Banjo Kazooie - True 100%

2014-11-10 12:18:22 am

Suggesting goals that never get done

Basically, I've gotten tired of people saying that the current 100% goal is as far as they will ever go. In Banjo Kazooie, we all know that there are

-100 Jiggies
-900 Notes
-24 Honeycomb Pieces
-7 total Stop n' Swop items (easiest to get on XBLA version as codes aren't needed with a Nuts And Bolts save)
-And 115 Mumbo Tokens

Never once has a 100% run included the bottom two. How do you expect to 100% a game if you aren't even collecting everything? There is the common argument "100% is collecting everything on the totals screens." And that in my opinion is bullshit. 100% stands for doing everything you possibly can in the game, which should include collecting all of those. "But Cinder, they're still not on the totals screen so they don't count." I just put up the finite numbers of all the items in the game. If you can't keep count on your own, use a Counter app for your computer to keep track. Seriously. Is a run so hard that you have to skip another 40 Mumbo Tokens to finish it? Or not even put in stop n swop codes? You need to collect absolutely everything for a true 100% run. Just cause it adds on maybe another 30 minutes to your run doesn't mean that it makes the run bad.

I vote that we create a new category where everything in the game must be collected. "True 100%".

Thread title:

Basically, I've gotten tired of people saying that the current 100% goal is as far as they will ever go. In Banjo Kazooie, we all know that there are

-100 Jiggies
-900 Notes
-24 Honeycomb Pieces
-7 total Stop n' Swop items (easiest to get on XBLA version as codes aren't needed with a Nuts And Bolts save)
-And 115 Mumbo Tokens

Never once has a 100% run included the bottom two. How do you expect to 100% a game if you aren't even collecting everything? There is the common argument "100% is collecting everything on the totals screens." And that in my opinion is bullshit. 100% stands for doing everything you possibly can in the game, which should include collecting all of those. "But Cinder, they're still not on the totals screen so they don't count." I just put up the finite numbers of all the items in the game. If you can't keep count on your own, use a Counter app for your computer to keep track. Seriously. Is a run so hard that you have to skip another 40 Mumbo Tokens to finish it? Or not even put in stop n swop codes? You need to collect absolutely everything for a true 100% run. Just cause it adds on maybe another 30 minutes to your run doesn't mean that it makes the run bad.

I vote that we create a new category where everything in the game must be collected. "True 100%".

MHFsilver

2014-11-10 02:07:29 am

iQue Guy

Well for the Stop n' Swop stuff, if I believe right you can't actually collect them all without cheats. I could be very wrong there but I remember reading that somewhere. And as for the Mumbo tokens, the game doesn't actually track them. The definition of 100% used in most games is what the game tracks so basically X out of X and BK doesn't say how many Mumbo tokens you have out of the 115 so they don't count it as a part of 100%

mike89

2014-11-10 03:38:32 am

SEGA Junkie

If you think of Mumbo tokens as currency (which, if you think about it, they are), the decision not to include them makes a lot more sense. Would you require 100% of an RPG to include opening every chest with gold in it? Just because something is finite doesn't mean it needs to be collected in 100%.

(As an aside, there's actually 116 tokens... there's two in MMM that are kind of "linked" to each other, such that if you pick one of them up the other one disappears. Wouldn't make a difference, but just something interesting.)

Uilnslcoap

Edit history:

Uilnslcoap: 2014-11-10 04:21:34 am

Uilnslcoap: 2014-11-10 04:07:17 am

Uilnslcoap: 2014-11-10 03:52:25 am

2014-11-10 03:46:54 am

F*ckin' sanity effects...

I probably wouldn't watch this category, myself, but do you have to delete the save file every time you start over? All the Stop 'n' Swop stuff is basically collected forever once you collect it on the N64 cart, even if you delete every save file (I'm pretty sure). Same thing on 360, but perhaps if you're willing to go through the rigmarole of deleting everything from the hard drive each time, it might work on 360? But 360 kind of sucks to watch for lack of a consistent text skip (or is there a way to do that I'm not aware of?).

Anyway, for myself, it's not an interesting category, but I can see why some people would like it.

ETA: Also I think the most high-quality runners would say the answer to this question "Is a run so hard that you have to skip another 40 Mumbo Tokens to finish it?" is "yes". Watching Stivitybobo not make it out of Treasure Trove Cove while streaming a couple hours the other night was an eye-opener for how effing rough this game can be to someone trying to do it really well. Several nights before that, he was about a minute ahead of his own PB/WR after Rusty Bucket Bay and got eaten alive by Click Clock Wood. It's not a simple game RE: twitch/skill and heavily RNG-dependent at times, including right at the end for Furnace Fun.

I probably wouldn't watch this category, myself, but do you have to delete the save file every time you start over?  All the Stop 'n' Swop stuff is basically collected forever once you collect it on the N64 cart, even if you delete every save file (I'm pretty sure).  Same thing on 360, but perhaps if you're willing to go through the rigmarole of deleting everything from the hard drive each time, it might work on 360?  But 360 kind of sucks to watch for lack of a consistent text skip (or is there a way to do that I'm not aware of?).

Anyway, for myself, it's not an interesting category, but I can see why some people would like it.

ETA: Also I think the most high-quality runners would say the answer to this question "Is a run so hard that you have to skip another 40 Mumbo Tokens to finish it?" is "yes".  Watching Stivitybobo not make it out of Treasure Trove Cove while streaming a couple hours the other night was an eye-opener for how effing rough this game can be to someone trying to do it really well.  Several nights before that, he was about a minute ahead of his own PB/WR after Rusty Bucket Bay and got eaten alive by Click Clock Wood.  It's not a simple game RE: twitch/skill and heavily RNG-dependent at times, including right at the end for Furnace Fun.

ais523

2014-11-11 11:47:39 am

What about all the extra life statues? All the blue egg and red feather (and gold feather) collection locations?

Uilnslcoap

2014-11-11 11:59:19 am

F*ckin' sanity effects...

Not sure if sarcastic, but those respawn when you exit/re-enter a level (that is: I can sort of see the interest in collecting all Mumbo tokens because there's a finite number as opposed to those other re-spawning collectibles). I suppose if you were truly OCD, you could have a "collect everything (including re-spawning objects) at least once" run.

BTW, in this theoretical "true 100%" run, I'd also include the three Cheatos and activating those codes (not included in standard 100%).

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2014-11-11 03:20:25 pm

Klepto% could be cool, not sure if it would get really boring or if the routing for it would be cool or not

Hyperresonance

2014-11-11 07:35:59 pm

"They're still not on the totals screen so they don't count"

Correct. The definition of the category is to complete the totals screen. Likely not going to change any time soon. Nobody is going to buy a gameshark to wipe their cart every time someone wants to do a "true" 100% run.

Also, there is no actual counter for mumbo tokens. There is no easy way to prove you have gotten them all unless you watch the whole run (and you don't even use the termite so you have five extra). There also exists an "extra" mumbo token in Mad Monster Mansion because the programmers messed up. The cellar and loggo tokens are mutually exclusive; if you collect one, the other disappears. So, which one counts for "true" 100%?

"True" 100% should then also include (according to the way you see it): all cheato cheats, entering in the cheats, and completing the bottles puzzles inside Banjo's house.

Every 100% category is somewhat arbitrary. True any% is the only non arbitrary category (speedrunning itself is arbitrary if you haven't yet noticed). And every community deals with it differently. The current 100% definition for Banjo Kazooie is the best one and most people agree on that.

"They're still not on the totals screen so they don't count"

Correct. The definition of the category is to complete the totals screen.  Likely not going to change any time soon. Nobody is going to buy a gameshark to wipe their cart every time someone wants to do a "true" 100% run.

Also, there is no actual counter for mumbo tokens. There is no easy way to prove you have gotten them all unless you watch the whole run (and you don't even use the termite so you have five extra). There also exists an "extra" mumbo token in Mad Monster Mansion because the programmers messed up. The cellar and loggo tokens are mutually exclusive; if you collect one, the other disappears. So, which one counts for "true" 100%?

"True" 100% should then also include (according to the way you see it): all cheato cheats, entering in the cheats, and completing the bottles puzzles inside Banjo's house.

Every 100% category is somewhat arbitrary. True any% is the only non arbitrary category (speedrunning itself is arbitrary if you haven't yet noticed). And every community deals with it differently. The current 100% definition for Banjo Kazooie is the best one and most people agree on that.

Qgstkpnjtp

2014-11-11 07:38:59 pm

twitch.tv/fiveleafclover

do you even run bk

legit question

Cronikeys

2014-11-11 08:02:56 pm

Quote from mike89:

Would you require 100% of an RPG to include opening every chest with gold in it? Just because something is finite doesn't mean it needs to be collected in 100%.

This is my opinion. Mumbo tokens are currency for unlocking the transformations. They're similar to doors in this game.. just because the state of a door being opened can be saved, doesn't mean every door should have to be opened according to the definition of 100%.

This is sort of a subjective thing so there's no solution that will make everyone happy.

wfp

2014-11-11 09:05:19 pm

while i wouldn't mind an all mumbo tokens/all cheato pages run as that was how i played the game when it came out, it basically comes down to if there's anyone willing to run it, and far as i can tell no one is so no reason to push for it unless you're a runner who's willing to do it.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2014-11-12 09:20:18 am

2014-11-12 09:19:39 am

<(^_^)>

I don't think you're going to convince anyone to change the category to include mumbo tokens, especially since nobody knows who you are (and considering you made your account the same day you posted)

also this doesn't really belong in these boards, probably belongs in the SDA discussion sub-forum