Single Segment with Resets Now Accepted [locked]

Edit history:

Paraxade: 2011-08-16 02:13:07 am

2011-08-16 02:11:53 am

I disagree with those examples. Dying in OoT is very different from reloading a save, since dying will always just warp you to the beginning of whatever area you're in, while saving will either warp you to the beginning of the dungeon you're in (if you're in one) or to a fixed location (either Link's house as a kid, or the Temple of Time as an adult). With the SM64 example, leaving a level through the pause menu is not at all the same thing as reloading a save file... not even close. Either way though, it's ridiculous to say something is segmentation because it accomplishes the same effect as saving/reloading even if it doesn't actually save/reload. Segmentation is defined by quitting the game and loading a save file, not by the way that doing that impacts the run.

I do agree though that a distinction should be made, though, in games where deaths force you to load your last save. Personally I think it's fine to count as a vanilla SS as long as it's loading from an autosave and not a manual save, but SDA might take a different stance...

I disagree with those examples. Dying in OoT is very different from reloading a save, since dying will always just warp you to the beginning of whatever area you're in, while saving will either warp you to the beginning of the dungeon you're in (if you're in one) or to a fixed location (either Link's house as a kid, or the Temple of Time as an adult). With the SM64 example, leaving a level through the pause menu is not at all the same thing as reloading a save file... not even close. Either way though, it's ridiculous to say something is segmentation because it accomplishes the same effect as saving/reloading even if it doesn't actually save/reload. Segmentation is defined by quitting the game and loading a save file, not by the way that doing that impacts the run.

I do agree though that a distinction should be made, though, in games where deaths force you to load your last save. Personally I think it's fine to count as a vanilla SS as long as it's loading from an autosave and not a manual save, but SDA might take a different stance...

ridd3r.

2011-08-16 06:49:57 am

we have lift off

Quote from Paraxade:

I disagree with those examples. Dying in OoT is very different from reloading a save, since dying will always just warp you to the beginning of whatever area you're in, while saving will either warp you to the beginning of the dungeon you're in (if you're in one) or to a fixed location (either Link's house as a kid, or the Temple of Time as an adult). With the SM64 example, leaving a level through the pause menu is not at all the same thing as reloading a save file... not even close.

It's still loading an autosave. The argument you used to say why saving and dying in OoT is different can be used against you for SM64. Dying there kicks you out of the level and you get a chance to retry, saving warps you to a location such as the red cap entrance. Dying in SM64 is basically exactly the same as what happened to me in max payne, it put me at the start of the level again. Also note that I don't actually need to quickload, if you spam shoot it automatically reloads and puts you at the start of the level. Just because the saves aren't the same (an autosave can actually be seen in a save menu) doesn't mean it's not exactly the same thing happening to all intent and purpose. With SM64 you're not leaving a level through the pause menu, you're saving and quitting the level...

[quote="Paraxade"]I disagree with those examples. Dying in OoT is very different from reloading a save, since dying will always just warp you to the beginning of whatever area you're in, while saving will either warp you to the beginning of the dungeon you're in (if you're in one) or to a fixed location (either Link's house as a kid, or the Temple of Time as an adult). With the SM64 example, leaving a level through the pause menu is not at all the same thing as reloading a save file... not even close.[/quote]

It's still loading an autosave. The argument you used to say why saving and dying in OoT is different can be used against you for SM64. Dying there kicks you out of the level and you get a chance to retry, saving warps you to a location such as the red cap entrance. Dying in SM64 is basically exactly the same as what happened to me in max payne, it put me at the start of the level again. Also note that I don't actually need to quickload, if you spam shoot it automatically reloads and puts you at the start of the level. Just because the saves aren't the same (an autosave can actually be seen in a save menu) doesn't mean it's not exactly the same thing happening to all intent and purpose. With SM64 you're not leaving a level through the pause menu, you're saving and quitting the level...

brassmaster

2011-08-16 07:53:30 am

Quote from Flip:

-Brassmaster
What sort of total time would you estimate resets saves over a traditional SS?

For spots you have to wait for NPCs, around 30 seconds.

For spots where you have to kill everyone, but the guys from the previous area could get in doesn't really save time, but helps in knowing which enemies to kill since they all look the same.

The one confirmed walking scene skip saves 5 seconds of walking, but it also makes it easier to dodge enemies right after that area. We haven't found any more yet, but we arent done looking.

I can come up with more examples if you like, but in total, if loading screens do not count, then a few minutes, probably around 4 or 5. If loading screens do count, then not much over 1 minute (and I'd say no for this game on the category).

YoukaiDragoon

Edit history:

YoukaiDragoon: 2011-08-16 04:01:46 pm

2011-08-16 04:01:16 pm

FYI, Borderlands is a perfect example of a game that would benefit from this. Way back when, my initial testing of a true SS put the time around 8 hours. Based on my segmented run time a SS with resets (which would allow you to abuse power leveling) could bring that down to around 3 hours probably.

ExplodingCabbage

2011-08-17 04:08:44 am

The question of whether post-death behaviour counts as a reset is turning out to be more complex and contentious than I would've imagined.

I would've thought that there's a simple test to determine whether the behaviour a game gives upon death is the same as the behaviour it gives upon loading:

You're attempting a segment of a segmented run, and you die. The game fades to black and a moment later you're, in some sense, at an earlier point in game. Do you:
a) Immediately reattempt the segment, because the game always puts you in exactly the situation you'd be in if you had loaded
b) Sometimes quit to the menu and load your save, because the game has loads of autosaves that you've triggered mid-segment and dying has caused you to load a later save-point than the one your segment starts from. If you die shortly after the start of your segment, then you can do another attempt immediately after dying
c) Sometimes quit to the menu and load your save, because the game loads the autosave at the start of the level when you die, and your segment starts mid-level. If you die shortly after a level start, then you can do another attempt immediately after dying
d) Always quit to the menu and load your save in order to do another attempt, because death isn't the same as reloading any of your saves

If the answer is a or b, then it seems obvious to me that deaths are causing resets to last save and there isn't really any other sensible way to look at it. (Indeed note that a and b are actually describing the same game behaviour; the difference in purely in runner behaviour / segmentation style). If the answer is d, then plainly deaths and resets are entirely distinct things. c is a more grey area; in many cases of c we would clearly regard deaths as triggering a reset, but even then 'with deaths' is a much more restricted category than 'with resets'.

In particular, the following are examples of cases where deaths and resets are plainly not the same:

1) In a game without manual saves, dying and saving/loading put you at the same location, but dying preserves your progress (objectives acheived, items obtained, etc) and loading resets it to whatever it was when the game saved. (This would be case d above)
2) Dying restarts the level you're on, saving and loading puts you in a hub world in which time is counted. Or vica versa. Or dying restarts your current room, but loading always restarts the whole level. These are all clearly case c or d.
3) Dying restarts the level in exactly the same way the resetting would, with one exception: dying reduces your lives by 1 and resetting doesn't. This is case d.

It sounds to me like OoT falls either into case c or case d. (Note: I haven't played it.) Max Payne clearly falls into case a or case b. I'm not clear on what happens in SM64 so I'm not clear on where it fits. In particular...

Quote from ridd3r.:

Dying there kicks you out of the level and you get a chance to retry, saving warps you to a location such as the red cap entrance.

I'm not quite clear, without having played the game, in what sense those two very different-sounding behaviours are the same. Tongue

You'll need to clarify this one.

The question of whether post-death behaviour counts as a reset is turning out to be more complex and contentious than I would've imagined.

I would've thought that there's a simple test to determine whether the behaviour a game gives upon death is the same as the behaviour it gives upon loading:

You're attempting a segment of a segmented run, and you die. The game fades to black and a moment later you're, in some sense, at an earlier point in game. Do you:
a) Immediately reattempt the segment, because the game always puts you in [i]exactly[/i] the situation you'd be in if you had loaded
b) Sometimes quit to the menu and load your save, because the game has loads of autosaves that you've triggered mid-segment and dying has caused you to load a later save-point than the one your segment starts from. If you die shortly after the start of your segment, then you [i]can[/i] do another attempt immediately after dying
c) Sometimes quit to the menu and load your save, because the game loads the autosave at the start of the level when you die, and your segment starts mid-level. If you die shortly after a level start, then you [i]can[/i] do another attempt immediately after dying
d) Always quit to the menu and load your save in order to do another attempt, because death isn't the same as reloading any of your saves
 
If the answer is a or b, then it seems obvious to me that deaths are causing resets to last save and there isn't really any other sensible way to look at it. (Indeed note that a and b are actually describing the same game behaviour; the difference in purely in runner behaviour / segmentation style). If the answer is d, then plainly deaths and resets are entirely distinct things. c is a more grey area; in many cases of c we would clearly regard deaths as triggering a reset, but even then 'with deaths' is a much more restricted category than 'with resets'.

In particular, the following are examples of cases where deaths and resets are plainly [i]not[/i] the same:

1) In a game without manual saves, dying and saving/loading put you at the same location, but dying preserves your progress (objectives acheived, items obtained, etc) and loading resets it to whatever it was when the game saved. (This would be case d above)
2) Dying restarts the level you're on, saving and loading puts you in a hub world in which time is counted. Or vica versa. Or dying restarts your current room, but loading always restarts the whole level. These are all clearly case c or d.
3) Dying restarts the level in exactly the same way the resetting would, with one exception: dying reduces your lives by 1 and resetting doesn't. This is case d.

It sounds to me like OoT falls either into case c or case d. (Note: I haven't played it.) Max Payne clearly falls into case a or case b. I'm not clear on what happens in SM64 so I'm not clear on where it fits. In particular...

[quote="ridd3r."]Dying there kicks you out of the level and you get a chance to retry, saving warps you to a location such as the red cap entrance.[/quote]

I'm not quite clear, without having played the game, in what sense those two very different-sounding behaviours are the same. :P You'll need to clarify this one.

ridd3r.

Edit history:

ridd3r.: 2011-08-17 05:32:38 am

2011-08-17 05:31:41 am

we have lift off

Quote from ExplodingCabbage:

Quote from ridd3r.:

Dying there kicks you out of the level and you get a chance to retry, saving warps you to a location such as the red cap entrance.

I'm not quite clear, without having played the game, in what sense those two very different-sounding behaviours are the same. Tongue

You'll need to clarify this one.

They aren't the same at all, that's the point. I'm saying that dying has been used in other games to retry levels. Maybe not using an autosave per say, but with the exact same effect. SM64 and Zelda OoT are two examples where saving or dying does two different things, but dying in SM64 in comparable to saving in OoT. So, my point is it's difficult to distinguish the two in certain cases.

RingRush

Edit history:

RingRush: 2011-08-17 02:11:23 pm

RingRush: 2011-08-17 01:57:29 pm

RingRush: 2011-08-17 01:55:22 pm

2011-08-17 01:53:28 pm

"I'm aware of 2 other examples that do similar things: Zelda OoT w/ deaths (as in the current SS run) where you are allowed to continue from essentially an autosave upon dying. Super Mario 64 warps you to the red cap entrance when you save and quit in another level. These are both examples of autosaves being used in SS runs. I don't see how what happened in my old run is any different. As has been stated though, I beat that run over a year ago."

This is super-liberal use of the word "save".
In Ocarina of Time, if you die, you warp back to the start of the area you were in. However, if you were to turn off the console at this point, all progress would be lost. It isn't saving the game in any way, it is simply moving your location. It is as much of an "autosave" as Super Mario Brothers has - being sent back to the start of a level if you lose a life.
In Super Mario 64, using the menu to exit level is nothing like exiting the game. For one, if you load the game you appear outside the castle, while if you exit a level you appear in the castle. Secondly, again, resetting the console at this point would not keep your progress. There is no save of data, so how could this possibly be considered an autosave? And with no save, how can you call either of these situations anything but a continuous playthrough as defined by the classic SS rules? They may be similar to saves in other games, but the fact is they aren't. Period.

I'm not familiar with Max Payne so I'm not going to try to address it.

And I am interested in hearing the resolution to the question brought up earlier: whether these runs would use the in-game timer or a real timer. I was under the impression (from asking in #sda) that it would use an in-game timer, and I've been practicing DK64 with an in-game timer route.

"I'm aware of 2 other examples that do similar things: Zelda OoT w/ deaths (as in the current SS run) where you are allowed to continue from essentially an autosave upon dying. Super Mario 64 warps you to the red cap entrance when you save and quit in another level. These are both examples of autosaves being used in SS runs. I don't see how what happened in my old run is any different. As has been stated though, I beat that run over a year ago."

This is super-liberal use of the word "save".
In Ocarina of Time, if you die, you warp back to the start of the area you were in. However, if you were to turn off the console at this point, all progress would be lost. It isn't saving the game in any way, it is simply moving your location. It is as much of an "autosave" as Super Mario Brothers has - being sent back to the start of a level if you lose a life.
In Super Mario 64, using the menu to exit level is nothing like exiting the game. For one, if you load the game you appear outside the castle, while if you exit a level you appear in the castle. Secondly, again, resetting the console at this point would not keep your progress. There is no save of data, so how could this possibly be considered an autosave? And with no save, how can you call either of these situations anything but a continuous playthrough as defined by the classic SS rules? They may be similar to saves in other games, but the fact is they aren't. Period.

I'm not familiar with Max Payne so I'm not going to try to address it.

And I am interested in hearing the resolution to the question brought up earlier: whether these runs would use the in-game timer or a real timer. I was under the impression (from asking in #sda) that it would use an in-game timer, and I've been practicing DK64 with an in-game timer route.

Paraxade

Edit history:

Paraxade: 2011-08-17 02:17:00 pm

2011-08-17 02:15:30 pm

I don't even get why we're having this debate. Something looking or acting like reloading a save doesn't mean it IS reloading a save. If it isn't ACTUALLY LOADING A SAVE then it's not segmentation. There's always been a difference in the rules between saving and dying. I think it's going to be clear-cut the vast majority of the time whether something counts as segmentation - after all, we've had segmented runs and SS runs with deaths since forever and I don't remember the question ever coming up before.

ridd3r.

2011-08-17 03:01:37 pm

we have lift off

Quote from Paraxade:

If it isn't ACTUALLY LOADING A SAVE then it's not segmentation.

Technically you are reloading an auto-save if you die in Max Payne, which is how this debate seemed to arise. I wasn't trying to claim that SM64 or Zelda SSs are in any way segmented, just that the results of dying are the same and should be allowed with no problem. I think in a SS the result is everything, since no one is claiming any kind of benefit to dying unintentionally. Unfortunately it's not as easy as defining it as whether you're loading a save or not. I'm sure there are other games besides Max Payne that would be loading auto-saves upon death.

Flip

2011-08-17 05:02:17 pm

1-Up!

Brassmaster: I concur with you, Gears of War won't receive a SS w/ Resets category unless more dramatic time-savers are found.

@EC, Parax, ridder: I'm also a little unclear on why this is being discussed at length. None of the examples given (death in Max Payne, death in Mario, death in OoT, quitting a level in Mario) would qualify as segmentation to begin with. Saving and resetting the console in Mario or OoT would qualify as segmentation, and Save/Quitting in Zelda would qualify as segmentation. Don't read too much into a game's behavior after death. This isn't a rock hard ruling but pretty much unless dying kicks you out to file select, it won't qualify as segmentation.

Aftermath

2011-08-17 05:46:59 pm

Quits halfway

So, I'm starting to seriously run Darksiders and would like to know whether a 12 minutes skip out of 2 hours would qualify. I'd never want to do a segmented run of the game (there are a crazy amount of autosaves), but also wouldn't want to waste time doing an unnecessary sequence because reloading isn't allowed.

The intended way is this: There's a locked gate early in the game, it tells you to go to 4 different arenas on the map and complete various fight challenges, at which point the gate is unlocked and you get an ability (counter). Counter doesn't actually save anytime (contrary to what I thought earlier) and there's no other gain from the fights, just about 12 minutes lost. Just before you continue past the gate, you sequence break with some jumping and grab one of the keys to the end of the game.

The skip is this: You get to the locked gate, reload the autosave the game put there, then do the jump sequence break to get the key. From that platform, you can jump OoB and over the gate into the next area.

So, I'm starting to seriously run Darksiders and would like to know whether a 12 minutes skip out of 2 hours would qualify. I'd never want to do a segmented run of the game (there are a crazy amount of autosaves), but also wouldn't want to waste time doing an unnecessary sequence because reloading isn't allowed.

The intended way is this: There's a locked gate early in the game, it tells you to go to 4 different arenas on the map and complete various fight challenges, at which point the gate is unlocked and you get an ability (counter). Counter doesn't actually save anytime (contrary to what I thought earlier) and there's no other gain from the fights, just about 12 minutes lost. Just before you continue past the gate, you sequence break with some jumping and grab one of the keys to the end of the game.

The skip is this: You get to the locked gate, reload the autosave the game put there, then do the jump sequence break to get the key. From that platform, you can jump OoB and over the gate into the next area.

Flip

2011-08-17 07:07:53 pm

1-Up!

Yes. Darksiders added.

YoukaiDragoon

2011-08-17 10:45:39 pm

Just in case I decide to do it some day; what about Borderlands? As I mentioned in a previous post abusing resets to power level will cut the game from 7+ hours down to what I'm going to guess is around 3 hours.

Flip

Edit history:

Flip: 2011-08-17 11:19:17 pm

2011-08-17 11:16:42 pm

1-Up!

Quote from YoukaiDragoon:

Just in case I decide to do it some day

I'm not going there until you have plans to run it in the immediate future.

edit: the point here isn't for me to sound like a dick, I just don't want items added to the list unless a run is going to be submitted. No sense cluttering it up with "what ifs." I added OoT and DK64 on my own because I expect submissions for those games, considering how much planning has already gone into those routes. Besides that, the only game I've added so far is Darksiders because Aftermath spelled out the potential gains and said that he is about to run the game.

Kuhlgamer

2011-08-17 11:44:33 pm

Where Insanity and Madness Collide

Quote from YoukaiDragoon:

Just in case I decide to do it some day; what about Borderlands? As I mentioned in a previous post abusing resets to power level will cut the game from 7+ hours down to what I'm going to guess is around 3 hours.

half of which will just be setup for and then abusing challenge for xp to power lvl

Exo

2011-08-21 09:26:00 am

Sandbagging

I'm currently working on my "old" Link's Awakening ss route and resets would save 3-5 minutes (maybe even more).
Not only do you get to warp back to the start of dungeons but it would also make the rooster skip worth it because you can warp back to the cave entrance after it instead of having to fall down.

Flip

2011-08-21 09:31:04 am

1-Up!

Allowed.

YoukaiDragoon

2011-08-21 04:24:25 pm

Quote from Flip:

the point here isn't for me to sound like a dick, I just don't want items added to the list unless a run is going to be submitted. No sense cluttering it up with "what ifs."

No worries man. I'm still not sure if I'm going to do it or not. I'll bring it up again if I decide to do the run; after I run a couple tests to see what kind of time it would save.

CMiller

Edit history:

CMiller: 2011-08-21 06:31:56 pm

2011-08-21 06:31:02 pm

Halo was mentioned in the thread, but does this rule permit one to load a checkpoint upon starting the game, grab a skull, then exit back to the main menu and start from the first level? In Halo, picking up a skull gives you the effects for as long as your xbox is on. Being able to load a checkpoint at the start would simply enable you to have the effects earlier.

So would this be permitted assuming the time taken to load the checkpoint and collect the skull is counted toward the run time?

Paraxade

2011-08-21 06:35:52 pm

imo that sounds like NG+, not SS with resets.

Flip

2011-08-21 07:38:07 pm

1-Up!

Need clarification for Halo. The skulls allow you to finish faster, but you can't have them enabled before you start? Therefore the only way to use them is to go out of you way to collect one, and then reload a checkpoint to put yourself back on track?

scurty

Edit history:

scurty: 2011-08-21 09:34:41 pm

2011-08-21 09:24:59 pm

Quote from Flip:

Need clarification for Halo. The skulls allow you to finish faster, but you can't have them enabled before you start? Therefore the only way to use them is to go out of you way to collect one, and then reload a checkpoint to put yourself back on track?

Edit: Yes, that's exactly right. My gut feeling is that this is not allowed.

Flip

2011-08-21 09:58:55 pm

1-Up!

How much time is saved using said skull and how long would the run be without it?

scurty

2011-08-21 10:17:06 pm

It would be useful on 4 levels in the game where it could not have been used in a SS earlier on (these 4 levels are levels prior to actually picking up the skull normally). If you were to pick up the skull normally during a run (i.e. the definition of SS), you would be able to use invisibility on 9/13 levels in the game. Obtaining it before the run even begins enables 13/13 levels.

How much time? The first level is one of the hardest in the game. However, it is also at the very beginning of the run, so a risky strategy would be employed regardless. I'd say 2 minutes maximum is saved for a very good player. Second level, not much at all. Maybe 30-40 seconds, if that. Third level it would help quite a bit. However, the safest way to complete this level is also the fastest. It would help lessening the number of resets, but not too much with the time. 0 seconds saved. 4th and 5th levels don't apply. 6th level it would save about 2 minutes.

Overall maybe 5 minutes over the course of a 2.5 hour run. Not too much. The time needed to load up the profile, grab the skull, and revert back to the main menu takes at least a minute, so knock the time saved down to 4 minutes over the course of 2.5 hours.

It would be useful on 4 levels in the game where it could not have been used in a SS earlier on (these 4 levels are levels prior to actually picking up the skull normally). If you were to pick up the skull normally during a run (i.e. the definition of SS), you would be able to use invisibility on 9/13 levels in the game. Obtaining it before the run even begins enables 13/13 levels.

How much time? The first level is one of the hardest in the game. However, it is also at the very beginning of the run, so a risky strategy would be employed regardless. I'd say 2 minutes maximum is saved for a very good player. Second level, not much at all. Maybe 30-40 seconds, if that. Third level it would help quite a bit. However, the safest way to complete this level is also the fastest. It would help lessening the number of resets, but not too much with the time. 0 seconds saved. 4th and 5th levels don't apply. 6th level it would save about 2 minutes.

Overall maybe 5 minutes over the course of a 2.5 hour run. Not too much. The time needed to load up the profile, grab the skull, and revert back to the main menu takes at least a minute, so knock the time saved down to 4 minutes over the course of 2.5 hours.

Flip

2011-08-21 10:29:09 pm

1-Up!

Wait, I'm confused. Are all levels available from the beginning? How are you going to grab the skull from a level you haven't played up to yet and then use the skull in all 13 levels?