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Alright, the Ys II route is finally finished (see two posts above).  Related to that, here are a couple of demonstration videos:

Leveling - Druegar
Leveling - Zava
Item Glitch

The first two are my current main leveling methods before Druegar and Zava, respectively.  Keep in mind that these are done close to the EXP amounts that I expect to start/finish with, although the first video should end a couple of kills earlier.  The third one is a neat little timesaver, although it's very difficult to actually pull off.  There are 5 points where I'm thinking of using this: the "Light" magic chest, the Stone Shoes chest, the Silver Pendant chest, the Dreaming Stone Idol chest, and the meeting room where the Black Pearl is re-obtained.  Anywhere else?  Unfortunately, it can't be used to bypass events (although they will still attempt to start briefly).

Well, let me know what you guys think.  Mostly, I'm putting these up to see if anyone perhaps knows of a faster method of leveling.  The next step is to test the route in the Japanese version of the game, just to be sure the translation patch didn't change anything (doubt it, but just to be on the safe side...).  I'll put the run on hold for at least a week or so (no promises, though =p), just in case anyone can offer better route alternatives.
Alright, finally finished with my test run.  It took a while because I had to re-test some annoying things.  I ended up making a couple of changes, although nothing major.

Buying the Short Sword as opposed to getting it from Legth is much closer than I originally thought.  Initially, buying it is ~17 seconds faster, but I discovered that I wouldn't have enough gold to buy the Talwar if I defeated Velagunder at level 11.  Long story short, buying it and leveling to 12 before Velagunder should be the fastest method, but only by about 3 seconds, and even then I'm not 100% sure.  At the very least, Velagunder will be easier to deal with at level 12, plus I'll have 75-100 extra EXP going into the Ice Ridge of Noltia, which may help to save a couple more seconds, so that's the route I'm going to take.

The hidden 1,000 G chest in Tyalmath's room will be obtained, instead of the 2,000 G chest in the Moat of Burnedbless.  Slightly faster, and the extra gold from the other chest shouldn't be needed.

I'm also going to take a brief detour to the Roos' Nest for a Roda Fruit after purchasing the Hyper Cutter.  One reason is to pick up a Roda Fruit to replenish my MP before fighting Druegar.  And two, it's actually about a second or so faster to get to Gorto via warping (can't warp to a location you're already in, barring a minor bug), although granted, that test was done without obtaining the Roda Fruit (will be using the item/warp glitch).  Still, I figure the extra warping should be worth it to have full MP before Druegar.

I'm not going to be obtaining 3 Herbs throughout the course of the game after all.  I haven't managed to do so yet, but Dalles should be possible without them.  There was one attempt where I used them, when I probably didn't need to until the very end.  Either way, it's going to be a real pain with or without them; getting in the opening hits and still being in good health afterwards is usually not something that occurs.

I'm still not sure whether or not to get the "Shield" magic for Darm, though.  Either way, I won't be needing to make that decision for a while.

Well, I'm not sure when I'm going to get recording, but I'll probably start sometime this week (maybe tomorrow).  Even so, this will probably take a while longer than the Ys I run (if you couldn't tell from my infrequent Ys II updates =p).
everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music
Wow, this thread is like a monologue.

Even though I don't have anything useful to say, I'll just say that I looked over the route briefly and it seems good, as far as I can tell. Haven't checked out the filefront vids, will try to later.
Edit history:
Korzic: 2009-12-13 02:29:20 pm
It will probably be a while before I get a satisfactory segment 1 attempt, as I'm working on the run much less often than the Ys I run, plus certain parts within the run are giving me a bit of trouble (blasted shop menus >_<).  So, I've decided to upload a beta version of it (removed, see first post), which stops just before Velagunder.  Obviously, this still needs a bit of work, but comments/criticism would be appreciated, especially regarding the leveling methods (however, I should note that the current methods end up pretty much exactly where I need to be for EXP/gold).

Quote from Enhasa:
Wow, this thread is like a monologue.


Yeah, I know...  I know the Ys games aren't terribly popular, but there's obviously some people reading this thread, so I was hoping for a bit more feedback.  After this, I'll probably just quietly upload segments to the first post if nobody's going to say anything.
Edit history:
Korzic: 2010-06-30 10:35:51 pm
Since I'm not at all sure that I will continue this run, here are links to some videos of speedrun-related glitches for Ys II Complete (and a couple for the "Eternal" version, which does have enough differences to be distinct from the "Complete" version).  The details are in the video descriptions:

Skip Druegar (Eternal only)
Extra EXP from Zava (Eternal only)
Shrine Entry Scene Skip
"Early" Darm Battle
Dalles/Darm Scene Weirdness (no use yet, but might have potential)
Out of Bounds (no use yet, but might have potential)

There are some more glitches in the 3 segments I've uploaded to the first post.  They're explained in their respective videos, and unless I'm forgetting something, that should be all the useful glitch info I have for a speedrun of Ys II.

If anyone else wants to, you're welcome to work on this (as if you need my permission =p).  I might continue someday, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon.  Also, thanks to a couple of glitches in Ys I ("Complete" version), there's some possible improvements to be made to that run, but probably not much.  If anyone wishes to know these, let me know.
Edit history:
Korzic: 2010-10-10 03:17:31 pm
Korzic: 2010-09-25 05:39:24 pm
Korzic: 2010-09-25 09:55:30 am
Korzic: 2010-09-25 12:07:49 am
Korzic: 2010-09-25 12:05:00 am
Korzic: 2010-09-25 12:02:07 am
Korzic: 2010-09-25 12:01:10 am
Korzic: 2010-09-24 11:57:58 pm
Korzic: 2010-09-24 11:56:28 pm
Korzic: 2010-09-24 11:36:32 pm
Korzic: 2010-09-24 11:32:51 pm
Korzic: 2010-09-23 06:05:19 pm
Korzic: 2010-09-23 05:54:31 pm
Well, not much with the Ys II run (what a surprise, huh? XD).  I do have another segment 3 attempt uploaded (updated first post), but I doubt I'll keep it.

Since that's taking so long (between 3,000 - 4,000 attempts, I believe...), I'm thinking of working on an improvement to the Ys I run in the meantime, as a side-project for when Ys II gets too stressful.  I'm still trying to get all the details sorted out, but it basically has to do with whether or not the Feena EXP bugs (2nd and 3rd paragraphs of this post) will be of use, as well as implementing the other known improvements.

One idea is to get the Long Sword, abuse the glitches to be at level 7 before Nygtilger, but also to kill some enemies in the mine.  If I had simply killed the other mine enemies in my path in my first run, I think I could've had ~16,000 EXP at the Darm Key chest, instead of ~11,000.  Being level 7 before Nygtilger and killing more enemies would put me around ~21,500 EXP.  However, that 5,500 EXP difference between the methods can be made up rather fast on the mantises at level 8 (~20 seconds, I think?).

Failing that, I could always go with the basic idea of the first run (except kill more enemies), but I think at least one use of both Feena glitches would still help.

So, basically, it's a matter of how fast are the Feena glitches, and how much should they be abused?  Vagullion on upwards, I don't think the run will change, aside from minor optimizations.  I suppose I should ask, aside from what's indicated in my current run comments, are there any other suggestions for improvement?  One very minor one I know of is to eat the Roda Seed as the screen's transitioning to the close-up view of the Roda Tree, in order to avoid manually clearing the item's text boxes (still need to talk to the tree twice for the text speed glitch).  Another one is to use the "item warp" glitch (use a Wing while opening certain chests), except it's a fair deal easier than in Ys II.  The current spots I'm thinking of using this are: the Golden Pedestal, the Books of Ys after Nygtilger/Vagullion, and the Roda Seed chest.

Anyway, if I do this, I'll upload segments to the first post/edit the thread title.

EDIT: Probably not going to bother with this after all.  The best case scenario seems like to get the Long Sword, abuse the glitches 3-4 times (3,500/4,500 extra EXP), and be level 7 before Nygtilger (he goes down faster with the Long Sword at that level).  Since the Sapphire Ring sidequest is needed to get the Long Sword, the time gain from a faster Nygtilger battle is only a couple of seconds.  Additionally, abusing the Feena EXP glitches seems to only amount to a 8 or 4 second gain if used 3 or 4 times, respectively; using each one once seems to be a waste, since killing the mantises can easily make up that EXP.  This is, of course, assuming my calculations are correct:

- Feena rescued (1st attempt) = 240 frames (~8 seconds)
- Feena not rescued (1st attempt) = 210 frames (~7 seconds)
- Feena rescued (2nd+ attempt) = 244 frames (~8 seconds)
- Feena not rescued (2nd+ attempt) = 115 frames (~4 seconds)

- ~2,000 EXP to Nygtilger with Short Sword (1,500 Feena, 500 enemies; enemies unaffected on floor 3)
- ~3,300 EXP to Nygtilger with Long Sword (1,500 Feena, 1,800 enemies)

- Mantis x 2 (Lvl. 7) = 155 frames (~5 seconds)
- Mantis x 2 (Lvl. 8) = 70 frames (~2.5 seconds)

*- ~12,900 EXP at Mantises (Nygtilger Lvl. 5, ~1,750 EXP) = ~2:09.5 seconds + 8 second Feena abuse (1st attempt) = ~2:17.5 total seconds
- ~18,500 EXP at Mantises (Nygtilger Lvl. 5, ~1,820 EXP) = ~1:48.5 seconds + 8 second Feena abuse (1st attempt) = ~1:56.5 total seconds
- ~19,940 EXP at Mantises (Nygtilger Lvl. 6, ~3,260 EXP) = ~1:43 seconds + 15 second Feena abuse (2nd attempt) = ~1:58 total seconds
- ~23,930 EXP at Mantises (Nygtilger Lvl. 7, ~6,400 EXP) = ~1:29.5 seconds + 19/23 second Feena abuse (3rd/4th attempt) = ~1:48.5/~1:52.5 total seconds

* = My current run.  The calculation right below that is how it probably should've turned out instead.  Also, those times don't take into consideration the final two knight kills.

EDIT 2: Hmm, since there's potentially a ~25-29 second improvement between the "best case scenario" and the current run's leveling (might be slightly less, because of the extra enemy kills), I might work on this improvement after all.  After all, by simply killing more enemies in the previous route, I think that would've amounted to a ~20 second improvement (again, maybe slightly less).  So, if all goes well, the total improvements could add up to about 1 minute faster.  Besides, I think the only way to be sure is to actually do it.
I'm a bit hesitant to post this, but I think I'll end up cancelling the Ys II run, as well as the re-run of Ys I.  I haven't made segment attempts for a while, as trying to get satisfactory results is just too frustrating for me, and it's no longer fun to work on.  This isn't necessarily my final decision on the matter, but I feel it's what will most likely happen, even if I should start to record attempts again.  If anyone wishes to take over, please feel free to do so (not that you need my permission in the first place...).  That said, here's the remainder of the useful info I know of for a speedrun of these games.

First, in Ys I, when rescuing Feena, instead of taking the direct route to the first floor of the Shrine, it's better to take a little more unusual route.  My crude art skills aside, the red path is the one you'd take, and the blue one is where Feena would end up once Adol reaches the stairs.  It ends up saving a few seconds from the route I used previously.

And the other thing is a bug for Ys II that will allow you to move through enemies/NPCs (note that this doesn't seem to be possible in Ys I - doesn't seem useful, even if it were).  Anyway, I only know of one useful instance, and that is bypassing the rock golems that guard the Staff of Divinity.  It's still a good idea to get to level 4 before that, otherwise you'll have trouble damaging the mine enemies.  Just be sure to talk to Astal (guard) before hitting level 4/activating the glitch, as well as Legth (free Short Sword, probably needed to have enough gold for the Talwar).  Velagunder would probably be best faced at level 11 (~25 seconds), instead of 12 (~12 seconds), since the transition from 11 to 12 is actually a little more than ~12-13 seconds (I think).  Also, even getting the free Short Sword from Legth in the ruins, this still leaves you a little short on gold for getting the Talwar after the mine, so I'd advise killing a few extra enemies along the way (probably something easy, and near a screen transition).

These two discoveries aside, I should comment a little on the PSP version of these games, since they'll be released in English pretty shortly (mid-February, I believe), and someone may wish to do a run of those versions instead.  The PSP versions would probably end up being faster than the PC versions, in large part due to a feature that speeds up the text if you hold the confirm (or is it cancel?) button.  Also, the PSP version of Ys I allows you to completely skip the scene where you find the Silver Sword under the Roda Tree, whereas in the PC version, you can only speed up the scenes' text.  In fact, it seems that most of the useful glitches from the PC versions are in the PSP versions.  In Ys II, however, they made it so the action stops the instant you open the Warp menu, so the bugs regarding that in the PC version ("item warp", skipping the final screen before Darm) have effectively been fixed.  Aside from that, the only downsides to the PSP versions seem to be loading screens (minimal, but still noticeable), and not being able to select equipment/items as fast as in the PC versions.  Ys I is almost certainly faster on the PSP, but as for Ys II, it's a bit of a toss-up, though I'd say the faster text speed probably makes up for the loss of the warp menu bugs.

One last thing, here is a text file detailing most of the interesting bugs I've come across for the Eternal/Complete/Chronicles versions of these games (never mind the *'s around some of them; this was originally uploaded for someone else).  I doubt if any of them will actually be useful beyond what I've written here, but maybe this will help someone to find something else useful.
Mega necro activation!!

Since a year has passed, how do you feel now about updating Ys I and doing Ys II? I love the Ys series of games and very much enjoyed watching your Ys 1 run! :x
I'm actually still working on the Ys I re-run from time to time, but it's just as I said above - I don't know if I'll finish.  The segments are a bit hard to complete cleanly, so progress is slow (though I do have the first two new segments of Ys I uploaded - see first post).  That, and there seems to be a lot of technical issues to deal with; lately, Fraps randomly decides not to record the audio (or record it out of sync), so the projects are on the backburner again.  I do still want to finish these someday, but I don't know when/if that'll happen.
Well, progress on Ys II Complete is once again stalled (I'm restarting to incorporate the walk through rock golems glitch, as well as to try and omit the previous errors), and as time goes on, it seems more and more unlikely that I'll get a proper run finished, though I will still try (my motivation is pretty low, though). So, I've decided to upload one of my "single segment" runs I did of the game a few months back (using saves as a precaution). It is by no means perfect, but it's decent for what it is (I haven't done very many SS attempts of the game). Some of the items/armor I get just because it's a SS, in order to increase survivability - the segmented run will likely ignore most of that stuff. That's also the reason Dalles and Darm were handled as I did (segmented Dalles will likely be more reckless/quick, though I still don't know if I should take "Shield" magic for Darm). All things considered, I'd guess 5 minutes or so could come off the time (1:09:53 - starting at first movement, and ending at the final hit to Darm), though I'm hoping it'll be more.

Anyway, it's not much, but it's the least I can do until me or someone else does a properly optimized run of the game. Here it is. Enjoy!

It would seem both of us have lost our Ys desire as of late...but I believe I'm about to get back in to Origin while also working on Bionic Commando Rearmed. Korzic let's rock the Ys world again! Go go go!
Edit history:
Korzic: 2013-01-13 07:59:09 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-13 07:50:02 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-13 07:49:26 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-09 08:55:15 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-07 08:51:11 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-07 08:38:06 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-07 05:06:10 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-07 05:02:59 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-07 05:01:19 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-07 05:00:11 pm
Korzic: 2013-01-07 04:58:43 pm
Found a very interesting set of bugs lately for Ys II Complete, but since it requires switching between story mode and Time Attack (probably more than once, for the most optimized effect), I won't be abusing them for speedrunning purposes (even if SDA allows it, it'd be quite the headache trying to sort out the best possible route, not to mention how to time it).  Still, it's way too interesting to not mention, and someone else may be able to glean something I haven't by playing around with it, possibly some way to make it relevant to a "story mode only" run.

Anyway, the glitch is a what I refer to as "glitched Time Attack".  If you haven't already seen the stream (edit: here's a more complete video of the various oddities, though I still forgot to show a couple minor things) or Youtube video I posted, glitched Time Attack is activated by loading a file immediately upon dying there, which lets you select any file, which has the peculiar side-effect of the timer still running during the main game.  It also skips the text when activating events, or some just won't activate at all (like returning the Books of Ys to the priests).

Much stranger than that, though, is the developers apparently had one of each inventory and equipment item stored for this mode, even though you normally can't access any sub-screens then.  To get around that, you can die in TA, immediately load up a file (before returning to the title screen) that has at least one boss killed, and then re-visit its room to receive everything.  You also automatically level up to the pre-set TA level for whoever's boss room you enter, but only if you're under-leveled (technically, the EXP is never given, but the stats are, so if you go back to a boss room that would award less EXP, you're de-leveled (stats included) to the proper point - that is, whatever level your listed total EXP reflects).  Going into a boss room where the boss hasn't been defeated yet, if you still have the timer running, it automatically gives you the pre-set TA equipment (unless you load a save already in the room with other stuff equipped, which could render the boss unbeatable, as it is then inescapable - or, it could make it laughably easy), and once you beat it, it's off to the next boss.  To continue playing the main game with everything, you simply make a save after getting everything, and then load it during normal play.

Aside from potentially being extremely overpowered (try doing this with the glitched Dalles/Darm scene when entering the Ice Ridge, then warping away), it seems some bosses take damage from Adol having "Shield" magic equipped, just by letting them run into you a couple times, though I've been unable to get this to work for Druegar, Dalles, and Darm so far.  For Velagunder you just need to bring up the warp menu from the previous screen as you enter his room, and then activate it to have access to "Shield" magic.  Druegar, it seems like it should work, as sometimes your fireballs will pass right through him afterwards, even though he still bounces you around.  Dalles and Darm, I'm not sure, but I theorize it doesn't work because they don't actually seem to do collision damage, just projectile/other things.  In hindsight, this behavior makes some sense, since normally when an enemy runs into when you equip "Shield" magic, it takes damage instead, and Dalles and Darm don't do collision damage (Druegar does, so that's still confusing).

Some of the events are messed up, as evidenced by talking to Ruba in the videos.  If you try talking to him on the main Colony of Lava screen, he'll offer to let you rest, something that he should only do when in his house.  The result is you're placed out of bounds afterwards, which seems to be only escapable via a warp.

All that aside, there is one major flaw with activating this too early, and that is Gorto won't let you inside Solomon Shrine.  I don't know why exactly, but it's probably due to already having the Lila Shell by that point, which he normally requests you to get from Hadat.  To get around this, I recommend activating this after he opens the door to the Shrine, as I currently don't know of any other way to get inside.  Once inside, some stuff can be skipped/done out of order, but the game is beatable then.

Anyway, I did try this for Ys I Complete, and while I could access the save (not load), equipment, and inventory screens (before and after Yogleks & Omulgun, and after Dark Fact), Time Attack seems to have pretty much the opposite effect. No items or equipment are shown, but amusingly enough, it does have "equip" boxes where the pre-set equipment would appear (differs between fights, obviously). Saving, then loading the files in the main game resulted in not being able to open Dark Fact's door afterwards for the Yog & Omu one (no backtracking through the rest of the tower, unfortunately), and for the Dark Fact one, being stuck where the game places you after his death animation is finished. I think it's safe to say, unless there's a way to get full inventory and equipment like in Ys II, then there's probably not much potential for this in Ys I. A real shame, as I would've loved to potentially enter Darm Tower early, and see just how low a level Dark Fact could be fought and defeated at, among whatever other side-effects could happen with full inventory/equipment.
I've started picking up both Ys 1 and Ys 2. Currently my start for Ys  2 (up to the scroll) is pretty consistent and hovering around 18 minutes. Ys 1 my best time for Jenocres is 10:40, so that needs a lot of improvement, but a start nonetheless. I've been racing what we dub wizard% and scroll% (though I do talwar + scroll for some reason) a bit recently on SRL and they have been fun.

Have you found anything else over the last few months, Korzic, or only the most recent stuff in the last post?
Ah sweet, nice to see someone else interested in these games.  As mentioned throughout this topic, I'm doing the Complete versions, and it looks like you guys are doing the Steam versions?  You'll probably have the edge time-wise (faster text skipping), but I do feel some bosses are more smoother in Complete (hard to explain, but for instance, Vagullion - I feel like I can more consistently get good TA times in Complete compared to Chronicles).

Anyway, no new discoveries with regards to either game, but then again, I haven't really looked that hard recently.  I was doing SS runs here and there over the past few months, but I think I'll only continue that for Ys II's glitched route, just to get something up on the site.  Although, I'll need to ask the SDA staff if a run of that nature can be submitted, plus I need to time some of my decisions on where to activate/de-activate the glitch; I think the video below is a pretty solid route, though.  Ys I, I know I can beat the current posted time with a SS (same route, pretty much), but the new segmented route should be better, so I'm just doing that for fun; the old segmented time is very beatable even in a SS, it's just a matter of doing it (very difficult to actually finish a SS of Ys I - most attempts don't even make it through the Mine).  Here are those SS runs of the games (Complete versions):

http://www.twitch.tv/korzic/b/374208936



Looks like my Jenocres time is 5:25, though the posted run has about 6 minutes, it looks like.  The Scroll in Ys II, looks like the old segmented run has about 13:20; new one should be about 13 minutes; normal SS was about 14 minutes.  One has to consider these times were with getting the Talwar and clearing Gila's Basement, so time could come off if it's just up to the Scroll, and not a full-game run.

Also, a 3-round Velagunder kill is possible.  This is what I'm trying for in the new segmented run, but I did have a more consistent method; I've since forgotten what it was, though. =p  Either way, really tricky, but provided you do the same thing each time, Velagunder isn't luck-based at all (any problems would come from the pixel-perfect movement these games have):



Well, I think that brings my activity up-to-date.  I think I might try and continue the Velagunder segment in a couple days, but we'll see how that goes. =p  But by all means, don't let that stop you guys or anyone else from working on the games; who knows if I'll even finish any of my current plans for the games...  If you guys ever do full races of the games, I might be up for that.  Although Ys I would be really difficult to do that for, I think, but not so much Ys II.
Edit history:
Eddalius: 2013-08-04 03:24:10 pm
Ys II seems altogether more fun for me. Because you know, there isn't the Jenocres fight Cheesy

I just need to make the velagunder fight more efficient and improve my movement, a lot of time lost out of the ~5 minutes difference is from that. In Ys I I just need to be more ballsy with the Jenocres fight, I'm not taking all the chances I could/should take.
Edit history:
Korzic: 2013-08-20 01:53:20 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-19 11:59:56 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-18 10:40:31 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-18 10:38:31 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-18 09:15:58 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-18 09:15:38 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-18 09:15:01 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-18 07:22:43 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-18 07:22:26 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-18 07:18:14 pm
So, I was asked why I don't get the Silver Sword early to help make the second phase of the Shrine easier.  I remember testing this before, and decided the "intended" route was better, but it's closer than I remember, so here's some timings from when the routes split up to the second Mine visit when they'd be the same again.  Some things are pretty much the same in both routes, such as the other Shrine floors, the Minea scenes/shopping, and the trek to the Roda Tree, so those were left out of the equations.

Silver Sword early - 60s (Shrine B2, Treasure Box Key first visit) + 18s (Zepik to Mine) + 26s (Silver Sword to Zepik) + 3s (Nygtilger fight) + 23s (Minea to Mine) = ~130s

Silver Sword normal - 51s (Shrine B2, Treasure Box Key second visit) + 25s (Nygtilger fight) + 23s (Minea to Mine) + 28s (Silver Sword to Mine) = ~127s

As you can see, it's pretty close, with the "intended" route just barely being faster.  Although from what I remember, it seems like I didn't quite reach level 7 before Nygtilger with the early Silver Sword, just level 6.  Still wouldn't be too long of a fight, though, but would add a few more seconds.  Also, unless the Long Sword is chosen over the Short Sword, both routes miss out on EXP.  Early Silver Sword misses enemy kills during the first Mine visit, while the normal route misses enemy kills on B3 of the Shrine - both add up to about ~1500 EXP, so it's a moot point.  If the Long Sword is used, then both sets of EXP can be collected, but my gut tells me a Long Sword route is only worth it in a segmented run, and even then probably only alongside the Feena EXP glitches in the Complete version (because otherwise, the missing 1,500 EXP can easily be made up with 4 Mine enemy kills, which should take slightly less time than the ~13 seconds the Sapphire Ring sidequest takes).

So what this all means is that it's a judgment call for anyone doing an RTA of this game.  The early Silver Sword route seems easier, but the downside is evading more Mine enemies (getting the Roda Tree Seed is hard enough already, IMO - but then again, I tend to not use the Mirror there =p).

EDIT: Ah yes, I thought I was forgetting something, but I believe this bit mostly applies to the Long Sword + Feena glitches route.  The primary reason I dismissed early Silver Sword was because while it did still get me to level 7 before Nygtilger (and with a better weapon, at that), it also put me down 3,000 EXP.  The reason early Silver Sword lets one get to level 7 before Nygtilger is in large part due to the 3,000 EXP reward for returning the Silver Harmonica to Reah.  For a Short Sword route, this doesn't really matter, as the EXP values are still nearly the same upon entering the Mine a second time.  However, what makes the Long Sword + Feena glitches route so special is that level 7 before Nygtilger is still achieved, but the 3,000 EXP Harmonica reward is still available afterwards, which is very helpful.  On top of that, all Mine enemies I come across are planned to be killed during both visits.  So, it's basically the best of all routes, but probably too hard for an RTA to pull off (mostly due to the Feena EXP glitches; that, and the Feena glitches are not possible in the PSP/Steam versions).

EDIT 2: Hmm, maybe early Silver Sword is better...  Comparing my current best RTA time (no early Silver Sword) with an attempt I just did (early Silver Sword) turned out to be ~15 seconds ahead starting the mantis grinding.  Granted, about ~7 seconds of that was from mistakes (mostly Jenocres, which was a no miss battle this time around), and also a second or so from not equipping the stuff from Minea (no need with early Silver Sword/Armor - not like anything on Shrine B2 can be killed during the first visit with this route anyway).  I guess the easier time in the Shrine later makes up for some of the time?  I guess I'll need to compare this more closely with the Long Sword + Feena glitches route...

EDIT 3: OK, so stopping at the Darm Key chest, it seems as though an optimized Long Sword + Feena is still faster by ~20 seconds, give or take.  And the reason is because of the ~6,000 or so extra EXP it'll have (3,000 from returning the Harmonica, and ~3,000 more for the first Mine visit - seems I misspoke earlier when I said only ~1,500 was being missed out on from the Mine).  Aside from that EXP gap, the times were really close to one another, with I think the Long Sword + Feena route still ahead by a second or two.

So, all this to say: Long Sword + Feena is superior (but probably only in segmented runs), but for an RTA, early Silver Sword seems a few seconds faster compared to getting it the "intended" way.
Edit history:
Korzic: 2013-08-23 02:55:12 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-23 02:54:52 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-23 02:54:33 pm
Korzic: 2013-08-23 02:54:02 pm
Finally managed to beat the old Ys I segmented time with a SS (old time is 38:31 - the other 4 seconds of the currently published run comes from the SDA "save anywhere" penalty).

http://www.twitch.tv/korzic/c/2804292

The new time is 38:20 (timing started at first movement frame, and ended upon first black frame after selecting to read Book Fact, which is how I believe the currently published run was timed).  It uses the early Silver Sword route, as it generally seems to save about 10-15 seconds over the "normal" route (Long Sword + Feena glitches + normal Silver Sword would I think still be ideal, though probably unrealistic for a SS), plus it's a bit easier to finish a run (Shrine under-leveled sucks).  Unfortunately, there were a couple stupid mistakes right before and after Vagullion (who himself wasn't too bad), which could've brought the time down to ~38:10 or so.  Sub-38:00 is definitely possible, but I think that'll primarily depend on even better Vagullion luck (~25 seconds or so off the segmented time, but it can easily go much worse).

In any event, I think this is something I'll continue to do for fun, but if something good enough comes along, I may consider submitting something.  Not this though, too many ugly looking mistakes, plus it should be beatable fairly easily (well, disregarding the usual trouble spots =p - Jenocres, Shrine B2, Mine 1st visit, and Yog/Omu).  The fact that I can even beat that old time via a SS is a bit shocking to me, but it shows that the old segmented run wasn't as optimized as I once thought.  Not sure which run I want to continue first, though. :/
Edit history:
Korzic: 2013-09-06 03:34:03 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-06 03:19:36 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-06 03:11:05 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-06 03:06:01 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-05 11:37:57 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-05 05:25:58 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-05 05:24:01 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-05 05:18:33 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-05 05:14:43 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-05 05:13:43 pm
Korzic: 2013-09-05 05:13:00 pm
OK, so I was thinking that maybe early Silver Sword combined with less uses of Feena glitches would make stuff faster, making up some of that lost EXP during the first Mine visit (need to be level 6 with Short Sword, and level 5 with Long Sword, though 6 is preferred ASAP - can only kill very first Mine enemy otherwise).  It appears Long Sword + Feena glitches + normal Silver Sword is still slightly faster, mostly still due to having more EXP.  Even so, I believe the other routes are still more viable for an RTA (really difficult to do consecutive Feena glitches without screwing up), so I'll post those timings here.  As before, stuff that is pretty much the same was omitted from these timings:

Long Sword + Silver Sword normal - 13s (Sapphire Ring sidequest) + 51s (Shrine B2, Treasure Box Key second visit) + 19s (Feena saved 3rd time) + 10s (Nygtilger fight) + 23s (Minea to Mine) + 28s (Silver Sword to Mine) = ~144s (~21,980 EXP at Darm Key)

Long Sword + Silver Sword early - 13s (Sapphire Ring sidequest) + 60s (Shrine B2, Treasure Box Key first visit) + 8s (Feena glitches, saved 1st time) + 18s (Zepik to Mine) + 26s (Silver Sword to Zepik) + 3s (Nygtilger fight) + 23s (Minea to Mine) = ~151s (~19,680 EXP at Darm Key)

Short Sword + Silver Sword early - 60s (Shrine B2, Treasure Box Key first visit) + 15s (Feena glitches, saved 2nd time) + 18s (Zepik to Mine) + 26s (Silver Sword to Zepik) + 3s (Nygtilger fight) + 23s (Minea to Mine) = ~145s (~18,920 EXP at Darm Key)

For an RTA of Complete, the last option is technically very slightly faster than the second option (EXP gap can be made up with 2 extra mantis kills, in about 2.5 seconds), but one would need to do the Feena glitches more than once, which is of course very risky (unlike with the previous RTA plan, a second use of the Feena glitches would be needed with this option, so that one can be leveled enough to kill some things during the first Mine visit).  So, that means the second option is best suited for an RTA of Complete.  There's about 4,000 more EXP than the normal Short Sword + early Silver Sword route (no extra Feena glitches), but may make the first Mine floor more difficult (at the least, it requires one of the red plant things to hit level 6 right away, but that's a small detour).  On the plus side, Jenocres is more survivable, and the rest is pretty much the same from the previous RTA plan.

As for Chronicles/+, it seems like the Long Sword + early Silver Sword is the best option along with no Luta (Feena glitches not present in these versions, but can make up his EXP - as well as anything else needed for level 6 - on the red plant things at the Mine entrance rather quickly), but as I'd rather not time stuff for versions I've no intention of running, I'll let someone else figure out those intricacies.

EDIT: Appears one can actually receive 2,000 EXP when choosing to rescue Feena, but you need to be very precise with those button presses to have a prayer at doing so.  I've edited the EXP values above to reflect this, but it doesn't affect the times any (3rd option still requires two Feena visits to hit level 6 in time for the Mine, so while the EXP value changes, the overall route time doesn't).  Anyway, receiving 2,000 EXP also added the possibility of a better Short Sword + normal Silver Sword route, which comes extremely close to the Long Sword + Feena glitches + normal Silver Sword option:

Short Sword + Silver Sword normal - 51s (Shrine B2, Treasure Box Key second visit) + 8s (Feena glitches, saved 1st time) + 25s (Nygtilger fight) + 23s (Minea to Mine) + 28s (Silver Sword to Mine) = ~135s (~18020 EXP at Darm Key)

While initially faster by ~9s, the mantis grinding to close the EXP gap takes ~13-15s (8-9 extra kills, depending how much is needed to hit level 10), so it's very slightly slower.  What this allows is for one to reach level 6 right as you enter B3 of the Shrine, meaning all enemies except the Dinvel (sworded guys) can also be killed for EXP (albeit a little slower than what the Long Sword would do, so that hurts it as well).

This does also open the door for the Long Sword + Feena glitches + normal Silver Sword to take 2 Feena visits (instead of 3) and still hit level 7 by Nygtilger, but even for a segmented run, it'd basically take a miracle for all the needed enemies to be in one's path.  To put things in perspective, I think one would need something like 280 EXP upon entering the Shrine the very first time (I found it difficult to hit even 270 without straying from the "optimal" path), and then all the "extra" enemies one can come across when doing the rest of the Shrine (which also are usually off the "optimal" path).
Edit history:
Korzic: 2014-05-31 01:53:52 am
Korzic: 2014-05-31 01:50:32 am
I was told that a runner of Chronicles+ managed to do at least one of the Feena EXP glitches in that version, something I didn't think to be possible outside of the PC Complete version, but it actually is.  After some experimenting, I believe it works by briefly releasing cancel (assuming it's being held to speed up the text, which you should of course be doing in Chronicles+) after you hit confirm to rescue Feena, then hit confirm again.  So, the input sequence when choosing to rescue her in Chronicles+ looks to be confirm, cancel, confirm.  So far, I've only been able to receive double the reward (1,000 EXP total - Complete can get up to 2,000, if you're extremely quick), but I've no idea if more is possible, and I'm also not able to grab the reward, and cancel at the last moment to further abuse the glitch like in Complete (but I haven't tried terribly hard, so it still could be doable).  Still not convinced Chronicles+ in its current state is faster than Complete, but if the glitch can be abused to the point as it is in Complete, then that may change.

Not much else recently to note for Ys I, really.  I did do a TAS of Ys I Complete on Easy difficulty some months back (seen here), which revealed that the doorways on the Darm Tower balconies are not actually the same distance apart from one another (even though going either left or right loops around to the same doorway, one direction gets you there about a half second faster than the other, and which direction is faster changes from floor to floor).

Ys II however, has been broken quite badly.  Well, the Complete version anyhow; Chronicles+ seems quite stable by comparison, as usual (would love to be proven wrong, though =p).  It's more glitched TA shenanigans, so I'm still proceeding with my segmented "first playthrough" run (well, when I feel up to it - I at least made it back to Gila's Basement, but motivation is still overall low most days).  Anyway, the first major speedrun thing is a way to skip Ramia village altogether (seen here), which made the Shrine navigation a bit awkward without that as a teleport location.  The way I skipped from Gelaldy to Druegar was actually doable for Zava to Dalles, and then Dalles to Darm, cutting out even more of the Shrine (Druegar to Zava was not doable, though, nor Velagunder to Tyalmath, or Tyalmath to Gelaldy).

However, all of that is essentially negated by a glitch that fails to return you to the title screen, if you do so at a certain time.  One such time is at the very beginning of the Darm battle, just as the red glow fades that marks when you can start moving (or something like that - either way, it doesn't seem doable in the Chronicles version, but who knows, maybe it is still possible).  Anyway, the gist of it is that if doing this in TA, it kills the timer, effectively switching the game over to story mode.  Of course, if the game returns to the title like it's supposed to, it's not a problem, but something prevents it from doing so here, and so the game's ending can be triggered merely by doing a pretty standard TA up to that point, doing the glitch, and finishing off Darm.  The glitch can be seen in action at about ~3:40 of this video:



So, yeah, while I do enjoy TA runs, a run like that is just plain out of the question for me (basically, it amounts to a pause buffer trick, as well as finishing a TA run without the satisfaction of knowing your final time - yeah, no thanks).  I suppose there's still glitched "new game +" without major skips, but that's arbitrary at best, and destroys much of the previously established "glitched" route.  So, if I still do SS Ys II (honestly, not likely at this point in time), it'll likely be just plain old "first playthrough" runs, or perhaps "new game +" on Chronicles+ (I would do so in Complete, but I'd feel weird not using every advantage possible under that category, which glitched TA most certainly provides).
I recently made a significant improvement to my single segment Ys II time, about 4:20 better than my previous personal best.  There's also a separate link to an encode with the full ending (because of the Goddesses being nude).  I've uploaded commentary as well, though the video quality is a bit worse.  Anyway, the run, timed at 1:05:02 traditional RTA timing ("New Game" to final hit on Darm):



Encode
Commentary

The reason it's so much better is because it incorporates a lot of what I want to do with the segmented route, mainly a much tighter gold route.  That said, I know there's at least 40 seconds of improvement (almost certainly more, though I don't really know how much - I'm blindly guessing around 70), though I realistically don't expect much more than 20 seconds to come off in a SS setting (one of my unfinished runs was ahead by that much getting the Floodgate Key from Keith).  I may still do full runs from time to time, but if I never finish the segmented run (still poking at it from time to time), I'm pretty pleased with the way this run turned out.  Dunno if I want to submit it to this site or not, though.

Anyway, aside from general optimizations, the segmented run can still improve via no armor whatsoever (something I'm considering doing eventually if I do more full game runs - Lord help me), Roda Fruit instead of a Cruberry for Druegar (full MP, makes a ~10 second quicker kill slightly more viable, but is extremely risky), and no herbs for Dalles.  Actually, I believe each of the bosses can be improved from what was shown in this run, but I'm not sure by how much.  I'm also starting to lean towards getting Shield Magic even for a segmented run, just because of how often Darm usually hits you, and since I'll be without armor... yeah.