levelling on the PNEOP.  It just takes too much walking and luck.[/quote]
Well, because of diminishing returns, you wouldn't want to do a lot of leveling [i]anywhere[/i]. ;) I agree with your point though, in that the in-between battle time spent looking for the next battle is always underrated.

[quote]I also recommend fighting Kraken right after getting the slab if you can to save walking time, unless the fastest way to beat the bosses and then beat the Temple of Fiends is to use that order.[/quote]
Since you remember the game better than I do, how much time do you waste backtracking if you break up the Sea Shrine into two trips? If you use WARP or EXIT? Because I do remember that Kraken and the Slab are in opposite directions from the entrance.

GooberGrape

Edit history:

GooberGrape: 2006-03-16 12:03:44 am

2006-03-16 12:02:54 am

Abobo smash!

I realize the absolutions of "diminished returns" when it comes to leveling on PNEOP.

But I do know that it's the third most dangerous landblock on the world map, with a predictable encounter array, no total death encounters, and a quick and safe exit, so you can bet I'm going to use it.

The whole idea of powerleveling is to get ahead of the power curve, that is, make the game easy. I want to make so much money and XP here that I can coast through the rest of the game.

I have repeatedly reworked the first hour of gameplay toward this cause. I will lay down a no-savestates FCEU run of my first hour so y'all can critique, but I'm just about done as far as the early game is concerned, and with basically infinite GOLD/XP, the late game is just waiting for me to beat it.

-GG

Enhasa

2006-03-17 07:27:51 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

Well, you know a lot more about FF1 than I do, so this is in general and not about FF1. And you might know this already, in which case someone else might find out something.

The way most games work is: as you progress further in the game, the amount of XP you gain from fighting increases accordingly. Because of this, you want to get pass bosses at minimum levels, so that you can get to the next zone, with better XP. Diminishing returns comes in the fact that while let's say a fight at the beginning gives you 10 XP/min and 100 XP/min near the end. If you need 100 XP near the beginning to level up and 1000 XP at the end, you will gain your level in 10 minutes in both places. However, if you take 10 minutes gaining a level at the beginning so that you don't need to do it later, that doesn't work because your 100 XP from the beginning only means 1/10 of a level by the end. And also, going from say level 9 to 10 is mathematically more of a difference than 10 to 11, and so on. So, this means you want to always stay directly ON the curve, never ahead. The time you save from being higher leveled will be dwarfed by the time it takes you to get there.

Now, the PNEOP makes FF1's case much different. Once you hit it, the curve suddenly shifts way out. You always want to level at the most time efficient place, and for quite a long time, this will be the PNEOP. The reason why it isn't harmful to be way overpowered in comparison to the enemies is that, although you are progressing through the game, your optimal leveling place is not changing. Because progressing the game does not push out the curve any, until that point finally comes (never?) when there is a better place to level, it makes mathematical sense to do the PNEOP as much as needed, ASAP.

Of course, a final thing to consider here is that in a SS, it can be rather dangerous to always stay directly on the curve. So some leeway can be beneficial in order to reduce the possibility of run-ending bad luck.

Well, you know a lot more about FF1 than I do, so this is in general and not about FF1. And you might know this already, in which case someone else might find out something.

The way most games work is: as you progress further in the game, the amount of XP you gain from fighting increases accordingly. Because of this, you want to get pass bosses at minimum levels, so that you can get to the next zone, with better XP. Diminishing returns comes in the fact that while let's say a fight at the beginning gives you 10 XP/min and 100 XP/min near the end. If you need 100 XP near the beginning to level up and 1000 XP at the end, you will gain your level in 10 minutes in both places. However, if you take 10 minutes gaining a level at the beginning so that you don't need to do it later, that doesn't work because your 100 XP from the beginning only means 1/10 of a level by the end. And also, going from say level 9 to 10 is mathematically more of a difference than 10 to 11, and so on. So, this means you want to always stay directly ON the curve, never ahead. The time you save from being higher leveled will be dwarfed by the time it takes you to get there.

Now, the PNEOP makes FF1's case much different. Once you hit it, the curve suddenly shifts way out. You always want to level at the most time efficient place, and for quite a long time, this will be the PNEOP. The reason why it isn't harmful to be way overpowered in comparison to the enemies is that, although you are progressing through the game, your optimal leveling place is not changing. Because progressing the game does not push out the curve any, until that point finally comes (never?) when there is a better place to level, it makes mathematical sense to do the PNEOP as much as needed, ASAP.

Of course, a final thing to consider here is that in a SS, it can be rather dangerous to always stay directly on the curve. So some leeway can be beneficial in order to reduce the possibility of run-ending bad luck.