EarthBound

2010-03-23 10:20:00 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Yeah, I died in Magicant, and walked around Threed with two Flying Men behind me (screen shots were taken) afterward. When I went into the hospital in Threed, though, the game froze. :p So, I didn't get to try and see if they happened to be alive to fight, or not.

Floogal

2010-03-24 02:26:29 am

Well, the game should have frozen. You do know about the limitations of "ghosting", don't you?

Take a look at the game-map I linked to earlier. When you start ghosting, draw a red horizontal line at that point across the whole map. If you ever end up below that line for whatever reason (walking, teleporting, going through a door that puts you into a room below that line), then the game will try to lock you into staircase mode, but since you're nowhere near the staircase, it freezes.

This is all assuming you started glitching off of the top of a staircase, of course. If you glitched off of the bottom of one, the same rules apply, but the game freezes if you're ever above the line.

This is why it's so fortunate that the first staircase you have access to in the game (graveyard beneath Threed) is so low on the game map -- you can explore almost the entire game world without freezing. But you must first save in the Threed hotel, as death-warping back to where Jeff joins you is too low and freezes the game. The hospital in Threed is similarly too low to go to.

Or, do what the TAS did. It ghosted a second time off of the bottom of a stair case in Summers, then went to the drop-hole Lumine Hall. Apparently, hackers determined that when you go down the drop-hole, you're warped to a black room at the top-left of the gamemap (during the "dropping" sound effect), which triggers the freezing glitch since you're above where you ghosted at Summers. But it doesn't matter, since after a set delay, you're then teleported to the Lost Underworld. And I guess that if you can get out of the freezing glitch somehow, you're a-okay afterwards. And then the TASer could safely death-warp back to the Threed tunnel Jeff saved you from.

I wonder if saving & reloading the game fixes the "can't go above/below here" annoyance, which otherwise stays persistent for the remainder of the game. Notice that in the TAS, the runner hugs the upper wall of the first passageway of the Sea of Eden in Magicant -- going just a few pixels lower would trigger the glitch.

Well, the game should have frozen.  You do know about the limitations of "ghosting", don't you?

Take a look at the game-map I linked to earlier.  When you start ghosting, draw a red horizontal line at that point across the whole map.  If you ever end up below that line for whatever reason (walking, teleporting, going through a door that puts you into a room below that line), then the game will try to lock you into staircase mode, but since you're nowhere near the staircase, it freezes.

This is all assuming you started glitching off of the top of a staircase, of course.  If you glitched off of the bottom of one, the same rules apply, but the game freezes if you're ever above the line.

This is why it's so fortunate that the first staircase you have access to in the game (graveyard beneath Threed) is so low on the game map -- you can explore almost the entire game world without freezing.  But you must first save in the Threed hotel, as death-warping back to where Jeff joins you is too low and freezes the game.  The hospital in Threed is similarly too low to go to.

Or, do what the TAS did.  It ghosted a second time off of the bottom of a stair case in Summers, then went to the drop-hole Lumine Hall.  Apparently, hackers determined that when you go down the drop-hole, you're warped to a black room at the top-left of the gamemap (during the "dropping" sound effect), which triggers the freezing glitch since you're above where you ghosted at Summers.  But it doesn't matter, since after a set delay, you're then teleported to the Lost Underworld.   And I guess that if you can get out of the freezing glitch somehow, you're a-okay afterwards.  And then the TASer could safely death-warp back to the Threed tunnel Jeff saved you from.

I wonder if saving & reloading the game fixes the "can't go above/below here" annoyance, which otherwise stays persistent for the remainder of the game.  Notice that in the TAS, the runner hugs the upper wall of the first passageway of the Sea of Eden in Magicant -- going just a few pixels lower would trigger the glitch.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2010-03-24 08:46:23 am

2010-03-24 08:40:50 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Yeah, I knew about the rule of the stair glitch with the line you can't cross below. I just wasn't sure at the time it applied if you died and went back to where you started. I thought that freezing only applied WHILE you were "ghosted" in out of bounds, and tried to go below that point then (I have done this to make sure too).

I probably should have saved first, just in case, but oh well.

Also, I'm still trying to do that route on emulator. You said that I can just deathwarp back to Threed to do the second stair glitch? Because I'd rather do it there than have that one shot in Summers on those stairs. Saving after death warping back to Threed might be the easiest way in a speedrun, anyway, since pulling off two glitches in a row isn't going to happen...

I know it's a long walk to Lumine Hall from Threed, but for the sake of sanity to the runner, it might be easier to do that (unless the runner happens to be good enough at the stair glitch to pull it off in summers).

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2010-03-24 11:21:31 pm

2010-03-24 03:50:39 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Also, was the only purpose of going to Summers at all, to activate where Poo would have shown up if you did go to Dalaam? Because if that's true, then we have to do 3 stair glitches, not two... One to Summers (savewarp to Threed possibly, or save in Summers, and attempt the glitch there); one to Lumine Hall (for us, to get the Rabbit's Foot so Ness can attack first in Magicant); and one to go to Magicant.

If we can skip Summers and go to Lumine Hall instead, I'm all for it. One glitch is bad enough, but three!?

Edit: Well, I finally got to the point where I stair glitched from Summers. The problem is, what do we do from Summers? The TAS goes straight to the hole that leads to the Underworld. For a human speedrun, I think we still need that Rabbit's foot to gain any ground on leveling in Magicant (for Ness to paralyze immediately). The entrance to Lumine Hall the way we would enter it, is north of Summers, which means glitch off the stairs and going north. But, by doing that, the game will freeze when we fall down the hole, and then we'd have to reset back at the last save point, which would most likely be Summers, before all of that occurred... Summers because, saving before doing any stair glitch seems the be the only way to do this (giving more than one try on these will be a pain, unless you bring something like a hamburger or a food that can get you high enough above the 20% mark).

On the other hand, death warping back to Threed after reaching summers, and then glitching again in the graveyard to walk to Lumine Hall will take longer, but would allow item collecting in the Underworld which we need badly, so Paula can survive Giygas' second and third form. If we are still getting the Rabbit's Foot (if everyone else feels that it's worth the trip, and the time it takes to kill Electro Spector, 260,000 experience for Ness alone btw), the Franklin Badge would have to happen; because I don't see how the hell you're gonna beat Electro without it. The fight I had with him alone with Ness took close to 8 minutes, maybe (bad luck with his lightning hitting me a lot). Unless someone can avoid every Fobby down there near where the Shining Spot is, I suggest fighting at least 1 or 2 battles (if you can get to one group, and then another without fighting more than Fobbies), to level the rest of your party up a tad before magicant, probably taking some of that grunt work out (and help Paula a little to get to that magic level for Shield Epsilon).

~~One other thing. Would it be beneficial to get Poo at all before leaving Summers? His training and all that takes over 10 minutes, but a fourth party member going into magicant? Worth it?~~ It makes a save point at the time you get Poo... So no deathwarping to Threed. *sigh*. At least I tested it beforehand... I never knew this since I don't think I ever died right after getting Poo before. :p

I also tested that saving and resetting does reset the boundary line to normal, so you can go in a hospital in Threed to revive someone, if it's worth doing so (after death warping from either place). So, thanks for that suggestion, Floogal.

Also, was the only purpose of going to Summers at all, to activate where Poo would have shown up if you did go to Dalaam? Because if that's true, then we have to do 3 stair glitches, not two... One to Summers (savewarp to Threed possibly, or save in Summers, and attempt the glitch there); one to Lumine Hall (for us, to get the Rabbit's Foot so Ness can attack first in Magicant); and one to go to Magicant.

If we can skip Summers and go to Lumine Hall instead, I'm all for it. One glitch is bad enough, but three!?

Edit: Well, I finally got to the point where I stair glitched from Summers. The problem is, what do we do from Summers? The TAS goes straight to the hole that leads to the Underworld. For a human speedrun, I think we still need that Rabbit's foot to gain any ground on leveling in Magicant (for Ness to paralyze immediately). The entrance to Lumine Hall the way we would enter it, is north of Summers, which means glitch off the stairs and going north. But, by doing that, the game will freeze when we fall down the hole, and then we'd have to reset back at the last save point, which would most likely be Summers, before all of that occurred... Summers because, saving before doing any stair glitch seems the be the only way to do this (giving more than one try on these will be a pain, unless you bring something like a hamburger or a food that can get you high enough above the 20% mark).

On the other hand, death warping back to Threed after reaching summers, and then glitching again in the graveyard to walk to Lumine Hall will take longer, but would allow item collecting in the Underworld which we need badly, so Paula can survive Giygas' second and third form. If we are still getting the Rabbit's Foot (if everyone else feels that it's worth the trip, and the time it takes to kill Electro Spector, 260,000 experience for Ness alone btw), the Franklin Badge would have to happen; because I don't see how the hell you're gonna beat Electro without it. The fight I had with him alone with Ness took close to 8 minutes, maybe (bad luck with his lightning hitting me a lot). Unless someone can avoid every Fobby down there near where the Shining Spot is, I suggest fighting at least 1 or 2 battles (if you can get to one group, and then another without fighting more than Fobbies), to level the rest of your party up a tad before magicant, probably taking some of that grunt work out (and help Paula a little to get to that magic level for Shield Epsilon).

[s]One other thing. Would it be beneficial to get Poo at all before leaving Summers? His training and all that takes over 10 minutes, but a fourth party member going into magicant? Worth it?[/s] It makes a save point at the time you get Poo... So no deathwarping to Threed. *sigh*. At least I tested it beforehand... I never knew this since I don't think I ever died right after getting Poo before. :p

I also tested that saving and resetting does reset the boundary line to normal, so you can go in a hospital in Threed to revive someone, if it's worth doing so (after death warping from either place). So, thanks for that suggestion, Floogal.

Floogal

2010-03-25 02:16:01 am

Yeah, Summers is entirely optional. It just so happens that, fully optimized, it's quicker to detour through there than to walk directly to Lumine Hall from Threed. Trace the route on the game map -- right near the Threed tunnel is the interior of a Summers room. End the glitch there, exit the door, and now you're in Summers, way at the other end of the game map, and right near Lumine Hall. Convenient.

In practise, I doubt that a runner could pull it off with such efficiency that it wouldn't just be faster to walk directly to Lumine Hall from Threed. Convenient that that also means one less glitch.

If beating Electro Specter is too tough, we can always just grab the Rabbit's Foot and deathwarp back to Threed. Another glitch to get back to the Lumine Hall hole, but that's versus skipping a boss & detour to Paula's shack. Personally, I think that the Franklin Badge is too good to pass up -- coupled with the Sea Pendant, even a level 1 Paula is virtually invincible to Giygas phase 2 & 3. And that "free" experience from Electro Specter with the badge would probably make things much easier for Ness.

Some more food for thought: somehow abusing Exit Mice. If you've played Earthbound Zero, they work like limited-use auto-bread-crumbs. There's a permanent warp point set at all times; its coordinates change to your current location whenever you enter a cave/dungeon. Using an Exit Mouse teleports you to the permanent warp point's coordinates. Since you can only use Exit Mice in areas where the warp points are set upon entering, they work "correctly" in that you always warp to the entrance of the current area.

Now factor in ghosting, which lets to walk around a dungeon without having entered it from its entrance (resetting the warp coordinates). So, leave Giant's Step. Now, ghost off of some stairs, waltz into the middle of Lilliput Steps, and unghost. Use the Exit Mouse, and you'll warp to the entrance of Giant's Step.

I started messing around with Exit Mice back when I thought that you needed to beat Starman DX to get Andonuts to appear in Saturn Valley. The Exit Mouse was a way to exit the dungeon after completing it (Eraser Eraser was blocking the way), by warping back to some other dungeon. ...Or, it was a way to do Lumine Hall after Magicant, due to something we had yet to figure out.

Anyways, I can't see the Exit Mouse being any help, as it doesn't save any glitches. It's only apparent use (to me) is to do more glitches after beating Magicant (when you no longer have the Sound Stone). Perhaps you can think of something?

Yeah, Summers is entirely optional.  It just so happens that, fully optimized, it's quicker to detour through there than to walk directly to Lumine Hall from Threed.  Trace the route on the game map -- right near the Threed tunnel is the interior of a Summers room.  End the glitch there, exit the door, and now you're in Summers, way at the other end of the game map, and right near Lumine Hall.  Convenient.

In practise, I doubt that a runner could pull it off with such efficiency that it wouldn't just be faster to walk directly to Lumine Hall from Threed.  Convenient that that also means one less glitch.

If beating Electro Specter is too tough, we can always just grab the Rabbit's Foot and deathwarp back to Threed.  Another glitch to get back to the Lumine Hall hole, but that's versus skipping a boss & detour to Paula's shack.  Personally, I think that the Franklin Badge is too good to pass up -- coupled with the Sea Pendant, even a level 1 Paula is virtually invincible to Giygas phase 2 & 3.  And that "free" experience from Electro Specter with the badge would probably make things much easier for Ness.

Some more food for thought: somehow abusing Exit Mice.  If you've played Earthbound Zero, they work like limited-use auto-bread-crumbs.  There's a permanent warp point set at all times; its coordinates change to your current location whenever you enter a cave/dungeon.  Using an Exit Mouse teleports you to the permanent warp point's coordinates.  Since you can only use Exit Mice in areas where the warp points are set upon entering, they work "correctly" in that you always warp to the entrance of the current area.

Now factor in ghosting, which lets to walk around a dungeon without having entered it from its entrance (resetting the warp coordinates).  So, leave Giant's Step.  Now, ghost off of some stairs, waltz into the middle of Lilliput Steps, and unghost.  Use the Exit Mouse, and you'll warp to the entrance of Giant's Step.

I started messing around with Exit Mice back when I thought that you needed to beat Starman DX to get Andonuts to appear in Saturn Valley.  The Exit Mouse was a way to exit the dungeon after completing it (Eraser Eraser was blocking the way), by warping back to some other dungeon.   ...Or, it was a way to do Lumine Hall after Magicant, due to something we had yet to figure out.

Anyways, I can't see the Exit Mouse being any help, as it doesn't save any glitches.  It's only apparent use (to me) is to do more glitches after beating Magicant (when you no longer have the Sound Stone).  Perhaps you can think of something?

Nitrodon

2010-03-25 11:52:59 am

If you initiate the glitch at some point where you can use the Exit Mouse, and then you go above/below the line and "freeze" as a result, I think you can use the Exit Mouse to escape (haven't tried it recently). I can't see any use for this either, but I thought I'd mention it.

Mickey_Mage

Edit history:

Mickey_Mage: 2010-03-25 04:50:29 pm

2010-03-25 02:26:54 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Yeah, the problem is the only cave we actually enter that an exit mouse would be useful, is Lumine Hall; otherwise I'd be all over this little glitch.

It's really good to know that we don't have to go to Summers. I feel much better knowing that only two need to be pulled off, instead of three.

So, basic route then:

Segments 1-4

1. Your house up to Pokey's house
2. Save at hotel before Frank
3. Save at convenient store before Titanic Cave
4. Save before fighting Police, and then head to Twoson and save

Segments 5 and 6 (possibly 7 if save before going to PRV both times):

5. Pay Apple Kid
6. PRV first time
7. PRV second time (make sure to deposit all money beforehand) to Franklin Badge, and deathwarp and save in hotel

Segments 8 and 9:

8. Either sleep or go straight to Burglin Park to buy skip sandwiches, and save at bus station
9. Skip to Threed (not sure how many sandwiches this will take yet; mostly runner's choice if they are good at wall glitchs), and either save at hotel, or go straight on to all events leading up to Winters

Segments 10-13

10. Jeff's moment to shine (or not, if there's still no point in leveling him up, even in this speedrun). save at first convenient store
11. Nessie to end of maze and save
12. Through Shroom's cave, and save before takeoff (i forgot if the speedrun on here now saves before then or not?)
13. Save in Threed's hotel

Segment 14:

14. (long ass segment alert!)
- Stair Glitch to Lumine Hall
- fight Fobbies possibly
- obtain Rabbit's Foot for Ness and kill Electro Specter
- Fall down hole to Lost Underworld and collect Sea Pendant and Cloak of Kings(?)
- Fire spring if Cherub Band is worth it compared to the time it takes to get there
- If in Fire Spring or outside, die to go back to Threed and save at hotel again

Segments 15-end of game segment

15. Stair Glitch to Magicant, and save
16. Grind to [insert levels here] depending on how many enemies were fought previous (I'm gonna assume Paula doesn't need to be above 27?). save - number of times to save depends on how many Die should be fought
17. Fight Ness's Nightmare and save in Saturn Valley
18. Buy necessary items?
19. Go to Onett and save in your house
20. Collect Meteorite fragment and teleport to Saturn Valley. Do all events leading up to appearance in the Past (and save there obviously)
21. Tread through the hell that is the Past, and defeat Giygas

Timing doesn't stop until after you talk to your mom at the end of the game, correct? Or is it after Picky?

Obvious tweaking will definitely be involved, but I thought I'd just stick this route up for now. I didn't include every time we would buy something, obviously, but that can be added in a detailed route later.

I might still attempt a run of this on emulator sometime in the future. I just really want to find a job before doing a project this big, and because I hate going through Onett low leveled... I'm getting a little better at the timing of the stair glitch, though. So, maybe I'll pull this off on console eventually (still a pain in the ass on console since you have to start at the hotel).

I had an idea, since I've been doing this a lot while playing on emulator (and I did it to attempt the stair glitch on console too). Since each segment starts with the player having to go to the graveyard to get a cold, I suggest (depending on who gets the cold) to save again with the ailment. Not only does this use more HP (if you have a lot left after battle), but it also gives the person a better chance since they will always start with the same amount of health at the beginning of the next segment, and reach the grave not having to wait around as long (and possibly much closer to the 20% mark).

I have never been able to get zombies to appear outside of the grave you get trapped in, very commonly (if at all...), so that's why I suggested killing the Evil Tent as well (not collecting the fly honey, obviously), and going in the grave that goes to the Waterfall, and then back to the other grave, after saving. Would that work, or should the runner try their best to spawn zombies outside of that grave each save?

Edit: It's funny walking around Onett and The Past with a flying man behind me, but I don't know if getting a flying man is worth it or not, since he will become a permanent part of your party afterwards, creating an extra character that has to dodge enemies (that, plus if Paula's Teddy Bear wasn't used before now, then you have 6 party members)...

Edit2: We really need to figure out items to actually buy here, especially once we are able to purchase magic tarts in Magicant. I was able to beat Ness's Nightmare easily, but I think I was a tad over leveled (Ness was like 40 something, and Paula was 30 something). Even then, Paula ran out of PP a lot, and I had to magnet the Nightmare many times. How little would a speedrunner have?

Yeah, the problem is the only cave we actually enter that an exit mouse would be useful, is Lumine Hall; otherwise I'd be all over this little glitch.

It's really good to know that we don't have to go to Summers. I feel much better knowing that only two need to be pulled off, instead of three.

So, basic route then:

[b]Segments 1-4[/b]

1. Your house up to Pokey's house
2. Save at hotel before Frank
3. Save at convenient store before Titanic Cave
4. Save before fighting Police, and then head to Twoson and save

[b]Segments 5 and 6 (possibly 7 if save before going to PRV both times[/b]):

5. Pay Apple Kid
6. PRV first time
7. PRV second time (make sure to deposit all money beforehand) to Franklin Badge, and deathwarp and save in hotel

[b]Segments 8 and 9:[/b]

8. Either sleep or go straight to Burglin Park to buy skip sandwiches, and save at bus station
9. Skip to Threed (not sure how many sandwiches this will take yet; mostly runner's choice if they are good at wall glitchs), and either save at hotel, or go straight on to all events leading up to Winters

[b]Segments 10-13[/b]

10. Jeff's moment to shine (or not, if there's still no point in leveling him up, even in this speedrun). save at first convenient store
11. Nessie to end of maze and save
12. Through Shroom's cave, and save before takeoff (i forgot if the speedrun on here now saves before then or not?)
13. Save in Threed's hotel

[b]Segment 14:[/b]

14. (long ass segment alert!) 
       - Stair Glitch to Lumine Hall
       - fight Fobbies possibly
       - obtain Rabbit's Foot for Ness and kill Electro Specter
       - Fall down hole to Lost Underworld and collect Sea Pendant and Cloak of Kings(?)
       - Fire spring if Cherub Band is worth it compared to the time it takes to get there
       - If in Fire Spring or outside, die to go back to Threed and save at hotel again

[b]Segments 15-end of game segment[/b]
 
15. Stair Glitch to Magicant, and save
16. Grind to [insert levels here] depending on how many enemies were fought previous (I'm gonna assume Paula doesn't need to be above 27?). save - number of times to save depends on how many Die should be fought
17. Fight Ness's Nightmare and save in Saturn Valley
18. Buy necessary items?
19. Go to Onett and save in your house
20. Collect Meteorite fragment and teleport to Saturn Valley. Do all events leading up to appearance in the Past (and save there obviously)
21. Tread through the hell that is the Past, and defeat Giygas

Timing doesn't stop until after you talk to your mom at the end of the game, correct? Or is it after Picky?

Obvious tweaking will definitely be involved, but I thought I'd just stick this route up for now. I didn't include every time we would buy something, obviously, but that can be added in a detailed route later.

I might still attempt a run of this on emulator sometime in the future. I just really want to find a job before doing a project this big, and because I hate going through Onett low leveled... I'm getting a little better at the timing of the stair glitch, though. So, maybe I'll pull this off on console eventually (still a pain in the ass on console since you have to start at the hotel).

I had an idea, since I've been doing this a lot while playing on emulator (and I did it to attempt the stair glitch on console too). Since each segment starts with the player having to go to the graveyard to get a cold, I suggest (depending on who gets the cold) to save again with the ailment. Not only does this use more HP (if you have a lot left after battle), but it also gives the person a better chance since they will always start with the same amount of health at the beginning of the next segment, and reach the grave not having to wait around as long (and possibly much closer to the 20% mark).

I have never been able to get zombies to appear outside of the grave you get trapped in, very commonly (if at all...), so that's why I suggested killing the Evil Tent as well (not collecting the fly honey, obviously), and going in the grave that goes to the Waterfall, and then back to the other grave, after saving. Would that work, or should the runner try their best to spawn zombies outside of that grave each save?

Edit: It's funny walking around Onett and The Past with a flying man behind me, but I don't know if getting a flying man is worth it or not, since he will become a permanent part of your party afterwards, creating an extra character that has to dodge enemies (that, plus if Paula's Teddy Bear wasn't used before now, then you have 6 party members)...

Edit2: We really need to figure out items to actually buy here, especially once we are able to purchase magic tarts in Magicant. I was able to beat Ness's Nightmare easily, but I think I was a tad over leveled (Ness was like 40 something, and Paula was 30 something). Even then, Paula ran out of PP a lot, and I had to magnet the Nightmare many times. How little would a speedrunner have?

__sdfg

2010-03-25 06:34:29 pm

D:

Quote from Mickey_Mage:

Timing doesn't stop until after you talk to your mom at the end of the game, correct? Or is it after Picky?

Mike cut off the timing for my run when I defeated Giygas. It would have been listed as 4:20-ish if the timing had included everything up to talking to my mom.

Mickey_Mage

2010-03-25 11:04:57 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Oh yeah, I forgot we came to the decision that there's no point in timing after beating Giygas, even if you can move afterwards.

Floogal

2010-03-26 02:08:57 am

If Paula is running out of PP on Ness's Nightmare, consider just using PSI Shield alpha on herself, and reviving Ness after it's out of PP. The nightmare can only do 8 Rockin Omegas total -- after that point, revive Ness with an item, PSI Shield him a few times while letting Paula's run out. Ness should be able to finish off his nightmare on his own as Paula drops. This requires stalling & waiting, but is much more PP-conservative. It also means that Paula doesn't need to be nearly as high of a level.

Also, if getting a cold is an issue, keep in mind that ANY interrupt to movement works. Maybe using a For Sale Sign could work -- you'd need to wait for the phone call to say they can't find you, but at least it's a fixed time (use your watch), and you don't need to rely on the random-generator for enemies. It also means that you don't need to cure a sickness (or risk someone going KO'd) after starting the glitch.

__sdfg

2010-03-26 07:07:43 am

D:

Quote from Mickey_Mage:

Oh yeah, I forgot we came to the decision that there's no point in timing after beating Giygas, even if you can move afterwards.

In that case, I think the glitched run should end by losing to one of the Shattered Men in Summers and freezing the game.

Mickey_Mage

2010-03-26 02:45:43 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

So, you want to do the same strategy against Giygas, too? That might be harder since I don't think he has a PP limit, does he (you can steal PP from Giygas and Pokey, but Pokey normally is done before Giygas would actually run out...)? I guess Shield Alpha on Paula might help in that battle, too, but Pokey hurts when he hits...

Do you know what the exact amount of time is for the For Sale Sign customer (if they can't find you)? I'm guessing timing starts right after the person hangs up the phone, too. I've only ever used that once, so I forgot completely about that thing. It's a good suggestion, little pricey, but could work. I'll try it out.

ShinerCCC

2010-03-26 05:36:48 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Quote from __sdfg:

Quote from Mickey_Mage:

Oh yeah, I forgot we came to the decision that there's no point in timing after beating Giygas, even if you can move afterwards.

In that case, I think the glitched run should end by losing to one of the Shattered Men in Summers and freezing the game.

YES

Mickey_Mage

2010-03-26 07:42:27 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Doesn't that delete your save files as well, when you do that? haha

Floogal

2010-03-29 02:05:58 am

Quote from Mickey_Mage:

So, you want to do the same strategy against Giygas, too? That might be harder since I don't think he has a PP limit, does he (you can steal PP from Giygas and Pokey, but Pokey normally is done before Giygas would actually run out...)? I guess Shield Alpha on Paula might help in that battle, too, but Pokey hurts when he hits...

Nah. After finishing Magicant, Ness should be strong enough to solo the first phase of the fight (assuming he takes all the experience for his nightmare, he'll be at least level 40 with 450+ HP & 360+ PP). Start off by paralyzing Pokey -- he should go down within two attempts. Then start bashing him, healing when Giygas's rockin gets your HP too low.

If Paula has the Rabbit's Foot & PSI Shield sigma, then you could try a full-party assault. She keeps everyone protected from Giygas, while Ness bashes/heals after paralyzing Pokey, and Poo can help out a bit with PSI Freeze. Jeff will be useless, save for any offensive items you may have. The main issue with using everyone is surviving the first round -- Giygas is quite fast, and everyone but Ness is going to have such horrid HP.

If Ness is going solo, but you picked up the Cloak of Kings for Poo (recommended if you don't get the Rabbit's Foot, as you need someone with good speed to help run from encounters in Onett & Cave of the Past), then he might be able to get off a PSI Brainshock on Giygas before he drops. It doesn't help you defensively (Giygas blasting himself still reflects the damage onto Ness), but it means that 50% of the time Pokey will be taking friendly fire. Should speed things up.

Of course, during phase 2, revive Paula, and win. Unless you don't have the Franklin Badge -- in that case, Ness should stay alive to keep her from dropping to stray thunder bolts. Ness should invest in a Night Pendant from the Saturn Valley shop in that case, or perhaps an Earth Pendant from Magicant.

Side note: when going after the meteorite piece in Onett, consider using repeated PSI Teleports to get around without encounters. The enemies don't move during the animation, and you can see their positions briefly in the "burnt-out" phase of the attempts. It's not foolproof -- occasionally they'll just be in an unavoidable position (you can't run through them, just around them). But there is a save point 1/3 of the way in....

[quote="Mickey_Mage"]So, you want to do the same strategy against Giygas, too? That might be harder since I don't think he has a PP limit, does he (you can steal PP from Giygas and Pokey, but Pokey normally is done before Giygas would actually run out...)? I guess Shield Alpha on Paula might help in that battle, too, but Pokey hurts when he hits...[/quote]Nah.  After finishing Magicant, Ness should be strong enough to solo the first phase of the fight (assuming he takes all the experience for his nightmare, he'll be at least level 40 with 450+ HP & 360+ PP).  Start off by paralyzing Pokey -- he should go down within two attempts.  Then start bashing him, healing when Giygas's rockin gets your HP too low.

If Paula has the Rabbit's Foot & PSI Shield sigma, then you could try a full-party assault.  She keeps everyone protected from Giygas, while Ness bashes/heals after paralyzing Pokey, and Poo can help out a bit with PSI Freeze.  Jeff will be useless, save for any offensive items you may have.  The main issue with using everyone is surviving the first round -- Giygas is quite fast, and everyone but Ness is going to have such horrid HP.

If Ness is going solo, but you picked up the Cloak of Kings for Poo (recommended if you don't get the Rabbit's Foot, as you need someone with good speed to help run from encounters in Onett & Cave of the Past), then he might be able to get off a PSI Brainshock on Giygas before he drops.  It doesn't help you defensively (Giygas blasting himself still reflects the damage onto Ness), but it means that 50% of the time Pokey will be taking friendly fire.  Should speed things up.

Of course, during phase 2, revive Paula, and win.  Unless you don't have the Franklin Badge -- in that case, Ness should stay alive to keep her from dropping to stray thunder bolts.  Ness should invest in a Night Pendant from the Saturn Valley shop in that case, or perhaps an Earth Pendant from Magicant.

Side note: when going after the meteorite piece in Onett, consider using repeated PSI Teleports to get around without encounters.  The enemies don't move during the animation, and you can see their positions briefly in the "burnt-out" phase of the attempts.  It's not foolproof -- occasionally they'll just be in an unavoidable position (you can't run through them, just around them).  But there is a save point 1/3 of the way in....

Mickey_Mage

2010-03-29 10:17:02 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Other than the 200k experience Ness receives from all of the Sanctuaries (funny he still does without actually going to them), unless Paula happens to die, and Ness finishes the Nightmare off, I don't see him getting all of it. So, give it about 2 attempts of paralysis on Pokey before restarting that segment? Still, 50/50 chances suck in this case.

I still think it's good to invest in the Franklin Badge, not just for the sake of the final battle with Paula, but because we need the Rabbit's Foot, too, so we need to fight Electro. If it turns out that we can do this run without either item, then that would be amazing to watch (even though the luck required would be insane).

If we get the Cloak of Kings, then we can't buy an extra Earth Pendant for Poo, as they occupy the same slot. I like the idea of Brainshock starting at the first form of Giygas though; because as you said, the reflection will only hit Ness, which isn't too bad overall (have someone else give him food or something to heal?) since he does have the most HP and PP.

I actually tested teleporting in Onett last night. It works very well for running away from those encounters, which I don't think we want to run into, period.

Other than the 200k experience Ness receives from all of the Sanctuaries (funny he still does without actually going to them), unless Paula happens to die, and Ness finishes the Nightmare off, I don't see him getting all of it. So, give it about 2 attempts of paralysis on Pokey before restarting that segment? Still, 50/50 chances suck in this case.

I still think it's good to invest in the Franklin Badge, not just for the sake of the final battle with Paula, but because we need the Rabbit's Foot, too, so we need to fight Electro. If it turns out that we can do this run without either item, then that would be amazing to watch (even though the luck required would be insane).

If we get the Cloak of Kings, then we can't buy an extra Earth Pendant for Poo, as they occupy the same slot. I like the idea of Brainshock starting at the first form of Giygas though; because as you said, the reflection will only hit Ness, which isn't too bad overall (have someone else give him food or something to heal?) since he does have the most HP and PP.

I actually tested teleporting in Onett last night. It works very well for running away from those encounters, which I don't think we want to run into, period.

Mickey_Mage

2010-03-29 10:29:48 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Does ANYBODY know the exact timing on how long it takes the person to call you back after you use the For Sale Sign (and when the damn timer starts)? I keep starting at a specific time on my watch, but I've gotten times right on 80 seconds, 1 second afterward, and 2 seconds less (even though I started right on an increment of 5-10-15-20, etc. It's really starting to piss me off. I've gotten it to work once, but I must know if it varies at all... This is a much better strategy than getting poisoned, though. So, I have a good feeling about pulling the walk through stairs glitch off on console, if I can only get the exact timing down for the sign Undecided

ShinerCCC

2010-03-30 02:14:19 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Is it a number of seconds elapsed, or amount of steps you take?

Someone should do memory watch in emulator and see if there's a timer that ticks down...

Mickey_Mage

2010-03-30 03:42:34 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Well, I know it has nothing to do with steps taken; because you can use the sign while under the grave, which makes it convenient to do the glitch, even if you have to wait awhile... If walking does interfere (I did a few times move back and forth along the stairs to the ladder and back, but only to position myself), then that might make things difficult, unless it is in fact a set time, and I'm just bad with a watch... If I can find any kind of stop watch, I'll try that, too, instead of a watch.

Nitrodon

2010-03-30 03:47:55 pm

I suspect it stops during room transitions and when you're in a menu.

Mickey_Mage

2010-03-31 10:19:51 pm

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

It's going to be based completely off of luck it seems to pull this off with the For Sale Sign. From doing this on a stopwatch for the past hour or so, I get times from ~1:18-~1:20 or 1:21 (these times are based on me hitting the start button RIGHT as I push the A button to end the text after it says a customer is coming)... \

I can't determine everytime when the phone will ring, and sometimes I will get 1:20 several times in a row, or 1:18 for awhile, too. So, there's no pattern for the times either. For the record, after I hold up the sign, and end the text, I do not move. This means that moving does not affect the time.

Again, I am doing all of this by hand. If anybody is able to look at the actual coding for this item, or some other method to see the timing, that would be helpful to know how random it can be.

Floogal

2010-04-01 03:50:07 am

Well, let's think about how other such timing interrupts work. I'm pretty sure that Ness's Dad calls you after two hours of consecutive gameplay, but that's obviously not very convenient.

Now, Escargo Express, Mach Pizza, and the For Sale Sign probably all work off of the same timer variable, as using one of them disables the other two services until the first one is completed.

Now, take note of this trick I discovered for quick realtime pizzas:
- order a pizza
- save your game, then immediately reset & reload your file
- the pizza man will immediately try to deliver the pizza to you after 1 second of gameplay
- If he can't deliver it to you at that time (not enough "off-screen" space on one screen edge), he'll try again in about 15 seconds
- In most hotels, immediately moving down to the corner right after loading your game is usually sufficient to get him to deliver

So, conclusions I've made:
- The game has a timer counting down for your event. When it reaches zero, it will try to have the person meet you (the gameplay will pause briefly as the game does a check to see if someone can reach you).
- If it determines that someone can't reach you without going through solid objects, it adds some more to the timer and tries again. It keeps trying several times until you eventually get the "I give up" phone call.
- Saving the game saves the fact that you are waiting for a service, but not what the time remaining is. So when you reload your save, the timer gets a default value of 1 second.

Now, I've tried it just now, and if you save at the Threed hotel & then immediately go to the grave after reloading your save, you'll reach it before PDG tries his second attempt to deliver. But the timer does seem ...random. If you wait in the hotel, he seems to try again around 15 seconds later, but if you walk to the grave, it's about 30 second.

Perhaps lag from people mess it up? Or maybe the game designers wanted to model real life by making it slightly different each time? Almost all damage values are altered by +/- 25 or 50% after formulas, so perhaps timers are to.

Still, it seems that using Mach Pizza may be faster than using a For Sale Sign (which saves you money, too).

Well, let's think about how other such timing interrupts work.  I'm pretty sure that Ness's Dad calls you after two hours of consecutive gameplay, but that's obviously not very convenient.

Now, Escargo Express, Mach Pizza, and the For Sale Sign probably all work off of the same timer variable, as using one of them disables the other two services until the first one is completed.

Now, take note of this trick I discovered for quick realtime pizzas:
- order a pizza
- save your game, then immediately reset & reload your file
- the pizza man will immediately try to deliver the pizza to you after 1 second of gameplay
- If he can't deliver it to you at that time (not enough "off-screen" space on one screen edge), he'll try again in about 15 seconds
- In most hotels, immediately moving down to the corner right after loading your game is usually sufficient to get him to deliver

So, conclusions I've made:
- The game has a timer counting down for your event.  When it reaches zero, it will try to have the person meet you (the gameplay will pause briefly as the game does a check to see if someone can reach you).
- If it determines that someone can't reach you without going through solid objects, it adds some more to the timer and tries again.  It keeps trying several times until you eventually get the "I give up" phone call.
- Saving the game saves the fact that you are waiting for a service, but not what the time remaining is.  So when you reload your save, the timer gets a default value of 1 second.

Now, I've tried it just now, and if you save at the Threed hotel & then immediately go to the grave after reloading your save, you'll reach it before PDG tries his second attempt to deliver.  But the timer does seem ...random.  If you wait in the hotel, he seems to try again around 15 seconds later, but if you walk to the grave, it's about 30 second.

Perhaps lag from people mess it up?  Or maybe the game designers wanted to model real life by making it slightly different each time?  Almost all damage values are altered by +/- 25 or 50% after formulas, so perhaps timers are to.

Still, it seems that using Mach Pizza may be faster than using a For Sale Sign (which saves you money, too).

Mickey_Mage

2010-04-06 10:57:28 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

Quote:

Or maybe the game designers wanted to model real life by making it slightly different each time?

I think this, since I held up the For Sale Sign while underneath the grave. So, there shouldn't really be any lag in the first place.

Anyway, I have good news. Using the Mach Pizza Guy is the best idea for a runner for doing the stairs glitch. Thanks for the suggestion, Floogal. Smiley

Granted, I think I just got lucky both times I pulled it off on console using that, but it's better since you don't have to wait as long underneath the grave (don't know exact times). And it beats the hell out of getting a cold and waiting for your health to go down...

I think luck is going to play a big hand in a run doing this glitch twice; because I got it first try both times on console this past weekend, by just walking back and forth along the top of the stairs, and was able to pull it off. Obviously, that wouldn't happen that easily in a run 100% of the time, though. Just waiting at the top of the stairs, and trying to hit forward at the exact time you need to go seems too difficult most of the time, in my opinion. I mean, a runner only needs to get the glitch twice, after a save no less. So, if that person can pull it off and have a good segment in Lumine Hall and Underworld, then the hardest segment is over. The second one is better since you get to save immediately upon reaching Magicant (unless the runner chooses to buy an Earth Pendant and Magic Puddings before saving), giving the runner more of a break after pulling off such a hard glitch again.

[quote]Or maybe the game designers wanted to model real life by making it slightly different each time?[/quote]

I think this, since I held up the For Sale Sign while underneath the grave. So, there shouldn't really be any lag in the first place.

Anyway, I have good news. Using the Mach Pizza Guy is the best idea for a runner for doing the stairs glitch. Thanks for the suggestion, Floogal. :) Granted, I think I just got lucky both times I pulled it off on console using that, but it's better since you don't have to wait as long underneath the grave (don't know exact times). And it beats the hell out of getting a cold and waiting for your health to go down...

I think luck is going to play a big hand in a run doing this glitch twice; because I got it first try both times on console this past weekend, by just walking back and forth along the top of the stairs, and was able to pull it off. Obviously, that wouldn't happen that easily in a run 100% of the time, though. Just waiting at the top of the stairs, and trying to hit forward at the exact time you need to go seems too difficult most of the time, in my opinion. I mean, a runner only needs to get the glitch twice, after a save no less. So, if that person can pull it off and have a good segment in Lumine Hall and Underworld, then the hardest segment is over. The second one is better since you get to save immediately upon reaching Magicant (unless the runner chooses to buy an Earth Pendant and Magic Puddings before saving), giving the runner more of a break after pulling off such a hard glitch again.

MUGG

2010-05-29 04:13:35 am

TASer

Quote:

Well, I know it has nothing to do with steps taken; because you can use the sign while under the grave, which makes it convenient to do the glitch, even if you have to wait awhile...

If you enter a building at the same time where a customer comes your way, the sequence will be skipped. He won't ever come, even if you leave the building, but he will still call you later on. This glitch might be of use...
When the customer comes, the will be ~20 frames of lag, which you can use to start holding towards the door of a building (you need to be right next to it). The game will check 4 or 5 times whether the customer can come, lagging for about 20 frames each time, until the customer will eventually call you.

Mickey_Mage

2010-05-30 10:52:11 am

Glitching EB 1 flying man at a time

The pizza guy still seems to be the fastest so far, since some of that time is used up walking to the graveyard from the hotel anyway. Although, would there be any time increase if I held up the For Sale Sign in the hotel, and then saved and reloaded? Either way, I still don't know how I'm going to do the timing for the stairs glitch... I might just have to rely purely on luck for this, even with a timer.

The only segment I would be worried about is going to Lumine Hall and then the Underworld (well, both segments that involve the walk through stairs glitch will be a bitch just to pull it off...). Is the increase in defense from the Cherub Band worth going to Fire Spring? Remember, I don't have teleporting capabilities, so it's a long walk. I know I need the sea pendant, though, so that's covered. Just don't want to run into any stray dinosaurs... Other than that, Fire Spring is easy with the sea pendant (even Ness can survive for a little while down there without it).