Credibility

2015-12-12 10:21:36 am

So now that we're allowing emulation for speed running (see Virtual Console run for Donkey Kong 64 for more information), can I now make submissions using Snes9x? And if not, I'd really like to know why.

The Virtual Console is an emulator. It's not the original system. It attempts to execute games that were intended for an entirely different architecture. That is, by definition, emulation.

In fact, to quote Wikipedia's article on the Virtual Console:
"These titles are run in their original forms through software emulation..."

Yet somehow Virtual Console emulation is more acceptable than other forms of emulation. And the only reason I can surmise that this is the case is because the Virtual Console is an officially licensed product from a huge corporation as opposed to a fan-made creation. Why are some emulators acceptable for speed running but others aren't?

It can't be related to the quality of the emulator because that would be an inconsistent standard. It could easily be argued that Lsnes is far more accurate than the Virtual Console. And what if a fan were to make an emulator that was 100% accurate? Would that be allowed as well as the Virtual Console?

In my eyes, this site has been losing its credibility for a while, but this latest publication of an obviously emulated run might be the nail in the coffin for me. If you're going to allow emulation then say so. If not, then be consistent.

We should really be asking ourselves what the spirit of speed running is supposed to encompass. In my eyes, it's someone sitting down, flipping on the actual console and TV, grabbing the controller and trying as hard as hell to be the fastest in the world from start to finish. That doesn't mean using emulation.

However, thanks to SDA's sudden implied acceptance of emulation for speed running, I'll be sure to attempt a run or two. And thanks to this new policy, when I submit my Zsnes run of Knights of the Round, I expect I'll be fairly considered now.

Thread title:

So now that we're allowing emulation for speed running (see Virtual Console run for Donkey Kong 64 for more information), can I now make submissions using Snes9x?  And if not, I'd really like to know why.

The Virtual Console is an emulator.  It's not the original system.  It attempts to execute games that were intended for an entirely different architecture.  That is, by definition, emulation.

In fact, to quote Wikipedia's article on the Virtual Console:
"These titles are run in their original forms through [i]software emulation[/i]..."

Yet somehow Virtual Console emulation is more acceptable than other forms of emulation.  And the only reason I can surmise that this is the case is because the Virtual Console is an officially licensed product from a huge corporation as opposed to a fan-made creation.  Why are some emulators acceptable for speed running but others aren't?

It can't be related to the quality of the emulator because that would be an inconsistent standard.  It could easily be argued that Lsnes is far more accurate than the Virtual Console.  And what if a fan were to make an emulator that was 100% accurate?  Would that be allowed as well as the Virtual Console?

In my eyes, this site has been losing its credibility for a while, but this latest publication of an obviously emulated run might be the nail in the coffin for me.  If you're going to allow emulation then say so.  If not, then be consistent.

We should really be asking ourselves what the spirit of speed running is supposed to encompass.  In my eyes, it's someone sitting down, flipping on the [i]actual[/i] console and TV, grabbing the controller and trying as hard as hell to be the fastest in the world from start to finish.  That doesn't mean using emulation.

However, thanks to SDA's sudden implied acceptance of emulation for speed running, I'll be sure to attempt a run or two.  And thanks to this new policy, when I submit my Zsnes run of Knights of the Round, I expect I'll be fairly considered now.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-12-12 10:27:14 am

2015-12-12 10:24:59 am

These are the biggest leaps in logic I have seen in my life.

EDIT: Virtual console has been allowed in speedrunning for a very long time. The policy is that official emulators are allowed from what I understand.

MURPHAGATOR!

2015-12-12 10:30:40 am

Terraffirmative!

Quote from Phyeldmaus:

And the only reason I can surmise that this is the case is because the Virtual Console is an officially licensed product

Congratulations, you solved the mystery.

Phyeldmaus

2015-12-12 10:30:59 am

Quote from TheMG2:

These are the biggest leaps in logic I have seen in my life.

Quote from TheMG2:

These are the biggest leaps in logic I have seen in my life.

EDIT: Virtual console has been allowed in speedrunning for a very long time. The policy is that official emulators are allowed from what I understand.

Can you point me to that policy?

And rather than offering an empty statement, would you care to back that up? Virtual Console is, in fact, an emulator. I don't understand why some emulation is acceptable and others aren't.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-12-12 10:32:19 am

2015-12-12 10:31:34 am

http://speeddemosarchive.com/lang/rules_en.html

Banning official emulators would have far greater consequences that you can imagine.

Phyeldmaus

2015-12-12 10:32:08 am

Quote from MURPHAGATOR!:

Quote from Phyeldmaus:

And the only reason I can surmise that this is the case is because the Virtual Console is an officially licensed product

Congratulations, you solved the mystery.

So that's all it takes? The actual system is then irrelevant?

And with that, SDA's credibility is in the toilet. Well, thank you for the answer.

Phyeldmaus

Edit history:

Phyeldmaus: 2015-12-12 10:33:08 am

2015-12-12 10:32:45 am

Quote from TheMG2:

http://speeddemosarchive.com/lang/rules_en.html

Banning official emulators would have far greater consequences that you can imagine.

Care to elaborate?

EDIT: And thank you for the policy. It does indeed allow for Virtual Console.

TheMG2

2015-12-12 10:39:59 am

Certain games have very limited availability or are otherwise very difficult to get a hold of. In addition, official emulators includes more than just virutal console. It would also include things like DOSBox.

See this for why they are allowed: https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Rules

Also your view of how speedrunning should be is honestly completely irrelevant.

Sir VG

2015-12-12 11:07:46 am

Fucking Weeaboo

Quote from Phyeldmaus:

So that's all it takes? The actual system is then irrelevant?

And with that, SDA's credibility is in the toilet. Well, thank you for the answer.

Well, I've already determined via this one post that you're an idiot. The door is that way. Don't let it hit you on the way out.

Melodia

2015-12-12 01:28:19 pm

Of course, unofficial emulators are used all the time to help in routing and practice. If THAT was banned, 'real' runs worse be far far worse off for it.

rudyxx

2015-12-12 03:23:00 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Emulators allow certain custom abilities that consoles aren't exactly able to perform. For example, with an emulator, you can actually increase or decrease the speed at which the game runs. There are many other things you could actually just write the code for that would speed up your game without altering the game itself. I would assume that fan based emulators aren't allowed because if they were, then you could just write one that specifically allows you to play the game in a faster way than what might be available on console.

esi

2015-12-12 03:25:44 pm

Quote from rudyxx:

Emulators allow certain custom abilities that consoles aren't exactly able to perform. For example, with an emulator, you can actually increase or decrease the speed at which the game runs. There are many other things you could actually just write the code for that would speed up your game without altering the game itself. I would assume that fan based emulators aren't allowed because if they were, then you could just write one that specifically allows you to play the game in a faster way than what might be available on console.

In all fairness, Wii U VC has savestates.

Grygor

2015-12-12 06:18:51 pm

Quote from rudyxx:

Emulators allow certain custom abilities that consoles aren't exactly able to perform. For example, with an emulator, you can actually increase or decrease the speed at which the game runs. There are many other things you could actually just write the code for that would speed up your game without altering the game itself. I would assume that fan based emulators aren't allowed because if they were, then you could just write one that specifically allows you to play the game in a faster way than what might be available on console.

Also in the interest of fairness, VC is not particularly accurate in its emulation.

To some it seems illogical to accept VC runs but reject runs on other, more accurate emulators just because VC is official.

mrprmiller

Edit history:

mrprmiller: 2015-12-12 06:53:32 pm

2015-12-12 06:51:21 pm

Everyday is puppies and sunshine...

Quote:

Of course, unofficial emulators are used all the time to help in routing and practice. If THAT was banned, 'real' runs worse be far far worse off for it.

Totally agree. Not to mention, of course, that it would be completely impossible to enforce practice only on official hardware.

Quote:

To some it seems illogical to accept VC runs but reject runs on other, more accurate emulators just because VC is official.

I've seen it noted in runs done of official hardware but updated consoles are usually noted in the notes or disclaimers about those games.

CardsOfTheHeart

2015-12-13 11:06:26 am

may use a few too many Kappas

I wonder where all this "outrage" (can't think of a better word now) was when various Game Boy runs have been accepted despite being recorded on the Gamecube with the Game Boy Player, which is not actual GBA hardware, thus technically an emulator...

The actual console is an officially licensed way to play the game. Virtual Console is an officially licensed way to play the game. In my mind, they are no different. If there was no timing adjustment for submissions on the Super Game Boy, I would get a Super Game Boy for my GB runs. If I need to get an iQue device to do a faster run, I would do that, too.

Admittedly, it is somewhat arbitrary to restrict runs to official consoles. If I really wanted to, I could gather all of the equipment necessary to playback TASes on the actual console, record the video from the actual console and submit that as a fairly-produced run and hardly anyone would be the wiser. Then again, I don't think I would be the type to get away with that, anyway. Still, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

I wonder where all this "outrage" (can't think of a better word now) was when various Game Boy runs have been accepted despite being recorded on the Gamecube with the Game Boy Player, which is not actual GBA hardware, thus technically an emulator...

The actual console is an officially licensed way to play the game. Virtual Console is an officially licensed way to play the game. In my mind, they are no different. If there was no timing adjustment for submissions on the Super Game Boy, I would get a Super Game Boy for my GB runs. If I need to get an iQue device to do a faster run, I would do that, too.

Admittedly, it is somewhat arbitrary to restrict runs to official consoles. If I really wanted to, I could gather all of the equipment necessary to playback TASes on the actual console, record the video from the actual console and submit that as a fairly-produced run and hardly anyone would be the wiser. Then again, I don't think I would be the type to get away with that, anyway. Still, the line has to be drawn somewhere.

kirbymastah

2015-12-13 12:22:15 pm

<(^_^)>

Quote from CardsOfTheHeart:

I wonder where all this "outrage" (can't think of a better word now) was when various Game Boy runs have been accepted despite being recorded on the Gamecube with the Game Boy Player, which is not actual GBA hardware, thus technically an emulator...

Actually, from my understanding, the GBA player for the gamecube is actual GBA hardware stuffed into the player. The disc basically turns the gamecube into an actual GBA. Though I've also heard things about input delay and such so (shrugs)

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-12-13 12:28:31 pm

2015-12-13 12:26:49 pm

No I'm pretty sure that is not how the Gameboy Player works. The GameCube is not turned into an actual GBA, because otherwise it would be running at the correct framerate, which it does not.

EDIT: The gamecube runs at a slightly faster refresh rate than a gba. To compensate for this, the gameboy player basically drops frames at random.

From my understanding anyways.

kirbymastah

2015-12-13 12:27:42 pm

<(^_^)>

Quote from TheMG2:

No I'm pretty sure that is not how the Gameboy Player works. The GameCube is not turned into an actual GBA, because otherwise it would be running at the correct framerate, which it does not.

Yeah well IDK haha. I really wouldn't know, I'm just going off of what I've heard Tongue

MarmotSRL

2015-12-13 12:33:47 pm

Quote from Phyeldmaus:

This hand-wringing concern trolling from a zero-day account is very, very credible.

TheMG2

Edit history:

TheMG2: 2015-12-13 12:39:57 pm

2015-12-13 12:37:49 pm

EDIT: I think this article has good information on the gb player: https://endrift.com/2015/03/24/gbpp/

Grygor

2015-12-13 12:44:44 pm

The SGB and GBP devices do, indeed, have actual GB/GBA hardware inside (even if the SGB 1's timing crystal frequency is a little off), with the audio and video output hardware replaced with what is essentially a capture device that converts the data into a format usable by the host console.
The software on the host console just reads controller input and feeds it to the GB(A) hardware, while dropping/duplicating video frames as needed to compensate for the difference between GB/GBA and SNES/GC frame rates.

tl;dr SGB/GBP are not emulators at all.

kirbymastah

2015-12-13 12:45:26 pm

<(^_^)>

I like that this thread turned from a shitpost thread by a shitposter to an actual discussion on something not 100% related