Would Wii U Virtual Console be allowed?

DecafGrub47393

(user is banned)

DecafGrub47393

Edit history:

DecafGrub47393: 2013-04-05 11:13:47 am

DecafGrub47393: 2013-04-05 11:03:46 am

2013-04-05 10:58:30 am

PROS over original consoles:

Ability to savestate
allows playing while another family member is watching TV
Pause button is not on the system, unlike Master System's design
HD graphics resembling the original carts
Customizeable controls

CONS

lag stays the same as In the original cartridge

Restrictions for acception

1. Can ONLY save at screens the original console WR holder despises, depending on Category.
2. must use original control mapping
3. MUST leave in ALL creating restore points and Loading at the beginning of the segment.

good use for saves in a category that is prohibitively difficult on SNES

Segment 1

Items:

Morph Ball
2 Missle Tanks
1 Energy Tank
Bomb (saves once you get the Item)

Segment 2

Items: 1 Energy Tank

Saves at door transition to Super Missles

Segment 3

Items: 1 Reserve Tank
2 Super Missle Tanks
3 Power Bomb Tanks
Charge Beam

Saves in room before 3rd Energy Tank

Segment 4

Items: 3 Energy Tanks
1 Super Missle Tank
1 Missle Tank
High Jump
1 Power Bomb Tank

Saves at door transition to first heated room

Segment 5

First 3 heated rooms

Saves at door transition to Bubble room

Segment 6

Items: Speed Booster

Saves at door transition to bubble room

Segment 7

Items: 1 Missle Tank
Wave Beam

Saves at door transition to bubble room

Segment 8

Everything up to lava room

Saves at jump in to Lava

Segment 9

Saves at short charge

Segment 10

Items: 1 Energy Tank
1 Power Bomb Tank

Saves when crystal flash starts

Segments 11-19

X factor is extremely random, save after all 4 particles hit Ridley, for Segment 19, save once you get back to the bubble room

Segment 20

Bubble room to Mount Doom

Items: Ice Beam

Saves at Mount Doom

Segment 21

Mount Doom to Mocktoid

Saves at Mocktoid room

Segment 22

Mocktoid to Breaking into Draygon
Items: 1 Energy Tank

Segment 23

Draygon, up until One Last Shinespark

Segment 24

Items: Plasma Beam

Saves at escaping Plasma Beam room

Segment 25

EVERYTHING past Plasma Beam in an RBO, YES including Standup glitch.

Verdict I'm looking for

YES, but under limited conditions

Thread title:

[b]PROS over original consoles:[/b]

Ability to savestate
allows playing while another family member is watching TV
Pause button is not on the system, unlike Master System's design
HD graphics resembling the original carts
Customizeable controls

[b]CONS[/b]

lag stays the same as In the original cartridge

[b]Restrictions for acception[/b]

1. Can ONLY save at screens the original console WR holder despises, depending on Category.
2. must use original control mapping
3. MUST leave in ALL creating restore points and Loading at the beginning of the segment.

[b]good use for saves in a category that is prohibitively difficult on SNES[/b]

[i]Segment 1[/i]

Items:

Morph Ball
2 Missle Tanks
1 Energy Tank
Bomb (saves once you get the Item)

[i]Segment 2[/i]

Items: 1 Energy Tank

Saves at door transition to Super Missles

[i]Segment 3[/i]

Items: 1 Reserve Tank
2 Super Missle Tanks
3 Power Bomb Tanks
Charge Beam

Saves in room before 3rd Energy Tank

[i]Segment 4[/i]

Items: 3 Energy Tanks
1 Super Missle Tank
1 Missle Tank
High Jump
1 Power Bomb Tank

Saves at door transition to first heated room

[i]Segment 5[/i]

First 3 heated rooms

Saves at door transition to Bubble room

[i]Segment 6[/i]

Items: Speed Booster

Saves at door transition to bubble room

[i]Segment 7[/i]

Items: 1 Missle Tank
Wave Beam

Saves at door transition to bubble room

[i]Segment 8[/i]

Everything up to lava room

Saves at jump in to Lava

[i]Segment 9[/i]

Saves at short charge

[i]Segment 10[/i]

Items: 1 Energy Tank
1 Power Bomb Tank

Saves when crystal flash starts

[i]Segments 11-19[/i]

X factor is extremely random, save after all 4 particles hit Ridley, for Segment 19, save once you get back to the bubble room

[i]Segment 20[/i]

Bubble room to Mount Doom

Items: Ice Beam

Saves at Mount Doom

[i]Segment 21[/i]

Mount Doom to Mocktoid

Saves at Mocktoid room

[i]Segment 22[/i]

Mocktoid to Breaking into Draygon
Items: 1 Energy Tank

[i]Segment 23[/i]

Draygon, up until One Last Shinespark

[i]Segment 24[/i]

Items: Plasma Beam

Saves at escaping Plasma Beam room

[i]Segment 25[/i]

EVERYTHING past Plasma Beam in an RBO, YES including Standup glitch.

[b]Verdict I'm looking for [/b]

YES, but under limited conditions

UraniumAnchor

2013-04-05 11:55:03 am

Not a walrus

As far as I know the Wii U VC is treated the same as Wii VC, but RBO is not an accepted category at SDA.

MURPHAGATOR!

2013-04-05 11:59:32 am

Terraffirmative!

This does bring up another interesting question though. From what i can gather from this post, it looks like Wii U allows for savestates, how would that be dealt with as far as the segmentation he's suggesting?

UraniumAnchor

2013-04-05 12:03:16 pm

Not a walrus

I'd be surprised if that was allowed since it's not possible on the original console, but I don't know if we have an official ruling on that.

At the very least it'd be a different category from "normal" segmentation.

Paraxade

2013-04-05 12:31:11 pm

why on earth would we even consider allowing savestates?

UraniumAnchor

2013-04-05 12:40:13 pm

Not a walrus

This many segments would almost certainly be rejected for play quality, if nothing else.

Greenalink

2013-04-05 12:50:41 pm

DS Dictator

The Wii U VC release of Super Metroid isn't out yet until May 2013 but the savestate feature is useful to practice on speed tricks so that everyone can be as good as Garrison.

The save state feature is very useful for creating ILs run like NES Punch Out because there isn't a password to start on any fighter. The passwords are only used to start on a different circuit and some of the RNG heavy fights are partway through & having a save state on the VS screen reduces down time the runner wants to retry.

MURPHAGATOR!

2013-04-05 12:57:25 pm

Terraffirmative!

Well Paraxade, the only reason I thought it was worth asking was because this is an official release on an official console, so you'd be using functions that were allowed by the release. I guess I figured it'd be obviously a different category, just if such a method would even be considered at all.

As far as NES punchout goes, Greenalink, I don't know how the RNG works in that game exactly but that might have some initialization issues. It is a good point, though, which is exactly why I feel like this might need to be addressed. There's also just the point that having to play through a circuit to get chances at the IL table was part of what just had to be dealt with, and whether or not circumventing that is a legitimate method.

TheOthin

2013-04-05 01:10:21 pm

VC with savestates could be an interesting and worthwhile category if it makes a notable difference in run quality.

Hsanrb

2013-04-08 03:59:12 pm

An official ruling for this~~should~~ needs to come down as more Collections "Sega Ultimate Genesis Collection and some of their ports (Phantasy Star 2 on XBLA) has save anywhere that original consoles don't (ignore vidphone in PStar 2). I'm not sure but you could also segment a VC run if you can store the home restore point and back up the channel or something. Developers pushing Save Anywhere as a feature for re-releases is making this more of an issue when comparing 2 runs on different versions in which this is the only major difference.

Its just gonna be "can only segment a run wherever you can on real console. Games with no save points/passwords can't be done." so that a genesis run and a ulimate genesis collection run can be done on equal footing. I've always done a when in doubt, go without when deciding the platform I run games on.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-04-08 10:24:30 pm

2013-04-08 10:23:49 pm

HELLO!

Seems to me the precedent is set with the Mega Man Anniversary Collection. Its additional features create their own category/game.

But if the more featureful port is otherwise faithful, then yeah, just avoid any additional features if you want to compete.

kirbymastah

Edit history:

kirbymastah: 2013-04-08 10:31:20 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-04-08 10:30:55 pm

kirbymastah: 2013-04-08 10:30:08 pm

2013-04-08 10:29:34 pm

<(^_^)>

If you're going to use save-states, you might as well TAS.

The key difference between save-states and segmented runs is that segmented runs use saves as intended by the original game's design, and almost always, saving the game costs time, so you better be able to optimize the segment to more than make up for how much time saving costs.

For save-states...

1. It's not even in the original game
2. There is no cost at all to using a save-state, as opposed to an actual in-game save
3. Because of #2, where do you draw the line for segmenting? There is no point in making segments longer as each save-state costs no time at all (as opposed to an in-game save which costs several seconds, most notably in the 2d metroid games), so at that point, you might as well save-state every frame.

Is it extreme? Yes it is. If there was some kind of time loss for each save-state, then yeah, you can't really say "Might as well TAS", but as it stands, it seems like save-states work the same way as with emulators, and you might as well TAS. There's no way to draw an objective line for "how short should each save-state segment be"?

I personally don't think save-states should be used at all for real speedruns. Practice and starting ILs? Definitely. Full-game runs? No.

If you're going to use save-states, you might as well TAS.

The key difference between save-states and segmented runs is that segmented runs use saves as intended by the original game's design, and almost always, saving the game costs time, so you better be able to optimize the segment to more than make up for how much time saving costs.

For save-states...

1. It's not even in the original game
2. There is no cost at all to using a save-state, as opposed to an actual in-game save
3. Because of #2, where do you draw the line for segmenting? There is no point in making segments longer as each save-state costs no time at all (as opposed to an in-game save which costs several seconds, most notably in the 2d metroid games), so at that point, you might as well save-state every frame.

Is it extreme? Yes it is. If there was some kind of time loss for each save-state, then yeah, you can't really say "Might as well TAS", but as it stands, it seems like save-states work the same way as with emulators, and you might as well TAS. There's no way to draw an objective line for "how short should each save-state segment be"?

I personally don't think save-states should be used at all for real speedruns. Practice and starting ILs? Definitely. Full-game runs? No.

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2013-04-08 10:35:42 pm

2013-04-08 10:35:11 pm

Not a walrus

Using a save state would invoke the save penalty, so #3 would be somewhat tempered by that.

That said, Word of God is "no". One of the other admins might be more verbose, but that's all I have to say for now.

ShadowWraith

2013-04-08 10:47:24 pm

.

As other people have posted in the thread, allowing savestates in games that don't have a save feature is right out for obvious reasons, and allowing them in games that do have a save feature is out because you have a save feature already.
The semantics of whether a savestated speedrun would be impressive to watch don't really matter, they've been around for years in the form of emulator speedruns and we don't allow those on SDA.

UchihaSasuke

Edit history:

UchihaSasuke: 2013-04-10 08:02:03 pm

2013-04-10 07:59:30 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

you can't playback the whole run as a single segment so the amount of segments is gonna look horrible and that stops it from being "just like a TAS".

there's bound to be 1 or 2 games where the savestates are gonna make a difference. ILs come to mind since, in games like the original F-Zero, there's several tracks that you can't set a time without having to replay several races and then you only get 5 chances since you get 5 lives in GP mode. the savestates eliminate a lot of the tedium since you can reload your state just before the track you want to improve and retry as long as it takes to get a record.

of course, at fzerocentral we saw that this could be abused to make savestates after every turn so we made a rule that the record itself must not have any savestates in it and any records made in this version must have a video showing the full course time or lap time in it and you're allowed to use them only to get to the track you want to play. the intention was to keep the speed runs the same as if they were done in original hardware but to also allow the savestates to cut down on the time spent getting there due to a shortcoming of the original game.

also, this would only affect games with internal timers. since games without timers would have time count against them by reloading the savestate, a run without mistakes would still be better since you can't just erase the savestate. there's a delay between the time the game resumes and when it allows you to press buttons so the video can't be edited and still look smooth (we already tried this with F-Zero and the game doesn't register your input while reloading the save and only registers when the game is already running. this kills abusing high precision tricks)
at most, these savestates aren't on the level of the ones used by TASes and could benefit certain games. you can only have one at a time and you can't copy your save without exiting the game.

you can't playback the whole run as a single segment so the amount of segments is gonna look horrible and that stops it from being "just like a TAS".

there's bound to be 1 or 2 games where the savestates are gonna make a difference. ILs come to mind since, in games like the original F-Zero, there's several tracks that you can't set a time without having to replay several races and then you only get 5 chances since you get 5 lives in GP mode. the savestates eliminate a lot of the tedium since you can reload your state just before the track you want to improve and retry as long as it takes to get a record.

of course, at fzerocentral we saw that this could be abused to make savestates after every turn so we made a rule that the record itself must not have any savestates in it and any records made in this version must have a video showing the full course time or lap time in it and you're allowed to use them only to get to the track you want to play. the intention was to keep the speed runs the same as if they were done in original hardware but to also allow the savestates to cut down on the time spent getting there due to a shortcoming of the original game.

also, this would only affect games with internal timers. since games without timers would have time count against them by reloading the savestate, a run without mistakes would still be better since you can't just erase the savestate. there's a delay between the time the game resumes and when it allows you to press buttons so the video can't be edited and still look smooth (we already tried this with F-Zero and the game doesn't register your input while reloading the save and only registers when the game is already running. this kills abusing high precision tricks)
at most, these savestates aren't on the level of the ones used by TASes and could benefit certain games. you can only have one at a time and you can't copy your save without exiting the game.

UraniumAnchor

2013-04-10 08:50:26 pm

Not a walrus

ILs are a different matter entirely, we're talking about segments.

UchihaSasuke

2013-04-10 09:44:34 pm

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

ah i see.

in that case, not allowing them for segments would be best since there's no way to determine a rate of use that'll get approved by everyone. some might want to use just 1 or 3 or 47 and it'd end bad.

jfryk

2013-04-15 09:56:12 pm

This thread kind of drifted away from the question in the title about whether or not Wii U VC will be allowed for runs.

Obviously assuming that you don't use save states (or anything else that PC emulators can do) will the Wii U Virtual Console be allowed? Looks like UA might have answered this in the first reply, I just want to clarify before I start buying games.

UraniumAnchor

2013-04-15 10:01:23 pm

Not a walrus

Yes. It'll be treated the same as Wii VC unless differences from the original are found, in which case it might be a separate category.

Blubbler

Edit history:

Blubbler: 2013-04-16 05:33:28 am

2013-04-16 03:16:32 am

Just forbid emulator features not present in the original system? (besides faster processing etc which cannot be avoided)

UraniumAnchor

Edit history:

UraniumAnchor: 2013-04-16 09:39:05 am

2013-04-16 09:38:53 am

Not a walrus

Pretty much. Faster processing makes it more of a port than an "emulation", so for example N64 games that run faster would be a separate category if it was significant enough.