Dragon Warrior Run

2010-12-15 11:10:37 am

Quote from Nightmare:

I don't know the technical definition of it, but it's been allowed since the NP days and it wasn't rejected on TG. The gold one, however, could be considered under the score leeching policy and I wouldn't imagine it would be allowed under any circumstance. I could always check into it and TG has been softening rules on RPG runs as of lately (FF6 excluded)

So it's kind of case by case then? I guess that makes sense.

Quote:

I really want to finish the GBC version so we can show this on SDA

I'm not sure if I ever found out, but does the gold bug work on the GBA version? Seriously, it saves a load of time, if that's your primary concern.

Quote:

As for the Clothes, I would technically disagree, since Ghosts do hit a bit hard around Lv. 3-4.

I can't remember if you've followed this or other threads, but I had begun work on a simulator that basically had all of the algorithms of the game with a simple AI for the player. It would run thousands of simulations and give averages based on every combination of equipment. So this isn't my opinion I'm giving (prior to creating the simulator, I thought Clothes were worthless).

Here's a taste of the stats:

Equipment | Average minutes to level 4 (from exiting the castle)

Unequipped | 19.93
Bamboo Pole | 14.8
Bamboo Pole, Leather Armor, Dragon Scale | 13.41
Club | 11.47
Club, Clothes, Dragon Scale | 11.21
Club, Dragon Scale, Leather Armor | 11.46
Leather Armor, Dragon Scale | 18.54

Obviously that's not every combination, but essentially every combo that was sensible. Also, these are just average times. Some had more variation than others. And I have a lot of other statistics that go along with these as well. Like these aren't all uniformly fighting in one zone. The better the equipment, the more it made sense to venture out further.

So the extra 15 seconds there is probably just from traveling to buy the leather armor. Otherwise there is no significant difference. And I think I had previously laid out the math for why the difference is so negligible. If you still don't trust me, I can probably show the math again.

Of course, this is only to level 4. Some early tests I had done suggested that it would start to balance out more around level 6 or 7, but they were too preliminary to say for certain. My guess based on the preliminary data is that the leather armor will be useless since buying it will make it that much longer until you buy the copper sword, which is a huge benefit. At the early stages, weapons are way better than armor, for many reasons.

Quote:

If you can beat it go ahead. My time is limited ATM.

I wish I could have a 6 or 7 hour block to myself, but sadly these days I don't think I'll ever get a chance. At best, I was just hoping to advise people doing the speed runs.

[quote="Nightmare"]I don't know the technical definition of it, but it's been allowed since the NP days and it wasn't rejected on TG.  The gold one, however, could be considered under the score leeching policy and I wouldn't imagine it would be allowed under any circumstance.  I could always check into it and TG has been softening rules on RPG runs as of lately (FF6 excluded)[/quote]

So it's kind of case by case then?  I guess that makes sense.

[quote]I really want to finish the GBC version so we can show this on SDA[/quote]

I'm not sure if I ever found out, but does the gold bug work on the GBA version?  Seriously, it saves a load of time, if that's your primary concern.

[quote]As for the Clothes, I would technically disagree, since Ghosts do hit a bit hard around Lv. 3-4.[/quote]

I can't remember if you've followed this or other threads, but I had begun work on a simulator that basically had all of the algorithms of the game with a simple AI for the player.  It would run thousands of simulations and give averages based on every combination of equipment.  So this isn't my opinion I'm giving (prior to creating the simulator, I thought Clothes were worthless).

Here's a taste of the stats:

Equipment | Average minutes to level 4 (from exiting the castle)

Obviously that's not every combination, but essentially every combo that was sensible.  Also, these are just average times.  Some had more variation than others.  And I have a lot of other statistics that go along with these as well.  Like these aren't all uniformly fighting in one zone.  The better the equipment, the more it made sense to venture out further.

So the extra 15 seconds there is probably just from traveling to buy the leather armor.  Otherwise there is no significant difference.  And I think I had previously laid out the math for why the difference is so negligible.  If you still don't trust me, I can probably show the math again.

Of course, this is only to level 4.  Some early tests I had done suggested that it would start to balance out more around level 6 or 7, but they were too preliminary to say for certain.  My guess based on the preliminary data is that the leather armor will be useless since buying it will make it that much longer until you buy the copper sword, which is a huge benefit.  At the early stages, weapons are way better than armor, for many reasons.

[quote]If you can beat it go ahead.  My time is limited ATM.[/quote]

I wish I could have a 6 or 7 hour block to myself, but sadly these days I don't think I'll ever get a chance.  At best, I was just hoping to advise people doing the speed runs.

Nightmare

Edit history:

Nightmare: 2010-12-15 11:30:52 am

Nightmare: 2010-12-15 11:29:28 am

2010-12-15 11:15:59 am

Quote from Ryan8bit:

So it's kind of case by case then? I guess that makes sense.

Some games, yes. But I have noticed generally 4 underlying rules that apply for TG runs that apply to ANY game:

1. No wall-skipping. Anytime this comes up it's generally banned.
2. No pause/pause boosts. That's why the MM1 Yellow Devil Trick and Blaster Master Grenade Trick are banned.
3. No score leeching when you have unlimited time and lives. More applies with score runs, but the the gold bug would fall in here probably, because you could do up to the Silver Shield with this no problem.
4. No game-breaking glitches (hell, even SRK has a rule on this, this is a big reason why SDA and TG have different runs in general)

And generally, if it was accepted in the old days, it's generally legal at TG. That's why the Dragon Scale is allowed, and Turtle on a Step is not. The only trick that I know of that was legal in the old days that is not now is the Grenade Trick in Blaster Master (I don't agree with it, but it's a clear and dry rule with pausing tricks)

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, I think the Fighter's Ring is permanently in effect too when used and can be sold like the Dragon Scale.

Quote from Ryan8bit:

I wish I could have a 6 or 7 hour block to myself, but sadly these days I don't think I'll ever get a chance. At best, I was just hoping to advise people doing the speed runs.

My same problem too. Join the club. I at the most get 4 hours free at a time, and that's only because I'm out of work ATM.

Else I would've got the run to the point where I stamped out the Staff of Rain mistake and "ALL YOUR RED DRAGONS ARE BELONG TO US!"

Thanks for the TAS info though.

-James

[quote="Ryan8bit"]

So it's kind of case by case then?  I guess that makes sense.
[/quote]

Some games, yes.  But I have noticed generally 4 underlying rules that apply for TG runs that apply to ANY game:

1.  No wall-skipping.  Anytime this comes up it's generally banned.
2.  No pause/pause boosts.  That's why the MM1 Yellow Devil Trick and Blaster Master Grenade Trick are banned.
3.  No score leeching when you have unlimited time and lives.  More applies with score runs, but the the gold bug would fall in here probably, because you could do up to the Silver Shield with this no problem.
4.  No game-breaking glitches (hell, even SRK has a rule on this, this is a big reason why SDA and TG have different runs in general)

And generally, if it was accepted in the old days, it's generally legal at TG.  That's why the Dragon Scale is allowed, and Turtle on a Step is not.  The only trick that I know of that was legal in the old days that is not now is the Grenade Trick in Blaster Master (I don't agree with it, but it's a clear and dry rule with pausing tricks)

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, I think the Fighter's Ring is permanently in effect too when used and can be sold like the Dragon Scale.

[quote="Ryan8bit"]

I wish I could have a 6 or 7 hour block to myself, but sadly these days I don't think I'll ever get a chance.  At best, I was just hoping to advise people doing the speed runs.[/quote]

My same problem too.  Join the club.  I at the most get 4 hours free at a time, and that's only because I'm out of work ATM.

Else I would've got the run to the point where I stamped out the Staff of Rain mistake and "ALL YOUR RED DRAGONS ARE BELONG TO US!"

Thanks for the TAS info though.

-James

Ryan8bit

2010-12-15 11:41:27 am

Quote from Nightmare:

BTW, if I'm not mistaken, I think the Fighter's Ring is permanently in effect too when used and can be sold like the Dragon Scale.

Technically, yes. But that effect is really only just changing what some NPC says. It has no meaningful use.

Nightmare

Edit history:

Nightmare: 2010-12-15 12:41:59 pm

2010-12-15 12:41:33 pm

If you have that TAS simulator still, can you take some runs to Lv. 6? That's ABOUT where I hit Kol to start the next quote on quote segment, I really need to know if the Leather Armor makes a difference when you get THAT far (and yes, Copper Sword is necessary before you fight those enemies)

It'd be appreciated.

Combinations I'd appreciate:

Club/Leather Armor/Dragon Scale
Club/Clothes/Dragon Scale/Small Shield
Copper Sword/Clothes/Dragon Scale
Copper Sword/Clothes/Dragon Scale/Small Shield

And if Scorpions kick your ass let me know.

-James

Ryan8bit

2010-12-15 01:04:51 pm

I actually did runs up to about level 8 or 9, but the data was just very short term, and that's when I stopped working on the simulator to focus on some other things. I plan on revisiting it, but I have to finish up that formulas FAQ first, which I'm thinking will be done in the spring. At that point, I'll probably be completely rewriting the simulator to make it more efficient. So it's going to be a while before I do any work with it.

Nightmare

2010-12-15 01:13:46 pm

Quote from Ryan8bit:

I actually did runs up to about level 8 or 9, but the data was just very short term, and that's when I stopped working on the simulator to focus on some other things. I plan on revisiting it, but I have to finish up that formulas FAQ first, which I'm thinking will be done in the spring. At that point, I'll probably be completely rewriting the simulator to make it more efficient. So it's going to be a while before I do any work with it.

I can wait, take your time. I've got more pressing projects, school, and other things going ATM. I appreciate the help.

-James

Nightmare

Edit history:

Nightmare: 2010-12-18 08:37:35 am

2010-12-18 08:37:21 am

UGH, was doing a practice stream last night, and my DW run took 3 hours on SNES. DISGUSTING!

Is there any way we can find out the Japanese routes so I can shorten this? It's important for my SNES and GBC runs.

-James

ShinerCCC

2010-12-24 12:06:36 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

I did a DW1 single segment test run on NES today and got a dismal time of 6 hours 57 minutes. Took 4 attempts at the Dragonlord. Here's a summary of all the mistakes I made, as well as other highlights:
- grinding to level 4 at the start makes a LOT of sense. This test run is the only run I did this morning and it's all that was needed because it's so much easier this way. It also means your first kill in Rimuldar can be whatever you want, instead of being forced to wait for a Wolf or Skeleton.
- pulled 130 gold from the potential Death Necklace chest. Pulled 5350 gold from infinite chest, however I forgot about the 30 kickback from upgrading from Club, so 5325 is all you need.
- died while grinding in Rimuldar at level 4 twice. One was from me arrogantly picking a fight with a Warlock, who proceeded to sleeplock and Hurt me to death. Lost about 180 gold in total. Fought 3 Goldmans but that wasn't enough to compensate so I did Garin's Tomb first. Couldn't remember how to navigate Garin's Tomb in the dark so I used the Torch I found in the chest. Still came up short on cash so I fought a Wyvern by Hauksness, as well as every critter on the way.
- Golem surprised me, so I ran and tried again. Luckily I beat him. Then, after I got the Token, I went and cashed in my Silver Harp...halfway there I realized what I was doing, said "oops" and cashed it in anyway.
- had to hunt for the Token a bit again, I keep forgetting where it is. Also had to toss one of my Fairy Waters when I got there.
- I beat Axe Knight first try!
- ...but I took a wrong turn while raiding for Erdrick's Sword and died once.
- Once I had the sword, I turned on Dragon Quest IX and started doing mindless grinding on shivery shrubberies because I was getting bored. I guess this made everything from there on a little slower =P
- Every level gained led to me scouting other grinding strategies a little bit because I haven't touched this game in so long. Untold minutes lost there.
- I fought about 5 Metal Slimes and only managed to kill one by sniping it with an Excellent move. For future runners...don't even go down there.
- Deaths while grinding in the desert: one to a Demon Knight at level 15 or 16 (I wasn't looking, haha oops), getting shot in the back by a Wizard while exploring Hauksness, fighting a Starwyvern to the death (legit). Trying to remember if a Magiwyvern killed me or not. Leveled up to 19, obviously.
- took 4 tries to kill the Dragonlord. The first attempt saw a legit full-to-death by an Armored Knight. The second was me walking up to the Dragonlord, saw I had 115 HP and checked my max, "oh look I have 130", then turned and headed for the grass patch instead of using Herbs. A Red Dragon saw to it that I saw my idiocy. Third attempt, I got confused/distracted while fighting the big Dragonlord and hit Fight mindlessly when I had 29 HP left. That should have finished the run at about 6:50:xx. 6:57 was my confirmed finish time. Lost a lot of time due to not having Fairy Water on those later attempts, too. I never saw a third Stoneman so I don't need all 6 spare MP for Sleep, so I'll remember to go for Repel if it takes multiple attempts next time.

Tips for next time:
- use Return to leave the castle on respawn more often
- don't be flashy when it comes to grinding, be boring: speedrunning this game is not about optimum route but best average route.
- whatever you do for grinding, stay on sand

Grinding patterns, as a reminder to myself:
1, 2: don't fight Drakees. possible stupid route: only fight Red Slimes as a means of getting a third Herb before leaving
3: fight Drakees. actually, SS may want to fight Drakees at level 2 so as to reach level 3 faster, I had about 20 gold to spare
---
4-6: don't fight Warlocks, use Hurt on Metal Scorpions
7-9: Hurt is no longer worthwhile on Metal Scorpions.
I used Sleep in Wolf fights almost always, but I think we discovered earlier on in the thread that that's usually a losing gamble...will have to double check that
10-12: go kill Wolflords
kill Wraiths, they usually die quickly and Heal only gives them a single hit of advantage (which isn't good for them because their damage is so low), this is especially true at levels 11 and 12 where your Power starts shooting up
maybe kill a few Goldmans if you're low on money. They still give 6 exp; all experience helps because the goal of the run is to reach 22000 exp
When you're just about out of MP, you can use the tree notch south of Rimuldar to sneak in one more Wolflord fight on the way home.
And no, you still can't fight Warlocks.
---
13: kill everything in Garin's Tomb except Wraith Knights
When you get to the desert, stick to the north strip? I didn't test the south strip.
Try to save MP for level 17.
14: south strip. do donuts around Hauksness if you need to heal.
Wizards are easy to kill with Stopspell but I don't think it's worth going for.
15: Big, big defense increase. Now you can fight Demon Knights, and you should; they die in two hits and give a sizeable 37 exp, however the dodge chance can ruin the otherwise awesome rate of exp. Use Repel if serious healing is needed.
Fight to the death. Now that you have Repel, if you die you get fully healed and can cast Return then Repel to get back out to the desert in less than a minute.
16: sometimes you can one-shot north strip enemies. But south strip is still more worthwhile. If you hit full health step into Hauksness and kill a Wizard (skip Stopspell) or Green Dragon.
17: Hauksness is open season. Kill everything. Starwyverns can spawn with between 48-65 HP IIRC, after a Healmore they always have 65 HP. Attack once first, then decide to go for Stopspell or the killing blow.
Don't bother casting Stopspell on Wizards any more, they die in two hits.
Strategy I didn't consider: Green Dragons are the only enemy here not considered "weak". Cast Repel and hunt Green Dragons exclusively?
18: Because you can do up to 42 damage, Starwyverns might use Healmore after the first hit. Annoying, but not much you can do about it.

I did a DW1 single segment test run on NES today and got a dismal time of 6 hours 57 minutes. Took 4 attempts at the Dragonlord. Here's a summary of all the mistakes I made, as well as other highlights:
- grinding to level 4 at the start makes a LOT of sense. This test run is the only run I did this morning and it's all that was needed because it's so much easier this way. It also means your first kill in Rimuldar can be whatever you want, instead of being forced to wait for a Wolf or Skeleton.
- pulled 130 gold from the potential Death Necklace chest. Pulled 5350 gold from infinite chest, however I forgot about the 30 kickback from upgrading from Club, so 5325 is all you need.
- died while grinding in Rimuldar at level 4 twice. One was from me arrogantly picking a fight with a Warlock, who proceeded to sleeplock and Hurt me to death. Lost about 180 gold in total. Fought 3 Goldmans but that wasn't enough to compensate so I did Garin's Tomb first. Couldn't remember how to navigate Garin's Tomb in the dark so I used the Torch I found in the chest. Still came up short on cash so I fought a Wyvern by Hauksness, as well as every critter on the way.
- Golem surprised me, so I ran and tried again. Luckily I beat him. Then, after I got the Token, I went and cashed in my Silver Harp...halfway there I realized what I was doing, said "oops" and cashed it in anyway.
- had to hunt for the Token a bit again, I keep forgetting where it is. Also had to toss one of my Fairy Waters when I got there.
- I beat Axe Knight first try!
- ...but I took a wrong turn while raiding for Erdrick's Sword and died once.
- Once I had the sword, I turned on Dragon Quest IX and started doing mindless grinding on shivery shrubberies because I was getting bored. I guess this made everything from there on a little slower =P
- Every level gained led to me scouting other grinding strategies a little bit because I haven't touched this game in so long. Untold minutes lost there.
- I fought about 5 Metal Slimes and only managed to kill one by sniping it with an Excellent move. For future runners...don't even go down there.
- Deaths while grinding in the desert: one to a Demon Knight at level 15 or 16 (I wasn't looking, haha oops), getting shot in the back by a Wizard while exploring Hauksness, fighting a Starwyvern to the death (legit). Trying to remember if a Magiwyvern killed me or not. Leveled up to 19, obviously.
- took 4 tries to kill the Dragonlord. The first attempt saw a legit full-to-death by an Armored Knight. The second was me walking up to the Dragonlord, saw I had 115 HP and checked my max, "oh look I have 130", then turned and headed for the grass patch instead of using Herbs. A Red Dragon saw to it that I saw my idiocy. Third attempt, I got confused/distracted while fighting the big Dragonlord and hit Fight mindlessly when I had 29 HP left. That should have finished the run at about 6:50:xx. 6:57 was my confirmed finish time. Lost  a lot of time due to not having Fairy Water on those later attempts, too. I never saw a third Stoneman so I don't need all 6 spare MP for Sleep, so I'll remember to go for Repel if it takes multiple attempts next time.

Tips for next time:
- use Return to leave the castle on respawn more often
- don't be flashy when it comes to grinding, be boring: speedrunning this game is not about optimum route but best average route. 
- whatever you do for grinding, stay on sand

Grinding patterns, as a reminder to myself:
1, 2: don't fight Drakees. possible stupid route: only fight Red Slimes as a means of getting a third Herb before leaving
3: fight Drakees. actually, SS may want to fight Drakees at level 2 so as to reach level 3 faster, I had about 20 gold to spare
---
4-6: don't fight Warlocks, use Hurt on Metal Scorpions
7-9: Hurt is no longer worthwhile on Metal Scorpions.
I used Sleep in Wolf fights almost always, but I think we discovered earlier on in the thread that that's usually a losing gamble...will have to double check that
10-12: go kill Wolflords
kill Wraiths, they usually die quickly and Heal only gives them a single hit of advantage (which isn't good for them because their damage is so low), this is especially true at levels 11 and 12 where your Power starts shooting up
maybe kill a few Goldmans if you're low on money. They still give 6 exp; all experience helps because the goal of the run is to reach 22000 exp
When you're just about out of MP, you can use the tree notch south of Rimuldar to sneak in one more Wolflord fight on the way home.
And no, you still can't fight Warlocks.
---
13: kill everything in Garin's Tomb except Wraith Knights
When you get to the desert, stick to the north strip? I didn't test the south strip.
Try to save MP for level 17.
14: south strip. do donuts around Hauksness if you need to heal.
Wizards are easy to kill with Stopspell but I don't think it's worth going for.
15: Big, big defense increase. Now you can fight Demon Knights, and you should; they die in two hits and give a sizeable 37 exp, however the dodge chance can ruin the otherwise awesome rate of exp. Use Repel if serious healing is needed.
Fight to the death. Now that you have Repel, if you die you get fully healed and can cast Return then Repel to get back out to the desert in less than a minute.
16: sometimes you can one-shot north strip enemies. But south strip is still more worthwhile. If you hit full health step into Hauksness and kill a Wizard (skip Stopspell) or Green Dragon.
17: Hauksness is open season. Kill everything. Starwyverns can spawn with between 48-65 HP IIRC, after a Healmore they always have 65 HP. Attack once first, then decide to go for Stopspell or the killing blow.
Don't bother casting Stopspell on Wizards any more, they die in two hits.
Strategy I didn't consider: Green Dragons are the only enemy here not considered "weak". Cast Repel and hunt Green Dragons exclusively?
18: Because you can do up to 42 damage, Starwyverns might use Healmore after the first hit. Annoying, but not much you can do about it.

Nightmare

Edit history:

Nightmare: 2010-12-25 07:58:38 am

2010-12-25 07:52:07 am

ALL YOUR RED DRAGONS ARE BELONG TO US! Sad

Anyway, what was your time up to your second Dragonlord attempt so we know realistically where you were?

The time isn't that great though honestly. My route with no glitches is right around 7 hours if I didn't make the Staff of Rain mistake (which cost me 10:00, Red Dragon was the other 7:00). The Gold Glitch saves what, 15-20 minutes, providing you don't pull a Staff of Rain in the Dragonlord's Castle? If I pushed my route I could probably hit sub-7 hours myself, and that's without the Gold Glitch.

Good job completing it though. It's tough to do that in itself.

Try for 6:45 before submitting at least Shiner.

Just sad that the Gold Glitch doesn't save an incredible amount of time. But the Full Plate Armor early to kill Wolves does help immensely.

My run is up on my YouTube channel, if you want to compare it side by side.

-James

Ryan8bit

2010-12-27 08:35:46 am

I'm not sure on exact times, but my preliminary tests said that the gold bug would save quite a hefty amount of time. That Shiner had a bad practice run doesn't really reflect much on its worthiness or lack thereof.

Also, Shiner, repel will not work inside Hauksness.

Nightmare

2010-12-27 03:55:35 pm

Quote from Ryan8bit:

I'm not sure on exact times, but my preliminary tests said that the gold bug would save quite a hefty amount of time. That Shiner had a bad practice run doesn't really reflect much on its worthiness or lack thereof.

Also, Shiner, repel will not work inside Hauksness.

Doesn't work inside of caves or Dragonlord's Castle though either.

-James

ShinerCCC

2010-12-27 06:41:22 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

I'm not satisfied with this practice run at all. I've been practicing all the games I want to speedrun while I'm on holiday here and I find I need to practice all of them on emulator (for spot practice) instead of console...except for this one. Only problem is, it takes hours to even "practice" this game. I find I lapse into a kind of trance when I'm about one hour into the run, so I'll make two adventure logs, one at level 4, the other at level 13 (with all gear acquired). That way, if I don't have 7 hours to set aside, I can just practice for 2 hours. I need to make sure I have optimal leveling strategies before doing the real run.

I'm going to contact another of my friends who has a capture setup (a Gamebridge) and some other friends so I can get this run set up and done with as soon as I get back. Audio commentary will be recorded live. Drinking may or may not be involved. I'm not sure if I can run this game while drunk but it might be a bad idea. It's not like I'm concentrating on things super hard while running, but being drunk just might be too much to cope with while chatting with my friends =P

Suggest some rules to make a Dragon Warrior speedrun into a drinking game. Drink whenever I acquire items (Club, 2 Herb, Dragon Scale right at the start? 6 Herbs every time the Axe Knight kills me?), or take 3 drinks whenever I level up?

I'm not satisfied with this practice run at all. I've been practicing all the games I want to speedrun while I'm on holiday here and I find I need to practice all of them on emulator (for spot practice) instead of console...except for this one. Only problem is, it takes hours to even "practice" this game. I find I lapse into a kind of trance when I'm about one hour into the run, so I'll make two adventure logs, one at level 4, the other at level 13 (with all gear acquired). That way, if I don't have 7 hours to set aside, I can just practice for 2 hours. I need to make sure I have optimal leveling strategies before doing the real run.

I'm going to contact another of my friends who has a capture setup (a Gamebridge) and some other friends so I can get this run set up and done with as soon as I get back. Audio commentary will be recorded live. Drinking may or may not be involved. I'm not sure if I can run this game while drunk but it might be a bad idea. It's not like I'm concentrating on things super hard while running, but being drunk just might be too much to cope with while chatting with my friends =P

Suggest some rules to make a Dragon Warrior speedrun into a drinking game. Drink whenever I acquire items (Club, 2 Herb, Dragon Scale right at the start? 6 Herbs every time the Axe Knight kills me?), or take 3 drinks whenever I level up?

Nightmare

2010-12-27 07:34:34 pm

Quote from ShinerCCC:

I'm not satisfied with this practice run at all. I've been practicing all the games I want to speedrun while I'm on holiday here and I find I need to practice all of them on emulator (for spot practice) instead of console...except for this one. Only problem is, it takes hours to even "practice" this game. I find I lapse into a kind of trance when I'm about one hour into the run, so I'll make two adventure logs, one at level 4, the other at level 13 (with all gear acquired). That way, if I don't have 7 hours to set aside, I can just practice for 2 hours. I need to make sure I have optimal leveling strategies before doing the real run.

I'm going to contact another of my friends who has a capture setup (a Gamebridge) and some other friends so I can get this run set up and done with as soon as I get back. Audio commentary will be recorded live. Drinking may or may not be involved. I'm not sure if I can run this game while drunk but it might be a bad idea. It's not like I'm concentrating on things super hard while running, but being drunk just might be too much to cope with while chatting with my friends =P

Suggest some rules to make a Dragon Warrior speedrun into a drinking game. Drink whenever I acquire items (Club, 2 Herb, Dragon Scale right at the start? 6 Herbs every time the Axe Knight kills me?), or take 3 drinks whenever I level up?

That's the best idea. Split it into parts and practice it from that point. That's what I did for the TG run.

I sympathize Shiner. That's why I don't want to redo it. ;-P

-James

[quote="ShinerCCC"]I'm not satisfied with this practice run at all. I've been practicing all the games I want to speedrun while I'm on holiday here and I find I need to practice all of them on emulator (for spot practice) instead of console...except for this one. Only problem is, it takes hours to even "practice" this game. I find I lapse into a kind of trance when I'm about one hour into the run, so I'll make two adventure logs, one at level 4, the other at level 13 (with all gear acquired). That way, if I don't have 7 hours to set aside, I can just practice for 2 hours. I need to make sure I have optimal leveling strategies before doing the real run.

I'm going to contact another of my friends who has a capture setup (a Gamebridge) and some other friends so I can get this run set up and done with as soon as I get back. Audio commentary will be recorded live. Drinking may or may not be involved. I'm not sure if I can run this game while drunk but it might be a bad idea. It's not like I'm concentrating on things super hard while running, but being drunk just might be too much to cope with while chatting with my friends =P

Suggest some rules to make a Dragon Warrior speedrun into a drinking game. Drink whenever I acquire items (Club, 2 Herb, Dragon Scale right at the start? 6 Herbs every time the Axe Knight kills me?), or take 3 drinks whenever I level up?[/quote]

That's the best idea.  Split it into parts and practice it from that point.  That's what I did for the TG run.

I sympathize Shiner.  That's why I don't want to redo it.  ;-P

-James

ShinerCCC

Edit history:

ShinerCCC: 2010-12-28 07:12:15 pm

2010-12-28 04:57:54 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Darkwing Duck: are you going to be at the SDA marathon or at MAGfest? If so, do you plan on streaming a run of this game for me to synchronize with? I want to time a capture attempt at this run for the same time if so. Otherwise, I'll do one the moment I get back to Collegeville. I just need to make arrangements with my friend.

I made the two adventure logs today (well, I actually have to go get Erdrick's Sword on the level 13 one first. I wanted to see how feasible it was to rescue Gwaelin without it at that level, so I could do all my grinding in "Gwaelin in my arms" mode. It's possible but it might take all 6 Herbs). While doing all my grinding in Rimuldar I got out a little face clock-style watch and tried to time some things.

- A full round of combat (your attack, enemy's attack) takes about 5 seconds. This will vary depending on the enemy's name, of course. Metal Scorpion is 5.5 to 6 seconds.
- If they dodge, that makes for about a 4 second round, as consolation.
- If the enemy is asleep, it's about 4 seconds. But if they wake up, there's the extra line of text telling you they wake up, not sure if that adds a whole second or not.
- It takes ~19 seconds to go from the sandbar to the inn in Rimuldar and back.
- It takes ~39 seconds to go from the Wolflord hills (closest point) to Rimuldar and back. This was harder to measure because I would keep getting in fights on the way and have to mentally pause timing.
- Because it takes an extra 4000 gold to buy Magic Armor instead of Full Plate, and the infinite treasure chest gives gold at a rate of about 250 gold per minute, that means you would need to save 16 minutes = 960 seconds in inn trips for it to be fully worthwhile. That means you'd need a solution set for 19x + 39y >= 960 to see what a ridiculous amount of trips you'd need to exclude for it to be worthwhile. Once you hit level 11, I find you only need one inn trip halfway between each levelup, because HEAL can go a long, long way.
- It takes either 2 or 3 seconds to cast HEAL on the map.
- I don't know how long it takes for an enemy to attempt casting STOPSPELL on you, or how long things take while you're asleep.

So this got me thinking about a tactic I tried: at levels 4 and 5 I used HURT as my primary means of attacking. (I think I posted about this a long time ago but I'm too lazy to check) If I can shave off 4 rounds of combat in this manner, then after the impending early stay at the inn I have a profit of a few seconds. This also skips over the time it takes to cast HEAL and stay out in the wilderness longer. This has an extra gold cost associated with it, however, and if it requires Goldman fighting then that's a loss to consider. But the idea is to use my gold as a resource to boost my leveling speed. Levels 4, 5 and 6 are really awkward because your damage is still really low.

At level 7 I've found a wonderful new strategy. I recalled Warlocks are quite vulnerable to SLEEP so instead of running from them and waiting for another fight for about 15 seconds, I just open up with SLEEP until it works, then fight until they're dead. If they wake up after 1 turn I don't bother to re-cast it, I just keep fighting, they almost always die in 3 hits. If I have < 2 MP left then I just run from Warlocks. Ryan, can you test this strategy in the simulator from levels 7 through 9 versus just running from all Warlocks at those levels?

EDIT: I need something else tested too. Compare leveling from 13 to 14 using either Goldman/Wraith/Wolflord/Wyvern/Wyvern zone or Goldman/Wraith/Wolflord/Wolflord/Metal Scorpion zone. Both are right by Hauksness. Note how I lined them up; only two enemies differ. Because Metal Scorpion almost always dies in one round and Wolflord will sometimes die in 1 round, I think that although the exp/round rates are nearly the same (12/12 versus 10/14), I think that because it usually takes less than 5 seconds to get into a fight that the latter area will be slightly faster.

I also need to re-evaluate some of my shopping. I realized I was stupid for buying 2 keys for Wings, thinking it would lead to a faster escape...even if you hit level 13 with no MP left, it's definitely faster to run back to the inn, use it, then cast RETURN. I think I should also stick to just 5 keys and skip a round of Fairy Water purchases...they're only good for trips to Hauksness or Garinham, after that Repel will suffice. Once you're on Rimuldar don't bother using one, you should fight things you encounter on the way. Even with Erdrick's Sword they still die in 2 hits later on, and it's the same kinds of enemies you'll be fighting once you have it. Realizing that a round of combat takes 5 seconds has me really considering exp/round instead of exp/min. For instance, Metal Scorpions sometimes die in 1 hit at level 12 or 13, giving you 14 exp/round. Even Wolflords, which always die in 2 hits, only give 10 exp/round. An area of all Metal Scorpions would be the ideal area for those levels. It might not always hold true though. As an example, Wizards are the highest exp/round, because they usually die in 2 hits at higher levels, and that's 25 exp/round, but they can hit for a good chunk of damage. Plus other enemies in the area are dangerous and waste time.

Speedrunning this game is so weird. You don't want the optimal fastest route, but the average fastest route...

EDIT: I think I need to read the whole thread again, because I'm trying to figure out why Z is better than L for single segment. L has better short term benefits and performs worse against the Dragonlord, but because single segment aims for level 19 instead of 18 I think that drawback is mitigated. I'm sick of not being able to run away from things, and taking forever to get from level 12 to level 13.

Darkwing Duck: are you going to be at the SDA marathon or at MAGfest? If so, do you plan on streaming a run of this game for me to synchronize with? I want to time a capture attempt at this run for the same time if so. Otherwise, I'll do one the moment I get back to Collegeville. I just need to make arrangements with my friend.

I made the two adventure logs today (well, I actually have to go get Erdrick's Sword on the level 13 one first. I wanted to see how feasible it was to rescue Gwaelin without it at that level, so I could do all my grinding in "Gwaelin in my arms" mode. It's possible but it might take all 6 Herbs). While doing all my grinding in Rimuldar I got out a little face clock-style watch and tried to time some things.

- A full round of combat (your attack, enemy's attack) takes about 5 seconds. This will vary depending on the enemy's name, of course. Metal Scorpion is 5.5 to 6 seconds.
- If they dodge, that makes for about a 4 second round, as consolation.
- If the enemy is asleep, it's about 4 seconds. But if they wake up, there's the extra line of text telling you they wake up, not sure if that adds a whole second or not.
- It takes ~19 seconds to go from the sandbar to the inn in Rimuldar and back.
- It takes ~39 seconds to go from the Wolflord hills (closest point) to Rimuldar and back. This was harder to measure because I would keep getting in fights on the way and have to mentally pause timing.
- Because it takes an extra 4000 gold to buy Magic Armor instead of Full Plate, and the infinite treasure chest gives gold at a rate of about 250 gold per minute, that means you would need to save 16 minutes = 960 seconds in inn trips for it to be fully worthwhile. That means you'd need a solution set for 19x + 39y >= 960 to see what a ridiculous amount of trips you'd need to exclude for it to be worthwhile. Once you hit level 11, I find you only need one inn trip halfway between each levelup, because HEAL can go a long, long way.
- It takes either 2 or 3 seconds to cast HEAL on the map.
- I don't know how long it takes for an enemy to attempt casting STOPSPELL on you, or how long things take while you're asleep.

So this got me thinking about a tactic I tried: at levels 4 and 5 I used HURT as my primary means of attacking. (I think I posted about this a long time ago but I'm too lazy to check) If I can shave off 4 rounds of combat in this manner, then after the impending early stay at the inn I have a profit of a few seconds. This also skips over the time it takes to cast HEAL and stay out in the wilderness longer. This has an extra gold cost associated with it, however, and if it requires Goldman fighting then that's a loss to consider. But the idea is to use my gold as a resource to boost my leveling speed. Levels 4, 5 and 6 are really awkward because your damage is still really low.

At level 7 I've found a wonderful new strategy. I recalled Warlocks are quite vulnerable to SLEEP so instead of running from them and waiting for another fight for about 15 seconds, I just open up with SLEEP until it works, then fight until they're dead. If they wake up after 1 turn I don't bother to re-cast it, I just keep fighting, they almost always die in 3 hits. If I have < 2 MP left then I just run from Warlocks. Ryan, can you test this strategy in the simulator from levels 7 through 9 versus just running from all Warlocks at those levels?

EDIT: I need something else tested too. Compare leveling from 13 to 14 using either Goldman/Wraith/Wolflord/Wyvern/Wyvern zone or Goldman/Wraith/Wolflord/Wolflord/Metal Scorpion zone. Both are right by Hauksness. Note how I lined them up; only two enemies differ. Because Metal Scorpion almost always dies in one round and Wolflord will sometimes die in 1 round, I think that although the exp/round rates are nearly the same (12/12 versus 10/14), I think that because it usually takes less than 5 seconds to get into a fight that the latter area will be slightly faster.

I also need to re-evaluate some of my shopping. I realized I was stupid for buying 2 keys for Wings, thinking it would lead to a faster escape...even if you hit level 13 with no MP left, it's definitely faster to run back to the inn, use it, then cast RETURN. I think I should also stick to just 5 keys and skip a round of Fairy Water purchases...they're only good for trips to Hauksness or Garinham, after that Repel will suffice. Once you're on Rimuldar don't bother using one, you should fight things you encounter on the way. Even with Erdrick's Sword they still die in 2 hits later on, and it's the same kinds of enemies you'll be fighting once you have it. Realizing that a round of combat takes 5 seconds has me really considering exp/round instead of exp/min. For instance, Metal Scorpions sometimes die in 1 hit at level 12 or 13, giving you 14 exp/round. Even Wolflords, which always die in 2 hits, only give 10 exp/round. An area of all Metal Scorpions would be the ideal area for those levels. It might not always hold true though. As an example, Wizards are the highest exp/round, because they usually die in 2 hits at higher levels, and that's 25 exp/round, but they can hit for a good chunk of damage. Plus other enemies in the area are dangerous and waste time.

Speedrunning this game is so weird. You don't want the optimal fastest route, but the average fastest route...

EDIT: I think I need to read the whole thread again, because I'm trying to figure out why Z is better than L for single segment. L has better short term benefits and performs worse against the Dragonlord, but because single segment aims for level 19 instead of 18 I think that drawback is mitigated. I'm sick of not being able to run away from things, and taking forever to get from level 12 to level 13.

Darkwing Duck

2010-12-28 05:51:33 pm

Highly Evolved

No, I will not be at the marathon.

Starting to come around to my side in terms of how to speedrun this game. Kind of necessary given the length of the run. I still prefer exp/min, though. Getting more experience per round of battle is pointless if it's taking you longer to do it. This is why I generally like being outside of Hauksness rather than in it. In any case, exp/round should be fairly congruent with exp/min.

Starwyverns may kill your exp/round though, making Hauksness even more undesirable.

Nightmare

2010-12-28 07:23:45 pm

Quote from ShinerCCC:

Darkwing Duck: are you going to be at the SDA marathon or at MAGfest? If so, do you plan on streaming a run of this game for me to synchronize with? I want to time a capture attempt at this run for the same time if so. Otherwise, I'll do one the moment I get back to Collegeville. I just need to make arrangements with my friend.

I made the two adventure logs today (well, I actually have to go get Erdrick's Sword on the level 13 one first. I wanted to see how feasible it was to rescue Gwaelin without it at that level, so I could do all my grinding in "Gwaelin in my arms" mode. It's possible but it might take all 6 Herbs). While doing all my grinding in Rimuldar I got out a little face clock-style watch and tried to time some things.

- A full round of combat (your attack, enemy's attack) takes about 5 seconds. This will vary depending on the enemy's name, of course. Metal Scorpion is 5.5 to 6 seconds.
- If they dodge, that makes for about a 4 second round, as consolation.
- If the enemy is asleep, it's about 4 seconds. But if they wake up, there's the extra line of text telling you they wake up, not sure if that adds a whole second or not.
- It takes ~19 seconds to go from the sandbar to the inn in Rimuldar and back.
- It takes ~39 seconds to go from the Wolflord hills (closest point) to Rimuldar and back. This was harder to measure because I would keep getting in fights on the way and have to mentally pause timing.
- Because it takes an extra 4000 gold to buy Magic Armor instead of Full Plate, and the infinite treasure chest gives gold at a rate of about 250 gold per minute, that means you would need to save 16 minutes = 960 seconds in inn trips for it to be fully worthwhile. That means you'd need a solution set for 19x + 39y >= 960 to see what a ridiculous amount of trips you'd need to exclude for it to be worthwhile. Once you hit level 11, I find you only need one inn trip halfway between each levelup, because HEAL can go a long, long way.
- It takes either 2 or 3 seconds to cast HEAL on the map.
- I don't know how long it takes for an enemy to attempt casting STOPSPELL on you, or how long things take while you're asleep.

So this got me thinking about a tactic I tried: at levels 4 and 5 I used HURT as my primary means of attacking. (I think I posted about this a long time ago but I'm too lazy to check) If I can shave off 4 rounds of combat in this manner, then after the impending early stay at the inn I have a profit of a few seconds. This also skips over the time it takes to cast HEAL and stay out in the wilderness longer. This has an extra gold cost associated with it, however, and if it requires Goldman fighting then that's a loss to consider. But the idea is to use my gold as a resource to boost my leveling speed. Levels 4, 5 and 6 are really awkward because your damage is still really low.

At level 7 I've found a wonderful new strategy. I recalled Warlocks are quite vulnerable to SLEEP so instead of running from them and waiting for another fight for about 15 seconds, I just open up with SLEEP until it works, then fight until they're dead. If they wake up after 1 turn I don't bother to re-cast it, I just keep fighting, they almost always die in 3 hits. If I have < 2 MP left then I just run from Warlocks. Ryan, can you test this strategy in the simulator from levels 7 through 9 versus just running from all Warlocks at those levels?

EDIT: I need something else tested too. Compare leveling from 13 to 14 using either Goldman/Wraith/Wolflord/Wyvern/Wyvern zone or Goldman/Wraith/Wolflord/Wolflord/Metal Scorpion zone. Both are right by Hauksness. Note how I lined them up; only two enemies differ. Because Metal Scorpion almost always dies in one round and Wolflord will sometimes die in 1 round, I think that although the exp/round rates are nearly the same (12/12 versus 10/14), I think that because it usually takes less than 5 seconds to get into a fight that the latter area will be slightly faster.

I also need to re-evaluate some of my shopping. I realized I was stupid for buying 2 keys for Wings, thinking it would lead to a faster escape...even if you hit level 13 with no MP left, it's definitely faster to run back to the inn, use it, then cast RETURN. I think I should also stick to just 5 keys and skip a round of Fairy Water purchases...they're only good for trips to Hauksness or Garinham, after that Repel will suffice. Once you're on Rimuldar don't bother using one, you should fight things you encounter on the way. Even with Erdrick's Sword they still die in 2 hits later on, and it's the same kinds of enemies you'll be fighting once you have it. Realizing that a round of combat takes 5 seconds has me really considering exp/round instead of exp/min. For instance, Metal Scorpions sometimes die in 1 hit at level 12 or 13, giving you 14 exp/round. Even Wolflords, which always die in 2 hits, only give 10 exp/round. An area of all Metal Scorpions would be the ideal area for those levels. It might not always hold true though. As an example, Wizards are the highest exp/round, because they usually die in 2 hits at higher levels, and that's 25 exp/round, but they can hit for a good chunk of damage. Plus other enemies in the area are dangerous and waste time.

Speedrunning this game is so weird. You don't want the optimal fastest route, but the average fastest route...

EDIT: I think I need to read the whole thread again, because I'm trying to figure out why Z is better than L for single segment. L has better short term benefits and performs worse against the Dragonlord, but because single segment aims for level 19 instead of 18 I think that drawback is mitigated. I'm sick of not being able to run away from things, and taking forever to get from level 12 to level 13.

Z or J are better for single segment runs because they chop off a level for defeating the Dragonlord. Without them you arguably would not be able to beat the Dragonlord at Lv. 19, and leveling up to 20 is 40 minutes.

In a segmented run though, there might be better options.

-James

[quote="ShinerCCC"]Darkwing Duck: are you going to be at the SDA marathon or at MAGfest? If so, do you plan on streaming a run of this game for me to synchronize with? I want to time a capture attempt at this run for the same time if so. Otherwise, I'll do one the moment I get back to Collegeville. I just need to make arrangements with my friend.

I made the two adventure logs today (well, I actually have to go get Erdrick's Sword on the level 13 one first. I wanted to see how feasible it was to rescue Gwaelin without it at that level, so I could do all my grinding in "Gwaelin in my arms" mode. It's possible but it might take all 6 Herbs). While doing all my grinding in Rimuldar I got out a little face clock-style watch and tried to time some things.

- A full round of combat (your attack, enemy's attack) takes about 5 seconds. This will vary depending on the enemy's name, of course. Metal Scorpion is 5.5 to 6 seconds.
- If they dodge, that makes for about a 4 second round, as consolation.
- If the enemy is asleep, it's about 4 seconds. But if they wake up, there's the extra line of text telling you they wake up, not sure if that adds a whole second or not.
- It takes ~19 seconds to go from the sandbar to the inn in Rimuldar and back.
- It takes ~39 seconds to go from the Wolflord hills (closest point) to Rimuldar and back. This was harder to measure because I would keep getting in fights on the way and have to mentally pause timing.
- Because it takes an extra 4000 gold to buy Magic Armor instead of Full Plate, and the infinite treasure chest gives gold at a rate of about 250 gold per minute, that means you would need to save 16 minutes = 960 seconds in inn trips for it to be fully worthwhile. That means you'd need a solution set for 19x + 39y >= 960 to see what a ridiculous amount of trips you'd need to exclude for it to be worthwhile. Once you hit level 11, I find you only need one inn trip halfway between each levelup, because HEAL can go a long, long way.
- It takes either 2 or 3 seconds to cast HEAL on the map.
- I don't know how long it takes for an enemy to attempt casting STOPSPELL on you, or how long things take while you're asleep.

So this got me thinking about a tactic I tried: at levels 4 and 5 I used HURT as my primary means of attacking. (I think I posted about this a long time ago but I'm too lazy to check) If I can shave off 4 rounds of combat in this manner, then after the impending early stay at the inn I have a profit of a few seconds. This also skips over the time it takes to cast HEAL and stay out in the wilderness longer. This has an extra gold cost associated with it, however, and if it requires Goldman fighting then that's a loss to consider. But the idea is to use my gold as a resource to boost my leveling speed. Levels 4, 5 and 6 are really awkward because your damage is still really low.

At level 7 I've found a wonderful new strategy. I recalled Warlocks are quite vulnerable to SLEEP so instead of running from them and waiting for another fight for about 15 seconds, I just open up with SLEEP until it works, then fight until they're dead. If they wake up after 1 turn I don't bother to re-cast it, I just keep fighting, they almost always die in 3 hits. If I have < 2 MP left then I just run from Warlocks. Ryan, can you test this strategy in the simulator from levels 7 through 9 versus just running from all Warlocks at those levels?

EDIT: I need something else tested too. Compare leveling from 13 to 14 using either Goldman/Wraith/Wolflord/Wyvern/Wyvern zone or Goldman/Wraith/Wolflord/Wolflord/Metal Scorpion zone. Both are right by Hauksness. Note how I lined them up; only two enemies differ. Because Metal Scorpion almost always dies in one round and Wolflord will sometimes die in 1 round, I think that although the exp/round rates are nearly the same (12/12 versus 10/14), I think that because it usually takes less than 5 seconds to get into a fight that the latter area will be slightly faster.

I also need to re-evaluate some of my shopping. I realized I was stupid for buying 2 keys for Wings, thinking it would lead to a faster escape...even if you hit level 13 with no MP left, it's definitely faster to run back to the inn, use it, then cast RETURN. I think I should also stick to just 5 keys and skip a round of Fairy Water purchases...they're only good for trips to Hauksness or Garinham, after that Repel will suffice. Once you're on Rimuldar don't bother using one, you should fight things you encounter on the way. Even with Erdrick's Sword they still die in 2 hits later on, and it's the same kinds of enemies you'll be fighting once you have it. Realizing that a round of combat takes 5 seconds has me really considering exp/round instead of exp/min. For instance, Metal Scorpions sometimes die in 1 hit at level 12 or 13, giving you 14 exp/round. Even Wolflords, which always die in 2 hits, only give 10 exp/round. An area of all Metal Scorpions would be the ideal area for those levels. It might not always hold true though. As an example, Wizards are the highest exp/round, because they usually die in 2 hits at higher levels, and that's 25 exp/round, but they can hit for a good chunk of damage. Plus other enemies in the area are dangerous and waste time.

Speedrunning this game is so weird. You don't want the optimal fastest route, but the average fastest route...

EDIT: I think I need to read the whole thread again, because I'm trying to figure out why Z is better than L for single segment. L has better short term benefits and performs worse against the Dragonlord, but because single segment aims for level 19 instead of 18 I think that drawback is mitigated. I'm sick of not being able to run away from things, and taking forever to get from level 12 to level 13.[/quote]

Z or J are better for single segment runs because they chop off a level for defeating the Dragonlord.  Without them you arguably would not be able to beat the Dragonlord at Lv. 19, and leveling up to 20 is 40 minutes.

In a segmented run though, there might be better options.

-James

ShinerCCC

2010-12-28 07:49:36 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

Just re-read the thread.
At level 19, Z has a 1% chance of losing to the Dragonlord.
At level 19, L has a 6% chance of losing to the Dragonlord.
But as we saw in the TG run, Z/J's lower agility made it harder for him to get away from those annoying Armored Knights and Red Dragons, who are the real threat to finishing the game in a timely fashion.
Tomorrow morning, I'm going to try a start-to-finish SS practice run with L. I think I've had the wrong idea about L all along by saying Z was an "obvious choice" for SS. L seems to get much faster exp/min rates by fighting Wyverns for the 12-13 grind in Rimuldar. Besides, I need the practice at doing the plot stuff without getting confused.

Segmented would definitely use Z though, only because the extra point of defense is needed at level 3 to fight Wolfs.

Protip for any flashy runners: if you die with Gwaelin in your arms she respawns in her cell. Bring extra keys.

Nightmare

Edit history:

Nightmare: 2010-12-28 08:44:20 pm

Nightmare: 2010-12-28 08:42:16 pm

Nightmare: 2010-12-28 08:41:30 pm

2010-12-28 08:39:49 pm

It's not that bad Shiner. I've had about 5 runs down to the Dragonlord and that run's about the only time I've really got tripped up. Usually it isn't that bad. You're overestimating it because the Red Dragon clipped me. That usually happens only once in 7 or 8 runs.

Armored Knights are bad no matter WHAT name you use. They are like the only enemies that break the two-turn run rule, unless you're packing something like Lv. 25-30. I particularly hate them in the NES.

Red Dragons, generally not a problem, I just unfortuantely got clipped on a bad one that run and I didn't want to reset after 7 hours of work when virtually everything but the Staff of Rain went right.

REALLY need to test out Wolves at Lv. 7 though down in Rimuldar. That's where I think my biggest improvement can be made.

And yes, Full Plate Armor means everything in the glitch run. You'll get clipped using other methods if you go down there on a non-gold Run, because you'll probably only have Chain Mail normally.

Wyverns at Lv. 12 are the bigger threat because they can knock your run dead and cost you all that gold you saved up for buying the Silver Shield. I had 2 runs end that way.

-James

It's not that bad Shiner.  I've had about 5 runs down to the Dragonlord and that run's about the only time I've really got tripped up.  Usually it isn't that bad.  You're overestimating it because the Red Dragon clipped me.  That usually happens only once in 7 or 8 runs.

Armored Knights are bad no matter WHAT name you use.  They are like the only enemies that break the two-turn run rule, unless you're packing something like Lv. 25-30.  I particularly hate them in the NES.

Red Dragons, generally not a problem, I just unfortuantely got clipped on a bad one that run and I didn't want to reset after 7 hours of work when virtually everything but the Staff of Rain went right.

REALLY need to test out Wolves at Lv. 7 though down in Rimuldar.  That's where I think my biggest improvement can be made.

And yes, Full Plate Armor means everything in the glitch run.  You'll get clipped using other methods if you go down there on a non-gold Run, because you'll probably only have Chain Mail normally.

Wyverns at Lv. 12 are the bigger threat because they can knock your run dead and cost  you all that gold you saved up for buying the Silver Shield.  I had 2 runs end that way.

-James

Ryan8bit

2010-12-29 08:34:12 am

Quote from ShinerCCC:

Ryan, can you test this strategy in the simulator from levels 7 through 9 versus just running from all Warlocks at those levels?

I think I had done some preliminary tests on this a long time ago. As I said above though, it will be some time before I get back to the simulator since I'm still working on the formulas FAQ. I was looking at the simulator last night and it's woefully inefficient speedwise.

Quote from ShinerCCC:

Just re-read the thread.
At level 19, Z has a 1% chance of losing to the Dragonlord.
At level 19, L has a 6% chance of losing to the Dragonlord.

Those were the stats before you found out the the second form's HP is fixed. I believe now it's more like 5% and 25%. And that's with full HP/MP.

Quote:

But as we saw in the TG run, Z/J's lower agility made it harder for him to get away from those annoying Armored Knights and Red Dragons, who are the real threat to finishing the game in a timely fashion.

Actually, from my earlier tests that I had done at Level 18, having higher agility raised the running chances in Charlock from ~67% to ~69%, which is a pretty marginal increase. Furthermore, the chances of death went from ~28% to ~27%. These might vary at Level 19, but probably not enough to make up that 20% gap for beating the Dragonlord. Unless there was a significant benefit for L earlier on, I'd still stick with Z. I'll do some tests on this though to make sure (when I get around to it).

[quote="ShinerCCC"]Ryan, can you test this strategy in the simulator from levels 7 through 9 versus just running from all Warlocks at those levels?[/quote]

I think I had done some preliminary tests on this a long time ago.  As I said above though, it will be some time before I get back to the simulator since I'm still working on the formulas FAQ.  I was looking at the simulator last night and it's woefully inefficient speedwise.

[quote="ShinerCCC"]Just re-read the thread.
At level 19, Z has a 1% chance of losing to the Dragonlord.
At level 19, L has a 6% chance of losing to the Dragonlord.[/quote]

Those were the stats before you found out the the second form's HP is fixed.  I believe now it's more like 5% and 25%.  And that's with full HP/MP.

[quote]But as we saw in the TG run, Z/J's lower agility made it harder for him to get away from those annoying Armored Knights and Red Dragons, who are the real threat to finishing the game in a timely fashion.[/quote]

Actually, from my earlier tests that I had done at Level 18, having higher agility raised the running chances in Charlock from ~67% to ~69%, which is a pretty marginal increase.  Furthermore, the chances of death went from ~28% to ~27%.  These might vary at Level 19, but probably not enough to make up that 20% gap for beating the Dragonlord.  Unless there was a significant benefit for L earlier on, I'd still stick with Z.  I'll do some tests on this though to make sure (when I get around to it).

ShinerCCC

2010-12-30 09:17:45 am

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

I did two test runs yesterday and they both failed 1 hour then 2 hours in for...stupid reasons. Mostly my fault, although luck did enter into it.

It feels like the game is significantly harder at the start for L because of his marginally lower agility. However the speed increase at levels 12 and 18 (or was it 17? Green Dragon resistance is acquired there) should pay off.

I'll try another run with L tomorrow. As for recording the run, I should be able to get a hold of my friend on the 31st.

Tuff_fish

2010-12-30 04:00:28 pm

hey everyone,

I skimmed through this thread and have a novel idea that might help with the gold glitch in the early game.

Sell your club (buy a bamboo pole) BEFORE heading to Rimuldar. Depending on where your gold is, this should be good for another herb.

A tentative single-segment route might look like this then,

Buy club, clothes, buy/sell dragon scale. Grind to level 4 using inn. You can still buy the pole and 2 herbs and comfortably have enough for 1 key.

ShinerCCC

Edit history:

ShinerCCC: 2011-01-01 10:23:31 am

ShinerCCC: 2011-01-01 10:23:16 am

2010-12-31 01:27:11 pm

Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.

In my route, I skip Clothes and just buy 2 Herbs. Then I don't have to go back to the store before leaving. But that's a novel idea. I won't be using it, however, because I usually have success with just using HEAL. I'm pretty sure it just takes too many steps to do all that shopping.

Anyway, I have the report of this morning's test run. Time is about 6 hours exactly. I'll just post a timeline and some Anecdotes after that.

7:20 AM - got out of bed and grabbed Xmas chocolate. Did a run, died at level 1 and again at level 2. I realized I wouldn't have enough gold to leave so I hit Reset.
Next run, I died at level 1 because I tried to punch a Red Slime while I was naked and missed. Retaliated for 3 damage. This led to my eventual demise. I had to heal using the magic dude in Tantegel castle.
8:11 - gold farming is done.
13:30 - Dragonlord is dead.

Notable Anecdotes:
- name chosen: (. Same growth as L, but ( looks like many things, such as a winking slime when followed by a '. The name represents the new hope for this run. Why are there even parentheses as selectable characters for your name? Next time I play a Dragon Warrior game, my name is going to be f(g(x)), and the first weapon I buy will be a Chain Sickle.
- Kept my initial Torch all the way until the final assault.
- I keep fighting Red Slimes while traveling to places when I'm still level 4. They seldom die in 1 hit anyway, it's such a waste of time compared to the greener pastures ahead...
- I killed a Poltergeist with Hurt in the second basement of the gold cave at level 4. Woo! (In other test runs, I find Drolls are easy targets for Hurt too, and give a chunky 10 exp)
- Hurt on Wolfs at levels 4 and 5 is a good idea after all. I thought about going back to the entrance of the cave on the north of the island, where one Wolf is replaced with a Scorpion, but realized that was dumb because it takes so long to walk to, and is too far from town to be safe.
- I know I had lots of close calls grinding at these early levels...I know there were several instances of "if this monster dodges the run is over" and "I'm certain this Wolf is dead on the next hit". Yet at the same time, I went to heal with 14 or 16 HP left a lot. I'm getting better at this sort of thing.
- The Warlock thing is actually not worth it. I had FIVE SLEEP casts fail. Two of them were consecutive. 3/16 chance. Got put to sleep too many times as well. I started running from them at level 9.
- Shortly after I reached level 10, I fought a Wraith. It dodged my killing blow, then cast HEAL. In the very next fight, the exact same thing happened. Later, at level 14, a Wraith Knight did it to me too ;_;
- accidentally ran from one Wolflord. Maybe because I had beef jerky in my offhand, maybe because it was coloured red sort of like a Warlock, maybe it was my because he got a surprise attack on me and I got scurred...I don't know why.
- accidentally fought 1 round with the first Goldman that surprised me. This led to me having to retreat to town early too, right before hitting level 13, because I took 7 HP and had 7 left after that.
- Wyverns at level 12 were no problem and made the grind to 13 quite pleasurable.
- Bought 4 keys, thinking I would skip Fairy Water, then rescinded my decision and bought two more.
- Did not fight any Goldmans. Only got blocked by one once, only got surprised by them twice.
- Had available MP for Return when Level 13 was reached.
- had 14778 gold on the way over there, had to fight a Wyvern first
- Golem stayed asleep for the whole fight, first try.
- Knew exactly where Erdrick's Token was this time around *_*
- I made a little oopsie...retrieved the Stones of Sunlight while I still had a full inventory. so I used a Fairy Water, opened the chest, then realized I was dumb for doing this before Erdrick's Armor.
- Axe Knight died on my first try, due in part to a ballsy maneuver. I had something like 22 HP left, and had a hunch I would kill the Axe Knight on my next hit, even though I still had 3 Herbs left. I went for the attack, and my hunch was wrong. Luckily I only took 19 damage, and survived to deal the true killing blow.
- The sword raid was pretty scary. I stole the sword with only 7 MP remaining. I figured it would be fastest to cast OUTSIDE, then patrol the desert for a quicker deathwarp. Killed a Knight and a Werewolf before another Werewolf killed me. Pretty good.

PART 2
SO MANY DEATHS. SO. MANY. DEATHS. Not sure if I can even recall them all. I must have died 7 or 8 times.
14: close to level 15, ~40 HP left, tangled with a Demon Knight, I did 35 damage, then got double dodged ;_;
16: Starwyvern did me in. I chose to fight it with 16 HP left, that was stupid
16: regular Wyvern sniped me while I was convalescing outside of Hauksness with 16 HP left. Did 10, then 9 damage. wtf?!
17: Wizard didn't die in 2 hits
17: Green Dragon didn't die in 2 hits
18: fought the Axe Knight and won, Starwyvern finished me off

- L has resistance to Wraith Knights at level 14 as well. What a pimp. He can also fight Demon Knights no problem if he has lots of HP in reserve. South Hauksness is a good place to grind, use the eastern notch to heal up.
- I fought 2 Metal Slimes. Killed the first one in 4 turns, killed the second one in 7 turns. Left after that, thanking my good fortune.
- Had an idea to head to that obscure area by Cantlin to fight Werewolves mixed with Knights. I knew there was no desert by there, so I tested the fringe of the hills by the bridge, but that's not in that zone. I returned to the desert shortly after.
- Way, way, way, way too many Starwyverns got HEALMORE off. I think I let one Starwyvern use it 4 times. JUST CAST STOPSPELL YOU IDIOT
- I was wrong, defense is NOT high enough to resist Axe Knight attacks at level 19. In fact you only gain 2 more Agility at level 19. Still, it felt a LOT easier to run from stuff. With the exception of an Axe Knight that put me to sleep and almost killed me, only Armored Knights blocked me, and usually for not too long either. This has to be superstition though, I recall the formula for running and against lategame monsters like that, you're just rolling your agility against theirs, every point of agility is only a 1/256 greater chance of running *_*
- for MAD STYLE POINTS I rescued Gwaelin on the way to the final battle. I knew I'd put that 6th key to good use.
- I noticed on the way to Charlock I still only had 3 Herbs. Uhoh. Too late to turn back now. But I also promised myself not to die, so I wouldn't lose Gwaelin.
- funniest thing I've ever seen running this game on the way to the Dragonlord: on Charlock Island a Warlock surprised me and put me to sleep. He then cast HURT on me, while I was asleep...for SIX TURNS. Then he ran away. This, to me, is evidence that a deeper intelligence lurks in machines and will arise in the form of a technological singularity one day. Nevermind that Gwaelin was an easy target while I was asleep >_>
- Patrolled on the Dragonlord's grass from 80 to 110 HP (120 max). at 119 HP, 2 steps from the throne, a Wizard draws near. I get away. One step from the throne, an Armored Knight shows up and takes me back to down to 80. I gobble down an Herb and get on with it at 109 HP.
- I go into the second form with 111 HP and the Dragonlord gets a surprise round on me. Me, the guy with the most Agility. The fight came down to the last hit. I only got in two attacks before using a HEALMORE once. I think L, er, (, is pretty solid.
- Made Gwaelin say "But thou must." only 3 times before getting on with the credits.

So, at worst, this time is 6:10, but I estimate the second run started at about 7:25 or 7:30 so it's more like 6:00 or 6:05. I guess that will be the time to beat, especially for all you feeble J users out there. Besides, DRAGON WARRIOR ZEEEEEE

EDIT: The arrangement has been made. My friend's place, with at least three guest commentators, 2 PM PST January 3rd. I won't bother looking into how to stream the footage, I don't think anyone will watch anyway. Wish me luck.

In my route, I skip Clothes and just buy 2 Herbs. Then I don't have to go back to the store before leaving. But that's a novel idea. I won't be using it, however, because I usually have success with just using HEAL. I'm pretty sure it just takes too many steps to do all that shopping.

Anyway, I have the report of this morning's test run. Time is about [b]6 hours exactly[/b]. I'll just post a timeline and some Anecdotes after that.

7:20 AM - got out of bed and grabbed Xmas chocolate. Did a run, died at level 1 and again at level 2. I realized I wouldn't have enough gold to leave so I hit Reset.
Next run, I died at level 1 because I tried to punch a Red Slime while I was naked and missed. Retaliated for 3 damage. This led to my eventual demise. I had to heal using the magic dude in Tantegel castle.
8:11 - gold farming is done.
13:30 - Dragonlord is dead.

Notable Anecdotes:
- name chosen: (. Same growth as L, but ( looks like many things, such as a winking slime when followed by a '. The name represents the new hope for this run. Why are there even parentheses as selectable characters for your name? Next time I play a Dragon Warrior game, my name is going to be f(g(x)), and the first weapon I buy will be a Chain Sickle.
- Kept my initial Torch all the way until the final assault.
- I keep fighting Red Slimes while traveling to places when I'm still level 4. They seldom die in 1 hit anyway, it's such a waste of time compared to the greener pastures ahead...
- I killed a Poltergeist with Hurt in the second basement of the gold cave at level 4. Woo! (In other test runs, I find Drolls are easy targets for Hurt too, and give a chunky 10 exp)
- Hurt on Wolfs at levels 4 and 5 is a good idea after all. I thought about going back to the entrance of the cave on the north of the island, where one Wolf is replaced with a Scorpion, but realized that was dumb because it takes so long to walk to, and is too far from town to be safe.
- I know I had lots of close calls grinding at these early levels...I know there were several instances of "if this monster dodges the run is over" and "I'm certain this Wolf is dead on the next hit". Yet at the same time, I went to heal with 14 or 16 HP left a lot. I'm getting better at this sort of thing.
- The Warlock thing is actually not worth it. I had FIVE SLEEP casts fail. Two of them were consecutive. 3/16 chance. Got put to sleep too many times as well. I started running from them at level 9.
- Shortly after I reached level 10, I fought a Wraith. It dodged my killing blow, then cast HEAL. In the very next fight, the exact same thing happened. Later, at level 14, a Wraith Knight did it to me too ;_;
- accidentally ran from one Wolflord. Maybe because I had beef jerky in my offhand, maybe because it was coloured red sort of like a Warlock, maybe it was my because he got a surprise attack on me and I got scurred...I don't know why.
- accidentally fought 1 round with the first Goldman that surprised me. This led to me having to retreat to town early too, right before hitting level 13, because I took 7 HP and had 7 left after that.
- Wyverns at level 12 were no problem and made the grind to 13 quite pleasurable.
- Bought 4 keys, thinking I would skip Fairy Water, then rescinded my decision and bought two more.
- Did not fight any Goldmans. Only got blocked by one once, only got surprised by them twice.
- Had available MP for Return when Level 13 was reached.
- had 14778 gold on the way over there, had to fight a Wyvern first
- Golem stayed asleep for the whole fight, first try.
- Knew exactly where Erdrick's Token was this time around *_*
- I made a little oopsie...retrieved the Stones of Sunlight while I still had a full inventory. so I used a Fairy Water, opened the chest, then realized I was dumb for doing this before Erdrick's Armor.
- Axe Knight died on my first try, due in part to a ballsy maneuver. I had something like 22 HP left, and had a hunch I would kill the Axe Knight on my next hit, even though I still had 3 Herbs left. I went for the attack, and my hunch was wrong. Luckily I only took 19 damage, and survived to deal the true killing blow.
- The sword raid was pretty scary. I stole the sword with only 7 MP remaining. I figured it would be fastest to cast OUTSIDE, then patrol the desert for a quicker deathwarp. Killed a Knight and a Werewolf before another Werewolf killed me. Pretty good.

PART 2
SO MANY DEATHS. SO. MANY. DEATHS. Not sure if I can even recall them all. I must have died 7 or 8 times.
14: close to level 15, ~40 HP left, tangled with a Demon Knight, I did 35 damage, then got double dodged ;_;
16: Starwyvern did me in. I chose to fight it with 16 HP left, that was stupid
16: regular Wyvern sniped me while I was convalescing outside of Hauksness with 16 HP left. Did 10, then 9 damage. wtf?!
17: Wizard didn't die in 2 hits
17: Green Dragon didn't die in 2 hits
18: fought the Axe Knight and won, Starwyvern finished me off

- L has resistance to Wraith Knights at level 14 as well. What a pimp. He can also fight Demon Knights no problem if he has lots of HP in reserve. South Hauksness is a good place to grind, use the eastern notch to heal up.
- I fought 2 Metal Slimes. Killed the first one in 4 turns, killed the second one in 7 turns. Left after that, thanking my good fortune.
- Had an idea to head to that obscure area by Cantlin to fight Werewolves mixed with Knights. I knew there was no desert by there, so I tested the fringe of the hills by the bridge, but that's not in that zone. I returned to the desert shortly after.
- Way, way, way, way too many Starwyverns got HEALMORE off. I think I let one Starwyvern use it 4 times. JUST CAST STOPSPELL YOU IDIOT
- I was wrong, defense is NOT high enough to resist Axe Knight attacks at level 19. In fact you only gain 2 more Agility at level 19. Still, it felt a LOT easier to run from stuff. With the exception of an Axe Knight that put me to sleep and almost killed me, only Armored Knights blocked me, and usually for not too long either. This has to be superstition though, I recall the formula for running and against lategame monsters like that, you're just rolling your agility against theirs, every point of agility is only a 1/256 greater chance of running *_*
- for MAD STYLE POINTS I rescued Gwaelin on the way to the final battle. I knew I'd put that 6th key to good use.
- I noticed on the way to Charlock I still only had 3 Herbs. Uhoh. Too late to turn back now. But I also promised myself not to die, so I wouldn't lose Gwaelin.
- funniest thing I've ever seen running this game on the way to the Dragonlord: on Charlock Island a Warlock surprised me and put me to sleep. He then cast HURT on me, while I was asleep...for SIX TURNS. Then he ran away. This, to me, is evidence that a deeper intelligence lurks in machines and will arise in the form of a technological singularity one day. Nevermind that Gwaelin was an easy target while I was asleep >_>
- Patrolled on the Dragonlord's grass from 80 to 110 HP (120 max). at 119 HP, 2 steps from the throne, a Wizard draws near. I get away. One step from the throne, an Armored Knight shows up and takes me back to down to 80. I gobble down an Herb and get on with it at 109 HP.
- I go into the second form with 111 HP and the Dragonlord gets a surprise round on me. Me, the guy with the most Agility. The fight came down to the last hit. I only got in two attacks before using a HEALMORE once. I think L, er, (, is pretty solid.
- Made Gwaelin say "But thou must." only 3 times before getting on with the credits.

So, at worst, this time is 6:10, but I estimate the second run started at about 7:25 or 7:30 so it's more like 6:00 or 6:05. I guess that will be the time to beat, especially for all you feeble J users out there. Besides, DRAGON WARRIOR ZEEEEEE

EDIT: The arrangement has been made. My friend's place, with at least three guest commentators, 2 PM PST January 3rd. I won't bother looking into how to stream the footage, I don't think anyone will watch anyway. Wish me luck.

Melodia

2011-01-02 12:23:48 pm

(Yes, I regostered just to post in this thread)

It's nice to see this being continued. I remember reading through this whole thread back before DQIX came out and it inspired me to attempt this game again (and that attempt went really bad...) and even buy DQIV DS....but anyway.

I know this was from a couple weeks ago, but it seems to me there's a very simple reason why the Dragon's Scale selling is allowed -- it's part of the way the game is programed. There's nothing you can do to rid yourself of that bonus. It's like in FFVI where you equip things based on the fact that mblock covers both physical and magical, or in FFT equipping a chameleon robe to prevent the AI from lightning stabbing you. I'm sure both of those would also be accepted, as they are not changing the actual rules of the game, as it were, because the rule is already wrong. Penalizing someone from doing a normal gameplay action (in this case, selling an item) just because the programers made an error seems like an unfair arbetrary restriction.

(Yes, I regostered just to post in this thread)

It's nice to see this being continued. I remember reading through this whole thread back before DQIX came out and it inspired me to attempt this game again (and that attempt went really bad...) and even buy DQIV DS....but anyway.

I know this was from a couple weeks ago, but it seems to me there's a very simple reason why the Dragon's Scale selling is allowed -- it's part of the way the game is programed. There's nothing you can do to rid yourself of that bonus. It's like in FFVI where you equip things based on the fact that mblock covers both physical and magical, or in FFT equipping a chameleon robe to prevent the AI from lightning stabbing you. I'm sure both of those would also be accepted, as they are not changing the actual rules of the game, as it were, because the rule is already wrong. Penalizing someone from doing a normal gameplay action (in this case, selling an item) just because the programers made an error seems like an unfair arbetrary restriction.

Ryan8bit

2011-01-03 08:57:10 am

Quote from Melodia:

it seems to me there's a very simple reason why the Dragon's Scale selling is allowed -- it's part of the way the game is programed. There's nothing you can do to rid yourself of that bonus. It's like in FFVI where you equip things based on the fact that mblock covers both physical and magical, or in FFT equipping a chameleon robe to prevent the AI from lightning stabbing you. I'm sure both of those would also be accepted, as they are not changing the actual rules of the game, as it were, because the rule is already wrong. Penalizing someone from doing a normal gameplay action (in this case, selling an item) just because the programers made an error seems like an unfair arbetrary restriction.

By this definition, the gold bug is also the way it is programmed, it's just that the process is longer and the benefit greater than with the Dragon Scale. It's all the same normal gameplay actions, and the only reason it got found is because someone had experienced it on accident not knowing what they did.

[quote="Melodia"]it seems to me there's a very simple reason why the Dragon's Scale selling is allowed -- it's part of the way the game is programed. There's nothing you can do to rid yourself of that bonus. It's like in FFVI where you equip things based on the fact that mblock covers both physical and magical, or in FFT equipping a chameleon robe to prevent the AI from lightning stabbing you. I'm sure both of those would also be accepted, as they are not changing the actual rules of the game, as it were, because the rule is already wrong. Penalizing someone from doing a normal gameplay action (in this case, selling an item) just because the programers made an error seems like an unfair arbetrary restriction.[/quote]

By this definition, the gold bug is also the way it is programmed, it's just that the process is longer and the benefit greater than with the Dragon Scale.  It's all the same normal gameplay actions, and the only reason it got found is because someone had experienced it on accident not knowing what they did.

kareshi

2011-01-03 09:17:02 am

Quote from ShinerCCC:

EDIT: The arrangement has been made. My friend's place, with at least three guest commentators, 2 PM PST January 3rd. I won't bother looking into how to stream the footage, I don't think anyone will watch anyway. Wish me luck.

I would totally tune in to that.