FF1(NES) Encounter frequency question

2014-07-15 07:38:08 am

As I have misplaced my cart and am currently waiting for a replacement cart, I've been examining some FF1 runs and trying to find an emulator that follows the same rules as a NES console in regards to battle counting. For this I use the data in the [ENCT] section of the game mechanics faq: http://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/522595-final-fantasy/faqs/57009
In this faq it says that for NES console you start at step index#41 but there are other typos/errors in the faq (step index#5 should be 40 not 49) so I don't know how accurate this is.

Time to look at Benoit Alain's run(http://speeddemosarchive.com/FinalFantasy.html)
From his early game, possible starting step indices are #12, #32, #42, and #62. Watching until elfland he gets in a geist fight 11 steps after a geist fight so I can conclude that the run starts at step index#32 since all other possibilities would have been 29 steps and not 11 there.
Conclusion: Battle index starts at #118, step index starts at #32.

Let's look at Feasel's run on twitch( http://www.twitch.tv/feasel/c/2952949)
He uses no resets, from his first battle to 1 step inside ToF is 24 steps along with watching several more battles leads to...
Conclusion: Battle index #1, step index #31. Not sure if this was on console.

Now on emulators, when I fight an encounter followed by a soft reset it moves the battle and step indices up by 1, the starting position of these indices varies however.

Bizhawk emulator can mimic Feasel's run so...
Conclusion: Battle index #1, step index #31.

Jnes 1.1 - did 32 battles to find if step index starts at 1 or 51.
Conclusion: Battle index starts at 2, step index starts at 1.

Nestopia 1.40 -
Conclusion: Battle index starts at 1, step index starts at 31

FCEUX 2.2.2
Conclusion: Battle index starts at 1, step index starts at 31

Does anyone have any more data on NES console numbers? If we assume Benoit Alain's run is definitely console and undo 117 resets taking us to battle index #1 and the step index should become #5? This doesn't seem quite right.

Thread title:

As I have misplaced my cart and am currently waiting for a replacement cart, I've been examining some FF1 runs and trying to find an emulator that follows the same rules as a NES console in regards to battle counting.  For this I use the data in the [ENCT] section of the game mechanics faq: http://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/522595-final-fantasy/faqs/57009
In this faq it says that for NES console you start at step index#41 but there are other typos/errors in the faq (step index#5 should be 40 not 49) so I don't know how accurate this is.

Time to look at Benoit Alain's run(http://speeddemosarchive.com/FinalFantasy.html) 
From his early game, possible starting step indices are #12, #32, #42, and #62.  Watching until elfland he gets in a geist fight 11 steps after a geist fight so I can conclude that the run starts at step index#32 since all other possibilities would have been 29 steps and not 11 there. 
Conclusion: Battle index starts at #118, step index starts at #32.

Let's look at Feasel's run on twitch( http://www.twitch.tv/feasel/c/2952949)
He uses no resets, from his first battle to 1 step inside ToF is 24 steps along with watching several more battles leads to... 
Conclusion: Battle index #1, step index #31.  Not sure if this was on console.

Now on emulators, when I fight an encounter followed by a soft reset it moves the battle and step indices up by 1, the starting position of these indices varies however.

Bizhawk emulator can mimic Feasel's run so...
Conclusion: Battle index #1, step index #31.

Jnes 1.1 - did 32 battles to find if step index starts at 1 or 51.
Conclusion: Battle index starts at 2, step index starts at 1.

Nestopia 1.40 - 
Conclusion: Battle index starts at 1, step index starts at 31

FCEUX 2.2.2
Conclusion: Battle index starts at 1, step index starts at 31

Does anyone have any more data on NES console numbers?  If we assume Benoit Alain's run is definitely console and undo 117 resets taking us to battle index #1 and the step index should become #5?  This doesn't seem quite right.

Sir VG

2014-07-15 07:59:56 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Yogidabear

2014-07-15 09:05:02 am

I was more interested in real NES console data I.E. I just turned on my NES and my battle index is _____ and my step index is ____.
I want to see if there is any pattern or variations/differences given different consoles/carts.

Yogidabear

2014-07-16 09:13:51 am

I wasn't considering using the ocean to freely skip step index without skipping battle index, given this any combination of starting battle/step index should be possible. Without seeing how people prep their run it is therefore impossible to know what their fresh power on indices are.

Anyone have the starting battle and step index for a fresh NES console power on?

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2014-07-16 09:44:30 am

2014-07-16 09:43:56 am

HELLO!

For Feasel's runs he specifically made sure to power down the system and leave it enough off so he would get a cold start, so whatever Feasel's runs are should be that.

Yogidabear

2014-07-16 10:35:19 am

Thanks for the info, I just remember reading somewhere that emulators and consoles don't start at the same place which is probably false since that faq was riddled with other errors. Based on what we know it looks like bizhawk, Nestopia, and FCEUX all have the same start as a NES console.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2014-07-16 11:34:39 am

2014-07-16 11:33:55 am

HELLO!

I thought Feasel said he *was* getting different results on emulator than on console though. I may be mis-remembering though.

inzult

2014-07-16 04:07:13 pm

different consoles give different results.

because of i don't know why.

ConHuevos

Edit history:

ConHuevos: 2014-07-17 01:20:17 pm

ConHuevos: 2014-07-17 01:19:50 pm

ConHuevos: 2014-07-17 12:49:44 pm

ConHuevos: 2014-07-17 12:49:24 pm

ConHuevos: 2014-07-17 12:48:30 pm

2014-07-17 12:48:18 pm

Ciento Dos Huevos

Quote from Yogidabear:

Thanks for the info, I just remember reading somewhere that emulators and consoles don't start at the same place which is probably false since that faq was riddled with other errors. Based on what we know it looks like bizhawk, Nestopia, and FCEUX all have the same start as a NES console.

It depends. Many factors go in. Emulators usually use a known working initial RAM state (and always this state) for determinism, this is 1 state known out of several. NES consoles have been produced with several RAM packages and different RAM manufacturers allowing different initial RAM states on startup.

This is the reason behind consoles and emulators being different. If a game relies on initial RAM of a console for it's RNG, this will affect it. Most games will usually clear the RAM and work from a blank slate. FF1 does not.

gyre

Edit history:

gyre: 2014-07-18 01:12:02 am

2014-07-18 01:10:50 am

Feasel's run is with a real NES and starting from a fresh power on. His system is probably closest to what I'd consider the ideal.

DJM and I have also done runs on real consoles from fresh power on. Here are some examples. You'll see that we're both 1 battle ahead of Feasel. DJM has the same number of steps as Feasel and I get a slightly different count. My run uses hard power resets so you'll see that the initial state is entirely consistent for me at every power on.

http://www.twitch.tv/djm858/c/3761103
http://www.twitch.tv/gyre_/c/3790066

I haven't streamed FF1 with it for a long time but my Famicom has the same starting battle as Feasel but is 4 steps ahead.

Benoit did setup prior to his run so it's not from power on. None of the active live streamers does this that I know of.

Oh yeah and at SGDQ I did a run on Gildersneeze's NES. It had the same starting battle as Feasel and I don't remember where it started on steps.

Yogidabear

2014-07-19 03:44:06 pm

Wow, at first glance it feels like DJM's console puts him at a disadvantage, killing 1 ghoul is faster than 4 zombies in ToF, and early gold farming would be faster if he could do kyzoku ogre kyzoku cycles by Elfland instead of just ogre kyzoku cycles. Are the DJM and Feasel runs different categories? If so, is resetting allowed in no-reset if it's only used to go back to battle#1 and not warp out of town or skip a battle completely? Hard to know whats going on when SDA is still on the Benoit run -_-

snorlax

2014-07-19 04:40:39 pm

zzzzzzzzzz

No, resetting is not allowed in a no reset run. There's something important to mention about this that hasn't been said in this thread. As presjpolk mentioned, your NES might need to cool down between hard resets to get the same base RNG. However, some systems do not need this cooldown period; in particular, it seems that toploader systems are much more consistent about the initial RNG after a hard reset than the older toaster systems. If you want to have a consistent route, a toploader will probably help your sanity while doing attempts.