Dragon Wars (1989)

Silentsigil

Edit history:

Silentsigil: 2018-04-10 10:55:23 am

Silentsigil: 2018-04-10 10:54:20 am

Silentsigil: 2018-04-10 10:53:58 am

Silentsigil: 2018-04-10 10:53:40 am

Silentsigil: 2018-04-10 05:18:25 am

Silentsigil: 2017-06-28 06:07:41 am

Silentsigil: 2017-06-28 06:07:19 am

Silentsigil: 2017-06-28 06:00:30 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-07 12:49:16 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-07 12:48:44 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-04 08:22:49 pm

Silentsigil: 2016-01-03 09:38:33 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-03 07:14:02 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-03 06:50:43 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-03 06:48:18 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-03 06:46:17 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-03 06:46:03 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-03 06:45:54 am

2016-01-03 06:45:00 am

Major edits:

Leaderboard:
https://www.speedrun.com/Dragon_Wars_1989

Routing notes and run notes:
https://www.speedrun.com/Dragon_Wars_1989/guides

SDA strategy Wiki:
https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Dragon_Wars_(1989) (this is dumb and isn't taking the final parenthesis)

The run on there right now I had the overlay over the splits somehow, like an idiot. It's not a good time, but I uploaded the previous run below in case. This new run/guides has the alterations I found ages ago, also mentioned below. /edits

I remember playing this when I was a kid pretty extensively. I didn't see a listing on here, speedrun.com, and nothing is popping up on google searches for a speedrun of this yet either.

The game is on GOG.com (was on sale last I checked) and can also be played on archive.org here:
https://archive.org/details/msdos_Dragon_Wars_1990

(used to be a mention of save/load glitches)

Thread title:

Lag.Com

2016-01-03 10:02:49 am

sda loyalist

Using that save-load bug would result in the 'setup' games being added to the time, I think. Otherwise it's not a representative any% at all.

Neat to see some more dungeon crawlers getting attention, though Smiley

Silentsigil

Edit history:

Silentsigil: 2016-01-04 08:29:10 pm

Silentsigil: 2016-01-04 12:04:54 pm

Silentsigil: 2016-01-04 11:25:03 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-04 05:26:07 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-04 05:25:27 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-04 05:18:06 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-04 05:16:15 am

2016-01-04 03:17:31 am

This site:

http://www.classicgaming.cc/pc/dragonwars/index.php

has more information and waaaay better maps than Gamefaqs. The manuals that come with the GOG version and this site are immensely helpful in locating useful things.

The google doc linked in the original post has a basic plan sketched out now. Works pretty well up to Mud so far as I've played with it. For some reason I can't activate any throwable items. I don't know what's up with that. No version I have access to has the macro system (alt+F1-F10) working. Having one of these set up for bandaging and dragon stone snorting would cut time slightly.

While the maps on this site are still better than the ones on gamefaqs, I'm seeing some flaws still. Walls that don't exist, chests in the wrong spots, some icons misplaced/duplicated, and things like 1 sq away from where they are supposed to be.

**edit: It's doable. I just finished the first complete test run. The notes in the google docs and the maps on that site will carry you through. The only major issues are the trees on Quag, as for some reason they can still oneshot you with endgame stuff, Namtar's final couple of fights, and Dragon Valley. Dragon valley is really heinous, actually. I'm almost positive you will have to save several times running through it and head directly to the Queen. You can fight pretty much any battle in there except ones with mages, but every forced encounter square has several potential encounters, and they can all maul you.

I guess the next step would be tracking exactly what the steps you take are to everything.

edit edit: I guess dosbox (both gog and the archive use it) isn't acceptable for the site, but the route should still stand if any future people get interested. o/

This site:

http://www.classicgaming.cc/pc/dragonwars/index.php

has more information and waaaay better maps than Gamefaqs. The manuals that come with the GOG version and this site are immensely helpful in locating useful things.

The google doc linked in the original post has a basic plan sketched out now. Works pretty well up to Mud so far as I've played with it. For some reason I can't activate any throwable items. I don't know what's up with that. No version I have access to has the macro system (alt+F1-F10) working. Having one of these set up for bandaging and dragon stone snorting would cut time slightly.

While the maps on this site are still better than the ones on gamefaqs, I'm seeing some flaws still. Walls that don't exist, chests in the wrong spots, some icons misplaced/duplicated, and things like 1 sq away from where they are supposed to be.

**edit: It's doable. I just finished the first complete test run. The notes in the google docs and the maps on that site will carry you through. The only major issues are the trees on Quag, as for some reason they can still oneshot you with endgame stuff, Namtar's final couple of fights, and Dragon Valley. Dragon valley is really heinous, actually. I'm almost positive you will have to save several times running through it and head directly to the Queen. You can fight pretty much any battle in there except ones with mages, but every forced encounter square has several potential encounters, and they can all maul you.

I guess the next step would be tracking exactly what the steps you take are to everything.

edit edit: I guess dosbox (both gog and the archive use it) isn't acceptable for the site, but the route should still stand if any future people get interested. o/

Silentsigil

2016-01-06 08:49:45 pm

Any chance I could get this moved to Casual Speedruns, or should I just make another post? I'm also looking at Castle of the Winds, which is another ancient game that can only can be run through emulation now. I'm unsure what area on here is correct for these games, and I don't want to make extra threads if it isn't necessary.

There's already one for Castle of the Winds in this subfora, but that was prior to x64 systems (can't run it without emulating win 3 through dosbox now).

Lag.Com

2016-01-07 02:06:54 am

sda loyalist

No, DOSBox is officially accepted now, as long as a cycles cap is agreed upon between any runners.

Silentsigil

Edit history:

Silentsigil: 2016-01-07 08:47:14 am

2016-01-07 08:44:44 am

Oh, alright then. I'm still new and I'm seeing different things in different threads, but some of the posts were from years ago.

I just timed a run. I died and reloaded several times, but discovered a few useful things. Whirl Wind is actually incredibly useful if there's a large group at 10' at the start of the fight. Casting this on the Pirates in Long John Ugly's fight first round lets you nuke the Sea Dogs at leisure and heal up each round so noone remains stunned.

Namtar's breath attack form (I believe the 2nd resurrection) breathes about 8 times, then locks into an abuseable pattern. He'll try to close to 20' (and his melee attack is suddenly able to hit at 20' ranges). At 20', he will melee for absurd damage. At 10' he will always Whirl Wind you back to 40'. Cast Zak's Speed from the Black Helmet and Speed wand (grants ~~30 dex) and Advance every round you are at 40'. He will advance 20', placing you both in 10' (normal melee) range. Since you're faster by an absurd amount, attack him with everyone. He'll whirlwind you back to 40'....just repeat this forever.

The time was 1:55:10.99 and I died about 20 times (namtar whipped my butt in his breath form before I just decided to heal through his pattern instead of charging). I got lost three times as I didn't have the Sunken Ruins, Freeport,or Dragon Valley memorized. Also, the character I dumped all my skills into died and I decided to just resurrect him on the way, which added a little time. Fun fact--you can use dead people's abilities/skills/knowledge/lore in a screen that *prompts* you to pick a party member (opening chests etc.), but *not* one that you have to manually initiate (the 'u'se command).

I have a few ideas about speeding it up more, but the biggest thing is keeping everyone in slots 1-4 alive and un-stunned in combat. This was a way longer time than I was expecting.

Oh, alright then. I'm still new and I'm seeing different things in different threads, but some of the posts were from years ago.

I just timed a run. I died and reloaded several times, but discovered a few useful things. Whirl Wind is actually incredibly useful if there's a large group at 10' at the start of the fight. Casting this on the Pirates in Long John Ugly's fight first round lets you nuke the Sea Dogs at leisure and heal up each round so noone remains stunned.

Namtar's breath attack form (I believe the 2nd resurrection) breathes about 8 times, then locks into an abuseable pattern. He'll try to close to 20' (and his melee attack is suddenly able to hit at 20' ranges). At 20', he will melee for absurd damage. At 10' he will always Whirl Wind you back to 40'. Cast Zak's Speed from the Black Helmet and Speed wand (grants ~~30 dex) and Advance every round you are at 40'. He will advance 20', placing you both in 10' (normal melee) range. Since you're faster by an absurd amount, attack him with everyone. He'll whirlwind you back to 40'....just repeat this forever.

The time was 1:55:10.99 and I died about 20 times (namtar whipped my butt in his breath form before I just decided to heal through his pattern instead of charging). I got lost three times as I didn't have the Sunken Ruins, Freeport,or Dragon Valley memorized. Also, the character I dumped all my skills into died and I decided to just resurrect him on the way, which added a little time. Fun fact--you can use dead people's abilities/skills/knowledge/lore in a screen that *prompts* you to pick a party member (opening chests etc.), but *not* one that you have to manually initiate (the 'u'se command).

I have a few ideas about speeding it up more, but the biggest thing is keeping everyone in slots 1-4 alive and un-stunned in combat. This was a way longer time than I was expecting.

Silentsigil

Edit history:

Silentsigil: 2016-01-08 01:05:46 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-08 01:05:30 am

2016-01-08 01:01:47 am

Hey hey. Got a 1:19:38:53. Had to reload due to running into a few crazy random encounters that I hadn't seen before mowing down my party (7 earth men at 10' in Salvation. Really, game?). Moved to a few random spots in Mud Toad, and made a few extra moves elsewhere. Got lost in Nisir (no compass, no light and you have to burrow through several walls. This should be simpler.)

I'm going to throw out that the skillpoint/reset bug would probably take at least half the time of this run, and you'd still need to gather all the items/spells in the route to survive. It's probably not viable.

This run was done on the archive.org site. I can't see any real differences between this and Gog's. This is getting close to a time I like and I'll record something somehow once I get my computer issues fixed up.

I'm going to make a couple changes to the doc and leave this be for now unless there's actually someone interested that wants to look at the game xD

Silentsigil

Edit history:

Silentsigil: 2016-01-12 06:55:23 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-12 06:53:42 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-12 06:53:12 am

2016-01-12 06:46:28 am

Haha, got a recording. I died too much in this and Namtar decided to have two breathing forms, which was awful. I also dispersed healing items in a slightly different way, which kind of worked and kind of didn't. The video cutting out after I (q)uit or end the game to reload is me reloading. I don't know how to do this in a better way, but there is only one save file.

Healing is tricky in difficult combats as you need to have someone heal before your team takes a major hit (so noone wounded 'dies') and after to make sure noone is stunned at the end of the round. I failed this and had to shuffle the party in combat a few times, which slows things down.

Also, my High magic user died in the pirate fight, but I won, so I dragged his corpse to the Well of Souls to revive him. This wouldn't be necessary in a 'good' run, but it was faster than reloading the pirate fight until I won again.

http://www.twitch.tv/silentsigil/v/35029157

1:19:30.29

I also screwed up a split in there near the end, and this isn't the first time that I haven't paid attention to my splits in OBS. They weren't captured correctly. Good luck to anyone who looks for this in the future!

Haha, got a recording. I died too much in this and Namtar decided to have two breathing forms, which was awful. I also dispersed healing items in a slightly different way, which kind of worked and kind of didn't. The video cutting out after I (q)uit or end the game to reload is me reloading. I don't know how to do this in a better way, but there is only one save file.

Healing is tricky in difficult combats as you need to have someone heal before your team takes a major hit (so noone wounded 'dies') and after to make sure noone is stunned at the end of the round. I failed this and had to shuffle the party in combat a few times, which slows things down.

Also, my High magic user died in the pirate fight, but I won, so I dragged his corpse to the Well of Souls to revive him. This wouldn't be necessary in a 'good' run, but it was faster than reloading the pirate fight until I won again.

http://www.twitch.tv/silentsigil/v/35029157

1:19:30.29

I also screwed up a split in there near the end, and this isn't the first time that I haven't paid attention to my splits in OBS. They weren't captured correctly. Good luck to anyone who looks for this in the future!

Lag.Com

2016-01-12 11:47:35 am

sda loyalist

That Long John Ugly fight is fun, huh.

Watched the whole thing, not bad at all! You obviously know all the mistakes already so there isn't much for me to add. I hope you polish it even more and submit. Smiley

Silentsigil

2016-01-12 12:00:23 pm

Thank you! I appreciate the support and encouragement. Outside of the glaring errors of my incompetence, do you have any comments on the routing?

Before I'd be able to submit this I think I would have to figure out a way to restore without having the window die. The archive.org version in a window would work, but I don't know if that would be alright. The site itself is nonprofit, and I'm sure speedrunning for entertainment/the game's sake is probably not wanted in any excessive amount.

I'd also have to understand the recording process better than I do. I know about the forums on here, but I've yet to descend into that dark abyss.

Lag.Com

2016-01-12 12:24:01 pm

sda loyalist

I don't know the game very well at all, so I can't comment on routing much. Your mana item management seems fairly sound; looks like you came close to running out at a couple of points, which is fine as long as you don't. :p

Is there a way to quit out of the game and return to the DOS prompt? I'm sure it would be fine if you're quite clearly typing WARS or whatever.

Silentsigil

Edit history:

Silentsigil: 2016-01-17 10:06:08 am

Silentsigil: 2016-01-12 12:43:40 pm

2016-01-12 12:26:08 pm

I'm running the GOG packaged version....I *might* be able to move it around so I'm mounting c manually in DosBox and try that. I don't know if the gog package allows a secondary execution like that. It might just open the Gog dosbox window and have the same problem.

*edit: works, sort of. Dosbox GOG games keep the game files in a folder inside *their* game folder. Copy/pasting those files to your usual Dosbox "c:" lets you execute the file and have it run without the window closing. I'll try to do this in any future runs.

*edit: Since it's faster to leave the pirate fight by closing the window (no way to quit in combat), this doesn't help. It shuts the entire dosbox thing down. I'll try to find another way.

Silentsigil

Edit history:

Silentsigil: 2017-07-11 07:21:43 pm

Silentsigil: 2016-08-21 03:02:12 am

Silentsigil: 2016-08-21 12:22:50 am

2016-08-20 11:43:57 pm

This probably won't make sense to anyone, but theoretically you don't need the Ankh to get the Dragon Gem from the sickly old dragon under Lansk. Apparently a heal spell will get you the gem without having to visit Mud Toad to pick up an Ankh. Since it's been a minute, I don't know if that will cause a reroute or not.

I'll check this out, and I was playing with the idea of writing out the exact walking steps you need to take, and maybe the commands along the way. If I ever finish that out (and RNG is somehow consistent), then it'll just all be down to luck with pirates and dragons. And Namtar.

*edit* top post update run has the ankh steps removed.

I played around testing the save/load bug and there might be a real advantage to doing it a few times. You can get everyone Druid magic, Ulrik and Valar in your party boosted a bit, and then try to roll out. This would provide safety in the form of tougher, more mp characters. It would provide speed in the form of group damage available for all units. Everyone having Whirlwind means less restarts at pirates, and the frontliners can do things other than stand there like idiots when your mages are burning down a breather at range. It would cost dragonstones, and your time investment for running around early on would need to end up faster than what not doing it would give you... It needs testing. No-reset pirates and a safer Dragon Valley might mean you can combine the Sword upgrade with facing Namtar, and that would let you cut out a little backtracking. Namtar will never be 'safe', so the endgame battle would just be slightly more survivable with the bonus stats.

This probably won't make sense to anyone, but theoretically you don't need the Ankh to get the Dragon Gem from the sickly old dragon under Lansk. Apparently a heal spell will get you the gem without having to visit Mud Toad to pick up an Ankh. Since it's been a minute, I don't know if that will cause a reroute or not.

I'll check this out, and I was playing with the idea of writing out the exact walking steps you need to take, and maybe the commands along the way. If I ever finish that out (and RNG is somehow consistent), then it'll just all be down to luck with pirates and dragons. And Namtar.

*edit* top post update run has the ankh steps removed.

I played around testing the save/load bug and there might be a real advantage to doing it a few times. You can get everyone Druid magic, Ulrik and Valar in your party boosted a bit, and then try to roll out. This would provide safety in the form of tougher, more mp characters. It would provide speed in the form of group damage available for all units. Everyone having Whirlwind means less restarts at pirates, and the frontliners can do things other than stand there like idiots when your mages are burning down a breather at range. It would cost dragonstones, and your time investment for running around early on would need to end up faster than what not doing it would give you... It needs testing. No-reset pirates and a safer Dragon Valley might mean you can combine the Sword upgrade with facing Namtar, and that would let you cut out a little backtracking. Namtar will never be 'safe', so the endgame battle would just be slightly more survivable with the bonus stats.

Silentsigil

2018-07-08 11:42:37 pm

Timed some nonsense tonight.

Ulrik--> Valar, save and quit

Cycle, learn Druid magic on a 2nd party member

Cycle, learn Druid magic on a 3rd, then cycle again or just progress has zero chance of being slower than just forcing an RNG success on a single run. So the stat bug save and quit (to a specific extent) is going to be faster on average, unless you TAS or god luck a run.