I actually believe that sub 7 hours is theoretically possible for the 101%. I've been actually thinking that I should just go through and finish a full run even if its not good enough to submit just to get a better idea of how much I have improved since the 7:50 and to get a better estimate for what the final time would be.
SDA Forum
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
Thanks, everyone.
As soon as Mike is online.
Now that this run is finally done, we need to decide exactly what counts as a major skip. We didn't really settle on it before. The tricks under consideration were these:
Everyone agreed that the first two should be major skips, and I think the third being a major skip was pretty much accepted as well (correct me if I'm wrong). I initially wanted the BOM skip to be a major skip, but now I'm not sure that it should be. It only saves about seven minutes in a 3-4 hour run. It's less severe than the trials skip in OoT, which is already pretty borderline. And since you'll be collecting plenty of bananas in an NMS run to get into boss fights, skipping the Rareware Coin isn't very major (and skipping the Nintendo Coin wasn't very major in the first place). So, I think only the first three tricks on the list above should be majors skips.
EDIT: The run is up for verification:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php?topic=1285.0
Quote from tjp7154:
So when's the submission coming? 
As soon as Mike is online.
Quote from leftysheroes:
Hmm, just a Smiley barrage. Its kind of dissapointing considering Aztec Lobby 2 got a really cool looking flaming message.
Now that this run is finally done, we need to decide exactly what counts as a major skip. We didn't really settle on it before. The tricks under consideration were these:
- Hideout Helm early
- K. Rool early
- Glitching into boss fights
- Blast-o-Matic shutdown skip
- Rareware/Nintendo Coin skip
Everyone agreed that the first two should be major skips, and I think the third being a major skip was pretty much accepted as well (correct me if I'm wrong). I initially wanted the BOM skip to be a major skip, but now I'm not sure that it should be. It only saves about seven minutes in a 3-4 hour run. It's less severe than the trials skip in OoT, which is already pretty borderline. And since you'll be collecting plenty of bananas in an NMS run to get into boss fights, skipping the Rareware Coin isn't very major (and skipping the Nintendo Coin wasn't very major in the first place). So, I think only the first three tricks on the list above should be majors skips.
EDIT: The run is up for verification:
http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php?topic=1285.0
Quote from Manocheese:
Now that this run is finally done, we need to decide exactly what counts as a major skip. We didn't really settle on it before. The tricks under consideration were these:
Everyone agreed that the first two should be major skips, and I think the third being a major skip was pretty much accepted as well (correct me if I'm wrong). I initially wanted the BOM skip to be a major skip, but now I'm not sure that it should be. It only saves about seven minutes in a 3-4 hour run. It's less severe than the trials skip in OoT, which is already pretty borderline. And since you'll be collecting plenty of bananas in an NMS run to get into boss fights, skipping the Rareware Coin isn't very major (and skipping the Nintendo Coin wasn't very major in the first place). So, I think only the first three tricks on the list above should be majors skips.
- Hideout Helm early
- K. Rool early
- Glitching into boss fights
- Blast-o-Matic shutdown skip
- Rareware/Nintendo Coin skip
Everyone agreed that the first two should be major skips, and I think the third being a major skip was pretty much accepted as well (correct me if I'm wrong). I initially wanted the BOM skip to be a major skip, but now I'm not sure that it should be. It only saves about seven minutes in a 3-4 hour run. It's less severe than the trials skip in OoT, which is already pretty borderline. And since you'll be collecting plenty of bananas in an NMS run to get into boss fights, skipping the Rareware Coin isn't very major (and skipping the Nintendo Coin wasn't very major in the first place). So, I think only the first three tricks on the list above should be majors skips.
I agree with the top 3 being major skips. For the Blast-o-Matic skip even if the time saved is shorter turning off the Blast-o-Matic is essentially the same thing as doing the trials in OoT so IMO as long as trials counts as a major skip Blast-o-Matic should be a major skip as well. That being said perhaps trials skip shouldn't have been a major skip in the first place.
For Rareware Coin skip its very possible that in the process of collecting the bananas to open up the boss gates that 15 banana medals may be collected without even trying(it will probably be more like 12) so there is fair reason to strike this from the list. The time saved from not having to get the coins would probably be somewhere in the 10-15 minute range.
Congratulations Manocheese! 
Regarding the major skips topic, I agree that the first three are major skips, while the other two are probably not. However, if skipping the Rare/Nintendo coins is decided to be a major skip, I think that the Crown door should be included in that. I know that there's actual items behind the Rare/Nintendo door, but even though the Crowns aren't as "special or unique" as the coins (iirc that was at least part of the justification for that door not being a major skip earlier), the principle behind both doors is the same. To go with the trials analogy, it feels like saying "You have to beat the Water and Spirit trials, but then you can skip the rest," in other words completely arbitrary.
However, I must ask, what exactly is the reasoning behind what is a major skip and what is not? Is it only how much game time it saves?
Regarding the major skips topic, I agree that the first three are major skips, while the other two are probably not. However, if skipping the Rare/Nintendo coins is decided to be a major skip, I think that the Crown door should be included in that. I know that there's actual items behind the Rare/Nintendo door, but even though the Crowns aren't as "special or unique" as the coins (iirc that was at least part of the justification for that door not being a major skip earlier), the principle behind both doors is the same. To go with the trials analogy, it feels like saying "You have to beat the Water and Spirit trials, but then you can skip the rest," in other words completely arbitrary.
However, I must ask, what exactly is the reasoning behind what is a major skip and what is not? Is it only how much game time it saves?
Quote from PMIT:
Regarding the major skips topic, I agree that the first three are major skips, while the other two are probably not. However, if skipping the Rare/Nintendo coins is decided to be a major skip, I think that the Crown door should be included in that. I know that there's actual items behind the Rare/Nintendo door, but even though the Crowns aren't as "special or unique" as the coins (iirc that was at least part of the justification for that door not being a major skip earlier), the principle behind both doors is the same. To go with the trials analogy, it feels like saying "You have to beat the Water and Spirit trials, but then you can skip the rest," in other words completely arbitrary.
However, I must ask, what exactly is the reasoning behind what is a major skip and what is not? Is it only how much game time it saves?
However, I must ask, what exactly is the reasoning behind what is a major skip and what is not? Is it only how much game time it saves?
I think that you have a pretty good point about the battle crowns. In order to get key 8 in Helm the game would normally requires the crowns for one door and the coins for another. It doesn't make sense to require the items needed to open one of the doors but not the other.
A lot of people feel trials shouldn't be a part of the NMS definition for OoT, so that isn't a particularly strong precedent. Furthermore, one of the main reasons it was classified as such was because it originally involved an unloaded room, which was very debatable considering SDA's repulsion to OoB glitchs. As we are totally find with OoB now, this should not be a factor in DK64.
- I agree with keys, 100 GB, and bananas to get the keys being the only required things for NMS.
- I believe Lanky Glitch / Chunky Technique / DK Trick should all be legal to enter levels early...it is similar to BitDW early being used in the 16 star TAS.
- Crowns and coins simply aren't major, that would be similar to requiring all small keys in an OoT run.
On another note, I'd much rather see a "segmented" (obviously judged closer to SS standards) run of this game, aiming for sub 50. There are a few useful savewarps, major time saved in Helm, and the ability to do Aztec early, so sub 50 seems reasonable given a :54 for SS. Speaking of Aztec early, someone should try TASing it and seeing if they can do it without Chimpy Charge. If you could start a cartwheel attack it seems possible, and it may be possible from a simple mid-air standing combo (hm...I think this needs a better name). If it can't be done, we would need to decide how to change the coin route / cranky route to get CC before AA.
- I agree with keys, 100 GB, and bananas to get the keys being the only required things for NMS.
- I believe Lanky Glitch / Chunky Technique / DK Trick should all be legal to enter levels early...it is similar to BitDW early being used in the 16 star TAS.
- Crowns and coins simply aren't major, that would be similar to requiring all small keys in an OoT run.
On another note, I'd much rather see a "segmented" (obviously judged closer to SS standards) run of this game, aiming for sub 50. There are a few useful savewarps, major time saved in Helm, and the ability to do Aztec early, so sub 50 seems reasonable given a :54 for SS. Speaking of Aztec early, someone should try TASing it and seeing if they can do it without Chimpy Charge. If you could start a cartwheel attack it seems possible, and it may be possible from a simple mid-air standing combo (hm...I think this needs a better name). If it can't be done, we would need to decide how to change the coin route / cranky route to get CC before AA.
Quote from RingRush:
A lot of people feel trials shouldn't be a part of the NMS definition for OoT, so that isn't a particularly strong precedent. Furthermore, one of the main reasons it was classified as such was because it originally involved an unloaded room, which was very debatable considering SDA's repulsion to OoB glitchs. As we are totally find with OoB now, this should not be a factor in DK64.
I wasn't actually saying that trials should be counted as precedent for Blast-o-Matic skip being a major skip. I just said that if Blast-o-Matic skip isn't major(which I don't think it is at this point) then trials skip isn't major either.
Quote from RingRush:
On another note, I'd much rather see a "segmented" (obviously judged closer to SS standards) run of this game, aiming for sub 50. There are a few useful savewarps, major time saved in Helm, and the ability to do Aztec early, so sub 50 seems reasonable given a :54 for SS. Speaking of Aztec early, someone should try TASing it and seeing if they can do it without Chimpy Charge. If you could start a cartwheel attack it seems possible, and it may be possible from a simple mid-air standing combo (hm...I think this needs a better name). If it can't be done, we would need to decide how to change the coin route / cranky route to get CC before AA.
Being able to skip turning off the Blast-o-Matic would save at least 3 minutes by itself so that would already put it down to a 0:51. Whatever changes that would eventually need to be made to the route to accomodate Aztec Lobby early it would still most likely save significant time compared to fighting Army Dillo/turning in Key 1 and watching the cinema. Without considering other advantages of doing this segmented that would most likely be enough for sub 50 minutes.
Well I just wanted to let everyone know that I am indeed still working on 101%. I did take a break cause I felt that I was starting to get burnt out on playing this as well as dealing with the frustration that comes with my brilliance at finding new and creative ways to screw up.
I have found a couple new tricks.
-The first trick I actually found while verifying Manocheese's any%. In the DK round of the K Rool fight if you jump and attack around when the round clock reads 2:47:30 you will get into the barrel as it appears and the time waiting for K Rool to expose himself to being hit actually takes place during the cutscene showing the barrels. Its really easy once you know the timing and I wish I had found it earlier so Manocheese could have used it.
-The second trick is for the game inside the fish in Gloomy Galleon. If you stand on the right spot you can time it so that you hit both of the top targets with peanuts at the same time and thus scoring a hit on BOTH targets. If I can get the timing right all 3 times(still need practice with this) I can reduce the number of times waiting for the propeller to spin from 11 to 6 which saves somewhere between 30 and 50 seconds.
EDIT: Well there seems to be a small problem with this one. If you manage to hit both of the higher targets in one cycle as long as you keep hitting targets the fan will only give you something like a quarter fo a half of a second before starting up again since it apparently thinks that you hit a target on that round already(presumably as a result of hitting 2 in the previous round). Every time that I practiced this my first opening was the 2 on top so I should still be able to do this in 8 rounds I would just have to ignore the bottom on one of the rounds so that I could then get enough time to get a second double hit and also finish the game with the bottom target. Its probably possible to sneak a double hit in when the fan starts up fast but I don't really see me being able to pull that off. It is also possible to hit the same target twice in one cycle but its very random.
I have found a couple new tricks.
-The first trick I actually found while verifying Manocheese's any%. In the DK round of the K Rool fight if you jump and attack around when the round clock reads 2:47:30 you will get into the barrel as it appears and the time waiting for K Rool to expose himself to being hit actually takes place during the cutscene showing the barrels. Its really easy once you know the timing and I wish I had found it earlier so Manocheese could have used it.
-The second trick is for the game inside the fish in Gloomy Galleon. If you stand on the right spot you can time it so that you hit both of the top targets with peanuts at the same time and thus scoring a hit on BOTH targets. If I can get the timing right all 3 times(still need practice with this) I can reduce the number of times waiting for the propeller to spin from 11 to 6 which saves somewhere between 30 and 50 seconds.
EDIT: Well there seems to be a small problem with this one. If you manage to hit both of the higher targets in one cycle as long as you keep hitting targets the fan will only give you something like a quarter fo a half of a second before starting up again since it apparently thinks that you hit a target on that round already(presumably as a result of hitting 2 in the previous round). Every time that I practiced this my first opening was the 2 on top so I should still be able to do this in 8 rounds I would just have to ignore the bottom on one of the rounds so that I could then get enough time to get a second double hit and also finish the game with the bottom target. Its probably possible to sneak a double hit in when the fan starts up fast but I don't really see me being able to pull that off. It is also possible to hit the same target twice in one cycle but its very random.
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
Good to hear that you're still working on the 101%.
I actually did know about that trick, but I didn't do it properly in my run.
Quote from leftysheroes:
The first trick I actually found while verifying Manocheese's any%. In the DK round of the K Rool fight if you jump and attack around when the round clock reads 2:47:30 you will get into the barrel as it appears and the time waiting for K Rool to expose himself to being hit actually takes place during the cutscene showing the barrels. Its really easy once you know the timing and I wish I had found it earlier so Manocheese could have used it.
I actually did know about that trick, but I didn't do it properly in my run.
Quote from Manocheese:
Good to hear that you're still working on the 101%.
I actually did know about that trick, but I didn't do it properly in my run.
I actually did know about that trick, but I didn't do it properly in my run.
I only thought that since you never actually jumped in the run. I usually jump earlier and then do a midair attack rather than trying to get the jump timing perfect.
Alright I have been testing on that Galleon mechanical fish for about 4 hours and I think that I have a consistent strategy to win that game with about 58(you heard me) seconds left on the clock. It goes something like this.
1. Quickly get into position and shoot bottom target.
2. Shoot zinger.
3. Shoot both targets on top.
4. Shoot the bottom target twice. The fan has to start moving again before you can hit it.
5. Shoot the top left target once. Once again the fan has to be moving.
6. Shoot the top right target twice. It only seems to let me hit this one at this point when the fan is going full speed(yeah because that makes sense)
7. Shoot the top left target. I just send a stream of peanuts towards it after finishing the right target. It usually gets hit when the fan is going fast as well.
Okay heres my theory on why this works. I have NO FREAKING IDEA!!!!!!!!!! For some reason apparently the developers apparently must of thought that noone would ever be skilled enough to quickly hit both the top targets so when you actually pull it off the RNG of the game goes apeshit or something.(Unless someone can explain this to me I will be copy/pasting that paragraph into the run comments when its done.)
As far as time goes this strategy would be about 58-65 seconds faster than what I was doing on previous 101% attempts so thats a pretty big deal.
I found this tidbit posted on my DK64 trick vid part 2.
"@RingRush
Concerning the comment you made in my profile, getting zero bananas AND zero percent is a possibility, but it hangs on being able to glitch out of the eighth key room. Savewarping or selecting Exit Level is not an option because the pause menu is disabled. I'm also invincible (i.e. no death by oranges) and the Blast-o-Matic timer is unavailable. How do your "more glitches" help me escape the eighth key room?"
I told him the method of turning off the Blast-O-Matic with Diddy. But whatever he has done to get to this point baffles me...somehow he must have gotten to Hideout Helm or Creepy Castle without Diddy/Tiny (or else beat boss 5 w/o Chunky). Either way, this sounds potentially major, and I'll post again when I find out what he did.
"@RingRush
Concerning the comment you made in my profile, getting zero bananas AND zero percent is a possibility, but it hangs on being able to glitch out of the eighth key room. Savewarping or selecting Exit Level is not an option because the pause menu is disabled. I'm also invincible (i.e. no death by oranges) and the Blast-o-Matic timer is unavailable. How do your "more glitches" help me escape the eighth key room?"
I told him the method of turning off the Blast-O-Matic with Diddy. But whatever he has done to get to this point baffles me...somehow he must have gotten to Hideout Helm or Creepy Castle without Diddy/Tiny (or else beat boss 5 w/o Chunky). Either way, this sounds potentially major, and I'll post again when I find out what he did.
Yes, a cucco riding the ground.
He (Glitcher2000) got 4 of DK's GBs in Japes (all but the blueprint GB), then used an Intro Story glitch to make them reappear. He then got the same 4, which caused the number of GBs to go back to 0. By then, he had freed Diddy and the game said that he hadn't collected any GBs. He got key 1 and proceeded as "usual". The Intro Story glitch he used had some side effects that prevented him from pausing or taking damage, so shutting down the power won't help.
Oh, thats lame. If you are going to do an intro-story glitch on an already created file, you might as well make K. Rool's ship crash, and then do the traditional FW glitch overwrite on the file. 0%, 0GB, just like that.
There is my method of escaping HH through OoB, but I assume the problem is getting OoB in the key 8 room. If that is the case, just get the coins and battle crowns, since you are already getting stuff before the Intro Story glitch.
Really, mid-game resets through ISG (lol acronym) shouldn't count for much. I'd be curious to see a 101% route with a mid-game ISG (basically, just collecting the GBs as fast as possible), yet I know that doesn't really count for anything.
There is my method of escaping HH through OoB, but I assume the problem is getting OoB in the key 8 room. If that is the case, just get the coins and battle crowns, since you are already getting stuff before the Intro Story glitch.
Really, mid-game resets through ISG (lol acronym) shouldn't count for much. I'd be curious to see a 101% route with a mid-game ISG (basically, just collecting the GBs as fast as possible), yet I know that doesn't really count for anything.