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UraniumAnchor: 2014-07-15 12:38:54 am
SDAVerification: 2014-07-08 03:21:53 am
Game Page: Doesn't exist yet

Ys I & II Chronicles Plus (Any %) (Single Segment) [Game: Ys 1]

Decision: Reject (changed from Accept on July 14th)

Reason: Some information came to light after this was accepted that the run had serious planning errors. I don't want to set a precedent but the difference is severe enough in this case that I'm making an exception.

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work
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Run Information

Ys I & II Chronicles Plus (Any %) (Single Segment) [Game: Ys 1]

Verification Files

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting. Verifications are due by June 21, 2014.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). This is not a contest where the majority wins - I will judge each verification on its content. Please keep your verification brief unless you have a good reason otherwise.

After 2 weeks I will read all of the verifications and move this thread to the main verification board and post my verdict.
Insane Killer Robot
A/V good, no cheating detected. Overall, the run went very well. Grinding was necessary because bosses like Vagullion can only be beaten when Adol is level 10. The only thing that would make me lean towards the reject side would be the death against Pictimos. But most of the bosses went well and very quickly, and I'm impressed at how well Vagullion went since he is probably the worst boss in the existence of video games. I'm willing to give this an accept because the death against Pictimos only cost a few seconds. The only real improvements would be slightly better luck on the bosses, slightly better movements (including not making the mistake of nearly going into Jeba's house when needing to talk to Feena), and not dying. This game IS very difficult, so the time on this is very nice.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2014-06-20 08:34:44 am
Very nice looking. A few mistakes with finding the right path but the dungeons tend to be really boring and unremarkable. One boss death that was by the looks of it anticipated.

I played through this game not too long before C4L, so I know how frustrating the combat can be...the game doesn't always like the angle you run at enemies and lining up off-center hits can be a chore at times.
That said, the runner makes short work of pretty much everything in the game, except Pictimos, who caused a death. Pictimos is really stupid to do fast though, you'll generally take heavy damage while doing it, so dying is a very real possibility.
There were some minor mistakes, but nothing reject-worthy.
The only thing that caught my eye was the differing XP grinding strats used before the first boss. I watched Keypaladin's run at C4L, and he did a side-quest to get most of the XP, this run just grinds it out in front of the temple. I watched both side by side, and found that this run is slightly faster for gaining the needed XP.

Giving this an ACCEPT.
The speedrun went really well especially considering the difficulty of the game. The only thing noticeable is the death against Yogleks & Yomulgun but it was only a matter of a few seconds and this strat is really hard to pull off but stills pays off in the end. Griding went well, boss fights were really good (esp. Vagullion) and aside from some slight movements errors, it still remains solid. Good menuing too. I'm giving this an accept.
A/V is good and everything looks legit. This run was a real treat to watch. As others have said, Ys 1 is pretty difficult and the runner makes it look like Adol is out for his morning jog. It's incredibly easy to be off-plane by 2 pixels and get crushed for most of your life, especially when you don't have time to line up well, so the few times the runner has to stop to heal are completely understandable (and they don't cost much time either.) The death is unfortunate but the fast strat for that fight is just dumb, and the death+safety save only cost about 15 seconds.

Easy accept from me.
Decision posted.
Edit history:
Korzic: 2014-07-11 08:39:07 pm
Korzic: 2014-07-09 03:29:23 pm
Korzic: 2014-07-09 03:26:23 pm
Korzic: 2014-07-09 03:25:39 pm
Really wish I had seen this thread sooner, as this run is in my eyes a reject.  I'm the person responsible for the current segmented run of the Japanese non-Steam version of the game on the site (which I have even managed to beat in single segment conditions).  It's true that I generally speedrun the Complete version, but that doesn't mean I'm unfamiliar with this newer version of the game.  I have done a few runs of this version to try and get a sense of which version is the faster (still the Japanese one, I believe, but that's a non-issue here), but I was able to get this one pretty close to my usual single segment times of Complete.  My times for Complete are generally just under 39 minutes (when I finish them - I tend not to save at all, which is extremely risky), and my best for Chronicles+ is 39:45 (used a few saves to ensure I would have something decent to compare to, but I'm not interested in seriously running this version at present).  If desired, I will post the 39:45 run to Youtube or something.

Anyway, my point in bringing up the stuff above is not to take away from the efforts of this runner, but only to point out that such a time discrepancy means there are glaring flaws with the route presented here (though I do agree with the above people that the overall execution was pretty good).  I realize the decision has already been made, but for the benefit of the runner (or anyone else that might wish to improve on this time - it will likely not be me, not with this particular version), I will make some comments anyway.

First, Jenocres.  Most, if not all, of the people I've seen run this game decide to gather the 800 EXP by doing the Luta Gemma sidequest alongside returning the Sapphire Ring.  Combine this with the automatic EXP from Sara, and you're only 50 EXP away from level 4.  That's faster than grinding out all the EXP on enemies, but not by too much (I don't remember, but I want to say it takes 2 minutes altogether).  However, I prefer to fight Jenocres at level 1, no grinding involved, no need for the Long Sword, which means no need for the Sapphire Ring sidequest either.  That's about 2 minutes saved vs grinding, whether that be from Luta Gemma or otherwise.  Now before everyone says how unreasonably hard that is (quite frankly, it is for most people), a better alternative is to do the Sapphire Ring sidequest, which puts you at level 2, which means you can make 3 additional mistakes compared to level 1.  Is it still hard?  Yes, but with a bit of practice, you should be able to get it fairly consistently.  It's a daunting task, but it's seriously not that bad at level 2.  Two minutes saved for a run this length is nothing to sneeze at.

Saving Feena, you can get an additional 500 EXP in this version by rapidly doing the following input when selecting to rescue her: confirm, cancel, confirm.  Not sure why it works (Complete can just confirm mash for a little more, which doesn't work here), but it's free EXP.  Pretty easy to pull off, so no reason not to take advantage of it, regardless of the route choice.  Additionally, when escorting her out, there's a small pathing quirk you can do to save a few seconds (look up one of my single segment runs, you'll see it there).

Silver Sword can be done early if desired, but it's technically very slightly slower than getting it at the normal time.  However, I usually do anyway, as it makes the lower Shrine floors easier to survive.  The flipside is surviving that first Mine visit.  Not too bad, unless deciding to try and also kill the Mine enemies during your trek (technically would be best to, but it's far too easy to die if doing so - still, Long Sword is preferable if deciding to do that).  Anyway, if getting it early, you'd return to the Shrine, use it to easily level up to 7 on the way to Nygtilger, and continue back to the Mine.  EDIT: Also noticing that the runner picked up the Treasure Box Key early.  Unless going the early Silver Sword route (all Mine chests need it), there is no reason to pick it up before saving Feena, and should be obtained the second trip through the Shrine.

Darm Tower, I'd say to avoid the Silver Shield and Silver Armor.  Armor doesn't make a bit of difference for Khonsclard.  That said, I realize you probably got it for Yog & Omu, in which case I'd say to practice more.  If this were anything other than Easy difficulty, I'd say to grab at least the shield, but as it is, the fight is over quickly, and it should go pretty much the same way every time (unlike Jenocres, who has a "random" element to him).  It's still dangerous, no doubt about it, but you're already healing before him, you're already saving there, so just make it a habit to practice him a few times before doing a run, and your chances of survival should greatly increase.  As for Dark Fact, that's already an incredibly quick fight on Easy, so he shouldn't be much threat without them (also, no need to manually equip the Blue Amulet to get through that door - as long as you have it in your inventory, the door will open just by touching it).

Couple other things I can't get behind, such as getting the Timer and Heal Rings.  If a ring has to be obtained (I say skip them all, Evil Ring excluded of course =p), the fastest and most useful is probably the Shield Ring.  You're already picking up Heal Potions (something I actually can get behind, for once =p), and bosses give free HP refills, so shouldn't be any need for either (Timer could be more useful, if it weren't for being on Easy difficulty; Heal, I see that was used before Vagullion, but I would've either risked it that scenario, or gotten the Mine B3 potion).

All that aside, I really do think this is a decent run, but there's simply too much time that can and should be trimmed from it.  I really hope you continue to run the game and improve your time.  It's not the easiest game to speedrun, but I've found it to be very rewarding when I do finish.  Of course, it might help if I saved every now and then, but I digress. =p
Edit history:
Hachrt: 2014-07-10 10:38:02 am
Hachrt: 2014-07-10 03:42:54 am
Ys, Rockman Dash and .hack// mostly
The grinding pattern at the shrine, to get to level 4, that is done in this video is inefficient. The alcove directly to the right of the upper staircase which leads into the shrine, to the left of the pillars, will respawn all the enemies below since the trigger is a vertical one.  He goes way too far to the right and wastes too many steps to respawn them.

That being said, Gemma's quest is solidly faster. Branch and I tested this multiple times because it looks and feels slower to do what you have to do - but it isn't.  I took the Gemma route as my role and was consistently done with Jenocres before Branch had finished grinding, over the 5+ times we checked and the 10+ times we restarted due to errors.  Jenocres at level 1, or even level 2, is 2 whole minutes faster than THAT, as Korzic mentioned.

EDIT: Gemma's Quest would be even faster than what it is if you had 100 more gold and thus could afford another Wing, at this point in the game that would require you to opt out of the longsword.


The Longsword is only necessary for two things in my personal experimentation, which is more limited than I'd like to admit since I've been focusing on other things.

The first is the Grinding to level 4 because you need the extra attack power to make killing the blue guys worth the time - but this is slow anyway so, really, it doesn't even matter.

The second is when you go for Early Silver Sword which is only worthwhile time wise if you're taking advantage of killing the mine monsters for the XP, and then the shrine monsters for the XP because it ensures you hit level 7 for a 4-hit KO on Nygtilger and means you're taking advantage of the first run through the mines for part of your XP route. It is not too far behind the other route to do this, but it is probably still slower by a marginal amount.

Doing the Silver Ring Quest for the experience so you can hit level 4 with the Gemma Quest incidentally gives you the opportunity to get the sword but if you're not using it in the mines or in the shrine levels, where in this video he *actively* avoids killing enemies in the shrine (even the ones on floor 2 which take one hit to kill and don't damage him by any significant value) and mines and misses out on xp due to it, it isn't necessary.  It might do a bit more damage to Jenocres, but it doesn't help at all vs Nygtilger at the level he's at during that fight.


I'd also point out that he skips a Health Potion in the Shrine, which is far fewer steps out of his way than the health potion in the first floor of the mines, only to then get the Health Potion in the first floor of the Mines as he's collecting the most useless ring in the game - the Timer Ring.

Nitpicky: His Nygtilger fight misses out on a free hit at the very beginning because he's not pressed right up to the Nygtilger Carving and running at it. He backs off instead.
I'm in agreement with what Hachrt posted.  I really do feel bad that this information is coming out right after the verdict has been posted, but I was unaware that a run had even been submitted recently, or else these comments would've been made on time.  That's my fault though, since I was actively checking the verification topic for a run of this and Ys II, but only the top of the list (I tend to forget there's more than one list now), and I somehow completely missed it.  I'm only still posting a late "verification" because I'm an active runner (well, of another extremely similar version), and this route just isn't up to par.  It is what it is, though.  The decision has already been made, and if the staff still wants to abide by it, then there's little to do except hope someone does a more up-to-date run.

That said, if this run does indeed go through, then the timing of it needs to be looked at more closely.  The runner's comments indicate that it's a 46:58, which I think means timing was stopped right as the credits start.  I think most RTA runners aside from myself stop timing as soon as the screen transitions to the Darm Tower backdrop (with the scrolling text).  However, when my run was verified, it was decided that timing should be stopped as soon as the final Book of Ys is translated, as that's the last notable player input before the ending starts up (the following text box or two was ignored in the timing).  In light of that, I've got this run timed out to be 44:34 or so, though I can't check it exactly (VirtualDub doesn't recognize the video format).
Not a walrus
It does put me in a pretty weird place because I generally don't like to change my mind after a decision has been posted, but I don't think I've ever had three really well thought out rejections *immediately after* an accept before. I'll talk it over with the staff before I do anything else.
Edit history:
Korzic: 2014-07-13 04:03:16 pm
Korzic: 2014-07-10 11:11:26 pm
Well, two rejections, since two of said three posts are from me.

Whatever happens, I've made pages for the games on the Knowledge Base (Ys I, Ys II).  I have no idea how accessible the newer route knowledge was before (some of it's been available in the PC forum thread for some time, though scattered about somewhat, partially because SS runs were typically not the focus of the topic), but it at least should help prevent something like this in the future.
Not a walrus
If you had to estimate, how much time difference would the things the two of you mentioned save in comparison to the length of the run?
Edit history:
Korzic: 2014-07-14 11:28:05 pm
Korzic: 2014-07-14 06:59:18 pm
Korzic: 2014-07-14 06:55:30 pm
If it makes things easier, I've uploaded my 39:45 time for this version for comparison.  Not a great run (I know the time can go below 39 minutes), but good enough for comparison purposes, I think.

Anyway, timings.  At the time of Jenocres' (first boss) defeat, the level 1 w/Short Sword fight is about ~1:55 faster than Luta Gemma or grinding; Long Sword at level 2 is ~1:40 faster, since it has to do a small sidequest to get a little more money for the Long Sword.

Bonus Feena EXP is negligible (and recently discovered for this version, so that can be overlooked given when this run was submitted), and just means an extra B3 Mine kill for this version, so probably a second or so here, more if early Silver Sword + early Mine EXP is taken advantage of (less grinding on the fungi so other things can be killed early).  Free EXP either way.

Silver Sword early vs. a "normal"/under-leveled Shrine visit is more or less the same, with early Silver Sword probably being slightly slower but safer under optimal circumstances.  That said, the runner got the Treasure Box Key early for no reason.  Early Silver Sword needs it, as well as the Power Ring quest (not worthwhile on Easy, BTW), but the runner didn't do either, so it's a ~15s detour for no reason - under a "normal" Shrine route, it is best obtained during the second visit.  EDIT: I guess it's also useful for the Shield Ring, but the runner didn't get that either.

Re-obtaining the Silver Shield in the tower is an additional ~11s, Silver Armor takes an additional ~20s.  Possible alternative if twin head boss is deemed too tough without armor is just the Silver Shield or Battle Shield; Battle Shield takes ~13s for more defense for the twin heads, but Silver Shield would be better for Dark Fact.

The Timer Ring is a detour a little over 10s, and the Heal Ring I think is ~20s.

Then there's something I didn't mention before, choosing the correct direction on Darm Tower balconies, which is ~.5s each time, but always left on them gets about half correct by default.  Would be I think ~8s faster if all correct directions used (directions posted on the KB page).  Anyway, discovered before this run, but I've only just begun to use them myself, and is something I'd consider trivial for the time being.

Minus the balcony thing, that stuff adds up to ~3:00 (though my above run did sacrifice ~15s for level 2 Jenocres fight), and my Chronicles+ time above still saves almost 2 minutes more.  Not exactly sure where that's coming from.  We had about the same length Vagullion fight (completely random, no known way to manipulate him), so can't be that.

EDIT: Seems some of that additional time loss from the runner is coming from slower mantis grinding before Vagullion.  From the start of said grinding session to the beginning of the Vagullion battle takes the runner ~3:20.  My run takes ~2:05.  Granted, I'm 6,000 EXP ahead (I think - runner displays EXP to next level, whereas I display the overall amount, which is kinda confusing trying to compare the totals) due to taking advantage of early Mine and late Shrine EXP, but still, the 6,000 EXP discrepancy should take an additional ~25s or so on the mantises (going by level 8 stats, the level the grinding session usually starts), not a minute.  There was also the extra slowdown from the runner using the Heal Ring a bit right before Vagullion, but that appears to be only an additional ~10s loss, meaning the runner's grinding was a little slow in general.
Ys, Rockman Dash and .hack// mostly
I did some additional testing for the Gemma Quest/Grinding to level 4 after making my comment in this thread and that testing contradicts my previous statement because they seem to be dead even when done efficiently and without mistakes. I have to do more testing because I was not without mistakes with either route. I could have also saved some time on both routes by being sure to kill 4 experience worth of enemies on the way to the shrine, which would have saved some more time.

That being said, from screen transition into the cliffs to screen transition into the Shrine, his grinding was from ~4:49 to ~7:31 which is 2m42s; my recent test was ~20s faster even just by avoiding the movement mistake of going to the right side of the Shrine (other mistakes were still made).

Not taking the free hit on Nygtilger by running at the wall is only a time loss of, on a high-end estimate, 2 or 3 seconds because he backed off and had to wait for him before he could start attacking, but I don't actually know and it could be slightly more or slightly less.

I think Korzic covered everything else, except that while he mentioned the Timer Ring detour, I think he forgot that the runner went out of his way for the health potion as well, which increases the time loss by some amount, the total time he spent on that side of the screen was ~23s. Getting the Timer Ring without the Health Potion is probably only ~10s worth of time as he said.

I'll get back to you on that one however because I have to compare it to getting the potion in the Shrine and then compare it to getting no health potions until B3 of the Mines (which is what we normally do). It's ideal to get one of the potions before entering Darm Tower only because grinding the Mantid things for level 10 can go south easily;  Even then you want to save it, if you can, so you don't have to pick up another one as a safety measure for Y&O in the tower.
Not a walrus
Alright, that seems like a significant enough difference that this run definitely would have been rejected had that been known to the verifiers, especially given the prior existence of the 39:45 run linkeds above. I'm going to retroactively reject this, which might seem a little strange but I think I can make an exception every once in a while.
About the 39:45 run, I should probably point out that was done on June 5 of this year (after this run had been submitted).  However, there certainly was precedent for the route choices me and Hachrt brought up, as evidenced by this single segment run of the Complete version recorded nearly a year ago (version differences I think would account for maybe a minute at best, ending up in Complete's favor).  Regardless, such a run was something that I would've done and brought up during a proper verification, given the circumstances.

In any case, thank you for taking into account our late info.  I'll do my best not to provide late verification again in the future, as it is an unusual situation I'd definitely rather avoid.  But, being able to do a run 5 minutes faster than the submission without much trouble definitely demands a response, I think.

To the runner (if you're reading this): I'm sorry the situation turned out the way it did (accepted, then rejected).  I hope you take into account the info here and can get a better time.  This game could definitely benefit from more runners, and two of the things in particular I liked about your run was your willingness to handle Vagullion at low health (though the Heal Ring use just before still bothers me), and doing the Shrine under-leveled can be hard to survive at times, so good job on that (but unless done optimally, I'm honestly not sure it's better than early Silver Sword for SS runs, which of course usually will have hiccups).