Zelda: Ocarina of Time - clarification on what qualifies as "large-skip glitches"?

Edit history:

Apasher: 2015-03-27 01:43:22 pm

2015-03-27 01:06:29 pm

As of now, the Ocarina of Time page states that Bottle Adventure, Reverse Bottle Adventure, skipping medallions, spiritual stones, and ganon's trials qualify as large-skip glitches. Ever since Kazooie's "No Large-Skip Glitches" run from 2006, there has been various tricks that has been found such as Door of Time skip (out-of-bounds glitch that allows you to skip the spiritual stones), wrong warp (glitch that allows you to reach the endgame as child link, skipping 90% of the game), and Get Item Manipulation (glitch that allows you to obtain the light arrows without needing any of the medallions).

Would any of these glitches be qualified as "large-skip glitches"? Would out-of-bounds glitches be qualified as "large-skip glitches" as well?

Thread title:

ING-X

2015-03-27 05:10:46 pm

umad

To clarify: Many people in the Zelda community now believe that "Medallions/Stones/Trials No RBA" is an inadequate definition of "no large-skip glitches" because of all the stuff that's been found since that definition was created. Boss key skips for every dungeon, wrong warp, and tons of other stuff has been found that makes the MST run rather questionable as being "no large-skip glitches". Every time I've told someone that MST was defined as the "No Major Skips" category they look at me funny (over the internet) and seem baffled by why a run that skips so much is considered the NMS run for the game. Some people were talking in #zelda a few weeks ago (when we were re-defining 100%) about redefining No Major Skips for this game, and I think the idea is worth at least considering. I don't have much investment in it since I don't really run Ocarina of Time (I'm more of a Majora's Mask/Twilight Princess guy myself) but I do know stuff about the game and I figured I'd weigh in on some of the stuff I think should count as "large-skip glitches":

1. Out of bounds glitches. Historically, the whole reason why the Ganon trials are part of NMS is because the original trials skip method was a clip through a wall into an unloaded room (a borderline violation of the old Radix rule about no out of bounds) to skip the entire lower area of the castle and go directly to the tower. By this same logic, all the boss key skips should be banned in NMS as well - they use clips through walls to skip the main dungeon and go directly to the boss. This is most egregious in the Water Temple, where you can enter the temple and go directly to the boss without doing *anything* except hoversliding to the boss door and clipping through it. Why is trials skip banned but not boss key skips? I don't know if "no out of bounds" is the best way to go about doing this, but I think *something* should be in place to get rid of the boss key skips, even if only for the sake of consistency. Additionally, going out of bounds allows you to bypass the Door of Time and go directly to the master sword, potentially skipping the entire child section of the game. Although you do have to do the child dungeons anyway as part of the definition of the category, Door of Time skip is probably the #1 thing that is allowed in No Major Skips that people say should be considered a major skip.

2. Wrong Warp. The reasoning behind banning RBA in NMS was that RBA has the potential to completely break the game open and skip every single dungeon. By this logic, Wrong Warp should be banned too - it lets you warp directly from the Deku Tree to Ganon's Castle and skip the entire game, and indeed the current MST route does in fact warp to Ganon's Castle near the very beginning of the run (although it doesn't actually fight Ganon until much later). If warping to the final dungeon within the first 15 minutes of the run isn't a "large-skip glitch", then I don't know what is.

3. Get Item Manipulation. This is an absurd glitch that lets you get the Light Arrows from the Deku Tree as a child, making getting all of the medallions completely arbitrary. This is probably even more broken than RBA, especially because of how bizarre it is (and the fact that it ONLY works on the GameCube and Virtual Console versions of the game - on all other versions it crashes).

Those are the ones that come to mind right now; others may be able to think of others.

To clarify: Many people in the Zelda community now believe that "Medallions/Stones/Trials No RBA" is an inadequate definition of "no large-skip glitches" because of all the stuff that's been found since that definition was created. Boss key skips for every dungeon, wrong warp, and tons of other stuff has been found that makes the MST run rather questionable as being "no large-skip glitches". Every time I've told someone that MST was defined as the "No Major Skips" category they look at me funny (over the internet) and seem baffled by why a run that skips so much is considered the NMS run for the game. Some people were talking in #zelda a few weeks ago (when we were re-defining 100%) about redefining No Major Skips for this game, and I think the idea is worth at least considering. I don't have much investment in it since I don't really run Ocarina of Time (I'm more of a Majora's Mask/Twilight Princess guy myself) but I do know stuff about the game and I figured I'd weigh in on some of the stuff I think should count as "large-skip glitches":

1. Out of bounds glitches. Historically, the whole reason why the Ganon trials are part of NMS is because the original trials skip method was a clip through a wall into an unloaded room (a borderline violation of the old Radix rule about no out of bounds) to skip the entire lower area of the castle and go directly to the tower. By this same logic, all the boss key skips should be banned in NMS as well - they use clips through walls to skip the main dungeon and go directly to the boss. This is most egregious in the Water Temple, where you can enter the temple and go directly to the boss without doing *anything* except hoversliding to the boss door and clipping through it. Why is trials skip banned but not boss key skips? I don't know if "no out of bounds" is the best way to go about doing this, but I think *something* should be in place to get rid of the boss key skips, even if only for the sake of consistency. Additionally, going out of bounds allows you to bypass the Door of Time and go directly to the master sword, potentially skipping the entire child section of the game. Although you do have to do the child dungeons anyway as part of the definition of the category, Door of Time skip is probably the #1 thing that is allowed in No Major Skips that people say should be considered a major skip.

2. Wrong Warp. The reasoning behind banning RBA in NMS was that RBA has the potential to completely break the game open and skip every single dungeon. By this logic, Wrong Warp should be banned too - it lets you warp directly from the Deku Tree to Ganon's Castle and skip the entire game, and indeed the current MST route does in fact warp to Ganon's Castle near the very beginning of the run (although it doesn't actually fight Ganon until much later). If warping to the final dungeon within the first 15 minutes of the run isn't a "large-skip glitch", then I don't know what is.

3. Get Item Manipulation. This is an absurd glitch that lets you get the Light Arrows from the Deku Tree as a child, making getting all of the medallions completely arbitrary. This is probably even more broken than RBA, especially because of how bizarre it is (and the fact that it ONLY works on the GameCube and Virtual Console versions of the game - on all other versions it crashes).

Those are the ones that come to mind right now; others may be able to think of others.

Apasher

Edit history:

Apasher: 2015-03-29 02:13:19 pm

Apasher: 2015-03-29 12:33:06 pm

Apasher: 2015-03-29 12:16:37 pm

2015-03-29 12:13:20 pm

One could argue that even if you bypass the Door of Time and get the master sword early, you can still go beat the child dungeons as adult anyway since they are part of the definition. The same thing can be said about Reverse Bottle Adventure, which is already banned in the original No Major Skips definition, so why allow DoT skip? Or OoB in general, since that is what you do to bypass the Door of Time in the first place?

Eternalspirit

2015-03-29 08:15:35 pm

Couldn't no major skips be redefined as no sequence breaks?

Apasher

Edit history:

Apasher: 2015-03-29 11:58:01 pm

2015-03-29 11:56:38 pm

Quote from Eternalspirit:

Couldn't no major skips be redefined as no sequence breaks?

That would be too extreme. I believe the purpose of the "no large-skip glitches" category is to showcase a run that doesn't use glitches that could be used to skip significant portions of the game (dungeons that reward you a medallion/spiritual stone, and the trials in ganon's castle)

Alko

2015-03-30 08:04:41 am

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from Apasher:

Quote from Eternalspirit:

Couldn't no major skips be redefined as no sequence breaks?

That would be too extreme. I believe the purpose of the "no large-skip glitches" category is to showcase a run that doesn't use glitches that could be used to skip significant portions of the game (dungeons that reward you a medallion/spiritual stone, and the trials in ganon's castle)

Might OoT not even be a game which could allow more categories than standard games? I'm not a site admin, but I think it could be allowed to have 'no major skips', 'no sequence breaks' plus the odd additional category from ZSR (SDA-sanctionised MST?). Then again that conflicts with the rule of treating all games equal …

I have no name

2015-03-30 03:42:43 pm

Obscure games ftw

Quote from Alko:

Then again that conflicts with the rule of treating all games equal …

If, instead of standardized categories, SDA went with whatever categories the community acknowledges, then all games would still be treated equal. In many cases it would still mean any%/100+%/maybe low%/maybe some other less broken than any% category, but it would cover the special cases where just those don't really cover what the community runs.

Personally I don't care about OOT and how this particular case ends up, but there is a potential solution there.

Eternalspirit

Edit history:

Eternalspirit: 2015-03-31 04:07:30 pm

2015-03-31 04:07:21 pm

Quote from Alko:

If, instead of standardized categories, SDA went with whatever categories the community acknowledges, then all games would still be treated equal.

I like this idea.

Radix

2015-03-31 05:12:38 pm

I'm addicted to games

Honest question, if SDA opened the doors to accepting all "community recognized" categories of Zelda <insert subtitle here>, would we get submissions on those in the near future?

ING-X

2015-03-31 08:44:44 pm

umad

It's possible. In general, the "extra" categories tend to be less competitive than the regular any%/100%/etc., which I believe makes it more likely that you'll get an SDA submission out of them. Highly competitive games/categories have a tendency to collapse into an asymptotic function of sorts where the WR keeps getting lower and lower without ever really "capping out" at any point where someone would consider it a finished product. The less prestigious and competitive a game or category is, the more likely it is that its runners will be satisfied enough with the current WR to submit it to SDA.

AlecK47

2015-03-31 10:09:48 pm

I think that it's worth going by community standards on this one, and probably for quite a few other games as well (I don't feel like trying to list them just now). Just because a category has a leaderboard page or whatever doesn't mean it's run seriously, or isn't there for any reason besides legacy/record-keeping purposes. Neglected/obsolete categories probably wouldn't get submitted either, I would think, and the ones that are just silly and/or for fun (bingo, as an extreme example) still wouldn't be accepted. There is a gray area that could theoretically lead to category bloat, but I think in general the community can come to a reasonable consensus on those matters.

mzxrules

2015-04-01 01:02:21 pm

zeldaspeedruns.com

Ing: I've definitely remember you talking about this before, and I still am wondering what will make No Major Skips stand out from Glitchless, and to a lesser extent MST. I think you should drop the "arbitrary" mentality and just think of what would make a solid category. When I have more time, I'll try to get more people to talk about this on ZSR for both OoT and MM (which could use a No Major Skips category more than OoT).

Radix: The problem isn't that you're not recognizing all of our categories (which I don't think you should do, especially when I'm less strict on what should be tracked on zsr), but rather that process of completing a run -> submission -> making a front page post is so slow that competition for a run would have to be almost dead for anyone to consider submitting it here.

your_name_here

2015-04-04 09:53:59 pm

Quote from Radix:

Honest question, if SDA opened the doors to accepting all "community recognized" categories of Zelda <insert subtitle here>, would we get submissions on those in the near future?

Are people submitting OoT runs for current categories as it is right now?

Alko

2015-04-05 02:44:51 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Quote from Eternalspirit:

Quote from I have no name:

If, instead of standardized categories, SDA went with whatever categories the community acknowledges, then all games would still be treated equal.

I like this idea.

Please don't put words into my mouth (although in this case I actually agree with what was said).

Apasher

Edit history:

Apasher: 2015-04-05 05:03:22 pm

2015-04-05 05:02:48 pm

Quote from mzxrules:

Ing: I've definitely remember you talking about this before, and I still am wondering what will make No Major Skips stand out from Glitchless, and to a lesser extent MST.

Depends on how No Major Skips would be defined (which is why I created this thread in the first place.)

Radix

2015-04-05 05:59:27 pm

I'm addicted to games

Quote from your_name_here:

Are people submitting OoT runs for current categories as it is right now?

Cosmo submitted any% last year. I can't speak of any others.

Apasher

Edit history:

Apasher: 2015-04-05 07:42:45 pm

2015-04-05 07:38:53 pm

Quote from Radix:

Quote from your_name_here:

Are people submitting OoT runs for current categories as it is right now?

Cosmo submitted any% last year. I can't speak of any others.

I should've clarified this much earlier, but I am interested in doing a No Major Skips run for SDA. Just need clarification on how it will be defined, since the current definition is extremely outdated with all of the large-skip glitches that have been discovered throughout the years.

ING-X

Edit history:

ING-X: 2015-04-05 08:54:58 pm

2015-04-05 08:54:19 pm

umad

I know back in early to mid 2009, Mike Uyama came into #zelda and specifically asked the community how no major skips for OoT should be defined. The result was what we now know as MST, although this was before many of the massive breaks discussed earlier came to be (like boss key skips, wrong warp, Get Item modification, etc.). I think it would be a good idea for the OoT community to get together sometime like mzx said and discuss this among ourselves, and then report back what ideas we came up with during discussion. I would love to see the same thing done for Majora's Mask at some point as well - that's absolutely definitely a run I would be up for doing.

AlecK47

2015-04-05 10:17:56 pm

I'd like to see what the community would think now, as well. I'd still like to see an MST run on SDA, major skips or not, but if there is some sort of NMS category that can hold up under current game knowledge, that would be awesome (for both OoT and MM).

Eternalspirit

2015-04-05 11:49:51 pm

Quote from Alko:

Quote from Eternalspirit:

Quote from I have no name:

If, instead of standardized categories, SDA went with whatever categories the community acknowledges, then all games would still be treated equal.

I like this idea.

Please don't put words into my mouth (although in this case I actually agree with what was said).

Made a mistake when quoting. Sorry!

Carcinogen

2015-05-03 05:31:51 am

YES JESUS COMMUNITY RECOGNIZED CATEGORIES ALL THE WAY

mzxrules

2015-05-08 07:48:49 pm

zeldaspeedruns.com

Quote from Carcinogen:

YES JESUS COMMUNITY RECOGNIZED CATEGORIES ALL THE WAY

you would think that more people would know that sda has been doing it that way for several years now.

In any case: http://forums.zeldaspeedruns.com/index.php?topic=1923.0

Naegleria

(user is banned)

2015-05-08 07:58:58 pm

Quote from Carcinogen:

YES JESUS COMMUNITY RECOGNIZED CATEGORIES ALL THE WAY

yes.

SDA-naming conventions can lead to straight up inaccuracies or beg the question (what is a major skip in any% no major skips?). While community-agreed names can suffer from these as well, they generally do not.

SDA lists SM64 120-star as "100%" which isn't quite right since you don't have to collect all coins/hats.
Bomberman 64 100% has the same issue, on SDA, one of them IS 100% and one of them IS NOT 100%.

Forcing all games to use the same convention since not all games conform to the any%/100% dichotomy.

AlecK47

2015-05-08 08:11:33 pm

Quote from mzxrules:

you would think that more people would know that sda has been doing it that way for several years now.

Indeed. And thanks for getting the ball rolling over at ZSR. I'll be interested to see how this all shakes out.