Single Segment with Resets Now Accepted [locked]

Flip

IsraeliRD

Edit history:

IsraeliRD: 2016-01-19 11:56:02 am

IsraeliRD: 2016-01-19 11:55:41 am

IsraeliRD: 2016-01-19 11:55:34 am

IsraeliRD: 2016-01-19 11:55:26 am

moooh: 2013-11-09 02:47:39 am

Flip: 2012-06-28 09:17:17 am

Flip: 2011-08-08 11:39:46 pm

Flip: 2011-08-07 11:50:54 pm

Flip: 2011-08-07 11:39:14 pm

Flip: 2011-08-07 10:25:39 pm

2011-08-07 10:18:04 pm

1-Up!

edit: Single-segments with resets are now accepted globally so it's no longer limited to only the games previously listed in this thread.

That's right, folks! SDA is now officially accepting submissions of what many of you call "RTA."

Why aren't you calling it RTA, then?

Good question. RTA, or Real Time Attack, encompasses any run completed in a single session. Many of our members use the term RTA to specifically discuss runs that are completed in a single session and utilize resets. By definition, many of our existing SS runs on the site already qualify as RTAs. However, we don't want SS runs with resets to compete directly with those that don't reset. This is why we aren't using the term "RTA" even though it's widely used to describe the same thing. We're going to call these runs "Single Segment with Resets."

Okay, fair enough. Can I submit a Single Segment with Resets run of any game I want?

No! In many instances, a Single Segment with Resets run will differ only slightly from a normal SS run. We want to avoid redundancy. If I don't think that a Single Segments with Resets run will save a significant amount of time over an ordinary SS run, then I won't allow a run with resets to be submitted. PC games will also be considered on a case-by-case basis, but many games with the "save anywhere" function will need a very compelling reason or else it's getting shot down.

Hey, that makes perfect sense! Where do I go to see if my game is eligible for a Single Segment with Resets category?

Right here! The purpose of this thread (besides announcing that these types of runs are now accepted) is to decide which games are deserving of this extra category. If you think your game would benefit from a SS with Resets category, simply post with the name of the game, along with a brief write-up of how time is saved over an ordinary SS run and approximately how much the time difference is. I will then ask questions if necessary and decide if your game should have an extra category or not. Also, please don't suggest a game unless you truly intend to run it!

Thread title:

edit: Single-segments with resets are now [size=30][url=https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/single_segment_with_resets_now_accepted_globally.html]accepted globally[/url][/size] so it's no longer limited to only the games previously listed in this thread.

[size="18"]That's right, folks! SDA is now officially accepting submissions of what many of you call "RTA."[/size]

[color="red"][i]Why aren't you calling it RTA, then?[/i][/color]

Good question. RTA, or Real Time Attack, encompasses any run completed in a single session. Many of our members use the term RTA to specifically discuss runs that are completed in a single session and utilize resets. By definition, many of our existing SS runs on the site already qualify as RTAs. However, we don't want SS runs with resets to compete directly with those that don't reset. This is why we aren't using the term "RTA" even though it's widely used to describe the same thing. We're going to call these runs "Single Segment with Resets."

[color="red"][i]Okay, fair enough. Can I submit a Single Segment with Resets run of any game I want?[/i][/color]

No! In many instances, a Single Segment with Resets run will differ only slightly from a normal SS run. We want to avoid redundancy. If I don't think that a Single Segments with Resets run will save a significant amount of time over an ordinary SS run, then I won't allow a run with resets to be submitted. PC games will also be considered on a case-by-case basis, but many games with the "save anywhere" function will need a [i]very[/i] compelling reason or else it's getting shot down.

[color="red"][i]Hey, that makes perfect sense! Where do I go to see if my game is eligible for a Single Segment with Resets category?[/i][/color]

Right here! The purpose of this thread (besides announcing that these types of runs are now accepted) is to decide which games are deserving of this extra category. If you think your game would benefit from a SS with Resets category, simply post with the name of the game, along with a [u]brief[/u] write-up of how  time is saved over an ordinary SS run and approximately how much the time difference is. I will then ask questions if necessary and decide if your game should have an extra category or not. Also, [u]please don't suggest a game unless you truly intend to run it![/u]

Flip

Edit history:

Flip: 2012-08-24 05:25:34 pm

Flip: 2012-06-28 09:16:49 am

Flip: 2012-06-28 08:18:46 am

Flip: 2012-06-22 09:19:08 am

Flip: 2012-03-30 05:59:33 pm

mikwuyma: 2012-03-06 08:45:43 pm

mikwuyma: 2012-03-03 11:30:50 pm

mikwuyma: 2012-03-03 11:30:39 pm

Flip: 2011-11-27 09:12:57 pm

Flip: 2011-10-10 04:25:21 pm

Flip: 2011-10-03 05:34:58 pm

Flip: 2011-09-27 07:20:43 pm

Flip: 2011-09-02 03:53:02 pm

Flip: 2011-08-22 08:33:11 pm

Flip: 2011-08-21 09:34:16 am

Flip: 2011-08-17 07:07:41 pm

Flip: 2011-08-07 10:19:37 pm

2011-08-07 10:18:41 pm

1-Up!

Games worthy of a Single Segment with Resets category

-Amnesia: the Dark Descent - PC
-Darksiders - PS3/360/PC
-Donkey Kong 64 - N64
-Endeavor - Flash
-Half-Life: Opposing Force - PC
-Halo 2 - Xbox
-Jak and Daxter - PS2
-Legacy of Kain: Soul Reaver - PSX
-Minecraft - PC
-Pokemon Yellow - GBC
-Pokemon Diamond/Pearl/Platinum - DS
-Secret of Mana - SNES
-Sly Cooper - PS2
-Zelda: Link's Awakening - GB/GBC
-Zelda: Ocarina of Time - N64/VC
-Zelda: Oracle of Ages - GBC
-Zelda: Skyward Sword - Wii
-Zelda: Twilight Princess - GCN/Wii

Flip

2011-08-07 10:20:09 pm

1-Up!

I've added DK64 and OoT to save some of you the trouble. I know those aren't the only obvious ones.

mikwuyma

Edit history:

mikwuyma: 2011-08-07 10:36:07 pm

2011-08-07 10:35:33 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Sly Cooper lets you skip a lot of the cutscenes if you load the game at the right time (the game autosaves). I don't think anyone wants to play the game single-segment because there are so many long cutscenes. D:

You'd have to use real-time instead because the in-game timer wouldn't be very accurate with all of the loading IIRC.

aneeslol

2011-08-07 10:48:44 pm

I'm a chuckster!

Okay, so for Pokemon TCG, at the end you have to go through a gauntlet of 5 duels in a row, where if you lose one of the duels it kicks you out and you have to start over at the beginning(normally this would lose enough time that I have to redo the run). However, the game lets you save in between the duels, so if I get bad luck and lose one of them I can reset and reload to retry the duel without starting the whole thing over. Obviously this isn't good for the quality of the run, so it's something to be avoided, but since the game is so luck-based a loss may be completely out of my control, and my time may be good enough to warrant the reset. So, would this qualify as an acceptable use of resets?

Flip

2011-08-07 10:54:51 pm

1-Up!

This bring up a good example of what Single Segment with Resets is not for. Luck manipulation has always been a staple in speedruns. Using resets to account for bad luck will not be accepted in most cases. Just keep trying. You'll get it eventually.

This is also a good opportunity for me to re-emphasize that a SS run can obsolete a SS w/ Resets run but NOT vice-versa.

If there's a more compelling reason to allow SS w/ Resets for Pokemon TCG then I want to hear it. I won't allow it just as insurance for bad luck because I wouldn't accept a run that reset after a loss when a no-loss run is very possible.

aneeslol

Edit history:

aneeslol: 2011-08-07 11:19:20 pm

2011-08-07 11:16:55 pm

I'm a chuckster!

Well, my only argument against it is that a run without losses isn't necessarily faster than a run with losses, because the run with losses could have taken 2 turns to finish some of the duels while the run without losses could have taken 40 turns on the same duel. If I want to get the fastest time possible within reasonable luck manipulation, I would have to accept the fact that there may be a loss or two at the trade-off of having extremely quick duels. Anywhere else in the run I can just continue playing without resetting if I lose, so that's why I was asking if I could reset during the final gauntlet.

dballin

2011-08-07 11:17:58 pm

Balls jerky

How about games with save warping? a lot of people stream attempts so you can tell that the run was done in one sitting.

Flip

2011-08-07 11:31:41 pm

1-Up!

Games that can utilize save warping to save a significant amount of time over SS runs would be excellent candidates for SS w/ Resets.

mikwuyma

2011-08-07 11:33:24 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Oh yeah something Flip forgot to mention is that many PC games don't apply to this category because of how you can save anywhere and it would just look like a sloppy segmented run.

Flip

2011-08-07 11:39:29 pm

1-Up!

Good call, Mike. Added to the first post.

Caracarn

Edit history:

Caracarn: 2011-08-07 11:50:56 pm

2011-08-07 11:45:19 pm

The original Japanese Final Fantasy II for Famicom has an encounter avoidance trick that involves resetting, which would make it significantly faster than a regular single segment run.

Edit: I kind of prematurely posted this, as I'm not actually doing this run yet, but I am considering running it eventually.

Chiptune

2011-08-08 12:07:17 am

So this may be a newbish question, but don't save warping and dieing in OOT reset you to the same place? and isn't dieing already utilized in the current SS of OOT?

Eladar

2011-08-08 12:09:13 am

savewarping and dying don't take you to the same place. dying takes you to the start of the scene/area/dungeon/whatever you're in. savewarping takes you to the beginning of a dungeon if you are in one, otherwise it takes you to a specified starting location (treehouse as kid, temple of time as adult)

Chiptune

Edit history:

Chiptune: 2011-08-08 12:27:59 am

Chiptune: 2011-08-08 12:15:38 am

Chiptune: 2011-08-08 12:12:20 am

2011-08-08 12:11:23 am

Quote from Eladar:

savewarping and dying don't take you to the same place. dying takes you to the start of the scene/area/dungeon/whatever you're in. savewarping takes you to the beginning of a dungeon if you are in one, otherwise it takes you to a specified starting location (treehouse as kid, temple of time as adult)

Thank you. ^_^
~~btw, is it called death warping when you purposefully die to warp to the beginning of a dungeon?~~, newbish question Tongue

Edit: Addendum to below comment. That basically removes half of childlink section which is currently bomb chu's + hoverboots. Definitely worthy of a new category, and I am looking forward to RTA runs, a really good idea to start allowing these.

Eladar

2011-08-08 12:11:44 am

sorry for double post, just thought it'd be worthwhile to mention that in a single segment, you cannot get out of the master sword room if you dot skip without hover boots. if you kill yourself then you just start at the pedestal. ss runs need hover boots to get out of that room, while rta can use a savewarp to get to the other side of the door

FlamingMage

2011-08-08 12:17:27 am

For segmented runs, will a reset (specifially, loading a save) still constitute the beginning of a new segment even if play continues uninterrupted?

Also, I agree with this thread. Good job admins.

Blazier

Edit history:

Blazier: 2011-08-08 01:32:37 am

Blazier: 2011-08-08 01:28:20 am

2011-08-08 01:24:23 am

Good to see SDA is finally up with the rest of the speedrunning world ;).

Although, I don't think you should say PC runs aren't eligible for this category... Just decide on a per-game basis. I have a PC game in mind that would benefit a lot from an RTA, but making it segmented would trivialise it. Please keep in mind that you can't do the same things in an RTA than in a segmented run. The biggest difference I can think of is saving before something that requires a lot of luck, and then repeating it over and over until you get the segment. You can't do this in an RTA...

Also, I don't quite understand your reasoning for the weird name for this category... Does loading a save count as a reset... or is a reset only when you soft reset the console...

And even if you change the name... I can imagine most people will still call it an RTA.

Eladar

2011-08-08 02:07:44 am

the weird name is because it's single segment with resets...it's not strictly an rta as most people know it because of minor timing differences (character control vs file select/power on) and sometimes the real time aspect (when such a run would be timed on sda using game time, or when disc switches are involved)

Exo

2011-08-08 02:25:41 am

Sandbagging

Secret of Evermore needs to be on the list because of the Atlas Glitch :

ridd3r.

Edit history:

ridd3r.: 2011-08-08 03:30:42 am

ridd3r.: 2011-08-08 03:27:56 am

2011-08-08 03:26:23 am

we have lift off

Max Payne:

Obviously it's a PC game, but there's the ability to save glitch (allows you to regain control during cutscenes), which requires a reset of a quick save. Also the use of the DMW glitch which will save a lot of time on the first part. Basically it gives you full damage and the enemies don't shoot you, I created a thread about it a while ago.

In my head I was thinking about using quick saves to manipulate risky super jumps etc. but if that's not allowed, save glitching at least should be. It's not a case of manipulating luck, just using a glitch that can't be done in a normal SS run. I think it's unfair to categorically state RTA doesn't apply to PC runs, you should surely be allowed to save if it can be used for glitching?

Greenalink

2011-08-08 03:30:30 am

DS Dictator

Pokémon Diamond and Pearl tweaking glitch runs may accept this rule because unless I'm mistaken it is required to save the game, (menu or Explorers Kit) reset and load up the file to find out where you are after saving it.

13:43 onwards shows the saving procedure that is required to 'sequence break'

Darkwing Duck

2011-08-08 03:32:28 am

Highly Evolved

FF:MQ is a candidate for this new category.

Lag.Com

2011-08-08 06:10:33 am

sda loyalist

Adding 'PC runs are not eligible' is a ridiculous rule. For a start, not all PC games have 'save anywhere' capability as you assume, and there are also quite a few console games which DO have this capability, albeit mostly ports of PC games. Take that line out.

Paraxade

Edit history:

Paraxade: 2011-08-08 08:42:00 am

2011-08-08 08:30:18 am

Quote from Lag.Com:

Adding 'PC runs are not eligible' is a ridiculous rule,

Agreed, this is a bad idea. A good example of why is the save glitch in Portal which is triggered by saving and reloading in a certain spot. Portal 2 also has a glitch where you can get out of bounds by saving/reloading, but that's not as good an example because it's useless. [edit: a better portal 2 example is the button glitch, which lets you keep buttons held down with nothing on them by saving and loading while you walk off of one] Either way, this kind of thing does exist, so saying PC games aren't eligible is a dumb rule.