Zelda II: The Adventure of Link

2013-09-09 01:39:44 am

with some more sleep, I can point out that it's being within one block; the +0x10 is to make the entire range positive.
the odd bit is that $0203 is 0x84, so it's offset by four pixels to the right.

Myask/eternaljwh

2013-09-09 01:46:58 am

(when not on the 1/4 time of randomwalking )

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-09-09 05:19:41 am

2013-09-09 05:19:02 am

HELLO!

I have to say that chart is interesting and in hindsight, matches what I've observed. I think that's very good to know.

Most interestingly, if an enemy is just above you or just below you, he can *only* hit you on a random walk.

inzult

2013-09-09 01:31:32 pm

NewGame+ 9:53.35

Dark Link wouldn't let me have the best known record and the bots were very mad at me for some reason. But I feel like this is very close to being submission-worthy. Just need to grind out that last little bit of bad luck to get under 9:50. Ideal is like 9:45, give or take a second.

Whether or not SDA wants this type of run I guess is another question altogether, but I guess that's for someone else to decide~

garik16

2013-09-09 02:14:20 pm

Quote from inzult:

NewGame+ 9:53.35

Dark Link wouldn't let me have the best known record and the bots were very mad at me for some reason. But I feel like this is very close to being submission-worthy. Just need to grind out that last little bit of bad luck to get under 9:50. Ideal is like 9:45, give or take a second.

Whether or not SDA wants this type of run I guess is another question altogether, but I guess that's for someone else to decide~

New game + is usually submittable here unless there's no differences (obviously there are in Zelda 2). It seems like Mike doesn't like them for marathons, but for submissions they're fine.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-09-10 01:46:40 am

presjpolk: 2013-09-10 01:45:13 am

2013-09-10 01:44:08 am

HELLO!

Yeah it's just trick with Zelda 2 since there are so many effective categories. I've never been sure just how many of these SDA would want. I've *tried* to align the categories in a way that makes them SDA friendly, particularly by rewriting Extreme Rules as 100% AK, but it's a lot of categories.

Zelda 2 has people actively running:

Any% Deathless
Any% (Not on SDA with current route)
Any% No OOB
NG+ (Not on SDA with current route)
NG+ No OOB
100% Deathless
100% All Keys (Not on SDA)
100% (Not on SDA with current route)

Two of these categories are 'new' post-Thunderbird skip, where the old method just became a No OOB category.

garik16

2013-09-10 08:12:01 am

Quote from presjpolk:

Yeah it's just trick with Zelda 2 since there are so many effective categories. I've never been sure just how many of these SDA would want. I've *tried* to align the categories in a way that makes them SDA friendly, particularly by rewriting Extreme Rules as 100% AK, but it's a lot of categories.

Zelda 2 has people actively running:

Any% Deathless
Any% (Not on SDA with current route)
Any% No OOB
NG+ (Not on SDA with current route)
NG+ No OOB
100% Deathless
100% All Keys (Not on SDA)
100% (Not on SDA with current route)

Two of these categories are 'new' post-Thunderbird skip, where the old method just became a No OOB category.

From what it seems to be in SDA precedent, only All Keys seems likely to be not accepted as a category. The No OOB ones are questionable as well although "No Major Skips" has also been allowed. Almost certainly though:

Any%
100%
NG+

would be accepted, and nearly as likely, deathless versions of Any% and 100% as well.

nmaster64

2013-09-12 04:07:35 pm

Came out today for Wii U VC. Unsurprisingly, the glitches still work just like all the other releases.

Save states on a console are nice for practice. Tongue

presjpolk

2013-09-12 10:51:17 pm

HELLO!

Yeah. I did a PowerPak session this week to get ready for my own sub 10 run. Smiley

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-11-11 11:21:15 am

presjpolk: 2013-11-11 11:20:35 am

2013-11-11 11:14:26 am

HELLO!

Two things:

1. JN took down the last category that had stayed untouched in the recent Zelda 2 renaissance, beating Arctic's any% non-glitched time currently on SDA. 56:53 http://www.twitch.tv/pro_jn/c/3217911

2. We had a neat idea on Skype for a really hard new category. Any%, with glitches, but no up-a. Basically the first half of the run is any% deathless to get jump, hammer, fairy, downstab, and then straight the glove. From there you'd probably finish p2, then go to Rauru at around the standard any% 2-5-2 leveling (or would 4-5-2 leveling be possible? not sure) to glitch and finish the game. We're not sure if it should be a deathless category or just 1cc though.

My proposed category name was "Just shoot me now" due to frame perfect glitching AND 1-1-1 dark jump cave, but Any% 1CC it probably will be. Depends on how testing goes, on whether or not we want to make it deathless. Heh, could call it the NEW EXTREME RULES.

inzult

Edit history:

inzult: 2013-11-12 04:59:55 am

inzult: 2013-11-12 04:53:09 am

2013-11-12 04:51:32 am

uh. any % with glitches and no up&a would be the exact same as it is now, except you walk back from the hammer to medicine. like, the route as it is now never gets scroll lock until after fairy/downstab.

edit: i guess you would get jump and that jar by n palace first but i mean that's pretty minor

edit edit: i suppose the leveling would work out a bit differently since you could carry over unused exp from death mountain

presjpolk

2013-11-12 06:16:43 am

HELLO!

Oh right, I was tired yesterday. Smiley

__sdfg

2015-02-03 05:29:58 pm

D:

I was on a private thread a couple years ago regarding the drop RNG in Zelda II. The results of that discussion are hopefully old news to the Zelda II community by now, but since I've heard there's still interest in researching the mechanics, I'm copying the relevant info from that private thread over to here. What follows is basically my original post in the thread.

Here's a bucket of FCEUX for a small drop:

Code:

003612: A:01 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzc                 $E899:FE DE 05  INC $05DE,X @ $05DF = #$05  ; Increment 6-count, this time for a small drop
003612: A:01 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzc                 $E89C:BD DE 05  LDA $05DE,X @ $05DF = #$06  ; And then load that value
003612: A:06 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzc                 $E89F:C9 06     CMP #$06  ; And see if it's 6 yet
003612: A:06 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIZC                 $E8A1:D0 1C     BNE $E8BF
003612: A:06 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIZC                 $E8A3:A9 00     LDA #$00  ; It is!  Zero the counter for next time
003612: A:00 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIZC                 $E8A5:9D DE 05  STA $05DE,X @ $05DF = #$06
003612: A:00 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIZC                 $E8A8:A6 10     LDX $0010 = #$04  ; Load Mystery Value into X.  It's 4 here
003612: A:00 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzC                 $E8AA:7E 14 04  ROR $0414,X @ $0418 = #$01  ; ???
003612: A:00 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:NvUBdIzC                 $E8AD:BD 1B 05  LDA $051B,X @ $051F = #$82  ; Read RNG byte 4
003612: A:82 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:NvUBdIzC                 $E8B0:29 07     AND #$07  ; Actually, we just need the 3 low bits
003612: A:02 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzC                 $E8B2:C0 02     CPY #$02  ; This is a small drop, so skip to E8B8
003612: A:02 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:NvUBdIzc                 $E8B4:D0 02     BNE $E8B8
003612: A:02 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:NvUBdIzc                 $E8B8:A8        TAY  ; Load the drop at position 2 this time (A=2)
003612: A:02 X:04 Y:02 S:EF P:nvUBdIzc                 $E8B9:B9 70 E8  LDA $E870,Y @ $E872 = #$8A  ; 8A = 50-bag.  Nice!
003612: A:8A X:04 Y:02 S:EF P:NvUBdIzc                 $E8BC:9D 8E 04  STA $048E,X @ $0492 = #$00
003612: A:8A X:04 Y:02 S:EF P:NvUBdIzc                 $E8BF:A6 10     LDX $0010 = #$04  ; And now we're past the drop code

And for a large drop:

Code:

029149: A:02 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E899:FE DE 05  INC $05DE,X @ $05E0 = #$05  ; Increment large 6-count
029149: A:02 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E89C:BD DE 05  LDA $05DE,X @ $05E0 = #$06
029149: A:06 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E89F:C9 06     CMP #$06  ; Which is a 6
029149: A:06 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8A1:D0 1C     BNE $E8BF
029149: A:06 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8A3:A9 00     LDA #$00  ; So we zero it
029149: A:00 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8A5:9D DE 05  STA $05DE,X @ $05E0 = #$06
029149: A:00 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8A8:A6 10     LDX $0010 = #$04  ; Mystery value is 4 again
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzC               $E8AA:7E 14 04  ROR $0414,X @ $0418 = #$07
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:NvUBdIzC               $E8AD:BD 1B 05  LDA $051B,X @ $051F = #$D0  ; The low 3 RNG bits are 0
029149: A:D0 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:NvUBdIzC               $E8B0:29 07     AND #$07
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8B2:C0 02     CPY #$02  ; This is a large drop, so we skip the branch...
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8B4:D0 02     BNE $E8B8
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8B6:69 07     ADC #$07  ; ...and add 8 (carry is set) to use a different array
029149: A:08 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E8B8:A8        TAY
029149: A:08 X:04 Y:08 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E8B9:B9 70 E8  LDA $E870,Y @ $E878 = #$91  ; Item 0 in that array is a red jar
029149: A:91 X:04 Y:08 S:F1 P:NvUBdIzc               $E8BC:9D 8E 04  STA $048E,X @ $0492 = #$00
029149: A:91 X:04 Y:08 S:F1 P:NvUBdIzc               $E8BF:A6 10     LDX $0010 = #$04

If X is 1 entering this block of code, you get a small drop. If it's 2, you get a large drop. I think it's skipped entirely if the enemy's not supposed to drop something. I haven't looked into the code preceding it much.

As noted above, 3 bits from the RNG are used as an index into a drop array. In a standard NES ROM with a 16-byte header, you can find the small drop array at offset 1e880 and the large array at 1e888. Here they are:

Small = 9090 8a90 9090 9090
Large = 918c 918c 8c91 8c91

8a = 50-point bag
9c = 200-point bag
90 = Blue jar
91 = Red jar

I made a spreadsheet using the RNG table that powerofthepowerofthe posted [in a Twitch chat prior to this post]. It seemed to work pretty well: I'd check for updates to $0492, and on the frame I saw the update, I could use the RNG value to check which drop I'd get.

Then I started fighting a bunch of bots in a weak encounter over and over and noticed that the drops weren't going into $0492 anymore. It seems the RNG is bigger than two bytes, and the "mystery value" decides both which address should receive the drop and which address should be read to decide the drop. When I kept killing enemies, the mystery value would change. I don't know anything about the Zelda 1 RNG, so maybe that's normal, but it might be necessary to look into the RNG algorithm a bit more to account for this behavior. If it is normal, then we just need to determine how the mystery value is set. If there's a Zelda 1 mystery value with known behavior, then fantastic.

The RNG does update on every frame, so I don't think this will help you manipulate anything unless there's some clump of good drops that you can target by playing at a specific speed. It does teach us that the P-bag probabilities are 1/8 and 1/2, though, unless the sequence for some of the RNG bytes is really wack. Maybe knowing that is enough.

I was on a private thread a couple years ago regarding the drop RNG in Zelda II.  The results of that discussion are hopefully old news to the Zelda II community by now, but since I've heard there's still interest in researching the mechanics, I'm copying the relevant info from that private thread over to here.  What follows is basically my original post in the thread.

Here's a bucket of FCEUX for a small drop:

[code]
003612: A:01 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzc                 $E899:FE DE 05  INC $05DE,X @ $05DF = #$05  ; Increment 6-count, this time for a small drop
003612: A:01 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzc                 $E89C:BD DE 05  LDA $05DE,X @ $05DF = #$06  ; And then load that value
003612: A:06 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzc                 $E89F:C9 06     CMP #$06  ; And see if it's 6 yet
003612: A:06 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIZC                 $E8A1:D0 1C     BNE $E8BF
003612: A:06 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIZC                 $E8A3:A9 00     LDA #$00  ; It is!  Zero the counter for next time
003612: A:00 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIZC                 $E8A5:9D DE 05  STA $05DE,X @ $05DF = #$06
003612: A:00 X:01 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIZC                 $E8A8:A6 10     LDX $0010 = #$04  ; Load Mystery Value into X.  It's 4 here
003612: A:00 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzC                 $E8AA:7E 14 04  ROR $0414,X @ $0418 = #$01  ; ???
003612: A:00 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:NvUBdIzC                 $E8AD:BD 1B 05  LDA $051B,X @ $051F = #$82  ; Read RNG byte 4
003612: A:82 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:NvUBdIzC                 $E8B0:29 07     AND #$07  ; Actually, we just need the 3 low bits
003612: A:02 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:nvUBdIzC                 $E8B2:C0 02     CPY #$02  ; This is a small drop, so skip to E8B8
003612: A:02 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:NvUBdIzc                 $E8B4:D0 02     BNE $E8B8
003612: A:02 X:04 Y:01 S:EF P:NvUBdIzc                 $E8B8:A8        TAY  ; Load the drop at position 2 this time (A=2)
003612: A:02 X:04 Y:02 S:EF P:nvUBdIzc                 $E8B9:B9 70 E8  LDA $E870,Y @ $E872 = #$8A  ; 8A = 50-bag.  Nice!
003612: A:8A X:04 Y:02 S:EF P:NvUBdIzc                 $E8BC:9D 8E 04  STA $048E,X @ $0492 = #$00
003612: A:8A X:04 Y:02 S:EF P:NvUBdIzc                 $E8BF:A6 10     LDX $0010 = #$04  ; And now we're past the drop code
[/code]

And for a large drop:

[code]
029149: A:02 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E899:FE DE 05  INC $05DE,X @ $05E0 = #$05  ; Increment large 6-count
029149: A:02 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E89C:BD DE 05  LDA $05DE,X @ $05E0 = #$06
029149: A:06 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E89F:C9 06     CMP #$06  ; Which is a 6
029149: A:06 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8A1:D0 1C     BNE $E8BF
029149: A:06 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8A3:A9 00     LDA #$00  ; So we zero it
029149: A:00 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8A5:9D DE 05  STA $05DE,X @ $05E0 = #$06
029149: A:00 X:02 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8A8:A6 10     LDX $0010 = #$04  ; Mystery value is 4 again
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzC               $E8AA:7E 14 04  ROR $0414,X @ $0418 = #$07
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:NvUBdIzC               $E8AD:BD 1B 05  LDA $051B,X @ $051F = #$D0  ; The low 3 RNG bits are 0
029149: A:D0 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:NvUBdIzC               $E8B0:29 07     AND #$07
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8B2:C0 02     CPY #$02  ; This is a large drop, so we skip the branch...
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8B4:D0 02     BNE $E8B8
029149: A:00 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIZC               $E8B6:69 07     ADC #$07  ; ...and add 8 (carry is set) to use a different array
029149: A:08 X:04 Y:02 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E8B8:A8        TAY
029149: A:08 X:04 Y:08 S:F1 P:nvUBdIzc               $E8B9:B9 70 E8  LDA $E870,Y @ $E878 = #$91  ; Item 0 in that array is a red jar
029149: A:91 X:04 Y:08 S:F1 P:NvUBdIzc               $E8BC:9D 8E 04  STA $048E,X @ $0492 = #$00
029149: A:91 X:04 Y:08 S:F1 P:NvUBdIzc               $E8BF:A6 10     LDX $0010 = #$04
[/code]

If X is 1 entering this block of code, you get a small drop.  If it's 2, you get a large drop.  I think it's skipped entirely if the enemy's not supposed to drop something.  I haven't looked into the code preceding it much.

As noted above, 3 bits from the RNG are used as an index into a drop array.  In a standard NES ROM with a 16-byte header, you can find the small drop array at offset 1e880 and the large array at 1e888.  Here they are:

Small = 9090 8a90 9090 9090
Large = 918c 918c 8c91 8c91

8a = 50-point bag
9c = 200-point bag
90 = Blue jar
91 = Red jar

I made a spreadsheet using the RNG table that powerofthepowerofthe posted [in a Twitch chat prior to this post].  It seemed to work pretty well:  I'd check for updates to $0492, and on the frame I saw the update, I could use the RNG value to check which drop I'd get.

Then I started fighting a bunch of bots in a weak encounter over and over and noticed that the drops weren't going into $0492 anymore.  It seems the RNG is bigger than two bytes, and the "mystery value" decides both which address should receive the drop and which address should be read to decide the drop.  When I kept killing enemies, the mystery value would change.  I don't know anything about the Zelda 1 RNG, so maybe that's normal, but it might be necessary to look into the RNG algorithm a bit more to account for this behavior.  If it is normal, then we just need to determine how the mystery value is set.  If there's a Zelda 1 mystery value with known behavior, then fantastic.

The RNG does update on every frame, so I don't think this will help you manipulate anything unless there's some clump of good drops that you can target by playing at a specific speed.  It does teach us that the P-bag probabilities are 1/8 and 1/2, though, unless the sequence for some of the RNG bytes is really wack.  Maybe knowing that is enough.

__sdfg

2015-02-03 05:37:30 pm

D:

And here are a bunch of quotes from the ensuing discussion:

Quote:

OK so in theory, it's 1/8 for the 50pbag and 1/2 for the 200 pbag. IF the RNG generates each value equally. Using powertothe's data, I'll tackle that next:

< powerofthepowerofthe> Zelda 2 RNG hiword: http://pastebin.com/YesHrtZY
< powerofthepowerofthe> http://pastebin.com/H4cnxLdH

Quote:

average 50 pbag drop rate, run from the actual RNG cycle is 1/8 as expected.

Quote:

http://redcandle.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/zelda2-droprate-movingaverage.png
this is the average 50pbag drop rate, in a 10 frame moving average
there are occasions when a 50 pbag is very likely
takes about 800 frames to get from the start of the game to enter magic container cave
1500 frames if you're me to get the magic container
so per that chart, I actually want to get the drop *before* the container
and the pbag drop rate skyrockets
but right after there's a huge lull

Quote:

I was under the impression that the X register was the enemy index, which decides which of the RNG counters ($051B + X) to pull from (in a fashion similar to Zelda 1). Looks like it also decides the item destination here, if I'm not mistaken.

Quote:

...you are correct. X is the enemy index. I don't actually know how the Zelda 1 RNG works and didn't realize it also had multiple sets of counters. I saw the loword and hiword tables and thought it was just two bytes.

It looks like each successive counter starts cycling 8 frames after the previous one (so $051C goes through the same sequence as $051B, except it lags 8 frames behind). I'm guessing you already know this and are wondering why I'm bothering to say it given that if I remember right, you said it was based on bit shifts.

In any case, I think it's safe to use the chart to estimate how likely you'd be to get a drop, because I don't think the enemy index can move the RNG more than 40 places. Also, the game seems to prefer using the latter index values when it can, so it might be more like 24 places (if you assume 4 usable enemy indexes). If you want more precision than that, Polk, you could try going into the cave and seeing which index is assigned to each enemy given how you normally go through the cave. Enemy HPs are at $00C2 through $00C7 per Data Crystal (I tested it briefly and it seemed right). I don't think you're going to notice an effective half-second of uncertainty, though.

Lastly, lol p=0.9 spikes.

Quote:

I'm getting decent results if I get the kill around 25.5-26.5 seconds. That works for me. Smiley

Quote:

Let me see if I'm reading this right-- the game looks at what enemy you killed to decide which counter to use to decide what drop you get? In other words, if your sixth kill is, say, a bot or a bago bago on the same frame you might get different results?

Because when I was testing this stuff I would get different drops on the same frame with the only apparent difference being position.

Quote:

I assume it's by drop class, big 6, small 6, etc.

Quote:

The big and small drop classes share the same RNG counters.

The game decides which counter to use based on which "slot" the enemy spawned in. If you took diverging routes, it would be possible to get the same counter for different types of enemies if the game decided to track them both at, as in my capture above, slot 4. However, if you have two enemies onscreen at the same time, they'll necessarily be tracked separately in RAM, so they'll have different enemy indexes and use different RNG counters when you kill them.

Also, the RNG counters start going around the time you assume control of Link, so it's best to test stuff by making a common savestate sometime after that. You can find out the exact frame they start by watching $051B.

Quote:

Ok, that makes sense. What the enemy is isn't relevant, but which of the 6 possible concurrent spawns it happens to be is. That explains the inconsistencies I was curious about. OFC I did all of my testing in a weak encounter on the grass just outside North Palace so there were a whack of bots to fill out all the spawns and skew the results.

The result of all this was the Luck Manipulation chart on Red Candle.

If anyone would like more information, I might hopefully still have the logs I mentioned in the first post. Actually not sure. <_<

And here are a bunch of quotes from the ensuing discussion:

[quote]OK so in theory, it's 1/8 for the 50pbag and 1/2 for the 200 pbag.  IF the RNG generates each value equally.  Using powertothe's data, I'll tackle that next:

< powerofthepowerofthe> Zelda 2 RNG hiword: http://pastebin.com/YesHrtZY
< powerofthepowerofthe> http://pastebin.com/H4cnxLdH[/quote]

[quote]average 50 pbag drop rate, run from the actual RNG cycle is 1/8 as expected.[/quote]

[quote]http://redcandle.us/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/zelda2-droprate-movingaverage.png
this is the average 50pbag drop rate, in a 10 frame moving average
there are occasions when a 50 pbag is very likely
takes about 800 frames to get from the start of the game to enter magic container cave
1500 frames if you're me to get the magic container
so per that chart, I actually want to get the drop *before* the container
and the pbag drop rate skyrockets
but right after there's a huge lull[/quote]

[quote]I was under the impression that the X register was the enemy index, which decides which of the RNG counters ($051B + X) to pull from (in a fashion similar to Zelda 1).  Looks like it also decides the item destination here, if I'm not mistaken.[/quote]

[quote]...you are correct.  X is the enemy index.  I don't actually know how the Zelda 1 RNG works and didn't realize it also had multiple sets of counters.  I saw the loword and hiword tables and thought it was just two bytes.

It looks like each successive counter starts cycling 8 frames after the previous one (so $051C goes through the same sequence as $051B, except it lags 8 frames behind).  I'm guessing you already know this and are wondering why I'm bothering to say it given that if I remember right, you said it was based on bit shifts.

In any case, I think it's safe to use the chart to estimate how likely you'd be to get a drop, because I don't think the enemy index can move the RNG more than 40 places.  Also, the game seems to prefer using the latter index values when it can, so it might be more like 24 places (if you assume 4 usable enemy indexes).  If you want more precision than that, Polk, you could try going into the cave and seeing which index is assigned to each enemy given how you normally go through the cave.  Enemy HPs are at $00C2 through $00C7 per Data Crystal (I tested it briefly and it seemed right).  I don't think you're going to notice an effective half-second of uncertainty, though.

Lastly, lol p=0.9 spikes.[/quote]

[quote]I'm getting decent results if I get the kill around 25.5-26.5 seconds.  That works for me. :)[/quote]

[quote]Let me see if I'm reading this right-- the game looks at what enemy you killed to decide which counter to use to decide what drop you get? In other words, if your sixth kill is, say, a bot or a bago bago on the same frame you might get different results?

Because when I was testing this stuff I would get different drops on the same frame with the only apparent difference being position.[/quote]

[quote]I assume it's by drop class, big 6, small 6, etc.[/quote]

[quote]The big and small drop classes share the same RNG counters.

The game decides which counter to use based on which "slot" the enemy spawned in.  If you took diverging routes, it would be possible to get the same counter for different types of enemies if the game decided to track them both at, as in my capture above, slot 4.  However, if you have two enemies onscreen at the same time, they'll necessarily be tracked separately in RAM, so they'll have different enemy indexes and use different RNG counters when you kill them.

Also, the RNG counters start going around the time you assume control of Link, so it's best to test stuff by making a common savestate sometime after that.  You can find out the exact frame they start by watching $051B.[/quote]

[quote]Ok, that makes sense. What the enemy is isn't relevant, but which of the 6 possible concurrent spawns it happens to be is. That explains the inconsistencies I was curious about. OFC I did all of my testing in a weak encounter on the grass just outside North Palace so there were a whack of bots to fill out all the spawns and skew the results.[/quote]

The result of all this was the [url=http://redcandle.us/Zelda_II:_The_Adventure_of_Link/Luck_Manipulation]Luck Manipulation[/url] chart on Red Candle.

If anyone would like more information, I might hopefully still have the logs I mentioned in the first post.  Actually not sure. <_<

BlueInfinity22

2015-03-01 12:16:05 am

Question: I want to speedrun this game, but I can only stream HDMI. So I was thinking getting it for Virtual Console on my Wii U. I hear NES is the absolute fastest but that'd require me to buy another capture device to stream my NES but since I know I will never be on the level of others I'm fine with the one second delay every ten minutes on Wii VC.

However here's my question: Someone told me in a Zelda II stream that the Wii U Virtual Console version is so laggy/delayed that it's unplayable. Is this accurate? I was thinking I'd save money and just get it on Wii U for free via Club Nintendo but I can't find any threads or posts about this on GameFAQs, here, or on the Red Candle site. Can anyone help me out?

Thank you!

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2015-03-01 08:10:07 am

2015-03-01 08:08:46 am

HELLO!

It is, though I'm the one who told you that to begin with, so. Smiley

I have a Wii U that I hooked up to my Sony BVM D21F1U with component, so the only lag in my setup is from Wii U things (controller and internal video processing/scaling) and the lag is awful.

Twitch user Unwary seemed to agree with me, as well. He's done Wii U runs as a joke/challenge but the lag is just stupid.

If you have a really good LCD screen, I mean, maybe it'll be playable if part of our lag problems are an internal DAC, but you're also adding your own LCD lag to that, so... ehh. You can try it, but if you have difficulty doing things, it's going to be because of lag.