Dungeons and Dragons: Shadow Over Mystara

2013-08-01 06:57:31 am

The bigger, the better.

Hi, i'm new to SDA Forum, and I want to make a awesome run of this game. I won't be happy with less then epic. But, I need to be sure of some things while i'm training to make THE RUN. Since the game got released now for PS3/PC/WIIU/XBOX360, it can now be run without an emulator. I'm doing it on PC, since i still have to find a decent way to capture the PS3 gameplay, and already did the configs for doing it while streaming on PC.

But on with the questions:

1) I think that the runs are going to be divided by Character. A Magic-User run would be a lot different than a Cleric one. Not a doubt here, but it's nice to mark that to be sure.
2) The Red Dragon makes a huge difference in the run. I believe that skipping it is a necessity on a any% run. Or not? The Magic-User might want to do it for the extra level up and spells.
3) The timer on runs start when you gain control of the character in the game. So i believe that it should be when you select the character at the start of the game.
4) Any routes suggestion? I intend to go thru River (for the extra gold and having no need to worry on picking up gold later for buying Lightning Bolt Rings for Ezerhorden on gnome village), then Ogre Brothers, , saving the gnomes (Lightning Bolt Rings!) , Frost Salamander (since i can Large Burning Oil it if i have some left), and not getting the Nagpa fight skip, since it's only possible with Dwarf.
5) Deathless should be a separate category. It's way harder.
6) Game difficulty: the easiest possible (for the sake of speed), or hardest possible (for the sake of skill)?
7) My first test of a run made a time of 50:07 with Cleric. It's ugly yet, has some meaningless deaths. But that makes me think that this game can easily be done as single-segmented, because it doesn't take much time.

Anything you guys think it's important helps! I played a lot the game, but there is always something lurky you don't know. Any help is welcome!

Thread title:

Hi, i'm new to SDA Forum, and I want to make a awesome run of this game. I won't be happy with less then epic. But, I need to be sure of some things while i'm training to make THE RUN. Since the game got released now for PS3/PC/WIIU/XBOX360, it can now be run without an emulator. I'm doing it on PC, since i still have to find a decent way to capture the PS3 gameplay, and already did the configs for doing it while streaming on PC.

But on with the questions:

1) I think that the runs are going to be divided by Character. A Magic-User run would be a lot different than a Cleric one. Not a doubt here, but it's nice to mark that to be sure.
2) The Red Dragon makes a huge difference in the run. I believe that skipping it is a necessity on a any% run. Or not? The Magic-User might want to do it for the extra level up and spells. 
3) The timer on runs start when you gain control of the character in the game. So i believe that it should be when you select the character at the start of the game. 
4) Any routes suggestion? I intend to go thru River (for the extra gold and having no need to worry on picking up gold later for buying Lightning Bolt Rings for Ezerhorden on gnome village), then Ogre Brothers, , saving the gnomes (Lightning Bolt Rings!) , Frost Salamander (since i can Large Burning Oil it if i have some left), and not getting the Nagpa fight skip, since it's only possible with Dwarf. 
5) Deathless should be a separate category. It's way harder. 
6) Game difficulty: the easiest possible (for the sake of speed), or hardest possible (for the sake of skill)?  
7) My first test of a run made a time of 50:07 with Cleric. It's ugly yet, has some meaningless deaths. But that makes me think that this game can easily be done as single-segmented, because it doesn't take much time.

Anything you guys think it's important helps! I played a lot the game, but there is always something lurky you don't know. Any help is welcome!

MURPHAGATOR!

2013-08-01 04:24:39 pm

Terraffirmative!

Glad to see a new member take up interest in this. I can definitely help out with at least some basic information.

1) Characters are absolutely a different category.
2) I see no reason you would ever fight the red dragon in a run, you'd have to really show you'd gain a ton of time from the rewards he gives you, which are absolutely not worth it. 100% in this game would be ill-defined, and seeing as there are already a huge number of categories based on characters it'd be unnecessary anyways.
3) No, timer starts when you can first move the character after picking him for SDA timing. You can time it from the time you select if you want but that's not how SDA timing will work.
4) The routing for this game is pretty non-trivial, but I can say I'm pretty sure the runs I've seen on youtube have gone basically the opposite choice on every part from what you suggested. That said, most of those runs are TAS's, so its difficult to say exactly what the best choices are.
5) Personally, I am of the opinion that if you aren't going to 1cc an arcade game, you shouldn't be submitting it. In a game like this one especially, since magic user could use a ton of death abuse to refresh spells. I can't say for sure if SDA has a policy on this.... Actually, thinking on this more, if you do not 1cc the game, characters no longer are separate categories since you can switch freely on a credit, meaning that switching characters during the run would, in theory, produce a more optimal route.
6) Arcade games are again a tricky point for this. Most arcade cabinets were ran on whatever the default boot difficulty was, and so in my opinion that's the correct choice. In general, SDA accepts separate runs on the easiest, hardest, and sometimes the default difficulty in cases where it is selectable.

I know a lot of people have expressed interest in the game in the past, but there hasn't been much progress since this port was released. It is certainly on my list of potential projects, but because of the extreme amount of planning and difficulty involved, along with a huge amount of information which is sort of out there in the form of some Japanese TAS's that don't have any real documentation, I have yet to touch it.

Glad to see a new member take up interest in this. I can definitely help out with at least some basic information.

1) Characters are absolutely a different category.
2) I see no reason you would ever fight the red dragon in a run, you'd have to really show you'd gain a ton of time from the rewards he gives you, which are absolutely not worth it. 100% in this game would be ill-defined, and seeing as there are already a huge number of categories based on characters it'd be unnecessary anyways.
3) No, timer starts when you can first move the character after picking him for SDA timing. You can time it from the time you select if you want but that's not how SDA timing will work.
4) The routing for this game is pretty non-trivial, but I can say I'm pretty sure the runs I've seen on youtube have gone basically the opposite choice on every part from what you suggested. That said, most of those runs are TAS's, so its difficult to say exactly what the best choices are.
5) Personally, I am of the opinion that if you aren't going to 1cc an arcade game, you shouldn't be submitting it. In a game like this one especially, since magic user could use a ton of death abuse to refresh spells. I can't say for sure if SDA has a policy on this.... Actually, thinking on this more, if you do not 1cc the game, characters no longer are separate categories since you can switch freely on a credit, meaning that switching characters during the run would, in theory, produce a more optimal route.
6) Arcade games are again a tricky point for this. Most arcade cabinets were ran on whatever the default boot difficulty was, and so in my opinion that's the correct choice. In general, SDA accepts separate runs on the easiest, hardest, and sometimes the default difficulty in cases where it is selectable.

I know a lot of people have expressed interest in the game in the past, but there hasn't been much progress since this port was released. It is certainly on my list of potential projects, but because of the extreme amount of planning and difficulty involved, along with a huge amount of information which is sort of out there in the form of some Japanese TAS's that don't have any real documentation, I have yet to touch it.

hugo4fun

Edit history:

hugo4fun: 2013-08-03 10:05:35 pm

hugo4fun: 2013-08-03 07:35:15 am

2013-08-03 07:33:00 am

The bigger, the better.

Thanks for the info murphagator! That helps a lot already.

3) Hmm, that saves around 6-8 seconds. So i think it's when the Character unsheats the weapon at the start of the first level. I'll adjust my times from here onwards.
4) I think that might change as well depending on the character. I started to train with a Cleric run(PB is 47:10 now, but not near a decent run yet), and the few TAS runs i looked used M.User or Fighter or Dwarf. But i found a run with cleric that doesn't look a TAS one and it's not necessarily a speedrun, but it's pretty good for studying strategies on bosses and routes, and uses the almost the same route as i use.
The main difference is that he goes after the Beholder instead of the Ogre Brothers, gets a way faster kill than me at the boss, but i think he takes longer than me to finish the level since he stops to collect almost every room. Also, his strategy can be used to kill the Ogre faster and still get the skip where you don't fight both of them.
For reference:

5) I agree, 1cc is the way to do it. But since the death abuses can be used as a way to acelerate the run (example: changing to the dwarf to fight Tel'Arin 2 earlier and killing only him to get the Nagpa skip), we can't rule them out. But i think we can separate them as different runs. So a single character run must be deathless to be submitted, and runs with deaths don't have a character restriction , but are a different category. Of course, that's just an idea, SDA will always make the last decision.
6) I don't remember if the arcade version of DDSoM were like this ( i played on arcade when i was like 12~13 years old, then just on emulators), but some arcades used to increase their dificulties when peoples played longer on them. I saw this on some pinballs and some fighting games, but i don't remember it for DDSoM. And most runs i see on youtube are done on hardest. The port gives you the option at the start, not giving necessarily a parameter, it marks the last one you used i believe. I think hardest (Lv8 for Arcades, and four skulls on ports) it's the way to do it, since it's the most common i see in videos and probably the machine end up going to Lv8 from playing.
If you find those TAS, please post them here or send me a message, i'd love to have more material for studying. And thanks again for the help!
Edit: Trying to write it a bit more right.

Thanks for the info murphagator! That helps a lot already.

3) Hmm, that saves around 6-8 seconds. So i think it's when the Character unsheats the weapon at the start of the first level. I'll adjust my times from here onwards. 
4) I think that might change as well depending on the character. I started to train with a Cleric run(PB is 47:10 now, but not near a decent run yet), and the few TAS runs i looked used M.User or Fighter or Dwarf. But i found a run with cleric that doesn't look a TAS one and it's not necessarily a speedrun, but it's pretty good for studying strategies on bosses and routes, and uses the almost the same route as i use. 
The main difference is that he goes after the Beholder instead of the Ogre Brothers, gets a way faster kill than me at the boss, but i think he takes longer than me to finish the level since he stops to collect almost every room. Also, his strategy can be used to kill the Ogre faster and still get the skip where you don't fight both of them. 
For reference:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3pd31eBrOE

5) I agree, 1cc is the way to do it. But since the death abuses can be used as a way to acelerate the run (example: changing to the dwarf to fight Tel'Arin 2 earlier and killing only him to get the Nagpa skip), we can't rule them out. But i think we can separate them as different runs. So a single character run must be deathless to be submitted, and runs with deaths don't have a character restriction , but are a different category. Of course, that's just an idea, SDA will always make the last decision. 
6) I don't remember if the arcade version of DDSoM were like this ( i played on arcade when i was like 12~13 years old, then just on emulators), but some arcades used to increase their dificulties when peoples played longer on them. I saw this on some pinballs and some fighting games, but i don't remember it for DDSoM. And most runs i see on youtube are done on hardest. The port gives you the option at the start, not giving necessarily a parameter, it marks the last one you used i believe. I think hardest (Lv8 for Arcades, and four skulls on ports) it's the way to do it, since it's the most common i see in videos and probably the machine end up going to Lv8 from playing.
If you find those TAS, please post them here or send me a message, i'd love to have more material for studying. And thanks again for the help!
Edit: Trying to write it a bit more right.

mikwuyma

2013-08-08 06:10:30 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Hey I just caught this topic. First off, I highly recommend you check out crassus1's youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/crassus1

There is a ton of good info and crazy tricks on that channel. I'm pretty sure the time attack stuff is segmented or TASed, because there's no way you can get that lucky just stealing stuff normally with the thief, but even the no item replays or normal plays are very helpful.

1. What murph said, characters are definitely a separate category.

2. There is no reason to fight the red dragon, especially since you can kill Synn with the lightning critical hit glitch.* Also, you don't need to go to the gnome village for lightning rings, there's one available if you pick the train path as the second stage.

3. Character control is right after your character poses and you can start walking around.

4. I'm 99% sure the river is longer than the train. The only way I could see the river being shorter is using a no-encounters route (I know one exists, but I don't know what the specifics are).

While you get one long encounter if you take the beholder path, I'm pretty sure that's still shorter than ogre brothers. If you choose the Ogre brothers path, then you'd have to pull off the quick kill where you kill the first ogre brother before the second one even appears.

There is absolutely no reason to save the gnomes, it only wastes time.

I would definitely recommend frost salamander because large burning oils destroy it.

5. I agree with Murph's opinion on arcade games, but for SDA rules yeah deathless and deaths are separate categories for this game. Mind you that character categories are only a thing if you don't die, since you can change characters the moment you die.

6. I'd go with arcade default or hardest.

7. I guess you could segment this game, but that seems pointless since it's originally an arcade game. There are a lot of 1cc playthroughs out there that are single-segment, so I would definitely recommend single-segment.

*Lightning critical hit glitch: Basically, if you hit Synn quickly in succession 3 times then cast lightning (it can be a lightning ring), then you'll instantly kill her with a lightning spell. It's easier said than done, but absolutely necessary in a speedrun.

Hey I just caught this topic. First off, I highly recommend you check out crassus1's youtube channel. https://www.youtube.com/crassus1

There is a ton of good info and crazy tricks on that channel. I'm pretty sure the time attack stuff is segmented or TASed, because there's no way you can get that lucky just stealing stuff normally with the thief, but even the no item replays or normal plays are very helpful.

1. What murph said, characters are definitely a separate category.

2. There is no reason to fight the red dragon, especially since you can kill Synn with the lightning critical hit glitch.* Also, you don't need to go to the gnome village for lightning rings, there's one available if you pick the train path as the second stage.

3. Character control is right after your character poses and you can start walking around.

4. I'm 99% sure the river is longer than the train. The only way I could see the river being shorter is using a no-encounters route (I know one exists, but I don't know what the specifics are).

While you get one long encounter if you take the beholder path, I'm pretty sure that's still shorter than ogre brothers. If you choose the Ogre brothers path, then you'd have to pull off the quick kill where you kill the first ogre brother before the second one even appears.

There is absolutely no reason to save the gnomes, it only wastes time.

I would definitely recommend frost salamander because large burning oils destroy it.

5. I agree with Murph's opinion on arcade games, but for SDA rules yeah deathless and deaths are separate categories for this game. Mind you that character categories are only a thing if you don't die, since you can change characters the moment you die.

6. I'd go with arcade default or hardest.

7. I guess you could segment this game, but that seems pointless since it's originally an arcade game. There are a lot of 1cc playthroughs out there that are single-segment, so I would definitely recommend single-segment.

*Lightning critical hit glitch: Basically, if you hit Synn quickly in succession 3 times then cast lightning (it can be a lightning ring), then you'll instantly kill her with a lightning spell. It's easier said than done, but absolutely necessary in a speedrun.

hugo4fun

2013-08-08 06:34:41 pm

The bigger, the better.

Thanks mikwuyma! Watching his videos right now.

I've some things to check and ask about the run, but since i think i'll find lots of solutions on the videos, i'll watch them before asking. I'm aware of the Lightning Critical Hit glitch, but never tried (thinking on improving my gameplay in general first). About it, i've read somewhere that while hitting, you must check that his eyes are completely closed, then LB it. That should help to find the correct timing.

mikwuyma

2013-08-08 06:36:18 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Honestly, I've found that by the time I see that Synn's eyes are closed, it's too late and I don't get the glitch.

hugo4fun

Edit history:

hugo4fun: 2013-08-14 09:46:36 pm

2013-08-14 09:43:34 pm

The bigger, the better.

I've did some test on the Lightning critical hit glitch on Red Dragon, since him and Synn have the same life and almost identical patterns. Speed on hitting seems to be the only issue to get the glitch, the animation itself doesn't matter. It's also easier if you can get him with the patterns that he takes longer to go up. But the damage varies from character AND items. Taking cleric as an example, it's a must to have Rod of Lightning + Earrings. With both, it's a instant kill. With only earrings, it takes exactly 2 life bars. Without any of them, it takes only a bit more than one bar. But with the Elf, only the earrings is enough for a instant kill.

Edit: I saw most of the videos. He gets those LBOils very easily on the Thief run... I really have a lot to learn from there. I found a site (dndmania.net), but it's all in korean, so it's hard to decipher something even with google translator. But i'm trying to get something from there.

hugo4fun

Edit history:

hugo4fun: 2013-08-27 10:35:56 pm

hugo4fun: 2013-08-25 05:20:40 pm

2013-08-25 01:17:53 pm

The bigger, the better.

I've located a possible problem: the Forest Labirynth.
It seems that on the ports, the right path is now random and with no visual cue, different from before where if the goblin destroys the sign, follow the goblin and if the sign is not destroyed, go to the opposite way of the sign.
Mainly because on the PC port, the goblin always destroy the sign, and following him or not following him it's not sure to get the right path. That ads some luck to the run, because the path of the forest, even if you get the penalty stage, is way faster than going thru the Chimera and the goblin village. The fastest way is simply to run past everything and hope for the best. Damn.

Edit: Tested on PS3 port. Same problem.

Edit2: http://www.chinadd2.com/light-bolt-dragon.html
That site tells some interesting data, and this part is about the LB Crit.

hugo4fun

2013-09-25 09:13:02 pm

The bigger, the better.

Updating some stuff while bumping:

- The river route without fights is rather easy. First part keep holding forward, go straight thru the mid, then after the 3 goblins go all the way up thru the crack and slow just a bit to avoid the Troglodyte. That will grab some silver bags, and then it's a clear path to the cave. The second part, go straight thru the mid til after the game shows the three red arrows for ways to go, pass the Gnoll Archers, then go all the way down, slowing just a bit to enter the lower part for more gold. That route nets each character 4,500g.
- I saw mike's video playing with butters. About the Rod of Fire, with the dwarf there is no certain place to get it before the Frost Salamander. It can be achieved from Hellhound drop, but not reliable. You fight lots of them in the Ogre Brothers route, if you take it.
- With cleric, it's easier to lock the Ogre Brother (1st one) with Hold Person right after he would fall on ground. If he touches it, he will call his brother. Usually i'm spending some Continual Light to get him to almost half life, then switch to full combo-> charge attack -> Hold Person and repeat to finish it off.
- about the LB Crit Glitch: i have a feeling that it works when the 3 hits are a bit "faster". The 3rd hit pratically cancels into LB, and the crit happens.
- Watching the korean vids, i was looking for strats for cleric, then i noticed that at Ogre Brothers stage, he tries to hit a downed creep, and does a REALLY fast motion of hitting, but doesn't hit because of his positioning. I'm pretty sure that he was using a Turbo Controller for the run.

Updating some stuff while bumping:

- The river route without fights is rather easy. First part keep holding forward, go straight thru the mid, then after the 3 goblins go all the way up thru the crack and slow just a bit to avoid the Troglodyte. That will grab some silver bags, and then it's a clear path to the cave. The second part, go straight thru the mid til after the game shows the three red arrows for ways to go, pass the Gnoll Archers, then go all the way down, slowing just a bit to enter the lower part for more gold. That route nets each character 4,500g. 
- I saw mike's video playing with butters. About the Rod of Fire, with the dwarf there is no certain place to get it before the Frost Salamander. It can be achieved from Hellhound drop, but not reliable. You fight lots of them in the Ogre Brothers route, if you take it. 
- With cleric, it's easier to lock the Ogre Brother (1st one) with Hold Person right after he would fall on ground. If he touches it, he will call his brother. Usually i'm spending some Continual Light to get him to almost half life, then switch to full combo-> charge attack -> Hold Person and repeat to finish it off.
- about the LB Crit Glitch: i have a feeling that it works when the 3 hits are a bit "faster". The 3rd hit pratically cancels into LB, and the crit happens. 
- Watching the korean vids, i was looking for strats for cleric, then i noticed that at Ogre Brothers stage, he tries to hit a downed creep, and does a REALLY fast motion of hitting, but doesn't hit because of his positioning. I'm pretty sure that he was using a Turbo Controller for the run.

hugo4fun

2014-10-27 08:45:34 am

The bigger, the better.

Has been a while I don't post here. I've been playing and improving, but I suffer on not having people to discuss about it. My time now is a 30:00 run with Cleric, but still have some deaths going solo.

About my earlier post, discovered that when hitting in a certain position from above, is possible to miss the hitbox of the monster really fast (DAMN YOU DISPLACER BEAST). I was, and still I am, inexperienced with it. But working little by little to get better.
If someone else is still interested in this, I'd love to share the info I have about the game.

hugo4fun

2015-03-11 06:28:42 pm

The bigger, the better.

Yesterday I was finally able do to a deathless run with Cleric. The time is 31:27, above my PB of 28:56 with deaths. First stages are bad, but some good fights and luck (at 28:35 in the video the controller makes the menu weird with me in minimal health, but I still got alive of that).

http://www.twitch.tv/hugo4fun/c/6302100

Now, if this is submitable? I don't know. It's far from perfect, but still the first run I see without deaths with Cleric for SDA. Inputs?

hugo4fun

2015-10-04 11:49:32 am

The bigger, the better.

Just leaving a reminder. I still run the game. My time is better than that last video. If someone wants help or info , feel free to contact me.