Wind Waker

2008-12-23 02:21:11 am

heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh heh

All hearts, all items (figurines and charts not included), all upgrades, all songs, and hurricane spin

http://speeddemosarchive.com/forum/index.php/topic,8824.0.html

DRybes

2008-12-26 12:57:17 am

O Zlda?

Quote from MrSparkle:

Viewing the Tetra text at the end of the previous segment may result in far better spotlight positions...

This did indeed turn out to be the case. In fact, timing was best when the tetra text AND the collection were done in the same segment... collection only took 9 extra seconds vs. no collection. The windfall one is also debatably under 12, (and the forest one under 2 if you're quick about it) so we're talking nearer a half minute here.

I need to hurry up with this so no one beats me...

xenos

2008-12-26 02:12:29 am

Quote from DRybes:

Quote from MrSparkle:

Viewing the Tetra text at the end of the previous segment may result in far better spotlight positions...

This did indeed turn out to be the case. In fact, timing was best when the tetra text AND the collection were done in the same segment... collection only took 9 extra seconds vs. no collection.

My timing placed the FF rupees at an additional 2-3 seconds in total when done according to MrSparkles route. Additionally, my best FF time including the rupee collection in the same segment is 5 seconds faster than your run on youtube even with many mistakes. For these two reasons, you should consider redoing this segment (then uploading it for the impatient humans like myself, of course). Personally, I'd aim for 8:05 in this segment from pressing start to pressing save.

MrSparkle

2008-12-26 03:35:36 am

Doin Good

5 seconds faster with "many mistakes"? That's curious/awesome, but I guess if with some minor battle improvements and a similar level of travel mistakes thats doable. My route in training says :

Link being launched then Tetra text -> Save -> 40 rupees then continuing the segment

Is that what you mean, Xenos? Testing the various methods of doing this part of a run is difficult and can largely come down to what the runner can better work with. There's lots of options. One could save after being launched, after the Tetra text, then after 40 rupees, or not at all (or even SS :P).

Catapulting then Tetra text then rupees -> Save -> Rest of area, was Drybes' choice...

Jumpslash a Miniblin with the Skull Hammer in just a way to clip it through the floor it stands on without hurting it (falls to it's death). Also when the water level peaks while fighting the Helmaroc King. There is a small part of a ledge where if you swim into it without holding a direction Link will very quickly start zipping out of the water then falling back in. Only lasts a few seconds, but all the water effects does slow the game down some, I think...

5 seconds faster with "many mistakes"? That's curious/awesome, but I guess if with some minor battle improvements and a similar level of travel mistakes thats doable. My route in training says :

Link being launched then Tetra text -> Save -> 40 rupees then continuing the segment

Is that what you mean, Xenos? Testing the various methods of doing this part of a run is difficult and can largely come down to what the runner can better work with. There's lots of options. One could save after being launched, after the Tetra text, then after 40 rupees, or not at all (or even SS :P).

Catapulting then Tetra text then rupees -> Save -> Rest of area, was Drybes' choice...

Jumpslash a Miniblin with the Skull Hammer in just a way to clip it through the floor it stands on without hurting it (falls to it's death). Also when the water level peaks while fighting the Helmaroc King. There is a small part of a ledge where if you swim into it without holding a direction Link will very quickly start zipping out of the water then falling back in. Only lasts a few seconds, but all the water effects does slow the game down some, I think...

DRybes

2008-12-27 01:09:00 pm

O Zlda?

Quote from Xenos:

Quote from DRybes:

Quote from MrSparkle:

Viewing the Tetra text at the end of the previous segment may result in far better spotlight positions...

This did indeed turn out to be the case. In fact, timing was best when the tetra text AND the collection were done in the same segment... collection only took 9 extra seconds vs. no collection.

My timing placed the FF rupees at an additional 2-3 seconds in total when done according to MrSparkles route. Additionally, my best FF time including the rupee collection in the same segment is 5 seconds faster than your run on youtube even with many mistakes. For these two reasons, you should consider redoing this segment (then uploading it for the impatient humans like myself, of course). Personally, I'd aim for 8:05 in this segment from pressing start to pressing save.

This is why I hesitate to advance too far :p but I do believe I can redo the segment without compromising later ones. I know in the YT I misaimed a few rolls / walking paths, especially up top at the end, and earlier after quickspinning the guard, and I know I had the sidle screw up on me like it loves to and link randomly stops moving for a second, but I'm not sure I could get much better than 5 seconds over that. What's your route? I'd like to try it.

[quote="Xenos"]
[quote="DRybes"]
[quote="MrSparkle"]
Viewing the Tetra text at the end of the previous segment may result in far better spotlight positions...
[/quote]

This did indeed turn out to be the case. In fact, timing was best when the tetra text AND the collection were done in the same segment... collection only took 9 extra seconds vs. no collection.[/quote]

My timing placed the FF rupees at an additional 2-3 seconds in total when done according to MrSparkles route. Additionally, my best FF time including the rupee collection in the same segment is 5 seconds faster than your run on youtube even with many mistakes. For these two reasons, you should consider redoing this segment (then uploading it for the impatient humans like myself, of course). Personally, I'd aim for 8:05 in this segment from pressing start to pressing save.
[/quote]

This is why I hesitate to advance too far :p but I do believe I can redo the segment without compromising later ones. I know in the YT I misaimed a few rolls / walking paths, especially up top at the end, and earlier after quickspinning the guard, and I know I had the sidle screw up on me like it loves to and link randomly stops moving for a second, but I'm not sure I could get much better than 5 seconds over that. What's your route? I'd like to try it.

Suddoman

2008-12-28 04:31:00 pm

Anyone got a link to a list of all the Heart Pieces? I never got them all when I first played it. Preferably with pic for some, otherwise I'd just use Game FAQs.

ZeroGX

2008-12-29 10:32:48 am

Hey guys I redid the first segment.

DRybes

2008-12-29 11:44:31 am

O Zlda?

Quote from Suddoman:

Anyone got a link to a list of all the Heart Pieces? I never got them all when I first played it. Preferably with pic for some, otherwise I'd just use Game FAQs.

GameFAQs has the information you need. Locations are enough for those, there's descriptions... why do you need a pic?

Suddoman

2008-12-29 02:18:20 pm

Quote from DRybes:

Quote from Suddoman:

Anyone got a link to a list of all the Heart Pieces? I never got them all when I first played it. Preferably with pic for some, otherwise I'd just use Game FAQs.

GameFAQs has the information you need. Locations are enough for those, there's descriptions... why do you need a pic?

I never 100%ed my game and I know that sometimes HP can be a bit tricky to find. Plus aren't some in sunken treasure chests, it would be nice to skip getting the chart if its a fixed location.

DRybes

2008-12-31 11:23:42 am

O Zlda?

Yeah unfortunately all the sunken items in this game require you to possess and have opened a chart to get them, even if you know their location (only possible with savefiles).

Were you working on a route for 100% or something? unreal made one I think, it's posted in here.

Suddoman

2008-12-31 11:25:35 pm

Quote from DRybes:

Yeah unfortunately all the sunken items in this game require you to possess and have opened a chart to get them, even if you know their location (only possible with savefiles).

Were you working on a route for 100% or something? unreal made one I think, it's posted in here.

Well before I go head into speedrunning anything I want to make sure I know how to get all items (prefferably threw getting them). It helps me better look at navigation and memorization of the maps.

DRybes

2009-02-06 02:55:40 am

O Zlda?

Just a little update, I am still working on this (took a few months off). Take what you will from it, but progress is slow because a segment is taking me, on average, about 250 attempts per minute long it is. Frustrating to the max. I wish I was like yauty and could lay out a half dozen segments in a 2 day time period. Right now it's going more at the rate of one segment a week at best.

VL3commando

2009-02-10 03:06:56 pm

Have u uploaded any runs on youtube?

Modified - Or going to soon?

DRybes

2009-02-11 01:10:18 am

O Zlda?

Yes, I put 11 on YT for you :p I have to say I'm disappointed in myself for missing the explosion-cutscene-roll, but then again, I haven't been able to make a time that good again even when i pull it off. I replied to your PM with a few tips, but you're going to have to scan through this thread for most of the info.

----- Rant time -----

After like the 4th time of thinking back and forth about whether the elixir soup is worth it, I decided I'm not going to collect it. Even with generous calculations, I came to what I think is a sound conclusion, that the most it could possibly save me is a second or two off the entire run. (For comparison, with these 2-5 minute long segments, rounding errors alone make that much discrepancy per 20 minutes of play.) Maybe I'm thinking too much like poker and too little like a run, but I think that if you're unsure about something and it seems to be a marginal situation, your gut is giving you that uncertainty because it's a bad play. I'm not gonna risk losing net time that I'd have to super-awesome-mega-backtrack to correct when my expected value for getting the soup is less than a clear, obvious minute.

Most of this comes from swordfighting techniques... I should start by saying why this is the only advantage of the soup. With this many segments, health loss is negligible, and it replenishes to 3 hearts every save. Magic also replenishes full at a save, since we're not getting a magic upgrade. So every 2-10 minutes, with maybe one or two exceptions where it matters, we get a free blue potion for saving and starting a new segment. And 80% usage of the soup is at the start of a segment. In route scoping and watching past runs I have not been able to find a situation yet where magic was needed and it wasn't < 2 seconds off the route. There are pots and grass everywhere and we will be hitting them anyway for arrows. Soup as a source of magic is inefficient everywhere (and finding me a solitary example won't help).

So - correct me if I'm seriously wrong here - the entire premise of soup is that it doubles your sword damage until you take a hit. So let's do some math. The cutscene for getting soup is 60 seconds long. It will take about 8-10 seconds off the beaten path to collect that fairy (maybe 5 in the fountain, but you'd have to select bottle in advance). It will also take at least 10 but probably more like 20 seconds to get in the house and talk to grandma on our windfall visit. So we're looking at 1:20 to 1:30 lost just from getting soup (lets be generous and say 1:20).

Here's the clincher... even optimally, at least 5 seconds of downtime when using the soup, with or without glitch. So each use of the soup will have to make up, on average, [(80 + 5n) / n] seconds, where n is total uses of the soup. Current route has 16 uses of the soup, putting us with 160 seconds (2:40) to make up total, so average of 10 seconds per use of the soup. If soup use saves about 10 seconds, the situation is break-even. We might break even on the soup uses against darknuts. An optimal Jalhalla fight (this has a segment to itself) is close to break even (2 hit poes instead of 1). Earth temple and wind temple executed well is close to break even, if not slightly better without soup (many enemies that we don't hit with the sword). There are also places where we know the soup can't save 10 seconds (phantom ganon at FF2). Eliminating soup instances only serves to increase the average time each soup use needs to make up!

So it all comes down to the two places where the soup obviously would save time: hyrule castle's hoard of baddies, and savage labrynth. I believe with enough retries and some strategy considerations, the hoard can be done pretty fast without soup (20-30 seconds difference), and the same for SL (which would be also in the range of 30-40 seconds saved, and also you can't get hit). Which still leaves like a minute to recover elsewhere, which I pretty much described.

Pass on the soup, you'll be glad you did later. It was a good idea but never got measured too critically, and I think I finally hit it. This is also totally ignoring how tiring it would get watching the soup being used.

Yes, I put 11 on YT for you :p I have to say I'm disappointed in myself for missing the explosion-cutscene-roll, but then again, I haven't been able to make a time that good again even when i pull it off. I replied to your PM with a few tips, but you're going to have to scan through this thread for most of the info.

----- Rant time -----

After like the 4th time of thinking back and forth about whether the elixir soup is worth it, I decided I'm [b]not[/b] going to collect it. Even with generous calculations, I came to what I think is a sound conclusion, that the most it could possibly save me is a second or two off the entire run. (For comparison, with these 2-5 minute long segments, rounding errors alone make that much discrepancy per 20 minutes of play.) Maybe I'm thinking too much like poker and too little like a run, but I think that if you're unsure about something and it seems to be a marginal situation, your gut is giving you that uncertainty because it's a bad play. I'm not gonna risk losing net time that I'd have to super-awesome-mega-backtrack to correct when my expected value for getting the soup is less than a clear, obvious minute.

Most of this comes from swordfighting techniques... I should start by saying why this is the only advantage of the soup. With this many segments, health loss is negligible, and it replenishes to 3 hearts every save. Magic also replenishes full at a save, since we're not getting a magic upgrade. So every 2-10 minutes, with maybe one or two exceptions where it matters, we get a free blue potion for saving and starting a new segment. And 80% usage of the soup is at the start of a segment. In route scoping and watching past runs I have not been able to find a situation yet where magic was needed and it wasn't < 2 seconds off the route. There are pots and grass everywhere and we will be hitting them anyway for arrows. Soup as a source of magic is inefficient everywhere (and finding me a solitary example won't help).

So - correct me if I'm seriously wrong here - the entire premise of soup is that it doubles your sword damage until you take a hit. So let's do some math. The cutscene for getting soup is 60 seconds long. It will take about 8-10 seconds off the beaten path to collect that fairy (maybe 5 in the fountain, but you'd have to select bottle in advance). It will also take at least 10 but probably more like 20 seconds to get in the house and talk to grandma on our windfall visit. So we're looking at 1:20 to 1:30 lost just from getting soup (lets be generous and say 1:20).

Here's the clincher... even optimally, at least 5 seconds of downtime when using the soup, with or without glitch. So each use of the soup will have to make up, on average, [(80 + 5n) / n] seconds, where n is total uses of the soup. Current route has 16 uses of the soup, putting us with 160 seconds (2:40) to make up total, so average of 10 seconds per use of the soup. If soup use saves about 10 seconds, the situation is break-even. We might break even on the soup uses against darknuts. An optimal Jalhalla fight (this has a segment to itself) is close to break even (2 hit poes instead of 1). Earth temple and wind temple executed well is close to break even, if not slightly better without soup (many enemies that we don't hit with the sword). There are also places where we know the soup can't save 10 seconds (phantom ganon at FF2). Eliminating soup instances only serves to increase the average time each soup use needs to make up!

So it all comes down to the two places where the soup obviously would save time: hyrule castle's hoard of baddies, and savage labrynth. I believe with enough retries and some strategy considerations, the hoard can be done pretty fast without soup (20-30 seconds difference), and the same for SL (which would be also in the range of 30-40 seconds saved, and also you can't get hit). Which still leaves like a minute to recover elsewhere, which I pretty much described.

Pass on the soup, you'll be glad you did later. It was a good idea but never got measured too critically, and I think I finally hit it. This is also totally ignoring how tiring it would get watching the soup being used.

VL3commando

2009-02-11 06:12:18 pm

Alright

Well i looked through the pages...(couldn't go through them all cause there is 85..)
Anyway...i read how Unreal's Sail rupee route is the fastest but couldn't find out which page it was on... Can someone tell me the route or
the page number? Smiley

Thanks!

Norrec

2009-02-12 01:18:03 pm

DRybes, don't be too critical of yourself. Your segments 3 and 11 are quite awesome. The double kill in segment 3 and things like the jump slashs in segment 11 make them impressive and enjoyable. The one second mistake in segment 11 only seems like a pain in the eye due to the flawlessness of the rest. Good job, dude!

DRybes

2009-02-12 03:42:20 pm

O Zlda?

Quote from Medeon:

DRybes, don't be too critical of yourself. Your segments 3 and 11 are quite awesome. The double kill in segment 3 and things like the jump slashs in segment 11 make them impressive and enjoyable. The one second mistake in segment 11 only seems like a pain in the eye due to the flawlessness of the rest. Good job, dude!

Thanks. I decided that very tiny mistakes should be fine if the rest of a segment goes well, and it's helping my progress.

Quote from VL3commando:

Alright

Well i looked through the pages...(couldn't go through them all cause there is 85..)
Anyway...i read how Unreal's Sail rupee route is the fastest but couldn't find out which page it was on... Can someone tell me the route or
the page number? Smiley

Thanks!

The sail rupee route is in the very first post of the thread, and talked about only a couple pages back, but here's the gist:
[x] Don't get the 100 under the house
[x] In the forest when you rescue tetra, quickspin the log for 20 rupees (see my segment 3 on YT)
[x] When you arrive at the forsaken fortress, or during your forsaken fortress segment, whichever you want (I think the first way's faster), run into the courtyard that's right there at the start, avoid the lights, and collect the 2 red rupees for 40 rupees. If you do this in the same segment you launch into the fortress, you can save and end the segment immediately after you grab them.
[x] When you get to windfall after the FF, make your way as normal to zunari's stall to buy the sail, but right before you arrive, turn right down the path there. If you follow it down it goes down to a small dock... anyway there's a pot towards the top, right off a small ledge. It randomly has either a blue, yellow, or red rupee in it. Keep retrying the segment until it has a red rupee, for 20. Now you have 80, head right over and buy the sail.

[quote="Medeon"]
DRybes, don't be too critical of yourself. Your segments 3 and 11 are quite awesome. The double kill in segment 3 and things like the jump slashs in segment 11 make them impressive and enjoyable. The one second mistake in segment 11 only seems like a pain in the eye due to the flawlessness of the rest. Good job, dude!
[/quote]
Thanks. I decided that very tiny mistakes should be fine if the rest of a segment goes well, and it's helping my progress.

[quote="VL3commando"]
Alright

Well i looked through the pages...(couldn't go through them all cause there is 85..)
Anyway...i read how Unreal's Sail rupee route is the fastest but couldn't find out which page it was on... Can someone tell me the route or
the page number? :)  ;D Thanks! 
[/quote]

The sail rupee route is in the very first post of the thread, and talked about only a couple pages back, but here's the gist:
[x] Don't get the 100 under the house
[x] In the forest when you rescue tetra, quickspin the log for 20 rupees (see my segment 3 on YT)
[x] When you arrive at the forsaken fortress, or during your forsaken fortress segment, whichever you want (I think the first way's faster), run into the courtyard that's right there at the start, avoid the lights, and collect the 2 red rupees for 40 rupees. If you do this in the same segment you launch into the fortress, you can save and end the segment immediately after you grab them.
[x] When you get to windfall after the FF, make your way as normal to zunari's stall to buy the sail, but right before you arrive, turn right down the path there. If you follow it down it goes down to a small dock... anyway there's a pot towards the top, right off a small ledge. It randomly has either a blue, yellow, or red rupee in it. Keep retrying the segment until it has a red rupee, for 20. Now you have 80, head right over and buy the sail.

VL3commando

2009-02-12 06:40:56 pm

Alright thanks! Cheesy

Yeah i found the route earlier today but the way you put it makes it easier to understand. Smiley

Anyways...was going to start the run today.. but had too much homework so i'm going to start tomorrow. Hopefully i can get a few
segments done. And is the fastest route that your taking the one thats on the first page? The one from Unreal?

Thanks Cheesy

DRybes

2009-02-12 07:14:24 pm

O Zlda?

Quote from VL3commando:

And is the fastest route that your taking the one thats on the first page? The one from Unreal?

yep. not sure if the 100% route is there, but yeah.

post on youtube when you do it :p

VL3commando

2009-02-12 07:33:43 pm

Alright thanks Cheesy

I'll post them on youtube as soon as i can.

Just wondering what does the get 15-35 rupees on your way to DR...how is that even possible? And why do u need it?

---Segment 9---
-Fast sail to Dragon Roost
-Get between 15-35 rupees on way to DR
-Obtain Wind Waker
-Get Wind's Requiem
-Save

Modified- By the way...i might do a 100% Speed Run...But not sure yet...

DRybes

2009-02-12 11:44:52 pm

O Zlda?

I think you should do the 100%. It would be an interesting category.

The 15-35 refers to the rupees that sometimes pop out of the water on barrels as you sail from windfall to dragon roost. I redid my sailing until a red rupee appeared on the way. It's free money, may as well take it, otherwise not too important.

VL3commando

Edit history:

VL3commando: 2009-02-13 07:39:27 pm

2009-02-13 12:20:29 am

Alright thanks for clearing that up.... Haven't played wind waker in a while Smiley

100% would be interesting to do but still not sure yet.... Huh?

I also have to see if my video quality is good enough because i finally got my recording equipment

How did u take down the enemies so fast in segment 3?

Modified - Decided to do a normal speed run.... It's my first speed run so didn't want to start off with a 100% run...

VL3commando

Edit history:

VL3commando: 2009-02-13 11:15:17 pm

2009-02-13 10:42:10 pm

Alright...so when i get the boat...to "fast sail" r u suppose to keep unequiping and then equiping the sail over and over again?

Modified - Well before i start a run i have 1 more question....If i started a file on slot 1.....would the next segment have to start on slot 1 too?
Because i was wanting to copy that slot onto slot 2, and if i were to save and later regret it i could go back to slot 1 and re-do that segment.... Not sure if that really makes sense.. Smiley

Example - Slot 1 island
Slot 2 island

If i were to play on slot 2 and save..... and later found out there was a faster way i could just erase slot 2 and copy slot 1.....
If it is possible to do this do i have to show it on the recording?

Thanks

Kryal

2009-02-15 08:56:58 am

from red to blue

You are able to copy save data onto another slot. Many 3D Zelda runs do that.

VL3commando

2009-02-15 11:23:43 am

So you are able to copy a slot to another one?