Categories discussion -.-;;

Edit history:

KD: 2006-04-09 10:10:00 am

2006-04-08 11:50:51 am

Jealousy™

I'd like to make a poll out of this, but apparently I can not, so yeah. I'm just looking for public opinion on this.

[Edit] The options are:

This split should be made.

This split should not be made, and here's why:

Differentiate between the following:

Does not use glitches/bugs for seguence breaks or skips (no gameplay violations)

Does use glitches/bugs for sequence breaks or skips (violates gameplay)

[Edit2]

Every rule has a purpose. I feel that I did not clarify why I want to differentiate between runs that do sequence break with the use of glitches and runs that don't.

It's not so much the aesthetics of the rule itself, that I'd like to 'add this category', but the purpose of it:

To me, speedrunning is about skill. I don't know what it's to you, most likely something similar, if not I just gave you a purpose. It's not any longer about who can play and beat the game. It's about who can play best and beat the time. The videos on this site show off tremendous amounts of skill.

For a good run, the following things are (among others) required:

Skill
Planning
Trick finding

As the situation is now, someone can play horribly, plan horribly, discover nor use any tricks, but still beat the time.

Because he used a glitch to skip most of the game.

IMO, and most of you probably agree with me, this shouldn't happen. However, since these videos can still be fun to watch, can still show off skill, can still require planning and can still beat the time, they should be allowed.

Therefore I plead for these kinds of runs, runs that use glitches or bugs to sequence break, to have their seperate category. So that they may flourish, yet not harm the skilled runs that did complete the entire quest.

Thread title:

I'd like to make a poll out of this, but apparently I can not, so yeah. I'm just looking for public opinion on this.

[Edit] The options are:

[i]This split should be made.

This split should not be made, and here's why:[/i]

[b]Differentiate between the following: [/b]

Does not use glitches/bugs for seguence breaks or skips (no gameplay violations)

Does use glitches/bugs for sequence breaks or skips (violates gameplay)

[Edit2]

Every rule has a purpose. I feel that I did not clarify why I want to differentiate between runs that do sequence break with the use of glitches and runs that don't.

It's not so much the aesthetics of the rule itself, that I'd like to 'add this category', but the purpose of it:

To me, speedrunning is about skill. I don't know what it's to you, most likely something similar, if not I just gave you a purpose. It's not any longer about who can play and beat the game. It's about who can play best and beat the time. The videos on this site show off tremendous amounts of skill.

For a good run, the following things are (among others) required:

[i]Skill
Planning
Trick finding[/i]

As the situation is now, someone can play horribly, plan horribly, discover nor use any tricks, but still beat the time.

Because he used a glitch to skip most of the game.

IMO, and most of you probably agree with me, this shouldn't happen. However, since these videos can still be fun to watch, can still show off skill, can still require planning and can still beat the time, they should be allowed.

Therefore I plead for these kinds of runs, runs that use glitches or bugs to sequence break, to have their seperate category. So that they may flourish, yet not harm the skilled runs that did complete the entire quest.

Psychochild

Edit history:

Psychochild: 2006-04-08 03:26:16 pm

2006-04-08 02:00:37 pm

They're already broken up further by difficulty, characters (Or secret costumes like Super Dante or something in DMC1), ranking if the game does in fact have a ranking system (See Mega Man Zero, Devil May Cry 1), a minamalist completion, working with only the bare essentials or exactly only what the game gives you to work with, and death abuse off the top of my head.

Now you want a new category for no sequence breaks or glitches? I'm pretty sure everyone here's going to answer the same as me when I say "No." It's been discussed in the past a few times and unless there's a specific glitch that Radix doesn't like, pretty much everything's free game.

VorpalEdge

2006-04-08 05:29:20 pm

welcome to the machine

Defining 'gameplay violation' means defining what the developers intended you to do. Have fun with that one...

So no, I don't think non-sequence-breaking runs should be included. Besides the above, it's intentionally slowing yourself down for no real reason. :/

darkwasabi

2006-04-08 05:36:34 pm

King of hearts

Quote:

Defining 'gameplay violation' means defining what the developers intended you to do. Have fun with that one...

So no, I don't think non-sequence-breaking runs should be included. Besides the above, it's intentionally slowing yourself down for no real reason. :/

Ditto

KD

2006-04-08 08:23:32 pm

Jealousy™

With a gameplay violation I meant: "Using a glitch to sequence break"

I do *not* want a category for "no sequence breaks". That would be ridiculous.

However, using glitches to sequence break is imo a different case. That does violate the gameplay.

Hitaro

2006-04-08 08:28:40 pm

Quote:

With a gameplay violation I meant: "Using a glitch to sequence break"

I do *not* want a category for "no sequence breaks". That would be ridiculous.

However, using glitches to sequence break is imo a different case. That does violate the gameplay.

No offence, but you're making less and less sense every post you make... I mean, what is the point of this thread? Making Radix accept runs without any "gameplay violations" even when there should to make it faster? You should know by now that Radix'll never accept those...

VorpalEdge

2006-04-08 08:37:32 pm

welcome to the machine

Alright then. Define 'glitch.'

Is the mockball in super metroid a glitch? Is early spirit in OoT a glitch?

The only times we should ever pay attention to glitches is in the case of a major glitch (and 'major' usually means 'violates collision boundaries by brute force-ing through instead of bypassing them').

FIERCELINKMASTER

Edit history:

FIERCELINKMASTER: 2006-04-08 08:52:56 pm

2006-04-08 08:52:42 pm

No the Quail is not riding the Q

Quote:

Does use glitches/bugs for sequence breaks or skips (violates gameplay)

Using a cucco to get to over a fence doesn't seem like a 'Glitch'
It just happens to allow to go to the Spirit Temple early though.

VorpalEdge

2006-04-08 09:10:42 pm

welcome to the machine

I was referring more to going through the gate to the haunted wasteland from the fortress (iirc, you have to side-hop onto a cliff and then jumpslash through the gate?).

Ekarderif

2006-04-09 02:56:38 am

Your almighty lordship

Might as well break it up into:
Runners who like pants
Runners who like cheese

Aresake

Edit history:

Aresake: 2006-04-09 08:13:28 am

2006-04-09 08:05:27 am

Glowy eyes of DOOM!

There's a reason why Radix generally forbids (or at least says that he forbids) glitches that allow you to leave the normal game bounds. These kinds of glitches generally allow you to skip so much of the game that it's hardly the same game anymore. People who argue that all glitches are universally acceptable need to ask themselves the following question: should the Mario64 16 star runs obsolete the 70 star runs? I'm pretty sure most of the site's viewers would agree with the seperate categories for 16, 70, and 120 stars. Plenty of us want to see the 16-star glitched version just out of curiosity, but we're also interested in watching the more difficult later levels that are totally skipped in the 16-star video. Another example: Zelda aLttP has horrible glitches that allow the character to enter the "netherworld" between dungeons and then jump back into any dungeon of their choosing, thereby skipping at least 95% of the game. Look at http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/zelda_lttp_glitch.txt if you don't believe me; the author has beaten the game in 3 minutes 30 seconds. And yet, nobody would ever suggest that a video of this ought to obsolete TSA's 1:39:47 Single-segment.

I have a feeling that the reason this thread came up was because of some of the tricks being discussed for the new OoT run. I appear to be in the minority here, but I think that the run should be placed in a seperate category if it does any of the following:

-leaves the boundaries of the game
-forces Link through (not around) any barrier that is supposed to be impenetrable
-skips any medallions or spiritual stones

However, even if you're not convinced that the first two items on that list merit seperate categories, I must absolutely insist that the third one does. This is exactly like the Mario64 16/70 star distinction. To me, where and when the game programming actually checks for the stones/medallions/stars/what-have-you is irrelevant, because from the game's point of view, the very purpose of your character's quest is to collect these items. One could not make a similar argument for, say, the Lens of Truth. The Lens of Truth is just an ability-enhancing item whose abilities you don't need. The medallions and spiritual stones, on the other hand, are not ability-enhancing items; they are quest progress markers. Certificates, if you will. Failure to obtain all these markers means that you didn't complete the entire quest. Period.

And stop whining that "We'll never be able to define exactly which glitches are unacceptable and which aren't." Of course not. But that's precisely what Radix himself admits in the rules page. What I said above are the glitches that I think demand a seperate category, for OoT specifically. I'm not saying anything more than that, because every game needs to be considered seperately. Trying to define an unaccpeptable glitch as a "gameplay violation" won't help either.

Also, I don't see how the "too many categories" argument holds any water. Again, categories need to be defined on a per-game basis. No one ever suggested that we ought to have categories like "Zelda 64: Ocarina of Time Single-segment, obtain 4 of the 6 medallions, allowed to glitch through the gerudo gate but not the shadow temple fence. . . etc." and then have every permutation of those variables. No, games should have at most 3-4 categories, and those should be defined according to the nature of what the runner is doing, and what it is that people want to see or want to compete over. Generally, the any% and 100% categories have served us well. If you want my opinion, I think that "death abuse" and "save warping" are far too arbitrary to admit seperate categories. On the other hand, as in the case of Mario64 and OoT, any% must occasionally be broken down further based on the nature of glitches used, and whether or not the entire quest is completed (as opposed to just getting the ending).

There's a reason why Radix generally forbids (or at least says that he forbids) glitches that allow you to leave the normal game bounds.  These kinds of glitches generally allow you to skip so much of the game that it's hardly the same game anymore.  People who argue that all glitches are universally acceptable need to ask themselves the following question: should the Mario64 16 star runs obsolete the 70 star runs?  I'm pretty sure most of the site's viewers would agree with the seperate categories for 16, 70, and 120 stars.  Plenty of us want to see the 16-star glitched version just out of curiosity, but we're also interested in watching the more difficult later levels that are totally skipped in the 16-star video.  Another example: Zelda aLttP has horrible glitches that allow the character to enter the "netherworld" between dungeons and then jump back into any dungeon of their choosing, thereby skipping at least 95% of the game. Look at http://db.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/zelda_lttp_glitch.txt if you don't believe me; the author has beaten the game in 3 minutes 30 seconds.  And yet, nobody would ever suggest that a video of this ought to obsolete TSA's 1:39:47 Single-segment.

I have a feeling that the reason this thread came up was because of some of the tricks being discussed for the new OoT run.  I appear to be in the minority here, but I think that the run should be placed in a seperate category if it does any of the following:

-leaves the boundaries of the game 
-forces Link [i]through[/i] (not around) any barrier that is supposed to be impenetrable 
-skips any medallions or spiritual stones

However, even if you're not convinced that the first two items on that list merit seperate categories, I must absolutely insist that the third one does. This is [i]exactly[/i] like the Mario64 16/70 star distinction.  To me, where and when the game programming actually checks for the stones/medallions/stars/what-have-you is irrelevant, because from the game's point of view, the very purpose of your character's quest is to collect these items.  One could not make a similar argument for, say, the Lens of Truth.  The Lens of Truth is just an ability-enhancing item whose abilities you don't need.  The medallions and spiritual stones, on the other hand, are not ability-enhancing items; they are quest progress markers.   Certificates, if you will.  Failure to obtain all these markers means that you didn't complete the entire quest.  Period.

And stop whining that "We'll never be able to define exactly which glitches are unacceptable and which aren't." Of course not.  But that's precisely what Radix himself admits in the rules page.  What I said above are the glitches that I think demand a seperate category, for OoT specifically.  I'm not saying anything more than that, because every game needs to be considered seperately.  Trying to define an unaccpeptable glitch as a "gameplay violation" won't help either.

Also, I don't see how the "too many categories" argument holds any water.  Again, categories need to be defined on a per-game basis.  No one ever suggested that we ought to have categories like "Zelda 64: Ocarina of Time Single-segment, obtain 4 of the 6 medallions, allowed to glitch through the gerudo gate but [i]not[/i] the shadow temple fence. . . etc." and then have every permutation of those variables.  No, games should have at most 3-4 categories, and those should be defined according to the nature of what the runner is doing, and what it is that people want to see or want to compete over.  Generally, the any% and 100% categories have served us well.  If you want my opinion, I think that "death abuse" and "save warping" are far too arbitrary to admit seperate categories.  On the other hand, as in the case of Mario64 and OoT, any% must occasionally be broken down further based on the nature of glitches used, and whether or not the entire quest is completed (as opposed to just getting the ending).

StrangenessDSS

Edit history:

StrangenessDSS: 2006-04-09 09:15:13 am

2006-04-09 09:14:53 am

Sleeping Terror

How would you suggest defining the "get all medallions" category? Should it be "must have all medallions when the game is beaten", arbitrarily requiring certain items for no other reason than plot? Should it be "pretend the game won't give you the light arrows without all the medallions"? Should it be "damage boosting is banned"? Should it be "pretend there is no way to enter Shadow without the Nocturne"? None of those make any sense to me.

By the way, the Metroid Prime 2 run skips items which have a similar "plot importance" to the medallions, and it's able to do so for exactly the same reason - the game doesn't check for any but the last one(s).

And reducing OoT's plot to "get medallions and kill Ganon" is extremely arbitrary. Why not simply "kill Ganon"? That's what triggers the ending sequence. If you must add more, why not "collect items such as the Lens to enable completing temples, receiving medallions, and eventually killing Ganon"? Oh, right, because that would destroy your argument.

How would you suggest defining the "get all medallions" category? Should it be "must have all medallions when the game is beaten", arbitrarily requiring certain items for no other reason than plot? Should it be "pretend the game won't give you the light arrows without all the medallions"? Should it be "damage boosting is banned"? Should it be "pretend there is no way to enter Shadow without the Nocturne"? None of those make any sense to me.

By the way, the Metroid Prime 2 run skips items which have a similar "plot importance" to the medallions, and it's able to do so for exactly the same reason - the game doesn't check for any but the last one(s).

And reducing OoT's plot to "get medallions and kill Ganon" is extremely arbitrary. Why not simply "kill Ganon"? That's what triggers the ending sequence. If you must add more, why not "collect items such as the Lens to enable completing temples, receiving medallions, and eventually killing Ganon"? Oh, right, because that would destroy your argument.

KD

2006-04-09 09:42:07 am

Jealousy™

StrangenessDSS, you appear to me as a fairly intelligent person.

You also appear to me to be arguing for the sake of argument and not because any of the following:

- You actually stand for the opinion you are representing.
- You can actually support this opinion.

Because of this, we could safely just ignore you, but I'll go in-depth on your post anyway.

Quote:

How would you suggest defining the "get all medallions" category? Should it be "must have all medallions when the game is beaten", arbitrarily requiring certain items for no other reason than plot? Should it be "pretend the game won't give you the light arrows without all the medallions"? Should it be "damage boosting is banned"? Should it be "pretend there is no way to enter Shadow without the Nocturne"? None of those make any sense to me.

I'd suggest it should be 'Obtain all medallions before triggering bridge cutscene'.

Where the 'bug' used to sequence break is triggering the bridge cutscene before collecting all medallions.

Quote:

By the way, the Metroid Prime 2 run skips items which have a similar "plot importance" to the medallions, and it's able to do so for exactly the same reason - the game doesn't check for any but the last one(s).

I just murdered my brother. I was able to do so because he was sleeping and I had a lethal weapon at hand. Oh, and prosecuting me would be unfair, because someone commited murder a few blocks away, as well, and he managed to get away with it.

(I'm actually not familiar with the Metroid Prime 2 case.)

Quote:

And reducing OoT's plot to "get medallions and kill Ganon" is extremely arbitrary. Why not simply "kill Ganon"? That's what triggers the ending sequence.

It's not so much the plot, as that you're using bugs/glitches to skip half the quest. Are you suggesting SDA hosts the 4 minute LTTP run as well? It has been shown that you do not need to play through the game in order to beat it. Plot/Completing quest shouldn't matter, in your opinion, nor should the use of bugs/glitches. Right?

Quote:

If you must add more, why not "collect items such as the Lens to enable completing temples, receiving medallions, and eventually killing Ganon"? Oh, right, because that would destroy your argument.

Quote:

One could not make a similar argument for, say, the Lens of Truth. The Lens of Truth is just an ability-enhancing item whose abilities you don't need. The medallions and spiritual stones, on the other hand, are not ability-enhancing items; they are quest progress markers. Certificates, if you will. Failure to obtain all these markers means that you didn't complete the entire quest. Period.

The Lens isn't skipped using glitches or bugs in the code either. The game simply allows you to skip it. The programmers purposely let you, perhaps too allow for a challenge for the die-hards.

StrangenessDSS, you appear to me as a fairly intelligent person.

You also appear to me to be arguing for the sake of argument and not because any of the following:

- You actually stand for the opinion you are representing.
- You can actually support this opinion.

Because of this, we could safely just ignore you, but I'll go in-depth on your post anyway.

[quote]How would you suggest defining the "get all medallions" category? Should it be "must have all medallions when the game is beaten", arbitrarily requiring certain items for no other reason than plot? Should it be "pretend the game won't give you the light arrows without all the medallions"? Should it be "damage boosting is banned"? Should it be "pretend there is no way to enter Shadow without the Nocturne"? None of those make any sense to me.[/quote]

I'd suggest it should be 'Obtain all medallions before triggering bridge cutscene'.

Where the 'bug' used to sequence break is triggering the bridge cutscene before collecting all medallions.

[quote]By the way, the Metroid Prime 2 run skips items which have a similar "plot importance" to the medallions, and it's able to do so for exactly the same reason - the game doesn't check for any but the last one(s).[/quote]

I just murdered my brother. I was able to do so because he was sleeping and I had a lethal weapon at hand. Oh, and prosecuting me would be unfair, because someone commited murder a few blocks away, as well, and he managed to get away with it.

(I'm actually not familiar with the Metroid Prime 2 case.)
 
[quote]And reducing OoT's plot to "get medallions and kill Ganon" is extremely arbitrary. Why not simply "kill Ganon"? That's what triggers the ending sequence.[/quote]

It's not so much the plot, as that you're using bugs/glitches to skip half the quest. Are you suggesting SDA hosts the 4 minute LTTP run as well? It has been shown that you do not need to play through the game in order to beat it. Plot/Completing quest shouldn't matter, in your opinion, nor should the use of bugs/glitches. Right?

[quote]If you must add more, why not "collect items such as the Lens to enable completing temples, receiving medallions, and eventually killing Ganon"? Oh, right, because that would destroy your argument.[/quote]

[quote]One could not make a similar argument for, say, the Lens of Truth.  The Lens of Truth is just an ability-enhancing item whose abilities you don't need.  The medallions and spiritual stones, on the other hand, are not ability-enhancing items; they are quest progress markers.   Certificates, if you will.  Failure to obtain all these markers means that you didn't complete the entire quest.  Period.[/quote]

The Lens isn't skipped using glitches or bugs in the code either. The game simply allows you to skip it. The programmers purposely let you, perhaps too allow for a challenge for the die-hards.

Aresake

2006-04-09 10:23:22 am

Glowy eyes of DOOM!

Obviously, "get all medallions" means "get all spiritual stones/medallions and then finish the game." You can't ever lose them, so that's rather unambiguous. Just like the 70 star run means "get 70 stars and then finish the game." A lot of people (like myself) feel that the game isn't fully completed unless you obtain 70, independent of whatever programmer oversights are exploitable.

I agree that importance to the plot isn't relevant to a site like SDA. Nor did I ever mention the word "plot"; what I said was "full completion of the game," which will indeed have an arbitrary definition. Reaching the ending point is usually enough to define full completion, but in the case of certain games (e.g. the games mentioned in my previous post), exceptions must sometimes be made, because otherwise you'd just be running a disappointingly small subsection of the game. And for those who are satisfied with merely reaching the ending, you still retain those runs in the "any% anything goes" category.

A game like aLttP is clearly one where most people would never want the 0:03:30 version to obsolete a full completion. On the other hand, in Metroid Prime (and Metroid games in general), nobody seems to mind skipping whole sections, because the fact that you skipped important powerups means that you'll have to pull off more impressive stunts later on to make up for it. OoT is interesting because it's a borderline case whether skipping sections as large as the main temples omits enough of the "meat" of the game to disappoint the viewers/runners; different people will have different opions on this. That is precisely why I think it's crucial to maintain both categories for OoT.

Obviously, "get all medallions" means "get all spiritual stones/medallions and then finish the game."  You can't ever lose them, so that's rather unambiguous.  Just like the 70 star run means "get 70 stars and then finish the game."  A lot of people (like myself) feel that the game isn't fully completed unless you obtain 70, independent of whatever programmer oversights are exploitable.

I agree that importance to the plot isn't relevant to a site like SDA.  Nor did I ever mention the word "plot"; what I said was "full completion of the game," which will indeed have an arbitrary definition.  Reaching the ending point is usually enough to define full completion, but in the case of certain games (e.g. the games mentioned in my previous post), exceptions must sometimes be made, because otherwise you'd just be running a disappointingly small subsection of the game.  And for those who are satisfied with merely reaching the ending, you still retain those runs in the "any% anything goes" category.

A game like aLttP is clearly one where most people would never want the 0:03:30 version to obsolete a full completion.  On the other hand, in Metroid Prime (and Metroid games in general), nobody seems to mind skipping whole sections, because the fact that you skipped important powerups means that you'll have to pull off more impressive stunts later on to make up for it.  OoT is interesting because it's a borderline case whether skipping sections as large as the main temples omits enough of the "meat" of the game to disappoint the viewers/runners; different people will have different opions on this.  That is precisely why I think it's crucial to maintain both categories for OoT.

FIERCELINKMASTER

Edit history:

FIERCELINKMASTER: 2006-04-09 01:42:44 pm

2006-04-09 01:24:42 pm

No the Quail is not riding the Q

Quote:

Therefore I plead for these kinds of runs, runs that use glitches or bugs to sequence break, to have their seperate category. So that they may flourish, yet not harm the skilled runs that did complete the entire quest.

Well in the Master quest.. It is possible to skip the child portion of the Spirit Temple due to the fact I found a way past the jet as an Adult.
There is no reason that shouldn't be allowed yet it has a major affect on the run.

TSA took damage in order to get the Spirit Temple Boss Key without completing the puzzle.
You can also take damage when you have the Hover boots to travel over large gaps which allows to destroy the water temple.

TSA damage boosted in order to skip pushing the block in the Shadow Temple.
It just so happens you can damage boost to get into the Shadow Temple Early.

So the ability to skip any medallions or spiritual stones and being able push yourself through walls are the things that should have a seperate category.
The actual tricks in this game are OK.

[quote]Therefore I plead for these kinds of runs, runs that use glitches or bugs to sequence break, to have their seperate category. So that they may flourish, yet not harm the skilled runs that did complete the entire quest.
[/quote]
Well in the Master quest.. It is possible to skip the child portion of the Spirit Temple due to the fact I found a way past the jet as an Adult.
There is no reason that shouldn't be allowed yet it has a major affect on the run.

TSA took damage in order to get the Spirit Temple Boss Key without completing the puzzle.
You can also take damage when you have the Hover boots to travel over large gaps which allows to destroy the water temple.

TSA damage boosted in order to skip pushing the block in the Shadow Temple.
It just so happens you can damage boost to get into the Shadow Temple Early.

So the ability to skip any medallions or spiritual stones and being able push yourself through walls are the things that should have a seperate category.
The actual tricks in this game are OK.

KD

Edit history:

KD: 2006-04-09 02:31:42 pm

2006-04-09 02:30:56 pm

Jealousy™

Sequence breaking I meant as in route, not inside the rooms -.-;

But yeah.

And yes, it should be allowed, but in a seperate category. Unless it's a trick you're using, and not a bug/glitch.

darkwasabi

Edit history:

darkwasabi: 2006-04-09 03:45:23 pm

2006-04-09 03:41:51 pm

King of hearts

Quote:

You also appear to me to be arguing for the sake of argument...

Because of this, we could safely just ignore you, but I'll go in-depth on your post anyway.

I just murdered my brother. I was able to do so because he was sleeping and I had a lethal weapon at hand. Oh, and prosecuting me would be unfair, because someone commited murder a few blocks away, as well, and he managed to get away with it.

(I'm actually not familiar with the Metroid Prime 2 case.)

You're such a hypocritical bastard, you know that? Not only are you insulting a mod of this site, you had no familiarity with this case and yet you chose to reply(a very poor reply that's completely irrelevent and makes you look like the total moron you are) with an argument for no apparent reason.

Quote:

I'd suggest it should be 'Obtain all medallions before triggering bridge cutscene'.

There is no reason to get all the medalions. If the bridge cutscene can be triggered with A and B, there's no reason to get C, D, E etc. just for it to follow the storyline. If the cut scenes could be skipped, then would you also suggest we keep them in, for the sake of the story? You're just making an arbitrary(there's that word again, look it up because you obviously don't understand what it means since you keep making those kinds of disputes) argument based on nothing but your opinion. My goodness, you're arguments just get stupider by each post.

Quote:

It's not so much the plot, as that you're using bugs/glitches to skip half the quest. Are you suggesting SDA hosts the 4 minute LTTP run as well? It has been shown that you do not need to play through the game in order to beat it. Plot/Completing quest shouldn't matter, in your opinion, nor should the use of bugs/glitches. Right?

THE LTTP GLITCH IS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT HARDWARE MODIFICATION!

Quote:

The Lens isn't skipped using glitches or bugs in the code either. The game simply allows you to skip it. The programmers purposely let you, perhaps too allow for a challenge for the die-hards.

OK, I guess I'll have to use caps lock for this as well *breaths in*... WE DON'T CARE WHAT THE DAMN PROGRAMMERS INTENDED FOR YOU TO DO. IT'S THE NATURE OF THE GLITCHES USED THAT WILL DETERMINE IF IT'S IN A SEPARATE CATEGORY. END OF DISCUSSION.

[quote] You also appear to me to be arguing for the sake of argument...

Because of this, we could safely just ignore you, but I'll go in-depth on your post anyway.

I just murdered my brother. I was able to do so because he was sleeping and I had a lethal weapon at hand. Oh, and prosecuting me would be unfair, because someone commited murder a few blocks away, as well, and he managed to get away with it.

(I'm actually not familiar with the Metroid Prime 2 case.)[/quote]

You're such a hypocritical bastard, you know that?  Not only are you insulting a mod of this site, you had no familiarity with this case and yet you chose to reply(a very poor reply that's completely irrelevent and makes you look like the total moron you are) with an argument for no apparent reason.

[quote]I'd suggest it should be 'Obtain all medallions before triggering bridge cutscene'.[/quote]

There is no reason to get all the medalions.  If the bridge cutscene can be triggered with A and B, there's no reason to get C, D, E etc. just for it to follow the storyline.  If the cut scenes could be skipped, then would you also suggest we keep them in, for the sake of the story?  You're just making an arbitrary(there's that word again, look it up because you obviously don't understand what it means since you keep making those kinds of disputes) argument based on nothing but your opinion.  My goodness, you're arguments just get stupider by each post.
 
[quote]It's not so much the plot, as that you're using bugs/glitches to skip half the quest. Are you suggesting SDA hosts the 4 minute LTTP run as well? It has been shown that you do not need to play through the game in order to beat it. Plot/Completing quest shouldn't matter, in your opinion, nor should the use of bugs/glitches. Right?[/quote]

THE LTTP GLITCH IS NOT POSSIBLE WITHOUT HARDWARE MODIFICATION!

[quote]The Lens isn't skipped using glitches or bugs in the code either. The game simply allows you to skip it. The programmers purposely let you, perhaps too allow for a challenge for the die-hards.[/quote]

OK, I guess I'll have to use caps lock for this as well *breaths in*...  WE DON'T CARE WHAT THE DAMN PROGRAMMERS INTENDED FOR YOU TO DO.  IT'S THE NATURE OF THE GLITCHES USED THAT WILL DETERMINE IF IT'S IN A SEPARATE CATEGORY.  END OF DISCUSSION.

Psychochild

2006-04-09 05:04:19 pm

Quote:

I just murdered my brother. I was able to do so because he was sleeping and I had a lethal weapon at hand. Oh, and prosecuting me would be unfair, because someone commited murder a few blocks away, as well, and he managed to get away with it.

God I love these analogies.

FIERCELINKMASTER

Edit history:

FIERCELINKMASTER: 2006-04-09 06:59:22 pm

2006-04-09 06:26:43 pm

No the Quail is not riding the Q

Quote:

Sequence breaking I meant as in route, not inside the rooms -.-;

But yeah.

And yes, it should be allowed, but in a seperate category. Unless it's a trick you're using, and not a bug/glitch.

Well an example of a bug is the power crouch stab that was used in the run...

Now that you have your own thread.. I don't have a problem with this constant not making sense...thing...

But I'm not going to waste anymore of my time explaining to you why your logic sucks...Since I can tell you don't give a sh*t about what I have to say.

VorpalEdge

Edit history:

VorpalEdge: 2006-04-09 08:53:20 pm

2006-04-09 07:07:51 pm

welcome to the machine

Quote:

-leaves the boundaries of the game
-forces Link through (not around) any barrier that is supposed to be impenetrable
-skips any medallions or spiritual stones

However, even if you're not convinced that the first two items on that list merit seperate categories, I must absolutely insist that the third one does. This is exactly like the Mario64 16/70 star distinction.

Wrong. The Mario 64 16/70 star distinction is made because Mario is forced through doors, not because of a random plot issue.

Plot has no bearing whatsoever.

And we do keep track of the first two things you listed. The second, 'forcing through an impenetrable barrier' thing is a separate category, as shown. Runs abusing the first cateogry, 'leaving game boundaries', are not accepted here at all. Ever hear of a secret world in the Metroid Prime games?

Quote:

And yes, it should be allowed, but in a seperate category. Unless it's a trick you're using, and not a bug/glitch.

And you still have yet to differentiate between 'trick' and 'bug/glitch.'

[quote] -leaves the boundaries of the game  
-forces Link through (not around) any barrier that is supposed to be impenetrable  
-skips any medallions or spiritual stones
 
However, even if you're not convinced that the first two items on that list merit seperate categories, I must absolutely insist that the third one does. This is exactly like the Mario64 16/70 star distinction.[/quote]

Wrong.  The Mario 64 16/70 star distinction is made because Mario is forced through doors, not because of a random plot issue.

Plot has no bearing whatsoever.

And we do keep track of the first two things you listed.  The second, 'forcing through an impenetrable barrier' thing is a separate category, as shown.  Runs abusing the first cateogry, 'leaving game boundaries', are not accepted here at all.  Ever hear of a secret world in the Metroid Prime games?

[quote] And yes, it should be allowed, but in a seperate category. Unless it's a trick you're using, and not a bug/glitch.[/quote]

And you still have yet to differentiate between 'trick' and 'bug/glitch.'

DTaeKim

2006-04-09 07:39:27 pm

Quote:

I just murdered my brother. I was able to do so because he was sleeping and I had a lethal weapon at hand. Oh, and prosecuting me would be unfair, because someone commited murder a few blocks away, as well, and he managed to get away with it.

What kind of half-assed analogy was that? You can't possibly compare the two.

AKA

2006-04-09 09:16:36 pm

He's back!

This thread isn't going anywhere.

Ekarderif

2006-04-09 10:17:31 pm

Your almighty lordship

Actually, it seems to be going everywhere.

Aresake

2006-04-09 10:23:52 pm

Glowy eyes of DOOM!

Quote:

Wrong. The Mario 64 16/70 star distinction is made because Mario is forced through doors, not because of a random plot issue.

Is that truly the only reason? Imagine for a moment that the glitch allowed you to beat the game with 65 stars instead of 16. Then I doubt that anyone would really care about seeing the 70 star run. The extent to which you're cutting out a huge section of the game matters too, not just the nature of the glitch.

Quote:

Runs abusing the first cateogry, 'leaving game boundaries', are not accepted here at all.

That's not true either. Have you seen the new HL2 run? Call me a fool, but I'm pretty sure they left the game boundaries several times in that video. Plus there's the fact that they used third-party tools to assist them, but that's a whole new can of worms I don't want to open up.

How about the gannon trials skip? This glitch is clearly a case of leaving the game boundaries, no question. Aren't they planning to use that?

[quote]

Wrong.  The Mario 64 16/70 star distinction is made because Mario is forced through doors, not because of a random plot issue.
[/quote]

Is that truly the only reason?   Imagine for a moment that the glitch allowed you to beat the game with 65 stars instead of 16.  Then I doubt that anyone would really care about seeing the 70 star run.  The extent to which you're cutting out a huge section of the game matters too, not just the nature of the glitch.

[quote]
Runs abusing the first cateogry, 'leaving game boundaries', are not accepted here at all.
[/quote]

That's not true either.  Have you seen the new HL2 run?  Call me a fool, but I'm pretty sure they left the game boundaries several times in that video.   Plus there's the fact that they used third-party tools to assist them, but that's a whole new can of worms I don't want to open up.

How about the gannon trials skip?  This glitch is clearly a case of leaving the game boundaries, no question.  Aren't they planning to use that?

FIERCELINKMASTER

Edit history:

FIERCELINKMASTER: 2006-04-09 10:31:37 pm

2006-04-09 10:28:15 pm

No the Quail is not riding the Q

Quote:

How about the gannon trials skip? This glitch is clearly a case of leaving the game boundaries, no question. Aren't they planning to use that?

SEPERATE CATEGORY

Quote:

Is that truly the only reason? Imagine for a moment that the glitch allowed you to beat the game with 65 stars instead of 16. Then I doubt that anyone would really care about seeing the 70 star run. The extent to which you're cutting out a huge section of the game matters too, not just the nature of the glitch.

Why would you use that glitch just once!?..