European Speedster Assembly 2014

Edit history:

KVD: 2014-08-05 02:30:45 pm

2014-08-05 02:25:53 pm

What conflicts would that be exactly?
The thought that charity- and community orientation are mutually exclusive (even to some extent) is fairly narrowminded if you don't mind me saying. There is a near infinite number of ways to balance these aspects and a lot of them will have positive outcomes for both focal points. Finding the optimum could be tricky, but I'm fairly sure that the optimum is not at 0 charity. Tongue

Cool Matty

Edit history:

Cool Matty: 2014-08-05 02:36:18 pm

2014-08-05 02:28:40 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from KVD:

What conflicts would that be exactly?

Quote from Cool Matty:

2. If ESA stops trying to work with charities, they can focus on having a much better community event. Instead of donation management, you have more tech workers. There's no pressure to be professional/mature (see also: swearing). You won't have people constantly asking "what charity? what donation? there was prizes?". ESA needs to consider the charity themselves, and the way they represent them. When you take donations for a charity, these restrictions are important.

Basically, you can't (or rather, you shouldn't) be having an 18+ mature rating stream when you're representing a charity. Also, the effort put into managing the charity portion could be put into the other volunteer positions like tech, which were severely understaffed this year.

Quote from KVD:

The thought that charity- and community orientation are mutually exclusive (even to some extent) is fairly narrowminded if you don't mind me saying. There is a near infinite number of ways to balance these aspects and a lot of them will have positive outcomes for both focal points. Finding the optimum could be tricky, but I'm fairly sure that the optimum is not at 0 charity. Tongue

We'll probably have to agree to disagree, but I don't really think there's that many options here. It's either a more level, mature stream with charity logos/charity talk, or not.

[quote="KVD"]What conflicts would that be exactly?[/quote]
[quote="Cool Matty"]
2. If ESA stops trying to work with charities, they can focus on having a much better community event. Instead of donation management, you have more tech workers. There's no pressure to be professional/mature (see also: swearing). You won't have people constantly asking "what charity? what donation? there was prizes?". ESA needs to consider the charity themselves, and the way they represent them. When you take donations for a charity, these restrictions are important.
[/quote]

Basically, you can't (or rather, you shouldn't) be having an 18+ mature rating stream when you're representing a charity. Also, the effort put into managing the charity portion could be put into the other volunteer positions like tech, which were severely understaffed this year.

[quote="KVD"]
The thought that charity- and community orientation are mutually exclusive (even to some extent) is fairly narrowminded if you don't mind me saying. There is a near infinite number of ways to balance these aspects and a lot of them will have positive outcomes for both focal points. Finding the optimum could be tricky, but I'm fairly sure that the optimum is not at 0 charity. :P[/quote]

We'll probably have to agree to disagree, but I don't really think there's that many options here. It's either a more level, mature stream with charity logos/charity talk, or not.

PJ

2014-08-05 02:33:08 pm

Is PJ

Quote from AngryManjuu:

Quote from PJ:

Second stream:
There are a lot of people voicing their support for this in this thread, but I haven't been seeing any justifications in those posts. What did people enjoy about this? I am genuinely curious.

Since you are asking, I'll give two (big) reasons why I do:

1. Alternative sessions outside of speedrunning like TASing or glitching. I have always wondered how it is and how it's usually done so that gave me some good insight. Recaps were also very interesting to watch.

2. Simply the option to choose. Sometimes I was more interested in the games in blue stream, sometimes in yellow stream. Lack of people or energy was never a reason for me not to watch a game I like.

Thanks for your perspective!

In response to 1, I was definitely looking forward to that, especially having seen Tompa do the same thing for me at AGDQ2012. It was an incredible sight. However, it did not translate well to the stream. The main issue is that NONE of the text in the RAM watch window was visible on stream. He was making a point to show off how we can monitor all the different values in the game, but none of us could actually see those. I think there was some other eye-tracking something or other that somebody showed off. That's a pretty neat idea, but again the presentation was a bit....confusing. The recaps were really lacking in substance; the first one was like...5 hours after the yellow stream went live? There was basically nothing to recap so it was just awkward banter.

I do think it'd be cool to see some more things you wouldn't normally get to see, but the execution just wasn't quite there this time.

[quote="AngryManjuu"][quote="PJ"] [b]Second stream[/b]:
There are a lot of people voicing their support for this in this thread, but I haven't been seeing any justifications in those posts.  What did people enjoy about this?  I am genuinely curious.  [/quote]

Since you are asking, I'll give two (big) reasons why I do:

1. Alternative sessions outside of speedrunning like TASing or glitching. I have always wondered how it is and how it's usually done so that gave me some good insight. Recaps were also very interesting to watch.

2. Simply the option to choose. Sometimes I was more interested in the games in blue stream, sometimes in yellow stream. Lack of people or energy was never a reason for me not to watch a game I like.

[/quote]

Thanks for your perspective!

In response to 1, I was definitely looking forward to that, especially having seen Tompa do the same thing for me at AGDQ2012.  It was an incredible sight.  However, it did not translate well to the stream.  The main issue is that NONE of the text in the RAM watch window was visible on stream.  He was making a point to show off how we can monitor all the different values in the game, but none of us could actually see those.  I think there was some other eye-tracking something or other that somebody showed off.  That's a pretty neat idea, but again the presentation was a bit....confusing.  The recaps were really lacking in substance; the first one was like...5 hours after the yellow stream went live?  There was basically nothing to recap so it was just awkward banter.

I do think it'd be cool to see some more things you wouldn't normally get to see, but the execution just wasn't quite there this time.

KVD

Edit history:

KVD: 2014-08-05 04:08:05 pm

KVD: 2014-08-05 02:46:29 pm

KVD: 2014-08-05 02:42:19 pm

KVD: 2014-08-05 02:39:04 pm

KVD: 2014-08-05 02:37:57 pm

KVD: 2014-08-05 02:37:42 pm

KVD: 2014-08-05 02:35:11 pm

2014-08-05 02:33:38 pm

Quote from Cool Matty:

Basically, you can't (or rather, you shouldn't) be having an 18+ mature rating stream when you're representing a charity. Also, the effort put into managing the charity portion could be put into the other volunteer positions like tech, which were severely understaffed this year.

Quite frankly, I think it's presumptious to be speaking on behalf of the organisation (in this case DWB). They'll perfectly be able to specify what they find acceptable and what not. Thus far we've had no complaints and I don't think any of the content was anywhere close to 18+. Unless swearing is considered 18+ nowadays. If find the swearing = unappropriate argument very arbitrary, as by the same token you might as well say that any violent games should be considered unappropriate for charity marathons (then it's goodbye shooters, GTAs, etc). Also, the trade-off mentioned (managing charity portion and finding tech volunteers) is a virtually non-existant one. Those two management lines barely bite eachother at all.

EDIT: After reading Kennyman's excellent post, I feel that I should also specify the disclaimer that my posts do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the ESA organizers.

[quote="Cool Matty"]
Basically, you can't (or rather, you shouldn't) be having an 18+ mature rating stream when you're representing a charity. Also, the effort put into managing the charity portion could be put into the other volunteer positions like tech, which were severely understaffed this year.[/quote]

Quite frankly, I think it's presumptious to be speaking on behalf of the organisation (in this case DWB). They'll perfectly be able to specify what they find acceptable and what not. Thus far we've had no complaints and I don't think any of the content was anywhere close to 18+. Unless swearing is considered 18+ nowadays. If find the swearing = unappropriate argument very arbitrary, as by the same token you might as well say that any violent games should be considered unappropriate for charity marathons (then it's goodbye shooters, GTAs, etc). Also, the trade-off mentioned (managing charity portion and finding tech volunteers) is a virtually non-existant one. Those two management lines barely bite eachother at all.

EDIT: After reading Kennyman's excellent post, I feel that I should also specify the disclaimer that my posts do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the ESA organizers.

Sape

2014-08-05 02:34:22 pm

Posting so I don't forget this idea:
Have every runner make a short text explaining the game/run before (kinda like we did in the signups already) so the donation reader has something to read out during the setup time (if there arent any donations/ there will be donations at all next year). Obviously hope the setup times can be improved but should be a nice thing to get over the gaps and build some hype. The intro videos were fun but still hope we have something different next year.

As to general feedback, most things have been said already and I like the idea of donations being a background thing for people to support the runners with messages etc. but also hope that instead we can get more entertainment stuff in the downtimes or at least let people know whats going on and what to expect.

Maybe another thing to add, is work on commentary better. For example I was pretty excited for Gex64 but exe was the only commentator and his english wasnt that great. He did a pretty good job but would I have known in advance I would talked to him about the glitches/skips and help commentate so he can concentrate on the hard parts and not having to struggle for words. So in general work on communication in advance so we might get more commentators for the more unknown runs and maybe more donation readers (how about giving a small reward system for volunteers)

Posting so I don't forget this [b]idea[/b]:
Have every runner make a short text explaining the game/run before (kinda like we did in the signups already) so the donation reader has something to read out during the setup time (if there arent any donations/ there will be donations at all next year). Obviously hope the setup times can be improved but should be a nice thing to get over the gaps and build some hype. The intro videos were fun but still hope we have something different next year.

As to [b]general feedback[/b], most things have been said already and I like the idea of donations being a background thing for people to support the runners with messages etc. but also hope that instead we can get more entertainment stuff in the downtimes or at least let people know whats going on and what to expect.

Maybe another thing to add, is work on commentary better. For example I was pretty excited for Gex64 but exe was the only commentator and his english wasnt that great. He did a pretty good job but would I have known in advance I would talked to him about the glitches/skips and help commentate so he can concentrate on the hard parts and not having to struggle for words. So in general work on communication in advance so we might get more commentators for the more unknown runs and maybe more donation readers (how about giving a small reward system for volunteers)

KennyMan666

Edit history:

KennyMan666: 2014-08-05 03:04:49 pm

KennyMan666: 2014-08-05 02:52:35 pm

KennyMan666: 2014-08-05 02:51:16 pm

2014-08-05 02:42:31 pm

Precursor

Disclaimer: This post does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the ESA organizers! Neither does any other post I make in this thread.

On the days after the stream and the wrap-up we did, we talked about the possibility of making it just a speedrunning marathon with no charity aspect to it. A majority of people were of the opinion they want to keep the charity - the consensus seems (and this is only what I gathered from what people said about it) to be that while we would of course like to be able to draw the number of viewers we did without a charity, we would lose an absolute ton of PR if we did that. There's a pretty large gap between "bunch of nerds gather in a building for a week to play games fast" and "bunch of nerds gather in a building for a week to play games fast for charity". We've grown. Notch or no Notch, we've went from 3000 dollars, to 20000, to 36000. So we didn't quite double 2013, but that's still a nice increase. "What if ESA only made $15000? $5000? Are those acceptable points to stop?" No. The only point where the final donation total would be a reason to stop would be if we, after a one week long 24/7 hour streaming with two streams, had not gotten a single dollar in donations even with donation incentives and prizes. We got over 36000 dollars for Doctors Without Borders, all these speedrunning marathons grow every year, and more importantly, having the charity does not detract from the event in any way.

I know we're godless Europeans who will burn in hell for eternity because we're heathen sinners and we don't care anywhere near as much about swearing as America does, but we'll stop swearing on stream when the charity that we've given over fifty thousand dollars to tells us they don't want our money because we don't actually think much of when someone says fuck. I'm kinda surprised I only said it once (that I can remember) and it wasn't even a reaction swear.

ESA is a speedrunning event first and a charity event second, whereas *GDQ is the other way around. There's about as much reason for us to drop the charity aspect as there is for *GDQ to drop the speedrunning aspect.

More feedback from me eventually. There were things written down by staff during that aforementioned wrap-up and it or the points in it is probably getting posted somewhere eventually.

Disclaimer: This post does not necessarily reflect the opinions of the ESA organizers! Neither does any other post I make in this thread.

On the days after the stream and the wrap-up we did, we talked about the possibility of making it just a speedrunning marathon with no charity aspect to it. A majority of people were of the opinion they want to keep the charity - the consensus [i]seems[/i] (and this is only what I gathered from what people said about it) to be that while we would of course like to be able to draw the number of viewers we did without a charity, we would lose an absolute [i]ton[/i] of PR if we did that. There's a pretty large gap between "bunch of nerds gather in a building for a week to play games fast" and "bunch of nerds gather in a building for a week to play games fast for charity". We've grown. Notch or no Notch, we've went from 3000 dollars, to 20000, to 36000. So we didn't quite double 2013, but that's still a nice increase. "What if ESA only made $15000? $5000? Are those acceptable points to stop?" No. The only point where the final donation total would be a reason to stop would be if we, after a one week long 24/7 hour streaming with two streams, had not gotten a single dollar in donations even with donation incentives and prizes. We got over 36000 dollars for Doctors Without Borders, all these speedrunning marathons grow every year, and more importantly, having the charity does not detract from the event in [i]any way[/i].

I know we're godless Europeans who will burn in hell for eternity because we're heathen sinners and we don't care anywhere near as much about swearing as America does, but we'll stop swearing on stream when the charity that we've given over fifty thousand dollars to tells us they don't want our money because we don't actually think much of when someone says fuck. I'm kinda surprised I only said it once (that I can remember) and it wasn't even a reaction swear.

ESA is a speedrunning event first and a charity event second, whereas *GDQ is the other way around. There's about as much reason for us to drop the charity aspect as there is for *GDQ to drop the speedrunning aspect.

More feedback from me eventually. There were things written down by staff during that aforementioned wrap-up and it or the points in it is probably getting posted somewhere eventually.

TheMG2

2014-08-05 02:49:18 pm

There are other aspects to swearing BESIDES the charity. Swearing isn't exactly work-safe. I know plenty of gdq viewers watch from work and a first time ESA viewer might be from work too. I'm not saying this is a critical reason to stop swearing, its just something to be aware of. (And yes, I've seen people complain about swear heavy runs during GDQs for this reason)

Cool Matty

2014-08-05 02:54:47 pm

Crawlathon WR, get down on my level.

Quote from KennyMan666:

I know we're godless Europeans who will burn in hell for eternity because we're heathen sinners and we don't care anywhere near as much about swearing as America does, but we'll stop swearing on stream when the charity that we've given over fifty thousand dollars to tells us they don't want our money because we don't actually think much of when someone says fuck. I'm kinda surprised I only said it once (that I can remember) and it wasn't even a reaction swear.

I just want to touch on this and let the rest stand.

I couldn't care less about swearing personally, but your argument would probably hold more weight if you worked with MSF instead of its American branch. Swearing once or twice isn't a huge deal, but you and I know there were some seriously heavy swearing during this marathon, even for Europeans. Tongue

winkl0r

Edit history:

winkl0r: 2014-08-05 04:56:46 pm

winkl0r: 2014-08-05 04:46:00 pm

winkl0r: 2014-08-05 04:05:34 pm

2014-08-05 02:57:57 pm

Quick feedback that pops up my mind, I'll spare the complete explanation stuff to each point.

2 Streams, keep it
Yellow stream was great for more casual fun and had sometimes more people in the room than the blue stream Cheesy

Communal cooking
This was a great idea! Great food and I bet for some people the only fresh cooked food that week.
Swedish Sandwich Cake OP <3

Beamer in the main/kitchen room
I'd liked it to watch the games from there while eating.
Even though I avoided the streaming room because of this.

A dedicated monitor showing the twitch chat
A lot of laptop/smartphone using was prevented thanks to this

cleanliness
Even though I wasn't on kitchen duty, I've cleaned the place from time to time because I've needed the place.
GOODDAMNIT CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF YOU PIGS! A ton of cups, glasses and plates all over the place + half rotten pizza boxes....

which brings me to

max. attendee capacity
In my opinion we should NOT grew bigger regarding the amount of attendes.
Something inbetween from last and this year should be fine.

empty chairs during runs
A few times when there was no one in the streaming room watching the run, I've take a seat and watched the game even if I didn't know the game or the runner.
Encourage the runner and don't let them play alone!

If anyone ever fucked up/clogged up a toilet on purpose...
than better not show up again.
******* bastards

swearing
I've checked my Hard Reset run. OK there was some swearing, mostly out of frustration and sometimes unnecessary.
I've explained 2 pages before why I was so mad Sad

Bringing my own Laptop could have avoided the biggest issues(if i had one).
Again, sorry Flicky for beeing so much over estimate, I've seen your reaction in the VOD ^^'

We have a few minutes inbetween runs to fill?
Dance Dance Revolution!
Can be done whenever and combined with donations or ingame goals.
Even with bet wars for song/difficulty/runner.
I personally love the idea.

Quick feedback that pops up my mind, I'll spare the complete explanation stuff to each point.

[color="red"][b]2 Streams, keep it[/b][/color]
Yellow stream was great for more casual fun and had sometimes more people in the room than the blue stream :D

[color="red"][b]Communal cooking[/b][/color]
This was a great idea! Great food and I bet for some people the only fresh cooked food that week. 
Swedish Sandwich Cake OP <3

[color="red"][b]Beamer in the main/kitchen room[/b][/color]
I'd liked it to watch the games from there while eating.
Even though I avoided the streaming room because of this.

[color="red"][b]A dedicated monitor showing the twitch chat[/b][/color]
A lot of  laptop/smartphone using was prevented thanks to this

[color="red"][b]cleanliness[/b][/color]
Even though I wasn't on kitchen duty, I've cleaned the place from time to time because I've needed the place.
GOODDAMNIT CLEAN UP AFTER YOURSELF YOU PIGS! A ton of cups, glasses and plates all over the place + half rotten pizza boxes....

which brings me to

[color="red"][b]max. attendee capacity[/b][/color]
In my opinion we should NOT grew bigger regarding the amount of attendes.
Something inbetween from last and this year should be fine.

[color="red"][b]empty chairs during runs[/b][/color]
A few times when there was no one in the streaming room watching the run, I've take a seat and watched the game even if I didn't know the game or the runner.
Encourage the runner and don't let them play alone!

[color="red"][b]If anyone ever fucked up/clogged up a toilet on purpose...[/b][/color]
than better not show up again.
******* bastards

[color="red"][b]swearing[/b][/color]
I've checked my Hard Reset run. OK there was some swearing, mostly out of frustration and sometimes unnecessary.
I've explained 2 pages before why I was so mad :( Bringing my own Laptop could have avoided the biggest issues(if i had one).
Again, sorry Flicky for beeing so much over estimate, I've seen your reaction in the VOD ^^'

[color="red"][b]We have a few minutes inbetween runs to fill?[/b][/color]
Dance Dance Revolution!
Can be done whenever and combined with donations or ingame goals.
Even with bet wars for song/difficulty/runner.
I personally love the idea.

KennyMan666

2014-08-05 03:02:31 pm

Precursor

I didn't actually see any of the runs that have been pointed out as swear-heavy, and I don't remember heavy swearing during anything I watched - there might have been and I just didn't give a fuck. And the practice rooms of course had fifty times the swearing the actual stream did.

MSF or DWB, doesn't matter which branch we're working with for the argument. We're giving them money, our association with them gives us PR, if they tell us they think we swear too much for something associated with them, we'll do some long hard thinking about it. We can argue back and forth about it however much we like here simply due to cultural differences about how bad swearing is, but ultimately it's only word from the charity we're working with that will actually hold enough weight.

AdamAK

2014-08-05 03:04:50 pm

Totally rad

Quote from Cool Matty:

3. $36000 is definitely pretty good (although over 25% of that was just from Notch, keep in mind),

I'm in favour of dropping the charity aspect as well, but the above is a non-argument. How much of SGDQ14 came from humble bundle or huge donators? Pretty sure it's a gigantic percentage as well, but that hardly detracts from the financial success of SGDQ14.

To PJ, in relation to the Yellow stream:
I spent the majority of my time backstage during ESA, but most of the time I spent in a streaming room was in the Yellow stream, because the runs on there appealed to me more (e.g., GTA2 All Missions, GTA VC, MDK, SA any% race, and Saints Row 3). I think both streams had very nice schedules, despite the Blue stream receiving more attention, so I can imagine that there was an audience that gravitated towards Yellow over Blue, or at least saw it as a good alternative to the Blue stream.

KennyMan666

Edit history:

KennyMan666: 2014-08-05 03:19:18 pm

2014-08-05 03:18:04 pm

Precursor

The main thing with the yellow stream room being empty was that it ws a small room and the chair setup made it somewhat difficult to see the screen (at least when PC games were being played, maybe it was better for console games?) so even in the room a number of people watched at a screen on the tech table. But it was being shown on the projector right outside the room as well, in the kitchen/casual area, so there were still a lot of people at least half-watching it.

Things will be different next year and the current plan, according to the organizers, is to have the streaming going back to being in the House of Culture, renting the whole place as opposed to just part of it, as the space can be better utilized for our purposes there. Also everywhere there is colder than Nyeport so hopefully we won't sweat to death next year even with all the peoples.

AngryManjuu

2014-08-05 03:37:05 pm

Quote from PJ:

In response to 1, I was definitely looking forward to that, especially having seen Tompa do the same thing for me at AGDQ2012. It was an incredible sight. However, it did not translate well to the stream. The main issue is that NONE of the text in the RAM watch window was visible on stream. He was making a point to show off how we can monitor all the different values in the game, but none of us could actually see those. I think there was some other eye-tracking something or other that somebody showed off. That's a pretty neat idea, but again the presentation was a bit....confusing. The recaps were really lacking in substance; the first one was like...5 hours after the yellow stream went live? There was basically nothing to recap so it was just awkward banter.

Absolutely valid point, that execution in particular was a bit off, but still does not make the concept of a 2nd stream worse. A bit more preparation should fix it! About the recaps, what I liked about them was getting overview of runs you might have missed because 1) You did not have the time to watch it or 2) Did not think it would be that entertaining. In combination with uploaded vids from the marathon this would a very good method to catch up on the good stuff (I don't know whether runs will be uploaded later though). Secondly, what I found interesting was the personal views of the people doing the recap. Hey, I just like to listen to what others think Wink

Yes, the first recap was a few hours after the yellow stream went live but covered the blue stream as well, as did all recaps actually.

also....people watch speedrun marathons during work? o_O

[quote="PJ"]
In response to 1, I was definitely looking forward to that, especially having seen Tompa do the same thing for me at AGDQ2012.  It was an incredible sight.  However, it did not translate well to the stream.  The main issue is that NONE of the text in the RAM watch window was visible on stream.  He was making a point to show off how we can monitor all the different values in the game, but none of us could actually see those.  I think there was some other eye-tracking something or other that somebody showed off.  That's a pretty neat idea, but again the presentation was a bit....confusing.  The recaps were really lacking in substance; the first one was like...5 hours after the yellow stream went live?  There was basically nothing to recap so it was just awkward banter.
[/quote]

Absolutely valid point, that execution in particular was a bit off, but still does not make the concept of a 2nd stream worse. A bit more preparation should fix it! About the recaps, what I  liked about them was getting overview of runs you might have missed because 1) You did not have the time to watch it or 2) Did not think it would be that entertaining. In combination with uploaded vids from the marathon this would a very good method to catch up on the good stuff (I don't know whether runs will be uploaded later though). Secondly, what I found interesting was the personal views of the people doing the recap. Hey, I just like to listen to what others think ;) Yes, the first recap was a few hours after the yellow stream went live but covered the blue stream as well, as did all recaps actually.

also....people watch speedrun marathons during work? o_O

TheMG2

2014-08-05 03:41:16 pm

If people don't have other things to work on, they'll go do other things.

AncientAE

2014-08-05 03:54:41 pm

Quote from Omnigamer:

Quote from curseddolls:

I don't think you ever understood anything of what was going on so because of that you in a way have no right to complain.
During Zwajkens run before we started I asked him "is it ok if i use my mobile to read the chats questions and ask him them
during his run like a Q & A". Zwajken agreed and said it could be a nice touch to the stream and so we went for it.

During Simpsons Hit n Run I asked zoton several times if he was fine, and he had no "hate" or "dislike" to it what so ever.
He actually laughed to much of the things we did and was in the moment as much as the rest of us where.
If he had disliked it we would obviously had quiet down a lot but since he where fine with it we all had a fun and great time.

The moment you saw me with mobile on the stream (which actually was not that many times),
could it actually be because I am a moderator of the event and would like to know what is going on
in case it is something we should know so I could maybe help fix it as fast as possible?

Please think before you write.
As many stated during the run of Eternal Darkness.

Thank you

Cursed

Whether being on the phone or not was useful for something happening in the run is irrelevant. In this case, Duke was annoyed about it so he stated it. The point is that being on camera with a phone takes away from the atmosphere and makes the audience seem disinterested. I personally agree with him; being on camera with a phone is a negative as far as viewers are concerned, regardless of whether you think it's useful to the runs or the runners are OK with it.

Pretty much this. Why on earth would "being a mod" justify sitting with the phone during a run? Computers work wonders. Mistakes happen and considering viewers dont know whats going on behind the scenes etc it just gives a meh feeling seeing people with phones up

[quote="Omnigamer"][quote="curseddolls"]

I don't think you ever understood anything of what was going on so because of that you in a way have no right to complain.
During Zwajkens run before we started I asked him "is it ok if i use my mobile to read the chats questions and ask him them
during his run like a Q & A". Zwajken agreed and said it could be a nice touch to the stream and so we went for it.

During Simpsons Hit n Run I asked zoton several times if he was fine, and he had no "hate" or "dislike" to it what so ever.
He actually laughed to much of the things we did and was in the moment as much as the rest of us where.
If he had disliked it we would obviously had quiet down a lot but since he where fine with it we all had a fun and great time.

The moment you saw me with mobile on the stream (which actually was not that many times),
could it actually be because I am a moderator of the event and would like to know what is going on
in case it is something we should know so I could maybe help fix it as fast as possible?

Please think before you write.
As many stated during the run of Eternal Darkness.

Thank you

Cursed
[/quote]

Whether being on the phone or not was useful for something happening in the run is irrelevant. In this case, Duke was annoyed about it so he stated it. The point is that being on camera with a phone takes away from the atmosphere and makes the audience seem disinterested. I personally agree with him; being on camera with a phone is a negative as far as viewers are concerned, regardless of whether you think it's useful to the runs or the runners are OK with it.[/quote]

Pretty much this. Why on earth would "being a mod" justify sitting with the phone during a run? Computers work wonders. Mistakes happen and considering viewers dont know whats going on behind the scenes etc it just gives a meh feeling seeing people with phones up

Omnigamer

2014-08-05 04:06:16 pm

All the things

Here's a side thought, and bringing up some points from earlier in the thread:

-Throughout the event, it seemed that viewership was on decline. For comparison, the numbers I saw were comparable to TPP every time I looked. Even with Twitch front page plugging, the viewer count seemed really low. I think some further thought should be put into just why viewer performance struggled.
-Charity is a tricky thing in that it means people have to trust you, the middle man, enough to feel that their contribution will end up going to the right place. Technically this is not a problem since it all goes directly to the charity via PayPal anyway, but in this sense image is very important. Imagine a theoretical viewer, initially ambivalent to the event and donating. They arrive on the stream and see a run of a game they like. If the event is clearly in support of a charity and they plug it, that's an enticing piece for actually eliciting donations since the viewer is invested in the prior run. If they do actually donate, they are now invested in the success of the event itself and are more likely to check back at later times. If the charity is not plugged or kept in the backdrop, or the stream is unable to establish that feeling of "trust," I think it is very likely that this viewer would simply leave and not donate or return to the stream. Simply put, keeping the charity secondary reduces the stream's stickiness for fresh viewers.
-I'll also consider the alternate case: no charity is involved. If the focus is on the games and people, a different dynamic has to be worked out. It's the same dynamic behind many popular streamers: energy and personality. There's no opportunity for viewers to become monetarily invested, but at the same time it also means that the metaphorical cost of entry is reduced. A new viewer arrives to the stream with the same situation presented above, sans any charity at all. If the event is exciting and the passion can be felt, it is infectious. They want to watch more, regardless of whether it's something they know, because it is fun to watch. This leads to viral trending and some other things that all around should boost viewership. Consider events such as EVO, where the hype and energy is tangible and this carries to a huge number of consistent viewers. If the energy or passion is not there, however, things will fall flat. It will be interesting for some of the time, but not worth sticking around for the whole thing for the case of many random viewers.
-The points of many people saying to drop the charity, I feel, are that this marathon lost some of its passion and energy to incorporate the charity aspect while simultaneously failing to capture the full trust of would-be donors. Charity is a great thing, but at the same time it is not a requirement for the stream to be successful. If the fun and excitement can be kept in the forefront, then a charity-less event can succeed just as well. Energy/community and charity are not mutually exclusive, but trying to do both can be difficult to balance and if not handled well can negatively impact the overall success of the event from both perspectives.
-I understand that a lot of the above is purely hypothetical and there are many other ways to think of this. Even so, I want to use it as a means to bring up that there's more to thinking about whether or not supporting a charity is appropriate for a given event. It does not come down to just a list of pros and cons, but rather whether it is something that achieves the goals of the events better.

[/grain_of_salt]

Here's a side thought, and bringing up some points from earlier in the thread:

-Throughout the event, it seemed that viewership was on decline. For comparison, the numbers I saw were comparable to TPP every time I looked. Even with Twitch front page plugging, the viewer count seemed really low. I think some further thought should be put into just why viewer performance struggled.
-Charity is a tricky thing in that it means people have to trust you, the middle man, enough to feel that their contribution will end up going to the right place. Technically this is not a problem since it all goes directly to the charity via PayPal anyway, but in this sense image is very important. Imagine a theoretical viewer, initially ambivalent to the event and donating. They arrive on the stream and see a run of a game they like. If the event is clearly in support of a charity and they plug it, that's an enticing piece for actually eliciting donations since the viewer is invested in the prior run. If they do actually donate, they are now invested in the success of the event itself and are more likely to check back at later times. If the charity is not plugged or kept in the backdrop, or the stream is unable to establish that feeling of "trust," I think it is very likely that this viewer would simply leave and not donate or return to the stream. Simply put, keeping the charity secondary reduces the stream's stickiness for fresh viewers.
-I'll also consider the alternate case: no charity is involved. If the focus is on the games and people, a different dynamic has to be worked out. It's the same dynamic behind many popular streamers: energy and personality. There's no opportunity for viewers to become monetarily invested, but at the same time it also means that the metaphorical cost of entry is reduced. A new viewer arrives to the stream with the same situation presented above, sans any charity at all. If the event is exciting and the passion can be felt, it is infectious. They want to watch more, regardless of whether it's something they know, because it is [i]fun[/i] to watch. This leads to viral trending and some other things that all around should boost viewership. Consider events such as EVO, where the hype and energy is tangible and this carries to a huge number of consistent viewers. If the energy or passion is not there, however, things will fall flat. It will be interesting for some of the time, but not worth sticking around for the whole thing for the case of many random viewers.
-The points of many people saying to drop the charity, I feel, are that this marathon lost some of its passion and energy to incorporate the charity aspect while simultaneously failing to capture the full trust of would-be donors. Charity is a great thing, but at the same time it is not a requirement for the stream to be successful. If the fun and excitement can be kept in the forefront, then a charity-less event can succeed just as well. Energy/community and charity are not mutually exclusive, but trying to do both can be difficult to balance and if not handled well can negatively impact the overall success of the event from both perspectives.
-I understand that a lot of the above is purely hypothetical and there are many other ways to think of this. Even so, I want to use it as a means to bring up that there's more to thinking about whether or not supporting a charity is appropriate for a given event. It does not come down to just a list of pros and cons, but rather whether it is something that achieves the goals of the events better.

[/grain_of_salt]

AMVX

Edit history:

AMVX: 2014-08-05 04:42:09 pm

AMVX: 2014-08-05 04:34:55 pm

AMVX: 2014-08-05 04:34:10 pm

AMVX: 2014-08-05 04:33:59 pm

2014-08-05 04:24:24 pm

www.twitch.tv/amvx

THIS POST IS ONLY A REFLECTION OF MY PERSPECTIVES AND OPINIONS.

GOOD:
- The people.
- Game variety.
- Communal meals worked very well as both a concept and practice.
- Layouts.
- Breakfasts.
- Outside activities
- Competitions and interactions of runners off stream
- Education for both game and technical aspects - sharing of knowledge
- Vegetable controllers

BAD:
- I knew it would happen before I got here, but it cleaning up after oneself is so paramount. The place was a constant disgusting mess.
- Rostering was left too late, and too loose for the event.
- Laziness on behalf on runners to make sure their equipment and their game was go to go for their game, and turning up with time to spare.
- Lack of cross-communication and promotion of other stream.
- Specially marked and dedicated running consoles & PC required.

The rostering and volunteering sheet I believe should have appeared earlier, and this would have solved a massive host of issues that I am going to flag. I ended up making up whole bags of bottles and cans, having to go round with trays to collect glasses more than one - not to mention cleaning the kitchen. It's a very bad habit to get into, and I cannot believe that people willingly choose to ignore their surroundings just because they are somewhere that is not home.

Similarly, I was a little disappointed at people not willing to jump behind the microphone to do donation reading, chat moderation, helping out cooking and running tech. In fact, I was a little disappointed in the fact that so many people turned up for the tech discussion at the start of the event, but only about 8 of those total people actually were active in making sure technical aspects were covered. This is not a reflection on the organisation - that part was there - but individual laziness.

Quote from PJ:

Audio:
I'm seeing a lot of praise for the audio levels/balance, setup, whatever. I'm just not really where these comments are coming from. Every run that I watched had a nearly inaudible commentator and a completely overwhelming host. Bionic Commando: Rearmed had like 40 seconds of loud static coming from Kennyman's mic, which was eventually taken care of. Most of the games I watched were totally inaudible. The levels were just all over the place, but I didn't watch a run where it seemed appropriate. Even in some of the intermission interviews the levels were way off, and those should be the easiest to manage. The one in the middle of the Mega Man block with flicky and Primal was impossible to listen to because flicky's mic was cranked up so loud it was overpeaking on every syllable. I wanted to listen to the interview but I had to mute it because it was literally hurting.

A few runners sat on the XLR connector for their microphone. I don't know if this was the case here, but it does sound like it. That is just simple education to fix that issue.

Now, without sounding too rude here; the levels were not 'all over the place'. Every time I came in and checked the audio, runner was normalised, co-commentators and host slightly lower, and game slightly lower again. Very rarely after initial game set up did audio levels need to be adjusted. I personally not only checked master outputs if I was in the tech room, but I constantly loaded up the Twitch stream, to hear the final mix. It sounded excellent for the vast majority of the event. I highly recommended you go back and compare this to other events, because this marathon's audio was fucking good.

There was a mic on the crowd, but it also does come down to how loud the actual crowd are. The headset mics are quite sensitive and will pick up that kind of clapping very easily. The secondary stream, the room was too small to have a mic that wouldn't pick up all the audio from outside/the kitchen so it was impractical to have a crowd mic there, when the lapel mics were getting the audio anyway. This also comes into microphone technique for the hosts, some spoke to close to microphones. Long story short, people aren't across it enough to know what they are doing wrong and right. Sadly I, and the others that do know, cannot be everywhere at once. I can only speak for the times that I was actively there.

I would love for a randomised playlist to be played in set up breaks as well, in order to break it up a bit more. It relieves the wait a little, and offering a nice backdrop for any announcements that may happen.

Low runner volume is because many runners either didn't speak up to a normal conversation voice, or they positioned the microphone in a terrible position (if using a lapel mic). The headset mics were purchased with the intent to remove this issue, so the mic was in a fixed location. The sad part is that runners simply did not take care with these, and even though they are very good and very expensive mics, a couple ended up getting slightly damaged. What I am talking about here is not a difficult concept and everyone here that streams should know the basics of microphone care.

Overall, I was very happy with how audio went, and if it was good for 95% of a week long marathon, I will accept that for the time being - naturally we all want 100% but when you have 250 runners to educate about it, there will be small issues here and there. This comment being said, with a 24/7 marathon, you can cover every run yourself and it does have to be a team effort.

Quote from Zzzlol94:

So the tech stuff could be even better, it always can. Not going to give the feedback here.

I have to agree with this. There are always going to be some flaws with a community run marathon. But the ideal is to be worked towards, which I am 100% confident and thrilled that everyone here wants to work towards.

Off that note, runners should also realise that there is a schedule, and we are to stick as close a possible to it. One run in particular, the runner turned up 15 minutes late, citing to me "I lost time practicing" - NOT FUCKING GOOD ENOUGH. That is the most bullshit weak excuse I have heard, and it's just not acceptable at any event like this. You should be turning up minimum 15 minutes before your run, equipment in hand and ready to go. I have spoken to who I needed to about possible solutions to this in future.

I think the general consensus is that there is some fine tuning for the layouts, and I do agree with some very minor changes but for 99% of it they are fucking fantastic. Teething issues for these news ones for sure, but it's a learn and move on experience. I am committed to helping out where I can technically and everything media stream related - doesn't matter if it's a layout adjustment or a technical plan - all I need to be is asked for next year.

Not going to mention on the language, the dual streams, the empty chairs at times, phones on stream or all of those other topics. Since none of them bother me, and if a runner has the issue, it is their right to flag it.

I was very disappointed in viewer numbers, even though the charity made more money this year than last year. It is something to keep in mind, but as far as ditching the charity/persisting with it, I strongly believe it is not my place to comment, and that is up to the event organisers with what they choose to do. My simple opinion is that is should stay, some money is better than no money.

After re-reading back through everything I have written, most of my issues lie with people and their habits and nothing that would be exclusive to this event.

I have not been to a GDQ, so I cannot comment or compare them to this just yet. I will say that I certainly do hope that people learn for next year, and not repeat the same silly mistakes they have been told about this time.

I will more than happily be back next year, because for a marathon, ESA in my mind was a great event with plenty of development potential as it continues to grow.

THIS POST IS ONLY A REFLECTION OF MY PERSPECTIVES AND OPINIONS.

GOOD:
- The people.
- Game variety.
- Communal meals worked very well as both a concept and practice.
- Layouts.
- Breakfasts.
- Outside activities
- Competitions and interactions of runners off stream
- Education for both game and technical aspects - sharing of knowledge
- Vegetable controllers

BAD:
- I knew it would happen before I got here, but it cleaning up after oneself is so paramount. The place was a constant disgusting mess.
- Rostering was left too late, and too loose for the event.
- Laziness on behalf on runners to make sure their equipment and their game was go to go for their game, and turning up with time to spare.
- Lack of cross-communication and promotion of other stream.
- Specially marked and dedicated running consoles & PC required.

The rostering and volunteering sheet I believe should have appeared earlier, and this would have solved a massive host of issues that I am going to flag. I ended up making up whole bags of bottles and cans, having to go round with trays to collect glasses more than one - not to mention cleaning the kitchen. It's a very bad habit to get into, and I cannot believe that people willingly choose to ignore their surroundings just because they are somewhere that is not home.

Similarly, I was a little disappointed at people not willing to jump behind the microphone to do donation reading, chat moderation, helping out cooking and running tech. In fact, I was a little disappointed in the fact that so many people turned up for the tech discussion at the start of the event, but only about 8 of those total people actually were active in making sure technical aspects were covered. This is not a reflection on the organisation - that part was there - but individual laziness.

[quote="PJ"][b]Audio[/b]:
I'm seeing a lot of praise for the audio levels/balance, setup, whatever.  I'm just not really where these comments are coming from.  Every run that I watched had a nearly inaudible commentator and a completely overwhelming host.  Bionic Commando: Rearmed had like 40 seconds of loud static coming from Kennyman's mic, which was eventually taken care of.  Most of the games I watched were totally inaudible.  The levels were just all over the place, but I didn't watch a run where it seemed appropriate.  Even in some of the intermission interviews the levels were way off, and those should be the easiest to manage.  The one in the middle of the Mega Man block with flicky and Primal was impossible to listen to because flicky's mic was cranked up so loud it was overpeaking on every syllable.  I wanted to listen to the interview but I had to mute it because it was literally hurting.[/quote]

A few runners sat on the XLR connector for their microphone. I don't know if this was the case here, but it does sound like it. That is just simple education to fix that issue.

Now, without sounding too rude here; the levels were not 'all over the place'. Every time I came in and checked the audio, runner was normalised, co-commentators and host slightly lower, and game slightly lower again. Very rarely after initial game set up did audio levels need to be adjusted. I personally not only checked master outputs if I was in the tech room, but I constantly loaded up the Twitch stream, to hear the final mix. It sounded excellent for the vast majority of the event. I highly recommended you go back and compare this to other events, because this marathon's audio was fucking good.

There was a mic on the crowd, but it also does come down to how loud the actual crowd are. The headset mics are quite sensitive and will pick up that kind of clapping very easily. The secondary stream, the room was too small to have a mic that wouldn't pick up all the audio from outside/the kitchen so it was impractical to have a crowd mic there, when the lapel mics were getting the audio anyway. This also comes into microphone technique for the hosts, some spoke to close to microphones. Long story short, people aren't across it enough to know what they are doing wrong and right. Sadly I, and the others that do know, cannot be everywhere at once. I can only speak for the times that I was actively there.

I would love for a randomised playlist to be played in set up breaks as well, in order to break it up a bit more. It relieves the wait a little, and offering a nice backdrop for any announcements that may happen.

Low runner volume is because many runners either didn't speak up to a normal conversation voice, or they positioned the microphone in a terrible position (if using a lapel mic). The headset mics were purchased with the intent to remove this issue, so the mic was in a fixed location. The sad part is that runners simply did not take care with these, and even though they are very good and very expensive mics, a couple ended up getting slightly damaged. What I am talking about here is not a difficult concept and everyone here that streams should know the basics of microphone care.

Overall, I was very happy with how audio went, and if it was good for 95% of a week long marathon, I will accept that for the time being - naturally we all want 100% but when you have 250 runners to educate about it, there will be small issues here and there. This comment being said, with a 24/7 marathon, you can cover every run yourself and it does have to be a team effort.

[quote="Zzzlol94"]So the tech stuff could be even better, it always can. Not going to give the feedback here.[/quote]

I have to agree with this. There are always going to be some flaws with a community run marathon. But the ideal is to be worked towards, which I am 100% confident and thrilled that everyone here wants to work towards.

Off that note, runners should also realise that there is a schedule, and we are to stick as close a possible to it. One run in particular, the runner turned up 15 minutes late, citing to me "I lost time practicing" - NOT FUCKING GOOD ENOUGH. That is the most bullshit weak excuse I have heard, and it's just not acceptable at any event like this. You should be turning up minimum 15 minutes before your run, equipment in hand and ready to go. I have spoken to who I needed to about possible solutions to this in future.

I think the general consensus is that there is some fine tuning for the layouts, and I do agree with some very minor changes but for 99% of it they are fucking fantastic. Teething issues for these news ones for sure, but it's a learn and move on experience. I am committed to helping out where I can technically and everything media stream related - doesn't matter if it's a layout adjustment or a technical plan - all I need to be is asked for next year.

Not going to mention on the language, the dual streams, the empty chairs at times, phones on stream or all of those other topics. Since none of them bother me, and if a runner has the issue, it is their right to flag it.

I was very disappointed in viewer numbers, even though the charity made more money this year than last year. It is something to keep in mind, but as far as ditching the charity/persisting with it, I strongly believe it is not my place to comment, and that is up to the event organisers with what they choose to do. My simple opinion is that is should stay, some money is better than no money.

After re-reading back through everything I have written, most of my issues lie with people and their habits and [b]nothing that would be exclusive to this event.[/b]

I have not been to a GDQ, so I cannot comment or compare them to this just yet. I will say that I certainly do hope that people learn for next year, and not repeat the same silly mistakes they have been told about this time.

I will more than happily be back next year, because for a marathon, ESA in my mind was a great event with plenty of development potential as it continues to grow.

Partystar

Edit history:

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:25:14 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:24:31 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:22:57 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:21:19 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:20:21 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:17:43 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:16:38 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:15:47 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:14:29 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:13:33 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:13:08 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:11:02 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:06:26 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:03:06 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 05:01:41 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 04:53:29 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 04:49:17 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 04:48:16 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 04:45:12 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 04:42:54 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 04:41:40 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 04:40:45 pm

Partystar: 2014-08-05 04:38:27 pm

2014-08-05 04:35:23 pm

ESA 2014 was a big success in my opinion and I'm very happy I was part of it.

My own feedback:
1.) TV's
Although I got to practice more than enough, I feel we were low on TV's in the practice rooms. Some tv's required a remote to access the AV channel and I wasn't always able to find a remote that worked with the TV. I also had to find proper TV's for DKCR. Some had noticeable lack such as the TV's with a build-in VHS recorder, but also some tv's without VHS felt like I was playing in slow-motion. Some people had no problems with the same tv's as I had, but I had to shake harder and I noticed donkey's speed was different than I'm used to. So the first few days I was constantly looking for a proper TV to practice on.

2.) Donation hype
Although we raised a lot of money, I would've liked to see the amount of money raised, other than having to look at the donation trackers, whether that be directly in the stream feed or on the ESA Web site above or below the stream feeds. I saw the French re-stream that had the donation amount placed somewhere on the overlay. It looked really cool. People like to help out. If they see the donation amount, they might like to donate just a little bit more to reach arbitrary goals.

3.) empty rooms
My main problem was what others said too, empty stream rooms. I'm guilty myself too for not sitting there as much either. I sometimes felt sad when I saw a runner sitting there almost alone. And this wasn't only during the night shifts but also during the day and I think even the evenings. Me and some other Dutchies do mini marathons almost each month and we often have as many people in the room as during the average runs at ESA. I felt almost sorry for that. Even during some popular games, the rooms were half filled. There could have been a few reasons for it such as a) it was very warm in the venue. b) maybe not all games were exciting for the majority of people. c) there were many side events going on, or d) other ways of watching a run like the projectors, mobile's, laptops etc. But regardless of the reason, I think there should be a way to invite people in the stream rooms, or at least bring it to their attention to support fellow speedrunners. People usually go for what they are familiar with. But in my opinion you miss a lot if you don't give an unknown game, category or runner a chance. You might be in for a surprise to see that there is more talent out there then what you're familiar with.

Reply to what others said:

1.) Inaudible commentary.
I didn't noticed it myself during the marathon but I watched back my run earlier today, and noticed it is indeed true, at least for my own run. The game sound overruled my commentary and my voice and English isn't already the best, especially when I'm tired and have to focus on my run. It could've been that Wii mote shaking was the cause of it, but the audience wasn't audible either. I remember the audience was a lot more involved during my run than what the mic recorded. People were humming the familiar DK tunes, having conversations with me and there was a lot of laughter. It is barely noticeable from the twitch recordings. There was a lot of energy during my run.

2.) Viewer count
I personally feel that we had a lot of viewers for both streams. There was indeed a decline after the first few days And I think I picked one of the last peaks. There could have been multiple reasons for it such as, a) repeating the same games that were already played during DreamHack, RSM or non-Ludendi marathons, b) games that are not popular with the average viewer c) other activities, or d) just marathon saturation. I don't really care that much myself. I had 3500+ more viewers last year, but it is just a number I can't grasp on anyway. It would be just speculation what could've caused a decline. But on the flip-side we gained a lot of followers. From a 16500+ to a whopping 31500+ for the Ludendi account and the ESA account got from an 800 to over 8000 during the whole event. That is double the amount for the Ludendi stream and the ESA stream got half of what the ludendi stream had before ESA 2014. I would say that is a really nice (let me boldface this) increase!!! Next year over 31000 followers get notified when ESA starts!!!! Not bad at all.

3.) drop charity?
Really? I fail to see why. I felt flattered when people donated during my run. 37K is a really nice (let me boldface this again) accomplishment and I take pride in having been part of getting this amount together with my fellow speedrunners at ESA 2014. 37K is a lot of money. It would be a nice year salary where I live. I kinda agree with the swearing argument, yet I didn't hear DWB complaining. If they did, I'm sure most of us (including me) would have sworn a little bit less. I totally agree with what KVD and KennyMan said. In the end, the most important thing (in my opinion) of any pro gaming marathon should be the performance itself. People that are watching expect a certain level of skilled gameplay. And if they like what they see then they can donate and/ or give the runner a follow.

ESA 2014 was a big success in my opinion and I'm very happy I was part of it.

My own feedback:
1.) TV's
Although I got to practice more than enough, I feel we were low on TV's in the practice rooms. Some tv's required a remote to access the AV channel and I wasn't always able to find a remote that worked with the TV. I also had to find proper TV's for DKCR. Some had noticeable lack such as the TV's with a build-in VHS recorder, but also some tv's without VHS felt like I was playing in slow-motion. Some people had no problems with the same tv's as I had, but I had to shake harder and I noticed donkey's speed was different than I'm used to. So the first few days I was constantly looking for a proper TV to practice on.

2.) Donation hype
Although we raised a lot of money, I would've liked to see the amount of money raised, other than having to look at the donation trackers, whether that be directly in the stream feed or on the ESA Web site above or below the stream feeds. I saw the French re-stream that had the donation amount placed somewhere on the overlay. It looked really cool. People like to help out. If they see the donation amount, they might like to donate just a little bit more to reach arbitrary goals.

3.) empty rooms
My main problem was what others said too, empty stream rooms. I'm guilty myself too for not sitting there as much either. I sometimes felt sad when I saw a runner sitting there almost alone. And this wasn't only during the night shifts but also during the day and I think even the evenings. Me and some other Dutchies do mini marathons almost each month and we often have as many people in the room as during the average runs at ESA. I felt almost sorry for that. Even during some popular games, the rooms were half filled. There could have been a few reasons for it such as a) it was very warm in the venue. b) maybe not all games were exciting for the majority of people. c) there were many side events going on, or d) other ways of watching a run like the projectors, mobile's, laptops etc. But regardless of the reason, I think there should be a way to invite people in the stream rooms, or at least bring it to their attention to support fellow speedrunners. People usually go for what they are familiar with. But in my opinion you miss a lot if you don't give an unknown game, category or runner a chance. You might be in for a surprise to see that there is more talent out there then what you're familiar with.

Reply to what others said:

1.) Inaudible commentary. 
I didn't noticed it myself during the marathon but I watched back my run earlier today, and noticed it is indeed true, at least for my own run. The game sound overruled my commentary and my voice and English isn't already the best, especially when I'm tired and have to focus on my run. It could've been that Wii mote shaking was the cause of it, but the audience wasn't audible either. I remember the audience was a lot more involved during my run than what the mic recorded. People were humming the familiar DK tunes, having conversations with me and there was a lot of laughter. It is barely noticeable from the twitch recordings. There was a lot of energy during my run.

2.) Viewer count
I personally feel that we had a lot of viewers for both streams. There was indeed a decline after the first few days And I think I picked one of the last peaks. There could have been multiple reasons for it such as, a) repeating the same games that were already played during DreamHack, RSM or non-Ludendi marathons, b) games that are not popular with the average viewer c) other activities, or d) just marathon saturation. I don't really care that much myself. I had 3500+ more viewers last year, but it is just a number I can't grasp on anyway. It would be just speculation what could've caused a decline. But on the flip-side we gained a lot of followers. From a 16500+ to a whopping 31500+ for the Ludendi account and the ESA account got from an 800 to over 8000 during the whole event. That is double the amount for the Ludendi stream and the ESA stream got half of what the ludendi stream had before ESA 2014. I would say that is a really nice (let me boldface this) [b]increase[/b]!!! Next year over 31000 followers get notified when ESA starts!!!! Not bad at all.

3.) drop charity?
Really? I fail to see why. I felt flattered when people donated during my run. 37K is a really nice (let me boldface this again) [b]accomplishment[/b] and I take pride in having been part of getting this amount together with my fellow speedrunners at ESA 2014. 37K is a lot of money. It would be a nice year salary where I live. I kinda agree with the swearing argument, yet I didn't hear DWB complaining. If they did, I'm sure most of us (including me) would have sworn a little bit less. I totally agree with what KVD and KennyMan said.  In the end, the most important thing (in my opinion) of any pro gaming marathon should be the performance itself. People that are watching expect a certain level of skilled gameplay. And if they like what they see then they can donate and/ or give the runner a follow.

RoboSparkle

Edit history:

RoboSparkle: 2014-08-05 06:28:11 pm

2014-08-05 06:24:25 pm

Magical. Flying. Bathtub

On the subject of phone/laptop warriors, I'd heard that ESA were planning to crack down on this next year to stop this happening. I'm possibly one of the guilty parties in this since I did chat interaction/commentary for Shrimp and Cruxit's TJ&E run with a laptop on the couch although I didn't hear any complaints about my spending about 50% of the time on the laptop relaying questions from chat. If that did bother people then I'm sorry, but not much since it didn't bother either of the runners and I genuinely don't remember any complaints about this at the time Tongue

Long Setup Times / Issues: As has been mentioned before, good commentary can save a bad run and this is the same with setups. I'd like it so that whoever is in charge of hosting has something to talk about to keep people entertained if setup for a run takes a while. (possibly an impromptu interview like Flicky Adam and I did during Dark Souls setup last year and like I should have done this year since I was hosting during the Swat 4 setup). This will be hard to implement since the delay setting up Swat (like most delays) was an unexpected issue but at least if it is clear that the onus is on the host to keep people sticking around (or to big up whatever is going on on the other stream) then we can mitigate the damage, or even provide an unexpected bonus.

Microphones: This is an issue that education can solve. I did not know how the microphones worked and since the headsets were different to mine and the mic was in a different place I could not tell whether I was wearing it correctly. As such I was relying on tech to nanny me to a certain extent and let me know that all was well and I didn't have to worry my pretty little head.

I believe this is the best approach as even if we briefed all the runners perfectly on how the mics worked (and this would likely require several tutorial runs before the marathon starts and spare mics that we don't have) then people will forget or fuck up. Saying that the mics weren't picking up enough sound from the runners because they weren't wearing them correctly is an issue that should be corrected during the sound check before the run starts. However, we shouldn't need a tutorial to know that sitting on mics (or any part thereof) is a bad idea.

Empty Rooms: During the marathon, there were multiple mystery tournaments run by Chucat, the Mario Kart 8 Tournament, a lot of communal meals, mini trips to Skovde, bowling, the Melee tournament, swimming in the lake (although not skinny dipping Sad

) and yes, compared to all that watching a computer game being played did seem to take lower priority. That was more a reflection of the awesomeness of the event as a whole than the lack of hype around a particular run or runner, although I do agree that we should perhaps adjust camera angles to remove empty chairs (or replace them all with William Shatner) so that the room seems less empty.

Cross Communication with other streams
When I was hosting (particularly between games) I tried to hype up whatever was happening on the other stream but I only had a slow wi-fi connection or a schedule to see what was happening. At ESA2012 we had a private Skype chat with all the mod computers to easily communicate without shouting over a run and I think something similar was used at AGDQ so we should be able to get something like this running next year.

TVs
Strimmer Moar TVs pls. From what I understand this is already being fixed and we will have TVs coming out the wazoo next year, and they will be labelled PAL/NTSC/60Hz etc. We will also have 6 Wazoos

On the subject of phone/laptop warriors, I'd heard that ESA were planning to crack down on this next year to stop this happening.  I'm possibly one of the guilty parties in this since I did chat interaction/commentary for Shrimp and Cruxit's TJ&E run with a laptop on the couch although I didn't hear any complaints about my spending about 50% of the time on the laptop relaying questions from chat.  If that did bother people then I'm sorry, but not much since it didn't bother either of the runners and I genuinely don't remember any complaints about this at the time :P

[b]Long Setup Times / Issues:[/b]  As has been mentioned before, good commentary can save a bad run and this is the same with setups.  I'd like it so that whoever is in charge of hosting has something to talk about to keep people entertained if setup for a run takes a while.  (possibly an impromptu interview like Flicky Adam and I did during Dark Souls setup last year and like I should have done this year since I was hosting during the Swat 4 setup).  This will be hard to implement since the delay setting up Swat (like most delays) was an unexpected issue but at least if it is clear that the onus is on the host to keep people sticking around (or to big up whatever is going on on the other stream) then we can mitigate the damage, or even provide an unexpected bonus.

[b]Microphones:[/b] This is an issue that education can solve.  I did not know how the microphones worked and since the headsets were different to mine and the mic was in a different place I could not tell whether I was wearing it correctly.  As such I was relying on tech to nanny me to a certain extent and let me know that all was well and I didn't have to worry my pretty little head.

I believe this is the best approach as even if we briefed all the runners perfectly on how the mics worked (and this would likely require several tutorial runs before the marathon starts and spare mics that we don't have) then people will forget or fuck up.  Saying that the mics weren't picking up enough sound from the runners because they weren't wearing them correctly is an issue that should be corrected during the sound check before the run starts.  However, we shouldn't need a tutorial to know that sitting on mics (or any part thereof) is a bad idea.

[b]Empty Rooms:[/b]  During the marathon, there were multiple mystery tournaments run by Chucat, the Mario Kart 8 Tournament, a lot of communal meals, mini trips to Skovde, bowling, the Melee tournament, swimming in the lake (although not skinny dipping :( ) and yes, compared to all that watching a computer game being played did seem to take lower priority.  That was more a reflection of the awesomeness of the event as a whole than the lack of hype around a particular run or runner, although I do agree that we should perhaps adjust camera angles to remove empty chairs (or replace them all with William Shatner) so that the room seems less empty.

[b]Cross Communication with other streams[/b]
When I was hosting (particularly between games) I tried to hype up whatever was happening on the other stream but I only had a slow wi-fi connection or a schedule to see what was happening.  At ESA2012 we had a private Skype chat with all the mod computers to easily communicate without shouting over a run and I think something similar was used at AGDQ so we should be able to get something like this running next year.

[b]TVs[/b]
Strimmer Moar TVs pls.  From what I understand this is already being fixed and we will have TVs coming out the wazoo next year, and they will be labelled PAL/NTSC/60Hz etc.  We will also have 6 Wazoos

Hornet85

Edit history:

Hornet85: 2014-08-05 07:45:10 pm

2014-08-05 07:44:39 pm

Quote from RoboSparkle:

On the subject of phone/laptop warriors, I'd heard that ESA were planning to crack down on this next year to stop this happening. I'm possibly one of the guilty parties in this since I did chat interaction/commentary for Shrimp and Cruxit's TJ&E run with a laptop on the couch although I didn't hear any complaints about my spending about 50% of the time on the laptop relaying questions from chat. If that did bother people then I'm sorry, but not much since it didn't bother either of the runners and I genuinely don't remember any complaints about this at the time Tongue

Can't speak for others but I certainly wasn't thinking of you when it came to this subject. And I really doubt you're the person the others were referring to Tongue

. It's fine, IMO, for a commentator to read the chat and interact as part of the commentary, as you are actually part of the run and you will certainly not come across as being uninterested in what's going on. I believe it only catches the attention of the viewers in the wrong way when someone sits at the front and are constantly looking down at the phone without showing much interest in the run itself.

[quote="RoboSparkle"]On the subject of phone/laptop warriors, I'd heard that ESA were planning to crack down on this next year to stop this happening.  I'm possibly one of the guilty parties in this since I did chat interaction/commentary for Shrimp and Cruxit's TJ&E run with a laptop on the couch although I didn't hear any complaints about my spending about 50% of the time on the laptop relaying questions from chat.  If that did bother people then I'm sorry, but not much since it didn't bother either of the runners and I genuinely don't remember any complaints about this at the time :P
[/quote]
Can't speak for others but I certainly wasn't thinking of you when it came to this subject. And I really doubt you're the person the others were referring to :P . It's fine, IMO, for a commentator to read the chat and interact as part of the commentary, as you are actually part of the run and you will certainly not come across as being uninterested in what's going on. I believe it only catches the attention of the viewers in the wrong way when someone sits at the front and are constantly looking down at the phone without showing much interest in the run itself.

Tyr

2014-08-05 08:01:24 pm

Hey.

Just got home. Let's see what I can get after being awake for 40+ hours and 15 hours of travel.
Awesome event from my perspective. I honestly didn't have any major issues with anything at all. I'll try to be a little bit picky.

Long setups : Alright, there was that I suppose. My Saints Row 3 run took a while to set up. I was told to download and install the game on one of the practice PCs (which were awesome btw - that area was ALWAYS, day and night, packed with people practicing or just playing whatever) which we would move to the streaming room. It made sense but we ended up having to set up the new PC to be streamed and everything so it took a while as we had a few issues first with monitor not showing what it should show, then some bad FPS and then some audio. It was all fixed fairly quickly individually but in the end the setup was fairly long and I was a little bit annoyed as I just wanted to play the game.
We ended up moving PCs fairly often in the end which caused a few problems and delays with games not being installed on PCs they were supposed to be on and stuff like that. This can probably be fixed easily by just having all the games installed and tested beforehand on specific, powerful streaming PCs and just switch keyboard and mouse as needed.
That being said, we got the dreamhack PCs kinda late so yeah.

The trash in the chill room : This is actually probably my major complaint about the event. People leaving their shit on the tables and even the ground (!) for days sometimes is just unacceptable. I would say that the same actually goes for the trash bags literally in the middle of the room and next to the kitchen. Like .. what the actual fuck ? It's like fucking 30°C and we're keeping the trash right next to where we're trying to chill. It just didn't work out. It probably also had something to do with the flies everywhere. There is definitely some work to be done in that area.

Vice City Bingo : So this obviously affects me a lot. Considering it was very much experimental in the first place I think we did a fine job, but there definitely is some areas in which we can improve, most notably the readability for the viewers.
A bingo is something that is pretty complex, especially for people who aren't used to bingos and/or the game. Showing the card on stream was a must. Maybe cycle between the camera and the card every 2 minutes or so ? Also reuse the color code to add small colored ticks on the objectives the different players have completed on the card.
A dedicated commentator is also necessary. There was a lot of downtime on the commentary because we simply couldn't really do it at the time. It's practically non stop action and it's obviously non-linear so as a player you have even less time to think about what to say than in a regular any% or something. I tried to do my best but I completely agree that it wasn't enough. Dedicated commentary like Eidgod and I did for the Chaos% on bonus stream would be extremely beneficial, not only to explain the objectives and the pros/cons of them but also of course follow the progress of the players.
I think it was a good first try and I really really hope it'll happen again next year as it brings something different and is very much part of several speedrunning communities.

I think that's all the major points I wanted to talk about actually.
I might add more later I guess.

Hey.

Just got home. Let's see what I can get after being awake for 40+ hours and 15 hours of travel.
Awesome event from my perspective. I honestly didn't have any major issues with anything at all. I'll try to be a little bit picky.

[b]Long setups :[/b] Alright, there was that I suppose. My Saints Row 3 run took a while to set up. I was told to download and install the game on one of the practice PCs (which were awesome btw - that area was ALWAYS, day and night, packed with people practicing or just playing whatever) which we would move to the streaming room. It made sense but we ended up having to set up the new PC to be streamed and everything so it took a while as we had a few issues first with monitor not showing what it should show, then some bad FPS and then some audio. It was all fixed fairly quickly individually but in the end the setup was fairly long and I was a little bit annoyed as I just wanted to play the game.
We ended up moving PCs fairly often in the end which caused a few problems and delays with games not being installed on PCs they were supposed to be on and stuff like that. This can probably be fixed easily by just having all the games installed and tested beforehand on specific, powerful streaming PCs and just switch keyboard and mouse as needed.
That being said, we got the dreamhack PCs kinda late so yeah.

[b]The trash in the chill room :[/b] This is actually probably my major complaint about the event. People leaving their shit on the tables and even the ground (!) for days sometimes is just unacceptable. I would say that the same actually goes for the trash bags literally in the middle of the room and next to the kitchen. Like .. what the actual fuck ? It's like fucking 30°C and we're keeping the trash right next to where we're trying to chill. It just didn't work out. It probably also had something to do with the flies everywhere. There is definitely some work to be done in that area.

[b]Vice City Bingo :[/b] So this obviously affects me a lot. Considering it was very much experimental in the first place I think we did a fine job, but there definitely is some areas in which we can improve, most notably the readability for the viewers.
A bingo is something that is pretty complex, especially for people who aren't used to bingos and/or the game. Showing the card on stream was a must. Maybe cycle between the camera and the card every 2 minutes or so ? Also reuse the color code to add small colored ticks on the objectives the different players have completed on the card.
A dedicated commentator is also necessary. There was a lot of downtime on the commentary because we simply couldn't really do it at the time. It's practically non stop action and it's obviously non-linear so as a player you have even less time to think about what to say than in a regular any% or something. I tried to do my best but I completely agree that it wasn't enough. Dedicated commentary like Eidgod and I did for the Chaos% on bonus stream would be extremely beneficial, not only to explain the objectives and the pros/cons of them but also of course follow the progress of the players.
I think it was a good first try and I really really hope it'll happen again next year as it brings something different and is very much part of several speedrunning communities.

I think that's all the major points I wanted to talk about actually.
I might add more later I guess.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-08-05 10:17:30 pm

2014-08-05 10:17:03 pm

<(^_^)>

Not sure if this was mentioned since I only skimmed the topic, but... Could you please get the website up and running weeks before the actual event? IIRC the website was only up, at best, roughly a week before the event. I can't help but feel that the lack of a central website to advertise was a contributing factor to "lack of relative viewers/donations". Whenever someone asked for the schedule/event, I couldn't link them the website in forever because it was last year's, or didn't exist, and so on.

Most of other points I want to mention have already been covered.

Regardless, great job on the event overall! I really enjoyed it from the runs I caught.

Driscollad

2014-08-05 10:29:57 pm

I have to start with the most important point, which is you represented the community wonderfully, while raising over $36k, and should give yourselves a round of applause

- I was a fan of the dual stream, but I have to confess, PJ brings valid arguments. The execution can definitely improve, however its absolutely worth revisiting next year. There are simple solutions to the largest issues, and a solid game plan will see those solutions through.

- Any marathon with Frezy is an instant classic...

- We had a glaring trash issue at C4L (namely, apparently Americans don't recycle drink containers) leaving trash and recyclables in both garbage cans. It was our fault in not being proactive about it. Perhaps a warning then slap the offenders with community service, ie 30 minutes of trash duty as punishment? No easy solution here, some people are just messy in nature.

- Plug the prizes. Often. It can only help.

- The commentary was pretty solid considering it was in a 2nd language for most of the attendees. This is another grey area. People can prepare for months and have tons of interesting things to talk about during the run, then simply not get enough sleep, turn into a zombie, and barely hold on to any semblance of consciousness during the run. It happens.

- Charity, donation totals, production quality, etc. Man, fuck em all...The only reason you should even contemplate dropping the charity is if you aren't proud of the marathon you put on. I simply don't think that's the case.

You put on a good show, and next year's will be better, I'm sure. There are some great suggestions in the thread, and I'm looking forward to ESA 2015, cheers all.

I have to start with the most important point, which is [b]you represented the community wonderfully, while raising over $36k, and should give yourselves a round of applause[/b]

- I was a fan of the dual stream, but I have to confess, PJ brings valid arguments. The execution can definitely improve, however its absolutely worth revisiting next year. There are simple solutions to the largest issues, and a solid game plan will see those solutions through.

- Any marathon with Frezy is an instant classic...

- We had a glaring trash issue at C4L (namely, apparently Americans don't recycle drink containers) leaving trash and recyclables in both garbage cans. It was our fault in not being proactive about it. Perhaps a warning then slap the offenders with community service, ie 30 minutes of trash duty as punishment? No easy solution here, some people are just messy in nature.

- Plug the prizes. Often. It can only help.

- The commentary was pretty solid considering it was in a 2nd language for most of the attendees. This is another grey area. People can prepare for months and have tons of interesting things to talk about during the run, then simply not get enough sleep, turn into a zombie, and barely hold on to any semblance of consciousness during the run. It happens.

- Charity, donation totals, production quality, etc. Man, fuck em all...The only reason you should even contemplate dropping the charity is if you aren't proud of the marathon you put on. I simply don't think that's the case.

You put on a good show, and next year's will be better, I'm sure. There are some great suggestions in the thread, and I'm looking forward to ESA 2015, cheers all.

Edenal

2014-08-06 02:07:50 am

Hockey enthusiast

Again, I want to echo what flicky said. Keep the feedback (and discussion) coming! We're reading everything are will reply when we've had a chance to come home and gotten some distance.

Mobiusman

2014-08-06 02:55:46 am

Quote from PJ:

F-Zero X was one of the first games of the marathon, so I was expecting the room to be exploding just from the sheer excitement of ESA kick-off and WMJ. Instead, the room was mostly silent and disinterested while WMJ absolutely destroyed FZX. The quality of the runs at ESA was really high, but the crowd just didn't seem to be enjoying it. Again, I am sure this isn't how everybody actually felt, but that is the impression it gave off.

As someone who watched f-zero x, I was certainly not disinterested. I think a lot of the time the audience - who, inevitably, would be mostly unfamiliar with any one run - had trouble taking cues from the runner as to when to clap, when to cheer, etc, and erred on the side of caution by not making a racket and risking putting the runner off. Maybe this is something that would be helped by having more co-commentators to bridge the gap; it seemed like we had a shortage this year. We even had trouble finding someone for super metroid!