Crash Bandicoot 2 (ANY%) - May 31st, 2013

2013-05-31 08:22:02 am

1-Up!

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/CrashBandicoot2.html

Crash Bandicoot 2: Cortex Strikes Back (Any %) (Single Segment) (pal) (psx)

Verifier Responses

Quote:

Audio quality fine. Video quality is fine. No cheating detected in this run.

Final verdict: accept

Quote:

Audio: Pass
Video: Pass
Cheating: None found

There's not a lot to comment on in this run, some smaller hiccups in every warp room, and played it a bit safe in warp room 5, but nothing of it is serious enough to warrant a rejection.

Verdict: Accept.

Quote:

First of all, Accept. Great run overall, no major mistakes. The runners timing is accurate. Video/Audio is fine. Congrats to Rabid"ElectronBowler"Wombat. I am a sexy man beast according to the runners comments.

Quote:

Quality is good, the run is amazing, only some yolo strats here and there could shave off a few seconds. Only one 2-second-death caused by a glitch, so this run is just amazing. Category for this run should be set to 'Any% No Game Over Abuse' as well. That is community demand, seeing as 'Any%' follows some different rules.
Run accepted and timed at 46:35.

Quote:

Audio/Video are fine. No cheating. The run is very hard to flaw. Accept.
The verifier above has a very valid point though, this isn't an any% run, it's any% no GO abuse. The actual any% time is a good 4 minutes faster due to GOs and we don't want to cause confusion.

Decision: Accept

Congratulations to Matthew 'ElectronAvenue!'

Thread title:

Game Page: http://speeddemosarchive.com/CrashBandicoot2.html

Crash Bandicoot 2: Cortex Strikes Back (Any %) (Single Segment) (pal) (psx)

[b]Verifier Responses[/b]

[quote]Audio quality fine. Video quality is fine. No cheating detected in this run.

Final verdict: accept [/quote]

[quote]Audio: Pass
Video: Pass
Cheating: None found

There's not a lot to comment on in this run, some smaller hiccups in every warp room, and played it a bit safe in warp room 5, but nothing of it is serious enough to warrant a rejection.

Verdict: Accept.[/quote]

[quote]First of all, Accept. Great run overall, no major mistakes. The runners timing is accurate. Video/Audio is fine. Congrats to Rabid"ElectronBowler"Wombat. I am a sexy man beast according to the runners comments.[/quote]

[quote]Quality is good, the run is amazing, only some yolo strats here and there could shave off a few seconds. Only one 2-second-death caused by a glitch, so this run is just amazing. Category for this run should be set to 'Any% No Game Over Abuse' as well. That is community demand, seeing as 'Any%' follows some different rules. 
Run accepted and timed at 46:35.[/quote]

[quote]Audio/Video are fine. No cheating. The run is very hard to flaw. Accept.
The verifier above has a very valid point though, this isn't an any% run, it's any% no GO abuse. The actual any% time is a good 4 minutes faster due to GOs and we don't want to cause confusion.[/quote]

[b]Decision:[/b] Accept

Congratulations to Matthew 'ElectronAvenue!'

ElectronAvenue

2013-05-31 09:35:57 am

SolarBowler

Thanks to the verifiers and indeed the category is: Any% (No Game Over Abuse)

UraniumAnchor

2013-05-31 11:38:01 am

Not a walrus

So what's the difference between that and "deathless"? Since this run apparently still has a death in it?

Equinox

2013-05-31 09:16:48 pm

Obsessicus Parrotus

Congrats electron!

ElectronAvenue

2013-05-31 11:26:00 pm

SolarBowler

This category was actually the Any% for a long time. Game Over Abuse is a glitch/trick thingo that cuts off several minutes and changes the routing of the game completely. Basically it keeps a crystal you've collected in a level after you game over, then you complete a level normally and you get the crystal from the level you completed and the one you game over'd in. There was actually a bit of a debate with the crash runners over this being a real category, but it was decided this qualified as one, sorta like the 16/70 star categories in sm64. If you wanna see the current WR for the regular Any% then it's available here: http://www.twitch.tv/mrnojojojo/c/2339251 So pretty much know this game has 4 accepted categories: Any% (Glitched/Major Skips) the one with the bouncing on the box for 3 mins that no one likes, Any%, Any% (No Game Over Abuse) and 100%.

UraniumAnchor

2013-06-01 12:00:17 am

Not a walrus

So this would fall under 'deathless' but your run has a death in it. Eh. I'm not gonna yell too much but when you start coming up with unusual categories it's good to get them cleared first. (Game Over Abuse would just be "death abuse").

Camewel

Edit history:

Camewel: 2013-06-02 07:54:39 am

2013-06-02 07:53:36 am

It's not death abuse, there's a distinct difference between "deathless" and "no Game Over abuse".

The main objective of this game is to collect the crystals from each level and then finish the level. There is a glitch in the game though, where you can collect a crystal in a level then repeatedly kill yourself to get a Game Over. This takes you back to the warp room with the crystal still in your possession, meaning you skip the end of many levels. This glitch obviously isn't as fun to watch or do (no offense pete) as actually beating every level, but is much faster, hence the two categories.

Apologies if this post comes across as rude, I understand it's a weird game and you'd have difficulty understanding all it's quirks if you've never played it. Wink

UraniumAnchor

2013-06-02 10:09:12 am

Not a walrus

Doesn't really sound like there's enough difference to warrant us hosting them as separate categories, is my point. Four categories for one game is already a lot.

moooh

Edit history:

moooh: 2013-06-02 11:13:46 am

2013-06-02 11:10:47 am

Exoray

The game over thing is indeed already covered by the generic deaths category (you either fully utilize deaths to save as much time as possible, or you don't die at all) and we don't really want category bloat. Comparing to SM64 won't do you any good since that game is an exceptional case with a huge runner community.

At the same time, this game is one of those where it's so easy to die that a death would more or less be expected. Since that is the case, going for a run for the regular category (no deaths) would be pretty frustrating since it's so easy to accidently die which then would immediately invalidate the run in that case.

Given the nature of this game I'd say that it could be fine for us to separate the two deaths categories. What we don't want though is having different categories where runs for the most part look and play exactly the same. 4 minutes in a 47 minute run isn't a whole lot of difference over all. But at the same time it seems that this is what the runner community for this game does.

The game over thing is indeed already covered by the generic deaths category (you either fully utilize deaths to save as much time as possible, or you don't die at all) and we don't really want category bloat. Comparing to SM64 won't do you any good since that game is an exceptional case with a huge runner community.

At the same time, this game is one of those where it's so easy to die that a death would more or less be expected. Since that is the case, going for a run for the regular category (no deaths) would be pretty frustrating since it's so easy to accidently die which then would immediately invalidate the run in that case.

Given the nature of this game I'd say that it could be fine for us to separate the two deaths categories. What we don't want though is having different categories where runs for the most part look and play exactly the same. 4 minutes in a 47 minute run isn't a whole lot of difference over all. But at the same time it seems that this is what the runner community for this game does.

Onin

2013-06-02 11:30:20 am

Is there a "no death abuse" category aside the "no game over abuse" one? If not, isn't the latter just the same as the former?

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2013-06-02 11:33:05 am

2013-06-02 11:32:22 am

Not a walrus

It doesn't sound like there is, but at the same time we can't really call the run deathless either since there's a death in it. I don't think it's a problem per se, just need to decide how to label it. We'll probably just leave it unlabeled and whatever theoretical Game Over abuse run comes in will just be labeled "with deaths".

moooh

2013-06-02 11:37:44 am

Exoray

Basically it comes down to this:

Either
we don't make any changes and this run goes up with the "with deaths"-tag since it contains a death. This means that this run can be obsoleted by someone that better utilizes deaths to save more time.
Or
We allow a separation of the deaths categories thus creating a new category that may look very similar due to there not being large differences between the two.

Camewel

2013-06-02 11:47:33 am

You could label it under "any% no skips" because the Game Over abuse run skips half of some levels.

UraniumAnchor

2013-06-02 11:47:53 am

Not a walrus

The glitch run is already the "skips" category, though.

Camewel

2013-06-02 11:52:04 am

I guess a Game Over abuse run wouldn't be suitable for SDA then? I'm not sure.

UraniumAnchor

2013-06-02 11:53:27 am

Not a walrus

No, it would be, but I'm saying "deathless" and "no game over abuse" is probably too similar to be considered separate categories. For an example of a similar situation, Beavis and Butthead for the Genesis doesn't have a "bad ending" category because the differences between the two are minimal, even though the bad ending run is technically faster.

Camewel

2013-06-02 11:58:44 am

There isn't a deathless category though. There's only no Game Over abuse.

I have no name

2013-06-02 11:59:24 am

Obscure games ftw

There's 25 levels (and 5 bosses) and in the current route for with game over abuse a majority of (IIRC) 7 levels end up skipped via abusing game overs to collect the crystals from shorter levels.

The time difference may only be 4 and a half minutes, but the difference in playing time is closer to 10. Now, you could argue the glitched any% run is too similar due to the bosses being the same, and that's a further 7 minutes. So, of the time spent in levels there is some overlap, but not unlike the overlap you would see in some other games any% vs. 100% or any% vs. low%.

The overall mindset going in is also a bit different, as in game over abuse you deliberately have to avoid lives to game over quicker.

There is no good way to categorize this under current SDA rules, though just putting up "no game over abuse" as a one-shot thing for this game seems to be the best option for this run, as a sloppily played/routed GO abuse run could beat this. I would understand not wanting to make too many categories for a game, though in that case I would say that more people run any% no GO abuse than any% w/ GO abuse (more people have done glitched any% than any% with game over abuse, for what it's worth).

Quote from UraniumAnchor:

Beavis and Butthead for the Genesis doesn't have a "bad ending" category because the differences between the two are minimal, even though the bad ending run is technically faster.

Didn't Myst go through the same thing? In this case we have the longer, more substantial, more interesting (from a play perspective, from routing it's the other) and the category with more interest behind it in the community.

The Spyro/Crash running community has a set of leaderboards. This link links to the Crash 2 page, so you can see I'm not pulling these statistics out of nowhere.

There's 25 levels (and 5 bosses) and in the current route for with game over abuse a majority of (IIRC) 7 levels end up skipped via abusing game overs to collect the crystals from shorter levels.

The time difference may only be 4 and a half minutes, but the difference in playing time is closer to 10.  Now, you could argue the glitched any% run is too similar due to the bosses being the same, and that's a further 7 minutes.  So, of the time spent in levels there is some overlap, but not unlike the overlap you would see in some other games any% vs. 100% or any% vs. low%.

The overall mindset going in is also a bit different, as in game over abuse you deliberately have to avoid lives to game over quicker.

There is no good way to categorize this under current SDA rules, though just putting up "no game over abuse" as a one-shot thing for this game seems to be the best option for this run, as a sloppily played/routed GO abuse run could beat this.  I would understand not wanting to make too many categories for a game, though in that case I would say that more people run any% no GO abuse than any% w/ GO abuse (more people have done glitched any% than any% with game over abuse, for what it's worth).

[quote="UraniumAnchor"]Beavis and Butthead for the Genesis doesn't have a "bad ending" category because the differences between the two are minimal, even though the bad ending run is technically faster.[/quote]
Didn't Myst go through the same thing?  In this case we have the longer, more substantial, more interesting (from a play perspective, from routing it's the other) and the category with more interest behind it in the community.

[url=https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AhkCyoaiK2XmdFZsRVZFTlVjUjdiUnJKZURfS0hpYlE#gid=13]The Spyro/Crash running community has a set of leaderboards.  This link links to the Crash 2 page, so you can see I'm not pulling these statistics out of nowhere.[/url]

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2013-06-02 12:03:09 pm

UraniumAnchor: 2013-06-02 12:01:12 pm

2013-06-02 12:00:54 pm

Not a walrus

Quote from Camewel:

There isn't a deathless category though. There's only no Game Over abuse.

Except that in this run, deaths waste time, do they not? So that would make "Deathless" the same as "No Game Over abuse".

Edit: Looking at that table, it really looks like we're just arguing over labels here more than anything else. Honestly if this run didn't have an accidental death in it I don't think we'd be having this conversation at all.

moooh

2013-06-02 12:18:54 pm

Exoray

Yeah this feels like it very much turned into a label discussion. For those that seems to have missed it, the point made by UA was that there's already a deaths category and that having a separation of "with deaths" and "with more deaths" (as the GO would in that case be) doesn't really make sense.

In any case, labels aside, I still say it's fine to host both categories given how easy it is to die unintentionally in this game. For games where this was not the case we would definitely stick with just 1 deaths category.

Radman

Edit history:

Radman: 2013-06-02 03:54:34 pm

2013-06-02 03:51:24 pm

For Fun! For GLORY!!

So there's actually a category for basically playing all 25 normal levels as they were intended? Because I've been practicing this, as well as DKC3 (both any and 105%) on my emulator, but I know those won't fly. If so, I bet I could get a good run on it. I just need a console now.

ThaRixer

2013-06-02 06:57:07 pm

Dog

I agree with moooh. The reason game over abuse was made in the first place was when game over abuse was found, i didnt even want to run the game anymore because i felt like game overing on purpose takes away skill from the speedrun. I basicly demanded a category separation, and it took a couple of months before we decided to get around to it. Just to clearify, the amount of people who race Any% on SRL is none. The amount of people that race any% no go abuse on SRL is a hell of a lot.