Wind Waker

2007-02-13 09:18:06 pm

Good luck DRybes! I'm looking forward to an improved Run Smiley

So I assume you don't get, or not much, nausea anymore from this game? (Atleast if I understood it correctly from that other thread, you got a little nausea from this game right?)

I once tried to get a chest without a chart but I didn't succeed. Although I wasn't aware that the place could be a little different at that moment, so I gave up on it Wink

But if you can fish them up then it's probably going to be a huge timebreaker Grin

DRybes

Edit history:

DRybes: 2007-02-13 11:28:33 pm

2007-02-13 11:27:33 pm

O Zlda?

Well, in my game I hadn't played spectacle island's cannon game, so I first saved, then beat it twice to get Treasure Chart 17, for ice ring island. I then went to ice ring island and used tissue paper to trace an exact copy of the 200x200 map with my boat on the proper spot to salvage the treasure. Then I hit reset and attempted to get this treasure without the chart by going to the exact location on the 200x200 as I was before. (I did not trace the 100x100 since it is a disproportional zoom-in. I used the side-by-side view.)

It's frustrating. The hook goes all the way down and the controller vibrates when it hits the bottom (indicating you're near a treasure), but you cannot actually get the treasure without the chart, even though you're clearly in the right place. Grrrr... I imagine the triforce charts are the same way, but I will check later when I get the last one, both before and after decoding it.

If anyone else wants to try duplicating my experiment with any other chart, feel free. I can't help but think I merely am screwing up a little. For what it's worth, I have a flat tube TV, so there's like an inch distance between the glass surface of the screen and the actual picture. This makes it difficult to trace the image, because depending on where my eyes are in relation to the screen, my image might be too high, too low, etc... but I definitely meandered around the area where it belongs (to a high precision) and even determined the small circumference within which you get a vibration on your controller (versus no vibration at all for "nothing is here or nearby"). It simply seems the treasure will not occur without a map. So I'm going to test the triforce charts too, because in that case you actually have the chart, it's merely a function of whether or not it is visible, and perhaps the game 'triggers' the occurance of said chests once you get the chart, and not once it's translated by tingle (at which point the light beam appears in the ocean).

Well, in my game I hadn't played spectacle island's cannon game, so I first saved, then beat it twice to get Treasure Chart 17, for ice ring island. I then went to ice ring island and used tissue paper to trace an exact copy of the 200x200 map with my boat on the proper spot to salvage the treasure. Then I hit reset and attempted to get this treasure without the chart by going to the exact location on the 200x200 as I was before. (I did not trace the 100x100 since it is a disproportional zoom-in. I used the side-by-side view.)

It's frustrating. The hook goes all the way down and the controller vibrates when it hits the bottom (indicating you're near a treasure), but you cannot actually get the treasure without the chart, even though you're clearly in the right place. Grrrr... I imagine the triforce charts are the same way, but I will check later when I get the last one, both before and after decoding it.

If anyone else wants to try duplicating my experiment with any other chart, feel free. I can't help but think I merely am screwing up a little. For what it's worth, I have a flat tube TV, so there's like an inch distance between the glass surface of the screen and the actual picture. This makes it difficult to trace the image, because depending on where my eyes are in relation to the screen, my image might be too high, too low, etc... but I definitely meandered around the area where it belongs (to a high precision) and even determined the small circumference within which you get a vibration on your controller (versus no vibration at all for "nothing is here or nearby"). It simply seems the treasure will not occur without a map. So I'm going to test the triforce charts too, because in that case you actually have the chart, it's merely a function of whether or not it is visible, and perhaps the game 'triggers' the occurance of said chests once you get the chart, and not once it's translated by tingle (at which point the light beam appears in the ocean).

xenos

2007-02-14 05:48:31 am

Quote:

How do you skip the final moblin?

The final moblin (the creatures that throw you in jail) can be skipped rolling fast enough and hugging the wall so he won't catch you. This is tricky to do and I haven't done much research into it but I think the moblin must be manipulated so he stops his patrol and looks around giving you a gap to run past him. For those that don't know what I'm talking about here is a diagram with the indicated path.

Quote:

It is quite easy, the runner should be able to bomb-boost without to much trouble. There's some skips later in the run that use bomb-boost too.

A different type of bomb boost though. I'm just saying that you wouldn't want to screw up a perfect segment by failing a trick that saves just one second.

TSA

2007-02-14 06:12:55 am

Retired

Isn't that sort of what I do in my run?

Anyway, I'd like to see a single-segment of this game.

DRybes

2007-02-14 08:18:09 am

O Zlda?

Well I did more messing around with charts and getting them early seems to be impossible. Oh well.

This game's simple enough to single segment. It's just dauntingly long. Do we have any other single segments over six hours? As far as the run is now, I don't like how many different segments there are to it. Then again, I hate downloading 20+ different files.

DJS

2007-02-14 08:28:58 am

torch slug since 2006

what i would like to see of this game is:

100%
SS
Segmented Improvement
low%

Amazing Ampharos

2007-02-14 08:35:06 am

I think the current longest SS is Donkey Kong 64 at around 4.5 hours, but I'm not sure. There's nothing wrong with setting that record though.

On SDA this seems to be by far the least favorite of the 3d Zeldas(most boring plus least breakable FTW), but I'm sure it could become a rather excellent speedrun. I would stick with using segments just because it's easier(you'll get the run out a lot faster and get a whole lot less sick of the extremely boring parts) and because it would be good to try to pull in the low end on the times for this game which savewarping is probably needed to do perfectly(I'm not sure of the exact respawn rules when saving and quitting in that game, unfortunately). SS would be really cool, but the start of this game and all the sailing is so painful that I'd think you'd want to minimize having to repeat that.

Zurreco

2007-02-14 08:40:27 am

Just call me the cynicism machine

Quote:

what i would like to see of this game is:

100%
SS
Segmented Improvement
low%

So... everything then?

DRybes

2007-02-14 09:01:14 am

O Zlda?

Quote:

I think the current longest SS is Donkey Kong 64 at around 4.5 hours, but I'm not sure. There's nothing wrong with setting that record though.

On SDA this seems to be by far the least favorite of the 3d Zeldas(most boring plus least breakable FTW), but I'm sure it could become a rather excellent speedrun. I would stick with using segments just because it's easier(you'll get the run out a lot faster and get a whole lot less sick of the extremely boring parts) and because it would be good to try to pull in the low end on the times for this game which savewarping is probably needed to do perfectly(I'm not sure of the exact respawn rules when saving and quitting in that game, unfortunately). SS would be really cool, but the start of this game and all the sailing is so painful that I'd think you'd want to minimize having to repeat that.

Still, a SS would be awesome. Segmented allows optimization of a lot of different invididual things using risky strategies, and allows for a simple restart if not every last roll is perfect, for example Roll Eyes

SS would definitely be about 6:20 at the very shortest. Oh well. You're allowed bathroom / tape switching breaks, so it can be done.

Everyone seems to be doing OoT, I don't own MM, I've never even played any of the ones that came out after MM, except for WW. I don't understand why people like WW the least, but whatever. On a related note, I made a new avatar that has to do with this run 8)

[quote]I think the current longest SS is Donkey Kong 64 at around 4.5 hours, but I'm not sure.  There's nothing wrong with setting that record though.

On SDA this seems to be by far the least favorite of the 3d Zeldas(most boring plus least breakable FTW), but I'm sure it could become a rather excellent speedrun.  I would stick with using segments just because it's easier(you'll get the run out a lot faster and get a whole lot less sick of the extremely boring parts) and because it would be good to try to pull in the low end on the times for this game which savewarping is probably needed to do perfectly(I'm not sure of the exact respawn rules when saving and quitting in that game, unfortunately).  SS would be really cool, but the start of this game and all the sailing is so painful that I'd think you'd want to minimize having to repeat that.[/quote]
Still, a SS would be awesome. Segmented allows optimization of a lot of different invididual things using risky strategies, and allows for a simple restart if not [i]every last roll[/i] is perfect, for example  ::) SS would definitely be about 6:20 at the very shortest. Oh well. You're allowed bathroom / tape switching breaks, so it can be done.

Everyone seems to be doing OoT, I don't own MM, I've never even played any of the ones that came out after MM, except for WW. I don't understand why people like WW the least, but whatever. On a related note, I made a new [url=http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v469/drybes/orly_link.png]avatar[/url] that has to do with this run  8)

DJS

2007-02-14 09:50:08 am

torch slug since 2006

nice avatar..

Peppyman

2007-02-14 12:25:08 pm

I'm glad someone is going to attempt this. Single segment would take ages practice wise. Also mistakes would be deadly in a single segment run.

Lazylen

2007-02-14 01:12:44 pm

fuck you i wont do what you tell me

you can't get triforce pieces without the maps.

if you use the tingle tuner, you're shown where the pieces are off the hop, but you cant get them because you dont have the charts.

DRybes

Edit history:

DRybes: 2007-02-14 01:35:06 pm

2007-02-14 01:33:04 pm

O Zlda?

Triforce chests cannot be collected without an interpreted chart. Searching exactly where the piece should be yields nothing, not even a nibble.

Treasure chests seem to be the same way... you must have the chart before you can collect it. I just got excited because when you search exactly where the chest should be, the controller vibrates when the hook hits the sea floor, indicating that you're very close to a treasure.

I really hate everything about Tingle, not least his name.

Single Segment isn't necessarily too bad. It's not chock full of total run-killers, other than maybe in the first hour or two. The two temples are smooth sailing (pardon the pun), then there's the annoying triforce shard collection process, which frustrates me the most because of how necessarily un-streamlined it is. But there are speedrun challenges a quarter of the length that are much more difficult to SS than this could ever be. I'll see how practice goes

Quote:

nice avatar..

Have you had that avatar before... the time of my last post, or did you just make it? I hope i didn't rip anyone off.

Triforce chests cannot be collected without an interpreted chart. Searching exactly where the piece should be yields nothing, not even a nibble.

Treasure chests seem to be the same way... you must have the chart before you can collect it. I just got excited because when you search exactly where the chest should be, the controller vibrates when the hook hits the sea floor, indicating that you're very close to a treasure.

I really hate everything about Tingle, not least his name.

Single Segment isn't necessarily too bad. It's not chock full of total run-killers, other than maybe in the first hour or two. The two temples are smooth sailing (pardon the pun), then there's the annoying triforce shard collection process, which frustrates me the most because of how necessarily un-streamlined it is. But there are speedrun challenges a quarter of the length that are much more difficult to SS than this could ever be. I'll see how practice goes

[quote]nice avatar.. [/quote]
Have you had that avatar before... the time of my last post, or did you just make it? I hope i didn't rip anyone off.

DJS

2007-02-14 03:31:33 pm

torch slug since 2006

The avatar you have have i never used. I just got inspiration so i maked one too

c4p7ain c0mp0s7

2007-02-14 07:44:53 pm

Food goes in here

Quote:

Still, a SS would be awesome. Segmented allows optimization of a lot of different invididual things using risky strategies, and allows for a simple restart if not every last roll is perfect, for example Roll Eyes

SS would definitely be about 6:20 at the very shortest. Oh well. You're allowed bathroom / tape switching breaks, so it can be done.

Why not do both an SS and segmented? That's a lot to ask I know.:P

Quote:

Triforce chests cannot be collected without an interpreted chart. Searching exactly where the piece should be yields nothing, not even a nibble.

Treasure chests seem to be the same way... you must have the chart before you can collect it. I just got excited because when you search exactly where the chest should be, the controller vibrates when the hook hits the sea floor, indicating that you're very close to a treasure.

Doesn't it vibrate every time your hook hits the bottom, even when there's no treasure nearby? Sorry, it's been a while since I played this.

As for run killers, I'd say the tower of gods SB by Kazooie would be one, in an SS anyway:

[quote]
Still, a SS would be awesome. Segmented allows optimization of a lot of different invididual things using risky strategies, and allows for a simple restart if not [i]every last roll[/i] is perfect, for example  ::) SS would definitely be about 6:20 at the very shortest. Oh well. You're allowed bathroom / tape switching breaks, so it can be done.[/quote]

Why not do both an SS and segmented? That's a lot to ask I know.:P

[quote]Triforce chests cannot be collected without an interpreted chart. Searching exactly where the piece should be yields nothing, not even a nibble.

Treasure chests seem to be the same way... you must have the chart before you can collect it. I just got excited because when you search exactly where the chest should be, the controller vibrates when the hook hits the sea floor, indicating that you're very close to a treasure.[/quote]

Doesn't it vibrate every time your hook hits the bottom, even when there's no treasure nearby? Sorry, it's been a while since I played this.

As for run killers, I'd say the tower of gods SB by Kazooie would be one, in an SS anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrX967tIiHI

DJS

2007-02-14 07:46:56 pm

torch slug since 2006

Off topic but.. Congratulations DRybes.. youre Senior Donkey Diddler.

Damn! Shall i hook up my gamecube and start playing this???
LOL. I have still not beaten TP.

DRybes

2007-02-14 10:21:38 pm

O Zlda?

Quote:

Why not do both an SS and segmented? That's a lot to ask I know.:P

Doesn't it vibrate every time your hook hits the bottom, even when there's no treasure nearby? Sorry, it's been a while since I played this.

As for run killers, I'd say the tower of gods SB by Kazooie would be one, in an SS anyway:

You know, maybe it is just random whether it vibrates. In my experience I've only dropped hook to get a chest, and missing the chest by a little always made a vibration when it hit the bottom, while being more than a little off always meant there wasn't any vibration at all (nowhere near paydirt). Will have to try it on random spots to find out. It still pains me to determine ways to get rupees faster. I'm considering 10 more floors of hell on outset island... that last rupee room has 400 rupees in it. by the same token, the enemies get a lot harder past the triforce chart floor. There are also various games of chance, skill, or luck combined with skill, which can be used to accumulate rupees faster, but are incredibly risky, especially since they have to be so late in the run (assuming a similar sequence to the current run, we don't get the largest wallet until 3/4 or more into the game. By that point we can accumulate 1000 rupees anyway, without going out of the way. We need the biggest wallet to begin getting very rich.)

When I was thinking about run killers, the tower of gods skip was explicitly what came to mind. Other than generic major mistakes, I still can't really think of any other things that would instantly necessitate a reset. It could be worse... they could have completed the game and had 3 dungeons before Tower of the Gods instead of 2... Tongue

[quote]

Why not do both an SS and segmented? That's a lot to ask I know.:P

Doesn't it vibrate every time your hook hits the bottom, even when there's no treasure nearby? Sorry, it's been a while since I played this.

As for run killers, I'd say the tower of gods SB by Kazooie would be one, in an SS anyway: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrX967tIiHI[/quote]
You know, maybe it is just random whether it vibrates. In my experience I've only dropped hook to get a chest, and missing the chest by a little always made a vibration when it hit the bottom, while being more than a little off always meant there wasn't any vibration at all (nowhere near paydirt). Will have to try it on random spots to find out. It still pains me to determine ways to get rupees faster. I'm considering 10 more floors of hell on outset island... that last rupee room has 400 rupees in it. by the same token, the enemies get a lot harder past the triforce chart floor. There are also various games of chance, skill, or luck combined with skill, which can be used to accumulate rupees faster, but are incredibly risky, especially since they have to be so late in the run (assuming a similar sequence to the current run, we don't get the largest wallet until 3/4 or more into the game. By that point we can accumulate 1000 rupees anyway, without going out of the way. We need the biggest wallet to begin getting very rich.)

When I was thinking about run killers, the tower of gods skip was explicitly what came to mind. Other than generic major mistakes, I still can't really think of any other things that would instantly necessitate a reset. It could be worse... they could have completed the game and had 3 dungeons before Tower of the Gods instead of 2...  :P

c4p7ain c0mp0s7

2007-02-14 11:27:48 pm

Food goes in here

Quote:

You know, maybe it is just random whether it vibrates. In my experience I've only dropped hook to get a chest, and missing the chest by a little always made a vibration when it hit the bottom, while being more than a little off always meant there wasn't any vibration at all (nowhere near paydirt). Will have to try it on random spots to find out. It still pains me to determine ways to get rupees faster. I'm considering 10 more floors of hell on outset island... that last rupee room has 400 rupees in it. by the same token, the enemies get a lot harder past the triforce chart floor. There are also various games of chance, skill, or luck combined with skill, which can be used to accumulate rupees faster, but are incredibly risky, especially since they have to be so late in the run (assuming a similar sequence to the current run, we don't get the largest wallet until 3/4 or more into the game. By that point we can accumulate 1000 rupees anyway, without going out of the way. We need the biggest wallet to begin getting very rich.)

When I was thinking about run killers, the tower of gods skip was explicitly what came to mind. Other than generic major mistakes, I still can't really think of any other things that would instantly necessitate a reset. It could be worse... they could have completed the game and had 3 dungeons before Tower of the Gods instead of 2... Tongue

Well TSA's way of accumulating enough rupees certainly is easy enough, enter pit, smash pillar, re-enter, repeat. But the enemies in this game are total pushovers, so if you were gonna go with the savage labyrinth route, it shouldn't be too hard I would think.

[quote]
You know, maybe it is just random whether it vibrates. In my experience I've only dropped hook to get a chest, and missing the chest by a little always made a vibration when it hit the bottom, while being more than a little off always meant there wasn't any vibration at all (nowhere near paydirt). Will have to try it on random spots to find out. It still pains me to determine ways to get rupees faster. I'm considering 10 more floors of hell on outset island... that last rupee room has 400 rupees in it. by the same token, the enemies get a lot harder past the triforce chart floor. There are also various games of chance, skill, or luck combined with skill, which can be used to accumulate rupees faster, but are incredibly risky, especially since they have to be so late in the run (assuming a similar sequence to the current run, we don't get the largest wallet until 3/4 or more into the game. By that point we can accumulate 1000 rupees anyway, without going out of the way. We need the biggest wallet to begin getting very rich.)

When I was thinking about run killers, the tower of gods skip was explicitly what came to mind. Other than generic major mistakes, I still can't really think of any other things that would instantly necessitate a reset. It could be worse... they could have completed the game and had 3 dungeons before Tower of the Gods instead of 2...  :P[/quote]

Well TSA's way of accumulating enough rupees certainly is easy enough, enter pit, smash pillar, re-enter, repeat. But the enemies in this game are total pushovers, so if you were gonna go with the savage labyrinth route, it shouldn't be too hard I would think.

DRybes

Edit history:

DRybes: 2007-02-15 10:03:58 am

2007-02-15 10:03:39 am

O Zlda?

His method is probably the fastest for the time. 100 rupees per iteration, versus 400 rupees for 9 floors of monsters that take a while to kill. Just trying to brainstorm

c4p7ain c0mp0s7

2007-02-15 11:03:06 pm

Food goes in here

Quote:

His method is probably the fastest for the time. 100 rupees per iteration, versus 400 rupees for 9 floors of monsters that take a while to kill. Just trying to brainstorm

How long does it take him? If doing the 9 floors proves to be faster, you should do that.

btw, do you know what segment that's in? I'll dl it and do some timing.

xenos

Edit history:

xenos: 2007-02-17 05:44:57 am

2007-02-16 10:59:38 am

Quote:

His method is probably the fastest for the time. 100 rupees per iteration, versus 400 rupees for 9 floors of monsters that take a while to kill. Just trying to brainstorm

It took me 3:20 to clear the first nine floors after three attempts and the monsters on levels 31-40 are annoying to kill so I'm guessing it would take perhaps 5:00 to clear those levels. TSA gets 100 rupees for 28 seconds of work as seen in part 19 of his speedrun.

Quote:

The final moblin (the creatures that throw you in jail) can be skipped rolling fast enough and hugging the wall so he won't catch you. This is tricky to do and I haven't done much research into it but I think the moblin must be manipulated so he stops his patrol and looks around giving you a gap to run past him. For those that don't know what I'm talking about here is a diagram with the indicated path.

I made a video of this trick. I also made a video of the ice isle trick I mentioned some time ago.

[quote]His method is probably the fastest for the time. 100 rupees per iteration, versus 400 rupees for 9 floors of monsters that take a while to kill. Just trying to brainstorm[/quote]
It took me 3:20 to clear the first nine floors after three attempts and the monsters on levels 31-40 are annoying to kill so I'm guessing it would take perhaps 5:00 to clear those levels. TSA gets 100 rupees for 28 seconds of work as seen in part 19 of his speedrun.
[quote]
The final moblin (the creatures that throw you in jail) can be skipped rolling fast enough and hugging the wall so he won't catch you. This is tricky to do and I haven't done much research into it but I think the moblin must be manipulated so he stops his patrol and looks around giving you a gap to run past him. For those that don't know what I'm talking about here is a diagram with the indicated path.[/quote]
I made a [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5_pmNeN0rk]video[/url] of this trick. I also made a [url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbSDcdvKj98]video[/url] of the ice isle trick I mentioned some time ago.

DJS

2007-02-16 11:26:57 am

torch slug since 2006

DRybes, do you have a dvd recorder/capture card so you can upload the segments so we can like watch them?

DRybes

Edit history:

DRybes: 2007-02-17 06:36:38 am

2007-02-17 06:34:51 am

O Zlda?

I have a radeon all in wonder 9600 pro but i'm selling this computer cause I'm broke, lol. I'll get a DVD recorder with some of the proceeds.

I wish there was a whole slew of WW fans working to break this game a little. Hell, I wish there was a whole slew of WW fans. But whatever. I should be able to record some stuff in a few weeks, for now I'm playing the game and looking for shortcuts and tricks.

Xenos... awesome videos. There's another 30 seconds saved.

DJS

2007-02-17 10:08:58 am

torch slug since 2006

omfg.. i hooked up my gamecube, planning to go and find glitches (im only in tower of gods o.0).

OK! Now I got an idea what im gonna do today, beat TWW again Cheesy

DRybes

2007-02-17 10:26:30 am

O Zlda?

Quote:

omfg.. i hooked up my gamecube, planning to go and find glitches (im only in tower of gods o.0).

OK! Now I got an idea what im gonna do today, beat TWW again Cheesy

You sound excited, did you find something, or something?