Contra

2013-10-15 09:12:48 pm

My thoughts when I see a "record" on emulator: "Cool, I wonder who has the real record."

Instead of trying to argue all of these "what if" scenarios concerning different emulators, whether the emulator time is equal to console, keyboards, controllers, controller adaptors, macros, and whatnot, it seems like a person could remove all doubt and remove that asterisk next to their name and their time by playing on a console. If someone is serious enough about something to pursue having a "world record" in it, I would think that it would be worth the small investment of the console, cart, and cheap capture card. If someone does not have the means or does not care enough to play on a legit console with an actual cart and a cheap capture device, that is their burden and not the burden of everyone else.

Personally, I'd take it one step further and not include emulated times at all on leaderboards, but that would create all kinds of whining from the group that refuses to play on a console and then blames everyone else for their predicament. God-forbid people actually play on an actual console and an actual cart in order for their "records" to be taken seriously. Emulators are great for practice.

/rant

My thoughts when I see a "record" on emulator: "Cool, I wonder who has the real record."

Instead of trying to argue all of these "what if" scenarios concerning different emulators, whether the emulator time is equal to console, keyboards, controllers, controller adaptors, macros, and whatnot, it seems like a person could remove all doubt and remove that asterisk next to their name and their time by playing on a console.  If someone is serious enough about something to pursue having a "world record" in it, I would think that it would be worth the small investment of the console, cart, and cheap capture card.  If someone does not have the means or does not care enough to play on a legit console with an actual cart and a cheap capture device, that is their burden and not the burden of everyone else.

Personally, I'd take it one step further and not include emulated times at all on leaderboards, but that would create all kinds of whining from the group that refuses to play on a console and then blames everyone else for their predicament.  God-forbid people actually play on an actual console and an actual cart in order for their "records" to be taken seriously.  Emulators are great for [u]practice[/u].

/rant

garik16

2013-10-15 09:49:11 pm

FTR, the proper thing to do would be for someone to check what the effect is of emulation on the game compared to the NES.

But regardless, given the small community there is around Contra, I don't think you guys should separate the lists - just note the hardware. Encourage people to use console if they can - would love to see TMR do that just so that he could submit since he has new strats, but i understand the technical limitations - but more people running is a good thing and I'd hesitate to discourage it.

Remz

2013-10-15 09:50:21 pm

It's funny because nobody here can prove any difference between emu and console. Hurblat you said that the difference is not the accuracy but the controller. I used same controller (original NES controller) so why another category then? Anyway, I'll stop the discussion here because this is a Contra thread. So I'll play with whatever I want and won't care about leaderboards. Smiley

garik16

2013-10-15 09:51:23 pm

Quote from Remz:

It's funny because nobody here can prove any difference between emu and console. Hurblat you said that the difference is not the accuracy but the controller. I used same controller (original NES controller) so why another category then? Anyway, I'll stop the discussion here because this is a Contra thread. So I'll play with whatever I want and won't care about leaderboards. Smiley

Well this is why I said someone should check the effect. It's certainly possible there is less lag. But again, someone should check that before assuming!

Hurblat

2013-10-15 09:56:03 pm

I agree that it should be researched. Until we know the whole story though, I think it's best to separate the two.

In the end it is up to the community. I'm only updating the leaderboard.

Remz

2013-10-15 09:56:45 pm

For my time, it's really up to you Hurblat. If it's one category and I have a mention that I play on Nestopia with NES Controller I'll be proud to be part of that, but if it's another ranking and another category like it is, I would like my time to be removed. Thanks!

Heidrage

2013-10-16 01:51:39 am

Willing to teach you the impossible

I expect to gain more hate for this...

To be perfectly honest, what does it matter if they are separate? Why throw a fit? What is wrong with having the information clearly understand able. Let's do it your way, all times from all categories in one list. Any%, Low%, Fire%, Coop, TAS, and anything else I missed. That way no one can say they are being treated unfairly.

This board is not an official standing. If you want the official boards, please go here (and even that is subjective). This is simply Hurblat single handedly providing his time for the community's benefit. He went above and beyond for a community that consisted of 4 people and make it appealing for others to join in. Yes, please give him more grief. He deserves it.

The SDA argument: This is an SDA forum. SDA does not accept anything other then original hardware or official emulators. So in that sense no emulator runs should be on this list at all.

What is the difference in emu vs consoles? It is a known fact that emulators do not calculate lag the same as consoles do (there is less). Some games also have differences in how they function (I dont know of any for Contra, but that does not mean there is not any at all).

Me salty: LOL. I gave tmr props for his play in his stream a few times. I am happy that someone is pushing the game further. My personal goals are for the SDA Contra page. So if it is not done on console, frankly I dont care. I am not saying his time does not beat mine, I am just saying that unless it is on console, then there is no competition as far as I see it. I started playing again because enough new stuff was found that I felt a new submission was needed. I did the same for Super C once the stage 8 glitch was shown in a tas. That game has NO COMMUNITY besides me. But I still did it. So please knock it off.

As far as my thoughts on TMR, he has some of the best movements I have seen for anyone besides me and Frezy. Movement is about 95% of a speedrun, and mashing is the other 5%. I have an issue with his mashing. I am not doubting his skills as a player. I also never mashed on a keyboard before so I dont now the difference if there is any. I have been told by Mayor K that it did help him when he tried it on his macbook. Before K told me (2 days ago), I was thinking that perhaps TMR was using an third party program or something. But since I received that info from K, I dropped it. I am not doubting anything about TMR's runs. My only issue now is that he he not in direct competition with me (please start on console).

I expect to gain more hate for this...

To be perfectly honest, what does it matter if they are separate? Why throw a fit? What is wrong with having the information clearly understand able. Let's do it your way, all times from all categories in one list. Any%, Low%, Fire%, Coop, TAS, and anything else I missed. That way no one can say they are being treated unfairly.

This board is not an official standing. If you want the official boards, [url=http://www.twingalaxies.com/scoreboard/contra/nintendo-entertainment-system/53763/]please go here[/url] (and even that is subjective). This is simply Hurblat single handedly providing his time for the community's benefit. He went above and beyond for a community that consisted of 4 people and make it appealing for others to join in. Yes, please give him more grief. He deserves it.

The SDA argument: This is an SDA forum. SDA does not accept anything other then original hardware or official emulators. So in that sense no emulator runs should be on this list at all.

What is the difference in emu vs consoles? It is a known fact that emulators do not calculate lag the same as consoles do (there is less). Some games also have differences in how they function (I dont know of any for Contra, but that does not mean there is not any at all).

Me salty: LOL. I gave tmr props for his play in his stream a few times. I am happy that someone is pushing the game further. My personal goals are for the SDA Contra page. So if it is not done on console, frankly I dont care. I am not saying his time does not beat mine, I am just saying that unless it is on console, then there is no competition as far as I see it. I started playing again because enough new stuff was found that I felt a new submission was needed. I did the same for Super C once the stage 8 glitch was shown in a tas. That game has NO COMMUNITY besides me. But I still did it. So please knock it off.

As far as my thoughts on TMR, he has some of the best movements I have seen for anyone besides me and Frezy. Movement is about 95% of a speedrun, and mashing is the other 5%. I have an issue with his mashing. I am not doubting his skills as a player. I also never mashed on a keyboard before so I dont now the difference if there is any. I have been told by Mayor K that it did help him when he tried it on his macbook. Before K told me (2 days ago), I was thinking that perhaps TMR was using an third party program or something. But since I received that info from K, I dropped it. I am not doubting anything about TMR's runs. My only issue now is that he he not in direct competition with me (please start on console).

Remz

2013-10-16 02:50:00 am

Hate? I don't know where you see hate from me. Hurblat wanted to know our opinions so i gave mine.

Quote from Heidrage:

What is the difference in emu vs consoles? It is a known fact that emulators do not calculate lag the same as consoles do (there is less).

Cool so I might learn something here. It should be easy for you to show an example in Contra. You all say it's not comparable and i've never seen anyone showing an actual difference, ever. Man there was a guy with a japanese record in the leaderboard and me and TMR on another ranking Cheesy

haha Explain me how it is more comparable. If it's because it's SDA rules, no prob just remove us from there, this is not a big problem :P.

TheMexicanRunner

Edit history:

TheMexicanRunner: 2013-10-16 05:14:04 am

TheMexicanRunner: 2013-10-16 05:12:39 am

TheMexicanRunner: 2013-10-16 05:09:31 am

2013-10-16 05:02:48 am

Fighting like a Warrior

Wow I am impressed of what is going on in here, since Hurblat ask for opinions here is mine, to be honest i think the times should be together (with the specs of emu/console the way it was before) but is decision of the community, for example in megaman games (http://megamanrta.wikia.com/wiki/Mega_Man_RTA_Wiki) they really don't care if the people played on emu or console what matters for them is pushing the time down, and i think that is the way it should be. Anyway for me it doesn't matter if they are separated too. I am not going to be offended or anything related. As PJ said: "It's up to the runners/viewers to interpret the leaderboards"

Another reason to keep the times together in the leaderboard is that when I think what would have happen if they would have been separated since the beginning? I think I would't have ever tried to attempt for the WR (Best Time known for some people), seeing my time next to the rest of the runners it was really motivating to push my times down. Also as someone said earlier in the post "the contra community is very small" and separating the leader board makes it look even smaller. That is my opinion and i will agree any decision taken by the community.

I really appreciate and I am thankful to Hurblat for all the effort he has done to keep this Contra forum updated and for keeping me motivated to push my times down.

This is a great place and i don't think we should be attacking each other, we should learn from everybody runs no matter if is emu or not, I understand this is an SDA forum but since there is not wiki of Contra this is the closest place for it. So let's keep gaming, learning and sharing...

Wow I am impressed of what is going on in here, since Hurblat ask for opinions here is mine, to be honest i think the times should be together (with the specs of emu/console the way it was before) but is decision of the community, for example in megaman games (http://megamanrta.wikia.com/wiki/Mega_Man_RTA_Wiki) they really don't care if the people played on emu or console what matters for them is pushing the time down, and i think that is the way it should be. Anyway for me it doesn't matter if they are separated too. I am not going to be offended or anything related. As PJ said: "It's up to the runners/viewers to interpret the leaderboards"

Another reason to keep the times together in the leaderboard is that when I think what would have happen if they would have been separated since the beginning? I think I would't have ever tried to attempt for the WR (Best Time known for some people), seeing my time next to the rest of the runners it was really motivating to push my times down. Also as someone said earlier in the post "the contra community is very small" and separating the leader board makes it look even smaller. That is my opinion and i will agree any decision taken by the community.

I really appreciate and I am thankful to Hurblat for all the effort he has done to keep this Contra forum updated and for keeping me motivated to push my times down.

This is a great place and i don't think we should be attacking each other, we should learn from everybody runs no matter if is emu or not, I understand this is an SDA forum but since there is not wiki of Contra this is the closest place for it. So let's keep gaming, learning and sharing...

Remz

2013-10-16 12:14:03 pm

Very well said TMR. I share the exact same opinion. I was going for a PB yesterday before I saw the separated boards and decided to play other games because it seems like I can't play on emulator to "compete" anymore so there is no point for me. I started to teach my friend to speedrun it and he is now getting decent but he plays on emulator too (he also has the console) so I guess we will never see him here too. So peace guys and hopefully it will be back like it was but as TMR and Hurblat said, maybe it's up to the community to decide.

Philosophical DK

2013-10-16 02:20:02 pm

I have remained out of this debate as I feel the conversation is going in circles. At this point, I think everyone has said their piece. Going forward, why don't we just talk about game play only and stick to running this game to sub 9:30...

DK28

2013-10-16 10:08:07 pm

General Kong - Bullets and Bananas

11:58 on low % Hurblat.

Horrible waterfall, died on the flame jump and three cycle boss. Got the Base 2 boss glitch. Energy Zone boss wouldn't stop jumping at all. Worst spawning I've ever seen, always in groups of three, from stage 1. I think Heid's Super C cart is contaminating my collection...

Bonus note. I tried the hangar pause glitch on the last set of claws for the hell of it. I literally got it first try.

MKwizard

2013-10-17 10:45:25 am

Man what a bunch of bullshit. None of you pathetic fools are the real deal here. Matt Turk has the world record on Twin Galaxies. He is the true Contra champ, while you guys are just chumps. Emulator is cheating and the rest of you claim to play on console but don't even submit your times to TG which is the only world records site. You guys probly can't even compete with the best Japanese player, Saobe Chen.

zallard1

2013-10-17 12:48:02 pm

B+Left, Left, Up+B, ★

Quote from MKwizard:

Man what a bunch of bullshit. None of you pathetic fools are the real deal here. Matt Turk has the world record on Twin Galaxies. He is the true Contra champ, while you guys are just chumps. Emulator is cheating and the rest of you claim to play on console but don't even submit your times to TG which is the only world records site. You guys probly can't even compete with the best Japanese player, Saobe Chen.

And I thought this thread couldn't get any better Roll Eyes

Carcinogen

Edit history:

Carcinogen: 2013-10-17 05:43:47 pm

Carcinogen: 2013-10-17 05:43:25 pm

Carcinogen: 2013-10-17 05:43:24 pm

2013-10-17 05:41:00 pm

This thread claimed by Walter Day.

Welp, time to retire.

P.S. - Hey Heidman, will you do a tutorial for the first game when you get a chance?

Heidrage

2013-10-17 05:58:46 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Quote from Carcinogen:

P.S. - Hey Heidman, will you do a tutorial for the first game when you get a chance?

Patashu

2013-10-17 06:05:09 pm

Someone with a NESBot could play back runs on different emulators of Contra on the real hardware and see how well it syncs up.
-Maybe it won't sync up at all (emulator inaccuracies? effects of uninitialized RAM being different?)
-Maybe it will be identical except for lag frames (then you can time the run on console vs how long it took in the emulator and try and find a rule for how much slower/faster the run on emulator should be considered when comparing it to console)
-Maybe it would be completely identical (best case - establish this emulator as the gold standard of contra emu WR attempts)

In the third case, it's not necessary to list emu vs console except as a curiosity - instead what should be listed is what controller was used (NES pad, keyboard, fightstick, other?) - but what controller you use shouldn't affect the legitimacy of your WR (except for things like SDA rulesets). After all, no one disputes Kryssstal has the WR in ALttP or Lee_sda has the WR in Yoshi's Island warps, even though they both did their runs emu and on top of that Kryssstal plays using a keyboard.

jm2c

Someone with a NESBot could play back runs on different emulators of Contra on the real hardware and see how well it syncs up.
-Maybe it won't sync up at all (emulator inaccuracies? effects of uninitialized RAM being different?)
-Maybe it will be identical except for lag frames (then you can time the run on console vs how long it took in the emulator and try and find a rule for how much slower/faster the run on emulator should be considered when comparing it to console)
-Maybe it would be completely identical (best case - establish this emulator as the gold standard of contra emu WR attempts)

In the third case, it's not necessary to list emu vs console except as a curiosity - instead what should be listed is what controller was used (NES pad, keyboard, fightstick, other?) - but what controller you use shouldn't affect the legitimacy of your WR (except for things like SDA rulesets). After all, no one disputes Kryssstal has the WR in ALttP or Lee_sda has the WR in Yoshi's Island warps, even though they both did their runs emu and on top of that Kryssstal plays using a keyboard.

jm2c

Heidrage

2013-10-17 06:44:52 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Does ALttP and YI gain from frame perfect execution (base stage rhythm) or turbo (maintaining rhythm)? I dont know enough about either game to answer myself.

Deuceler

2013-10-17 06:58:45 pm

SPEEDruns not SAFEruns

Okay, after reading the recent developments on the thread I can say with 100% confidence I will no longer be speed running Contra. The amount of pretentious BULLSHIT that is happening in the thread is unbelievable. It's not one person in particular, it is coming from both sides of the argument. My main point is speed running is supposed to be done as quickly as possible, regardless of what is being used (i.e. OoT). You shouldn't split the leaderboard, but note what it was played on - if you can prove WITHOUT A DOUBT, something is faster or gives an unfair advantage split them up. Until proven otherwise we should treat them the same. If you don't want TMR at the top of the leaderboard, beat his time.

Deln

Edit history:

Deln: 2013-10-17 08:15:01 pm

Deln: 2013-10-17 07:02:40 pm

2013-10-17 07:00:24 pm

Quote from Deuceler:

Okay, after reading the recent developments on the thread I can say with 100% confidence I will no longer be speed running Contra. The amount of pretentious BULLSHIT that is happening in the thread is unbelievable. It's not one person in particular, it is coming from both sides of the argument. My main point is speed running is supposed to be done as quickly as possible, regardless of what is being used (i.e. OoT). You shouldn't split the leaderboard, but note what it was played on - if you can prove WITHOUT A DOUBT, something is faster or gives an unfair advantage split them up. Until proven otherwise we should treat them the same. If you don't want TMR at the top of the leaderboard, beat his time.

this, also this saden me to the point of not even wanting to learn this game anymore

edit:cart is glitched, gg

PJ

2013-10-17 07:02:58 pm

Is PJ

Quote from Heidrage:

Does ALttP and YI gain from frame perfect execution (base stage rhythm) or turbo (maintaining rhythm)? I dont know enough about either game to answer myself.

Every speed game benefits from frame perfect execution...

mike89

2013-10-17 07:39:42 pm

SEGA Junkie

Why should the opinions of other people affect your willingness to run a game? In the end, speedrunning is inherently about proving your own mastery of a game. Anything else is incidental.

garik16

2013-10-17 08:04:58 pm

Let's not overreact people. No one is saying TMR's run isn't legitimate. But these are the sort of things that people wonder about when the differences in timing are merely a second.

Besides, the point of running is supposed to be going faster - who cares what others think?

Heidrage

Edit history:

Heidrage: 2013-10-17 08:44:35 pm

2013-10-17 08:31:41 pm

Willing to teach you the impossible

Quote from PJ:

Quote from Heidrage:

Does ALttP and YI gain from frame perfect execution (base stage rhythm) or turbo (maintaining rhythm)? I dont know enough about either game to answer myself.

Every speed game benefits from frame perfect execution...

I ment to the extent that the base stages provide. Each room suffers seconds if the player cant get a rhythm going. ALttP has wall pumping and that is all I can think of with my limited knowledge of the game.

Edit: I agree speedrunning is an individual hobby and that it should not matter what others think. But not all runners do this strictly for themselves. Conversing with others about a game is fun. Racing is fun. Bouncing ideas off others is fun. Cant do any of that solo. Pushing a game to its limits sometimes is not enough for motivation for a runner to play a game. I had a hard time grasping that for a while. I hated how so many runners swarmed to the popular games like OoT and SM64. But after this small glimpse of what a real community is like, I understand now.

I believe the times should be separate, but I dont see why others are going crazy over the separation. A faster time is a faster time. But what does it matter where that time is placed on a table? How does the table lay out effect speedrunners?

I am also on the side of not playing until the community makes a choice and stops bickering. If all else fails, let's just make a poll or something.

[quote="PJ"][quote="Heidrage"]Does ALttP and YI gain from frame perfect execution (base stage rhythm) or turbo (maintaining rhythm)? I dont know enough about either game to answer myself.[/quote]

Every speed game benefits from frame perfect execution...

[/quote]
I ment to the extent that the base stages provide. Each room suffers seconds if the player cant get a rhythm going. ALttP has wall pumping and that is all I can think of with my limited knowledge of the game.

Edit: I agree speedrunning is an individual hobby and that it should not matter what others think. But not all runners do this strictly for themselves. Conversing with others about a game is fun. Racing is fun. Bouncing ideas off others is fun. Cant do any of that solo. Pushing a game to its limits sometimes is not enough for motivation for a runner to play a game. I had a hard time grasping that for a while. I hated how so many runners swarmed to the popular games like OoT and SM64. But after this small glimpse of what a real community is like, I understand now.

I believe the times should be separate, but I dont see why others are going crazy over the separation. A faster time is a faster time. But what does it matter where that time is placed on a table? How does the table lay out effect speedrunners?

I am also on the side of not playing until the community makes a choice and stops bickering. If all else fails, let's just make a poll or something.

Deln

Edit history:

Deln: 2013-10-17 09:15:28 pm

Deln: 2013-10-17 09:15:20 pm

2013-10-17 09:09:48 pm

Quote from Heidrage:

Edit: I agree speedrunning is an individual hobby and that it should not matter what others think. But not all runners do this strictly for themselves. Conversing with others about a game is fun. Racing is fun. Bouncing ideas off others is fun. Cant do any of that solo. Pushing a game to its limits sometimes is not enough for motivation for a runner to play a game. I had a hard time grasping that for a while. I hated how so many runners swarmed to the popular games like OoT and SM64. But after this small glimpse of what a real community is like, I understand now.

i like to be involved into the game community when i actually run/plan to run a certain game, right now this community is separated in two, id rather wait this issue is settled before involving myself in this game/community