Zelda II: The Adventure of Link

2012-09-19 01:07:53 pm

Hi I'm Kryssstal

You could just do a run that fulfills multiple goals if you want, like ALttP 100% as played for SDA is both "all bosses" and "100% item collection" (in addition to a blanket "no out of bounds" rule and being deathless/savewarpless). You may think 100% in that game means you'd have to kill every boss anyway, but with the right glitching you could skip both Agahnim fights and Ganon himself (which would be basically the same thing as Thunderbird skip), and even some weird stuff like making the bosses in Ganon's Tower drop extra hearts.

To a certain degree, definitions seem to go by whatever the subcommunity feels like competing on the most as an arbitrary category.

presjpolk

2012-09-19 01:46:39 pm

HELLO!

Fair enough guys on the 100% thing not generally referring to all bosses.

I'll just bow out , sinc obviously Marlie Tang is right, and who runs what will determine what categories matter. Smiley

Arctic_Eagle

2012-09-19 03:43:08 pm

Quote from Marlie Tang:

To a certain degree, definitions seem to go by whatever the subcommunity feels like competing on the most as an arbitrary category.

Yeah, you could say that, and that's why I feel most reluctant to allow the fairy glitch in my up+a and deaths variation (0:57.43) since those are the Twin Galaxies rules for minimalist fastest completion of Zelda II. Rodrigo Lopes and me have exchanged Twin Galaxies records in that category a couple of times through the past few years, and I had no intentions to do an improvement in the near future. But disallowing the fairy glitch in that category and allowing it in the 1:07.43 seems a contadiction.

However I'm open to allowing the fairy glitch in the no deaths, no warps variation if feasel and other people competing on it really wants to. There seem to be some disagreement about what would be the best decision, and both feasel and me are more or less competing on it as we speak, so some sort of clarification would be most helpful.

[quote="Marlie Tang"]
To a certain degree, definitions seem to go by whatever the subcommunity feels like competing on the most as an arbitrary category.[/quote]

Yeah, you could say that, and that's why I feel most reluctant to allow the fairy glitch in my up+a and deaths variation (0:57.43) since those are the Twin Galaxies rules for minimalist fastest completion of Zelda II. Rodrigo Lopes and me have exchanged Twin Galaxies records in that category a couple of times through the past few years, and I had no intentions to do an improvement in the near future. But disallowing the fairy glitch in that category and allowing it in the 1:07.43 seems a contadiction.

However I'm open to allowing the fairy glitch in the no deaths, no warps variation if feasel and other people competing on it really wants to. There seem to be some disagreement about what would be the best decision, and both feasel and me are more or less competing on it as we speak, so some sort of clarification would be most helpful.

PJ

2012-09-19 03:53:21 pm

Is PJ

Please don't use TG as a guideline for rules. After all, they just banned using the crouch stab in Ocarina of Time speed runs.

At first I thought fairy glitch should be banned for everything except the major skips run. I think I agree now with what inzult and Solairflaire said: fairy glitch itself is ok but screen scroll glitch isn't. Again, I'm not at all relevant in this discussion, but that ruling does seem to make sense.

UraniumAnchor

2012-09-19 03:54:08 pm

Not a walrus

Quote from PJ:

After all, they just banned using the crouch stab in Ocarina of Time speed runs.

what

PJ

Edit history:

PJ: 2012-09-19 03:55:17 pm

2012-09-19 03:55:06 pm

Is PJ

Yup. Because you can abuse the way that it determines crouch stab power, they thought it was a glitch and banned it. GG.

Arctic_Eagle

2012-09-19 04:15:36 pm

Quote from PJ:

At first I thought fairy glitch should be banned for everything except the major skips run. I think I agree now with what inzult and Solairflaire said: fairy glitch itself is ok but screen scroll glitch isn't. Again, I'm not at all relevant in this discussion, but that ruling does seem to make sense.

Did I misinterpret what inzult wrote???:

Quote from inzult:

I would think that if you wanted to make a run with the fairy glitch you might as well go all out. I would also think that it would call for a new category, since it's more than just the normal run but you can skip 1 boss..

Quote from inzult:

Quote from Solairflaire:

I'm not certain the Fairy Glitch itself should be considered a separate category. Obviously, the East Hyrule skip (or Barrier Skip as its being called in a lot of streams) would be a Major Skips category.

Right, yeah, the screen scrolling glitch and the fairy glitch are indeed two distinct glitches. And you can view it as glitch and glitch lite if you want. The way they work is very different, but what you end up doing is the same, taking exits in places where there's not supposed to be exits.

Basically, I want to see the fairy glitch used in a run, but I think as far as categories go it has to be a new one.

[quote="PJ"]
At first I thought fairy glitch should be banned for everything except the major skips run.  I think I agree now with what inzult and Solairflaire said: fairy glitch itself is ok but screen scroll glitch isn't.  Again, I'm not at all relevant in this discussion, but that ruling does seem to make sense.[/quote]

Did I misinterpret what inzult wrote???: [quote="inzult"]I would think that if you wanted to make a run with the fairy glitch you might as well go all out. I would also think that it would call for a new category, since it's more than just the normal run but you can skip 1 boss..[/quote]

[quote="inzult"][quote="Solairflaire"]I'm not certain the Fairy Glitch itself should be considered a separate category. Obviously, the East Hyrule skip (or Barrier Skip as its being called in a lot of streams) would be a Major Skips category.[/quote]
Right, yeah, the screen scrolling glitch and the fairy glitch are indeed two distinct glitches. And you can view it as glitch and glitch lite if you want. The way they work is very different, but what you end up doing is the same, taking exits in places where there's not supposed to be exits.

Basically, I want to see the fairy glitch used in a run, but I think as far as categories go it has to be a new one. [/quote]

feasel

Edit history:

feasel: 2012-09-19 09:04:18 pm

feasel: 2012-09-19 06:30:01 pm

2012-09-19 06:29:26 pm

difficult and stupidly random

The simplest way to divide things up is probably glitched (barrier skip, thunderbird skip, healer glitch, other OOB/wrong-warps) versus glitchelss (nothing but fairying thru locked doors). Otherwise you'd have to allow fairying off screen in one spot but not another, which seems kind of weird.

As for allowing the thunderbird skip in the no-deaths/no-up-A category: I don't really feel strongly one way or the other. I'll play however the consensus is.

PJ

2012-09-19 08:05:15 pm

Is PJ

Oh, my mistake. You're right, Arctic_Eagle! I guess I don't agree with inzult after all. Tongue

feasel

Edit history:

feasel: 2012-09-19 09:14:38 pm

feasel: 2012-09-19 09:03:49 pm

2012-09-19 09:03:22 pm

difficult and stupidly random

The "major skips" version of the game looks kind of interesting. I may give it a try.

Svenne

Edit history:

Svenne: 2012-09-20 04:34:38 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 04:22:17 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 03:51:16 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 03:48:58 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 03:47:50 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 03:46:46 am

2012-09-20 03:44:03 am

Smörgåsbord

I agree with most that have been said, but I'm more concern over 100%. I see no reason to use the barrier skip in that run, well not yet, but the thunderbird-skip, yeah for sure. But is thunderbird-skip alone worth doing 2 different categories over? I don't think so. (this train of thought only applies for 100%) but I guess could apply for all the rest.

Pro_JN would not wanna go after the "major skips" category so I guess you have a freebee there feasel! Wink

Edit: Glitchless sounds like a TG thing. But Pro_JN could do both ways, with or without the thunderbird, so it doesin't matter for him.

@ A-M: I finished the game first time last week! So I guess we will have some funny races coming up! (I got your Skype now!^^)

feasel

Edit history:

feasel: 2012-09-20 05:51:53 am

feasel: 2012-09-20 05:51:25 am

feasel: 2012-09-20 05:43:37 am

feasel: 2012-09-20 05:19:34 am

feasel: 2012-09-20 05:13:33 am

feasel: 2012-09-20 04:47:37 am

feasel: 2012-09-20 04:41:56 am

2012-09-20 04:30:12 am

difficult and stupidly random

Why wouldn't the barrier skip be useful in 100%? In most palaces i think it's faster to walk out the way you came in after getting the item, instead of defeating the boss. Palace 4 alone probably makes it worth it, not to mention skipping Valley Of Death.

As for the any% categories, what about the idea of merging the "any% with glitches" (or "large skip glitches", or however it ends up being defined) into the "any% with deaths and up+A" category? As it stands, "any% with no deaths and no up+A" is probably the more competitive, high-skill-cap version of the game, and "any% with deaths and up+A" is there because it's technically the fastest way to beat the game (though the leveling strategy is less complex, the XP/drop management and magic management are basically removed, and there's less risk of death since your health is refilled so often). It seems like "any% with glitches" is exactly the same deal: technically faster, but lower skill-cap. So maybe just merge them?

I'm not saying for sure let's do this, i'm just putting the idea out there to see what people think. The game already has so many categories, it would be nice to avoid having "any% with upA but no glitches", "any% with glitches but no upA", "any% with both", "any% with neither".

Why wouldn't the barrier skip be useful in 100%?   In most palaces i think it's faster to walk out the way you came in after getting the item, instead of defeating the boss.  Palace 4 alone probably makes it worth it, not to mention skipping Valley Of Death.

As for the any% categories, what about the idea of merging the "any% with glitches"  (or "large skip glitches", or however it ends up being defined) into the "any% with deaths and up+A" category?  As it stands, "any% with no deaths and no up+A" is probably the more competitive, high-skill-cap version of the game, and "any% with deaths and up+A" is there because it's technically the fastest way to beat the game (though the leveling strategy is less complex, the XP/drop management and magic management are basically removed, and there's less risk of death since your health is refilled so often).  It seems like "any% with glitches" is exactly the same deal: technically faster, but lower skill-cap.  So maybe just merge them?

I'm not saying for sure let's do this, i'm just putting the idea out there to see what people think.  The game already has so many categories, it would be nice to avoid having "any% with upA but no glitches", "any% with glitches but no upA", "any% with both", "any% with neither".

Svenne

Edit history:

Svenne: 2012-09-20 04:39:34 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 04:39:25 am

2012-09-20 04:36:24 am

Smörgåsbord

Quote from feasel:

Why wouldn't the barrier skip be useful in 100%? In most palaces i think it's faster to walk out the way you came in after getting the item, instead of defeating the boss. Palace 4 alone probably makes it worth it, not to mention skipping Valley Of Death.

I kinda thought placing the crystals in the palaces would be a thing in 100%, lol!

feasel

2012-09-20 05:02:22 am

difficult and stupidly random

I don't know if crystals count towards 100%. I'm not running that category so i'm not going to give an opinion on that.

But even if the crystals are required, i still think barrier skip could reduce the time by several minutes. Skipping Valley Of Death is pretty big, as well as skipping much of Palace 7, even after discounting the time it takes to backtrack to Darunia. It may even be possible to do the Darunia fairy glitch before doing palace 6, since at some point you warp to that cave in the swamp just north of the entrance to Valley Of Death anyway. That would cut out all the backtracking (and skip the flute-monster and 3 fence fights). Plus, the glitched route we've seen demonstrated in the video above was designed specifically for any%. I'll bet there are other glitched paths you can take that will jump around to parts of the game that are advantageous for 100%

Svenne

Edit history:

Svenne: 2012-09-20 05:29:19 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 05:28:08 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 05:25:57 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 05:21:53 am

2012-09-20 05:21:10 am

Smörgåsbord

I really hope the crystals would stay in the 100% category, seeing how they are ment to be used. You kill the bosses so you can place the crystals. It's not even the bosses that are the main objective, but placing the crystals. So if someone would find a way to skip the bosses but place the crystals, I would accept that! Smiley

It's only when you get the treasure in every palace and place the crystal in it, that it will turn to rock = finished.

Jesus, now I kinda want glitchless categories: one for any% and one for 100%. It can take awhile before we will know the best way for all the glitched categories, seeing how the two major glitches were published less then one week apart from eachother. It's not like we have done any serious research into these things before they got posted. I like to hear more suggestions on categories.

Solairflaire

2012-09-20 05:50:01 am

ConHuevos: I know it might look like your LUA script might've been overlooked, but it hasn't. I've gone ahead and tried it and it works great, aside from the few things you already know. I don't know if you made a new version, but if you haven't, could you find a way to display Link's shield?

Scaryice: I know it might seem like I'm ignoring you, but I'm not trying too. There are just other things going on with the game right now that I want to concentrate on. I hope you understand.

The crystals are tracked by the game. So, I think they should be counted toward 100%. I also kinda like the way Marlie Tang described the LttP 100% definition, which would include all bosses in addition to what it already is.

A route could be come up with for a glitched 100%, even with needing to do everything. It would be a logistical nightmare of trial and error, but it could be done.

If you watch carefully during the glitched run, the path through Palace 7 is actually just the "normal" route. None of the rooms are actually changed physically. They look really screwed up, but they're no different. There's only 2 exceptions, but that's so you can continue through it (the entrance and the fairy room).

One thing I thought of while messing with ConHuevos's LUA script was checking out the great barrier. I had always assumed that it went all the way to the top and bottom of the screen. It doesn't. If there was ever a way to get on top there, it IS possible to Fairy Glitch into the Great Palace without doing the stuff in Darunia first. If a way was found to get on top later, the fairy glitch would then need to be made a major skip (if it hadn't been already). Changing categories later would be really bad in my opinion. I guess now I'm leaning more towards making the Fairy Glitch exclusively major skips, if only so that categories can't get reshuffled later.

ConHuevos: I know it might look like your LUA script might've been overlooked, but it hasn't. I've gone ahead and tried it and it works great, aside from the few things you already know. I don't know if you made a new version, but if you haven't, could you find a way to display Link's shield?

Scaryice: I know it might seem like I'm ignoring you, but I'm not trying too. There are just other things going on with the game right now that I want to concentrate on. I hope you understand.

The crystals are tracked by the game. So, I think they should be counted toward 100%. I also kinda like the way Marlie Tang described the LttP 100% definition, which would include all bosses in addition to what it already is.

A route could be come up with for a glitched 100%, even with needing to do everything. It would be a logistical nightmare of trial and error, but it could be done.

If you watch carefully during the glitched run, the path through Palace 7 is actually just the "normal" route. None of the rooms are actually changed physically. They look really screwed up, but they're no different. There's only 2 exceptions, but that's so you can continue through it (the entrance and the fairy room).
 
One thing I thought of while messing with ConHuevos's LUA script was checking out the great barrier. I had always assumed that it went all the way to the top and bottom of the screen. It doesn't. If there was ever a way to get on top there, it IS possible to Fairy Glitch into the Great Palace without doing the stuff in Darunia first. If a way was found to get on top later, the fairy glitch would then need to be made a major skip (if it hadn't been already). Changing categories later would be really bad in my opinion. I guess now I'm leaning more towards making the Fairy Glitch exclusively major skips, if only so that categories can't get reshuffled later.

Svenne

Edit history:

Svenne: 2012-09-20 07:02:37 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 07:00:16 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 06:09:43 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 06:09:11 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 06:04:13 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 06:02:54 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 06:02:40 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 06:01:40 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 06:01:07 am

Svenne: 2012-09-20 05:59:34 am

2012-09-20 05:58:36 am

Smörgåsbord

Quote from Solairflaire:

One thing I thought of while messing with ConHuevos's LUA script was checking out the great barrier. I had always assumed that it went all the way to the top and bottom of the screen. It doesn't. If there was ever a way to get on top there, it IS possible to Fairy Glitch into the Great Palace without doing the stuff in Darunia first. If a way was found to get on top later, the fairy glitch would then need to be made a major skip (if it hadn't been already). Changing categories later would be really bad in my opinion. I guess now I'm leaning more towards making the Fairy Glitch exclusively major skips, if only so that categories can't get reshuffled later.

So far, me and the guys here in Sweden only got to the top of the entrance from inside the palace. If you land on the left part of the room before thunderbird instead of landing right = thunderbird-skip is right. Actually, we land on the barrier, get hit and then stand ontop of the palace entrance. IF you do this but dies, you will end up right beside the barrier, on the right side of it and yes, it's still there! Wink

So it has crossed our minds, but we have only gotten the result from inside the palace so far = ueless! Wink

I don't know how much Inzult and the TAS:ers have done with the fairy glitch, besides getting the result they wanted for the TAS, but it seems like every possible option needs to be investigated. We will do our best on our end.

[quote="Solairflaire"]
One thing I thought of while messing with ConHuevos's LUA script was checking out the great barrier. I had always assumed that it went all the way to the top and bottom of the screen. It doesn't. If there was ever a way to get on top there, it IS possible to Fairy Glitch into the Great Palace without doing the stuff in Darunia first. If a way was found to get on top later, the fairy glitch would then need to be made a major skip (if it hadn't been already). Changing categories later would be really bad in my opinion. I guess now I'm leaning more towards making the Fairy Glitch exclusively major skips, if only so that categories can't get reshuffled later.[/quote]
So far, me and the guys here in Sweden only got to the top of the entrance from inside the palace. If you land on the left part of the room before thunderbird instead of landing right = thunderbird-skip is right. Actually, we land on the barrier, get hit and then stand ontop of the palace entrance. IF you do this but dies, you will end up right beside the barrier, on the right side of it and yes, it's still there! ;) So it has crossed our minds, but we have only gotten the result from inside the palace so far  = ueless! ;)

I don't know how much Inzult and the TAS:ers have done with the fairy glitch, besides getting the result they wanted for the TAS, but it seems like every possible option needs to be investigated. We will do our best on our end.

scaryice

2012-09-20 07:15:35 am

I beat the game in 34:56 last night (up+A and glitching, if you couldn't tell). That includes 3 unnecessary deaths, so there's plenty of room to improve. It was actually the first time I beat the game candle-less, too.

Finished at 2-5-3. My leveling strat is to get to 2-4-2 at the hammer, which means you need a couple p-bag drops. Then get life-3 on the way to the water, and magic-5 from beating Helmethead. Then get the third magic container as Solairflaire suggested, so you don't need to beat another palace for magic-6.

I also should mention that I found an improvement from Inzult's East Hyrule video. The second forced encounter on the way back from Darunia, you can exit to the left and it takes you to the southern cave. So no need to walk there.

AlecK47

2012-09-20 10:13:12 am

I don't run this game (I've had it for less than a week anyway), but I figured I'd weigh in on the categories issue.

Regarding any%, I agree with feasel. Death and up+A just seems like a convenient way of naming the category so that people know what's going on, and while glitchless may be a bit close to TG, it is succinct and self-explanatory. Thunderbird skip would be nixed by default should the category be named "glitchless" though, and I would call it "no major skips" anyway, regardless of the TB skip.

As for 100%, I'm inclined to agree with Svenne, especially about skipping the crystals; allowing it would be a pretty glaring exception, especially considering that all the other 100% Zelda runs finish each dungeon. The only way that I can see around placing the crystals would be an "all items" run, which seems superfluous. Setting an arbitrary amount of how much of each dungeon can be skipped seems dangerous to me too, so as of now, I can't really see there being more than one category for 100%. Most Zelda runs, even 100%, have some pretty big skips anyway, and they don't have separate categories.

BTW, great job with the glitches thumbsup

. Looking forward to the finished products!

I don't run this game (I've had it for less than a week anyway), but I figured I'd weigh in on the categories issue.

Regarding any%, I agree with feasel.  Death and up+A just seems like a convenient way of naming the category so that people know what's going on, and while glitchless may be a bit close to TG, it is succinct and self-explanatory.  Thunderbird skip would be nixed by default should the category be named "glitchless" though, and I would call it "no major skips" anyway, regardless of the TB skip.

As for 100%, I'm inclined to agree with Svenne, especially about skipping the crystals; allowing it would be a pretty glaring exception, especially considering that all the other 100% Zelda runs finish each dungeon.  The only way that I can see around placing the crystals would be an "all items" run, which seems superfluous.  Setting an arbitrary amount of how much of each dungeon can be skipped seems dangerous to me too, so as of now, I can't really see there being more than one category for 100%.  Most Zelda runs, even 100%, have some pretty big skips anyway, and they don't have separate categories.

BTW, great job with the glitches:thumbsup:.  Looking forward to the finished products!

inzult

Edit history:

inzult: 2012-09-20 08:25:03 pm

inzult: 2012-09-20 04:04:43 pm

inzult: 2012-09-20 03:42:39 pm

2012-09-20 01:56:17 pm

Quote from scaryice:

and magic-5 from beating Helmethead.

It has been a long time for me, but would it be better to use the fairy glitch in the room with the falling blocks after getting the glove to quickly get out of the palace, then walk to palace 3 and pick up the extra exp you need for magic 5 in there? It looks like there should be enough.

~~e: be sure to press left in stead of right if you use fairy in the block room~~
nevermind you just have to be in the right spot (left side of the static block)

e2: there is indeed enough exp to be had, but everything takes a lot of hits to kill, so I'm not so sure.

Arctic_Eagle

2012-09-20 04:28:57 pm

Great to see the discussion going.

Quote from feasel:

As it stands, "any% with no deaths and no up+A" is probably the more competitive, high-skill-cap version of the game, and "any% with deaths and up+A" is there because it's technically the fastest way to beat the game (though the leveling strategy is less complex, the XP/drop management and magic management are basically removed, and there's less risk of death since your health is refilled so often). It seems like "any% with glitches" is exactly the same deal: technically faster, but lower skill-cap. So maybe just merge them?

I would agree with most of this, but don't forget that the life spell is skipped in the current up+a and deaths category, so the risk of death might be higher in that one (it's been over a year since I played it, so I'm not certain).

feasel

Edit history:

feasel: 2012-09-21 04:56:17 am

2012-09-21 04:50:15 am

difficult and stupidly random

you can skip Life in either kind of any%. with all the good runners in zelda 2 now, i'm sure regular any% will be done that way soon enough.

by the way, congratz on your 1:07:05!

scaryice

2012-09-21 06:52:42 am

Quote from inzult:

Quote from scaryice:

and magic-5 from beating Helmethead.

It has been a long time for me, but would it be better to use the fairy glitch in the room with the falling blocks after getting the glove to quickly get out of the palace, then walk to palace 3 and pick up the extra exp you need for magic 5 in there? It looks like there should be enough.

I timed it and it seemed like it would save some time (10-15 seconds?), but at the cost of being much more difficult and random. That includes getting a 200 pbag, fighting two mace throwers, and worrying about random encounters and the blocks piling up quickly.

I also did some emulator testing and with the route I used, something like 30 minutes is possible with perfect play and encounters.

Svenne

Edit history:

Svenne: 2012-09-21 07:09:17 am

Svenne: 2012-09-21 07:08:16 am

Svenne: 2012-09-21 07:07:41 am

2012-09-21 07:06:59 am

Smörgåsbord

Quote from feasel:

you can skip Life in either kind of any%. with all the good runners in zelda 2 now, i'm sure regular any% will be done that way soon enough.

That's what I'm talking about! Doing death mountain and getting the hammer without having the life-spell, in a dark run. It could be done, I guess you would have to sacrifice a Sword level and go for more effective life magic leveling on the way then? Right now, it seems mental but it might come to this!

Arctic_Eagle

Edit history:

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-27 06:55:02 am

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-21 03:16:06 pm

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-21 03:15:08 pm

Arctic_Eagle: 2012-09-21 01:37:26 pm

2012-09-21 01:26:38 pm

Quote from feasel:

you can skip Life in either kind of any%. with all the good runners in zelda 2 now, i'm sure regular any% will be done that way soon enough.

by the way, congratz on your 1:07:05!

Thanks! Yeah, it's possible to do a no up+a and no deaths without the life spell, but it's yet to be seen (death valley + great palace issue).

By the way I really respect you for going for the 7-7-7 stats ending that I've always actually detested (e1: not levelling attack after 3rd palace), and more or less proving that it's faster (than my route in the 1:07.43) when everything else is close to optimized. Though Death Valley + Great Palace is a little trickier to survive without deaths that way. E2: I honestly thought the day would never come, and I've always considered it an inferior strat not to level attack after the 3rd palace in console minimalist fastest completions. E3: But will I revert to not levelling attack after the 3rd palace? NEVER Wink