Xenoblade Chronicles

Edit history:

halfbakedprophet: 2013-01-21 01:59:48 pm

2013-01-21 01:58:33 pm

They appear immediately from reset, yes

And yeah, I'm planning on practicing the route in save segments. I'm a smoker so I'm waiting for warm weather and a really long DSL cable that will reach outdoors for an actual run :p

I_eat_tables

2013-01-21 02:08:57 pm

Fire Emblem?

That's good. Except the smoking part, bad for your health :P.

Anyway watching the Nico run now, and I realise I mistook Verdant Bluchall for another UM (the Caterpile in Tephra Cave), which probably explains some of my confusion over the route. Will post comments if/when I have them.

I_eat_tables

Edit history:

I_eat_tables: 2013-01-22 03:36:21 pm

2013-01-21 03:56:12 pm

Fire Emblem?

Part 3: In the Central Plaza Mechon fight, you should be able to save some time by messing around with party commands on Shulk (or possibly even controlling Shulk). The limiting factor is Wild Down, so you want the enemy to be broken as soon as Wild Down is charged. The Nico run's strategy doesn't do that and probably loses about ~10 seconds which seem relatively easy to tease out.

Also you could consider putting some AP into Wild Down before this fight... one level will save about 2.5 seconds from faster cooldown on the WDs, but of course it's 300ish AP spent on something that's not more useful elsewhere.

The Nico's Spider Queen fight definitely looks improvable. Like, it spends quite a while focusing on the spiders... I'd have thought it would be better to focus on the queen, and on the 4th attack when you get up to a 4x combo, use War Swing for massive damage to all the spiders (ideally kill them all for an instant second chain attack) - might need a few attempts to get that to happen, but it seems like it'd save some time. Might be worth testing a little.

Something else to be aware of... visions when collection collectopedia items, which occur from like segment 5 onwards. Every one is like 8 seconds gone (+2 seconds for the first one's tutorial), which is time we'd rather avoid. I don't actually know what the cutscene trigger is, though. If I had to guess, it would be collectibles which are needed for a quest you have the prerequesites for. I don't know how many we can actually reasonably avoid, hopefully all but in long segments, it might be needed to watch one (hopefully not though).

Watching it in run, getting the item in the southwest of Bionis Leg really does take some time - about 40 seconds. Don't know if it's worth it. According to the Wiki, it's for 200 EXP and 2K gold. I guess we should probably keep record of some of these numbers? (Note it's 40 secs + time to start and end the quest).

Watching the Earnest quest, we should probably test to see just how fast you can run (well walk) past those noise detection spiders in the cave, and how far away.

I do wonder if it's really worth going to Col 6 before beating the Tentacle Mechon. I guess it might just save time, but maybe not.

Anyway done up to segment 5 now. Hope these notes help a little.

Edit: To avoid double posting, watching segment 6 and onwards currently.

It looks like he doesn't fight the Tirkin Leader UM in this run and you haven't planned for it in yours... although according to the Xenoblade Wiki it only gives money, so maybe that's why. Nevermind.

Regarding Arts, here's some useful information I deduced a while ago that I don't think you can (easily) find elsewhere.

The cost to level arts from level n to n+1 is always a fixed multiple of the first level cost. In terms of level (from): times first level cost, it's:
1: 1 times
2: 2 times
3: 4 times
4: 8 times
5: 12 times
6: 18 times
7: 26 times
8: 36 times
9: 48 times

e.g. if an art costs 200 AP to level from 1-2, it would cost 12*200=2400 to level from 5 to 6. Might come in handy for Arts planning (generally, I suspect more low level arts will be better than few high level arts).

Also since it looks like we level Wild Down here, I definitely think we could save time levelling it before segment 3.

The strategy during the Tentacle Mechon fight could probably be improved. I don't know how much of an issue the tentacles themselves are, but it doesn't look like the fight is long enough to worry about them, or if they are an issue, I suspect saving before the fight would be a good time, as not killing the tentacles would easily save 30+ seconds.

For the Xord (spiral mountain) fight, all we can do to save time is avoid visions. Which means we really want Reyn to draw and hold aggro, as Reyn is tank. I don't know how hard that is though.

Part 3: In the Central Plaza Mechon fight, you should be able to save some time by messing around with party commands on Shulk (or possibly even controlling Shulk). The limiting factor is Wild Down, so you want the enemy to be broken as soon as Wild Down is charged. The Nico run's strategy doesn't do that and probably loses about ~10 seconds which seem relatively easy to tease out.

Also you could consider putting some AP into Wild Down before this fight... one level will save about 2.5 seconds from faster cooldown on the WDs, but of course it's 300ish AP spent on something that's not more useful elsewhere.

The Nico's Spider Queen fight definitely looks improvable. Like, it spends quite a while focusing on the spiders... I'd have thought it would be better to focus on the queen, and on the 4th attack when you get up to a 4x combo, use War Swing for massive damage to all the spiders (ideally kill them all for an instant second chain attack) - might need a few attempts to get that to happen, but it seems like it'd save some time. Might be worth testing a little.

Something else to be aware of... visions when collection collectopedia items, which occur from like segment 5 onwards. Every one is like 8 seconds gone (+2 seconds for the first one's tutorial), which is time we'd rather avoid. I don't actually know what the cutscene trigger is, though. If I had to guess, it would be collectibles which are needed for a quest you have the prerequesites for. I don't know how many we can actually reasonably avoid, hopefully all but in long segments, it might be needed to watch one (hopefully not though).

Watching it in run, getting the item in the southwest of Bionis Leg really does take some time - about 40 seconds. Don't know if it's worth it. According to the Wiki, it's for 200 EXP and 2K gold. I guess we should probably keep record of some of these numbers? (Note it's 40 secs + time to start and end the quest).

Watching the Earnest quest, we should probably test to see just how fast you can run (well walk) past those noise detection spiders in the cave, and how far away.

I do wonder if it's really worth going to Col 6 before beating the Tentacle Mechon. I guess it might just save time, but maybe not.

Anyway done up to segment 5 now. Hope these notes help a little.

Edit: To avoid double posting, watching segment 6 and onwards currently.

It looks like he doesn't fight the Tirkin Leader UM in this run and you haven't planned for it in yours... although according to the Xenoblade Wiki it only gives money, so maybe that's why. Nevermind.

Regarding Arts, here's some useful information I deduced a while ago that I don't think you can (easily) find elsewhere.

The cost to level arts from level n to n+1 is always a fixed multiple of the first level cost. In terms of level (from): times first level cost, it's:
1: 1 times
2: 2 times
3: 4 times
4: 8 times
5: 12 times
6: 18 times
7: 26 times
8: 36 times
9: 48 times

e.g. if an art costs 200 AP to level from 1-2, it would cost 12*200=2400 to level from 5 to 6. Might come in handy for Arts planning (generally, I suspect more low level arts will be better than few high level arts).

Also since it looks like we level Wild Down here, I definitely think we could save time levelling it before segment 3.

The strategy during the Tentacle Mechon fight could probably be improved. I don't know how much of an issue the tentacles themselves are, but it doesn't look like the fight is long enough to worry about them, or if they are an issue, I suspect saving before the fight would be a good time, as not killing the tentacles would easily save 30+ seconds.

For the Xord (spiral mountain) fight, all we can do to save time is avoid visions. Which means we really want Reyn to draw and hold aggro, as Reyn is tank. I don't know how hard that is though.

halfbakedprophet

2013-01-26 02:31:20 pm

Really good info on the arts, I doubt it'll change much in terms of long term plans but it could definitely influence some early art-leveling.

And gold around the refugee camp is crucial, questing is the only quick way of really getting it. The quick step III unique boots are really expensive (and really crucial to the run). Questing does seem slow, but getting the equivalent experience via grinding takes at least as much time and provides no gold.

I've thought about avoiding collectible visions, but I really think it's impossible. At best, locations could be determined where the collectibles offer no good prize and they aren't crucial to sell for gold at that point. Then all collectibles could be avoided in that area. This is an RPG remember, and we're fortunate enough to not have random encounters (for the most part). This sort of thing will come down to luck most of the time I think.

(Im responding to your post in a random order, sorry about that) Focusing on the queen over the drones has never worked for me. That battle can still be lost with some bad luck even when taking out the drones first. And it works decently into the strategy, you'll get a full party gauge after killing a few spiders, then if you can get a x3 or x4 red chain with hammer beat/war swing the rest should be taken out, ending the chain attack with a full party gauge to topple the queen (or straight aggro if shulk is in good slit edge/backslash position). Same thing goes for the tentacle mechon, perhaps a couple legs could be left alive but the party takes too much damage with them all online.

Thanks for taking the time to go through the video and my notes, it's nice not doing it all on my own for a change.

Really good info on the arts, I doubt it'll change much in terms of long term plans but it could definitely influence some early art-leveling.

And gold around the refugee camp is crucial, questing is the only quick way of really getting it.  The quick step III unique boots are really expensive (and really crucial to the run).  Questing does seem slow, but getting the equivalent experience via grinding takes at least as much time and provides no gold.

I've thought about avoiding collectible visions, but I really think it's impossible.  At best, locations could be determined where the collectibles offer no good prize and they aren't crucial to sell for gold at that point.  Then all collectibles could be avoided in that area.  This is an RPG remember, and we're fortunate enough to not have random encounters (for the most part).  This sort of thing will come down to luck most of the time I think.

(Im responding to your post in a random order, sorry about that) Focusing on the queen over the drones has never worked for me.  That battle can still be lost with some bad luck even when taking out the drones first.  And it works decently into the strategy, you'll get a full party gauge after killing a few spiders, then if you can get a x3 or x4 red chain with hammer beat/war swing the rest should be taken out, ending the chain attack with a full party gauge to topple the queen (or straight aggro if shulk is in good slit edge/backslash position).  Same thing goes for the tentacle mechon, perhaps a couple legs could be left alive but the party takes too much damage with them all online.

Thanks for taking the time to go through the video and my notes, it's nice not doing it all on my own for a change.

I_eat_tables

2013-01-26 03:17:33 pm

Fire Emblem?

Glad to be helping, I want to see a good run of this game as much as anyone.

Okay, if gold collection is necessary for those boots, I think beating the UM in Tirkin Hideout should be considered. And you're probably right about collectible visions, but I also think you should consider segmenting more if it helps avoid them. Like, not all of them, just a few. See what happens I guess.

I dunno if you've seen this, but this looks amazing: http://xenobladedata.web.fc2.com/data/col_pop_1301_snowmt.html. I believe it's a complete reference of locations for collectibles, and I would guess from the title, it has more. Unfortunately, it's in Japanese, which I personally don't know, but a translation would be pretty useful.

Sir VG

2013-01-26 03:24:34 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Here's the site through Google Translate, which does cover the whole game: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fxenobladedata.web.fc2.com%2F

The translation from Google is iffy, but it does help figure things out. The list covers areas via coordinates (which are on maps on the site). Each coordinate matches a row with a list of items and the % chance of it being the pickup.

I_eat_tables

Edit history:

I_eat_tables: 2013-01-26 04:00:26 pm

2013-01-26 03:32:47 pm

Fire Emblem?

Interesting, I tried using google translate and it told me it couldn't do it. Yeah, that's enough to work out what it's talking about I think. Lots of good info there.

Edit: Gotta love that apparently in that bad translation from Japanese, arts have one of two types - ~~Ether and Strength~~ stuff and eh.

halfbakedprophet

2013-01-26 04:21:05 pm

I think I'm just bad at reading google-translated Japanese, but does this specify specific locations (eg. where in colony 9)? With my old route I would jump off the left barrier when entering residential district from the boardwalk, then go up the debris cannon past the bird UM (Dark something) and at the tip there would always be a chewy radish. Trading Jackson (assuming you can get plate snow or rainbow zirconia) is much more efficient, but this goes to show that some collectibles are always the same thing, and certain drops just won't be certain items (eg. you can't get zirconia or chewy radish anywhere in the grassy area surrounding the colony). For this reason I usually jump into the lake after the Fiora Outlook Park cutscene, because those collectibles CAN contain chewy radish (very unlikely) and rainbow zirconia / sorrow beetle / other "rarer" collectibles. This list still definitely helps with necessities like the other vegetables which can be found much more generally.

Sir VG

2013-01-26 04:34:20 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

You need to look at the list (any collection page) along with a map. The coordinates are first on the collection rows. Each spot can be from 1-8 different things, with the name and then the % possibility of it being that item. The line also does say whether it only appears during the day or night (time column).

I_eat_tables

2013-01-26 05:39:25 pm

Fire Emblem?

Looking through all the information there, one thing that seems to jump out - does the Japanese version give lower EXP from secret areas? I mean it's listing the secret areas as giving less EXP than normal landmarks.

Sir VG

2013-01-26 05:43:12 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Not sure. It could be, but maybe it's Google Translate borking. I can't pull out a Japanese copy of the game right now to check what actuals are.

I_eat_tables

2013-01-26 05:44:58 pm

Fire Emblem?

Mistranslating a number inside a single table cell? I suspect it's unlikely. I mean, Japanese gives more EXP from battles right?

halfbakedprophet

Edit history:

halfbakedprophet: 2013-01-28 03:47:27 pm

2013-01-27 08:09:26 pm

I only compared the first couple segments of the nico run to the EXP levels I was getting, but most (if not all) were slightly lower. I managed to kill verdant bluchal and the cylinder hangar boss on a chain attack (x1.5exp) and was still left a sliver short of leveling up (iirc the nico run doesn't get any early chain attack kills).

If secret areas do provide less exp in the J version then that gives me much hope. Exp management is the worst part of the run, and it'd be nice to find some way to get a lead on the Japanese run.

I'm going to attempt to make some sort of collectible route to get the 5000exp (iirc) boost from completing a collectible page, but that'll require a lot of cross-referencing co-ordinates on the map and will take a lot of time I don't have with school at the moment, but I'll get around to it sometime.

Thanks for the link Sir VG (and by link I meant translation)

I_eat_tables

Edit history:

I_eat_tables: 2013-02-02 11:19:01 am

2013-02-02 11:12:39 am

Fire Emblem?

Hmm, completing a collectible page doesn't give 5K exp I'm afraid. I'm currently doing a casual run, and while trying to complete the C9 veg row I managed to grab just about everything, and decided what the heck, I'll complete it. Completing the page was 200 exp. http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fxenobladedata.web.fc2.com%2F - number 123 in the trial page, I think. Completing the whole collectopaedia gives 50K, perhaps that's what you got confused with?

Other thoughts from my casual run: At level 12, I was happily able to beat the Spider Queen with the strategy I presented earlier (focus on Queen, kill spiders with war swing in chain attacks, chain attack more). Now in the run IIRC you expect to be level 10 when you reach the queen, so that'll be a bit tougher, but you'll also have better equipment. I think it's definitely worth trying, and also seeing how much time it saves - if it's sufficient it might be another case of, it's worthwhile to save before to get good luck in the fight.

And more bad news, it looks like secret areas don't give more exp. It seems like they've dropped a zero from the column (or maybe being a secret area means it multiplies the EXP gain by 10). The table shows Believer's Paradise as giving 78, the Nicovideo gives 780. I'm near there currently, I'll confirm when I visit it what it gives in the PAL (and presumably also NSTC) version.

Hmm, completing a collectible page doesn't give 5K exp I'm afraid. I'm currently doing a casual run, and while trying to complete the C9 veg row I managed to grab just about everything, and decided what the heck, I'll complete it. Completing the page was 200 exp. http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fxenobladedata.web.fc2.com%2F - number 123 in the trial page, I think. Completing the whole collectopaedia gives 50K, perhaps that's what you got confused with?

Other thoughts from my casual run: At level 12, I was happily able to beat the Spider Queen with the strategy I presented earlier (focus on Queen, kill spiders with war swing in chain attacks, chain attack more). Now in the run IIRC you expect to be level 10 when you reach the queen, so that'll be a bit tougher, but you'll also have better equipment. I think it's definitely worth trying, and also seeing how much time it saves - if it's sufficient it might be another case of, it's worthwhile to save before to get good luck in the fight.

And more bad news, it looks like secret areas don't give more exp. It seems like they've dropped a zero from the column (or maybe being a secret area means it multiplies the EXP gain by 10). The table shows Believer's Paradise as giving 78, the Nicovideo gives 780. I'm near there currently, I'll confirm when I visit it what it gives in the PAL (and presumably also NSTC) version.

halfbakedprophet

Edit history:

halfbakedprophet: 2013-02-02 02:05:51 pm

2013-02-02 02:05:24 pm

My homebrew route was nearly identical to the nico run (grinded a few monsters instead of completing quests), and the collectible achievement was the "all possible slots filled" achievement's direct substitute, so I'm assuming a 0 must be dropped from that column too. 2000exp does sound more correct than 5000 in retrospect.

I'm trying to stream some practice attempts but I can't find my nunchuk -_- and I've never practiced with classic controller so I'm not starting now.

I_eat_tables

2013-02-02 02:07:19 pm

Fire Emblem?

No, it is 200 exp, I literally did it about 4 hours ago.

halfbakedprophet

2013-02-02 02:24:58 pm

uh right, must be getting mixed up with the secret area values or something. it's been a long time. I guess being less than half of the slot achievement's exp award makes it mostly obsolete, I doubt even an optimized collectible path would be a long term benefit. Still, on runs with good C9 collectible luck it'd definitely be worth seeking out a single trade or something to fill the page and get an XP boost.

And the difference between level 10 and 12 is huge, even with better equipment. It's definitely a possible fight, but all the knockback from the drone spiders combined with the overall risk of ending the run doesn't seem worth it. I'll test it out, but I died to her a lot in trial runs before using the nico route (with weaker equipment, but still).

I_eat_tables

2013-02-02 02:27:07 pm

Fire Emblem?

Okay, fair enough. 2 levels always doesn't sound like much (especially when she keeps a white banner) but I guess it's just too hard.

halfbakedprophet

Edit history:

halfbakedprophet: 2013-02-02 02:28:29 pm

2013-02-02 02:27:47 pm

The main issue is tension to be honest. Taking nonstop drone hits will leave shulk and reyn at neutral/negative, whereas taking them all out will max it. The fight might even be slower focusing on the queen taking this into consideration.

I_eat_tables

2013-02-02 02:38:51 pm

Fire Emblem?

Hmm, yes, that might actually be true. How high can we have our party gauge reasonably before the fight? Shulk has to do quite a lot of running alone, so it might not be full, but if we can start the fight Stream Edge > Chain > Stream Edge > War Swing we'd be off to a strong start (hopefully kill the drones, hurt the queen a little AND fill party gauge).

Even if killing the drones turns out to be bad, perhaps only killing them the first time. I don't know how much damage we can deal before they respawn but if it's large, killing them a second time might not be worthwhile.

halfbakedprophet

2013-02-02 02:45:51 pm

Killing them the first time is definitely the ideal way to go. The respawn seems influenced by a timer and RNG, so a lot of it will come down to luck (as well as just killing her ASAP). Getting a 4x chain attack on the queen right after killing the mob is ideal because it nearly guarantees she'll be dead before creating more drones.

It's actually much better to stick with red attacks in the chain, assuming it gets at least 3 hits in. If it ends after Reyn's first attack then a Stream Edge/War Swing is better though. Really wish the values that affect chain attack rates were more apparent in-game.

I_eat_tables

2013-02-02 02:57:59 pm

Fire Emblem?

I guess you mean the exact values, but I can tell you the formula is roughly something like Affinity/1000 [0-0.5] + tension bonus [0-0.3] + skill bonus [0-0.2]. Tension I think you can read (think it's 30% at flame, 20% at high, maybe 10% at normal?), skill is obviously going to be 0 at this point, and Affinity is likely around 1K, so you're really looking at ideally a 40% chance, I think.

halfbakedprophet

2013-02-02 03:25:59 pm

A 40% chance of a 4x chain or of each additional chain after Reyn's by your calculations? And doesn't matching the colours of the arts increase likelihood of continuing the CA? I could be wrong but I actually remember an in-game source saying so. And yeah, I just wish the actual affinity points were shown rather than just the faces, which can have a relatively vast range in affinity value (though i guess that range is small early on).

I_eat_tables

2013-02-02 03:38:25 pm

Fire Emblem?

I'll try and find a listing of the actual formula, but that's for each individual hit so that'd be 16%. And actually my formula's definitely wrong, I've just remembered that getting the timing on the B button ring perfectly adds 20% to the next chain link and the formula caps at 100%.

I don't think art colour matching affects the chance, but I've read in some placed that damage doesn't just scale with the mulitplier - apparently it goes 1, 1, 3, 5, 7 for a 1x, 2x, 3x, 4x, max multiplier respectively.

I_eat_tables

2013-02-02 04:04:24 pm

Fire Emblem?

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37834253&postcount=4657 is an interesting read. It links to http://www35.atwiki.jp/xenoblade/pages/166.html which is also quite interesting (more awesome Japanese translation though).

It looks like the multiplier actually goes 1, 2, 4, 6, 8. It also looks like many damage multipliers add instead of multiply.

Still looking for the formula...