What counts as New Game + ?

2009-04-29 09:09:43 am

Many Games feature unlockables to be used in new games, as well as a regular New Game+ option.
RE4 and Mass Effect come to mind. Both have unlockable hard modes, as well as the ability to start a game with equipment carried over. Would playing on Professional in RE4 or Insanity in Mass Effect count as a New Game, or a New Game+?
To make things even more complicated, Mass Effect has the ability to add bonus skills to new characters, but only after getting an achievement. There are also buffs (such as cooldown reduction or experience bonus) that are tied to achievements, and are applied to all save games. If a game that uses previous achievements counts as new game +, then there are other problems that arise. Even if you make a new profile for the new game run, any sort of achievement that relies on a tally is earned whether you save or not. For example, you get a damage buff achievement when you kill 150 enemies. If you retry the first area with enemies enough times (as you might), you'll eventually get that achievement. How would that be any different than going through the game beforehand to get the achievements, so that you can use them in your run?

Thread title:

Many Games feature unlockables to be used in new games, as well as a regular New Game+ option.
RE4 and Mass Effect come to mind. Both have unlockable hard modes, as well as the ability to start a game with equipment carried over. Would playing on Professional in RE4 or Insanity in Mass Effect count as a New Game, or a New Game+?
To make things even more complicated, Mass Effect has the ability to add bonus skills to new characters, but only after getting an achievement. There are also buffs (such as cooldown reduction or experience bonus) that are tied to achievements, and are applied to all save games. If a game that uses previous achievements counts as new game +, then there are other problems that arise. Even if you make a new profile for the new game run, any sort of achievement that relies on a tally is earned whether you save or not. For example, you get a damage buff achievement when you kill 150 enemies. If you retry the first area with enemies enough times (as you might), you'll eventually get that achievement. How would that be any different than going through the game beforehand to get the achievements, so that you can use them in your run?

ZenicReverie

2009-04-29 09:19:59 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

It's hard to define for all games since it could be different for each. The achievements for Mass Effect sound like an interesting problem if the kill count is saved separately each time a game is saved (or even auto saved), making segmented runs difficult to differentiate from a new game+ run where all the achievements have been unlocked. It's something to consider in a thread discussing the game though.

For some general answers, unlockable characters and modes are listed in a separate category, but aren't always marked as new game+. Instead they may just be marked as Insanity Difficulty. New game+ as a category is usually reserved for runs that have experience or items carried over from a previous play session.

For your example of Mass Effect, since I haven't played that game, is it similar to how Star Ocean 3 had a separate save of Battle Trophies? If that's the case, then is there a way to clear that data or choose not to save those achievements?

Linkinito

2009-04-29 09:52:06 am

This is my avatar

By definition, a New Game + is a game where you use a save that restart the game, but when you still have elements from previous games (like you keep weapons, money, objects, etc.). But unlocked modes aren't, if you unlock an hard mode without keeping all your belongings, it's not considered as New Game +.

Flip

2009-04-29 12:31:39 pm

1-Up!

I've understood that the New Game + category encompasses anything that doesnt fit the "out of the box" description.

This is somewhat of an over-simplification, as you can play through the game once so that cutscenes are skippable rather than mandatory in your NG run.

There are other exceptions, but any run that utilizes unlockable material will be deemed NG+.

AmazingAmpharos

2009-04-30 05:30:31 am

I don't recall fighting game runs that use secret characters being labeled as new game+ so that's not the only criteria. Actually, in a run like SSBB classic mode, unlocking everything versus not unlocking everything (or doing something in-between) radically changes the run but is pretty unaddressed by the rules.

Fighting games seem to be the only ones that get that treatment though. Otherwise, the standard seems to be that utilizing any feature that gives the player a material advantage in the actual gameplay that is only available via prior play causes the run to be tossed into new game+.

your_name_here

2009-04-30 05:57:38 am

Quote from ZenicReverie:

For your example of Mass Effect, since I haven't played that game, is it similar to how Star Ocean 3 had a separate save of Battle Trophies? If that's the case, then is there a way to clear that data or choose not to save those achievements?

I haven't played SO3, but the achievements are saved as a part of your Xbox live account. They cannot be disabled. I went through the save files, and there doesn't appear to be a file linked to achievement data, meaning that it loads the achievement data from your xbox live account. The only way to clear achievement data would be to delete the account, which also has the notable side-effect of deleting your save game.

Quote from AmazingAmpharos:

The standard seems to be that utilizing any feature that gives the player a material advantage in the actual gameplay that is only available via prior play causes the run to be tossed into new game+.

One of the problems with mass effect is that I'm pretty sure it's impossible to unlock insanity (by beating the game on normal, then on hardcore difficulty) without unlocking some sort of buff achievement. And it's definitely impossible to beat the game twice without having progress in any tally-based achievement, meaning that you could unlock them much earlier than you would have been able to in an NG run. This is, of course, already assuming that all runs are single segment to avoid achievement grinding in an unseen segment.

[quote="ZenicReverie"]
For your example of Mass Effect, since I haven't played that game, is it similar to how Star Ocean 3 had a separate save of Battle Trophies?  If that's the case, then is there a way to clear that data or choose not to save those achievements?
[/quote]

I haven't played SO3, but the achievements are saved as a part of your Xbox live account. They cannot be disabled. I went through the save files, and there doesn't appear to be a file linked to achievement data, meaning that it loads the achievement data from your xbox live account. The only way to clear achievement data would be to delete the account, which also has the notable side-effect of deleting your save game.

[quote="AmazingAmpharos"]
The standard seems to be that utilizing any feature that gives the player a material advantage in the actual gameplay that is only available via prior play causes the run to be tossed into new game+.
[/quote]

One of the problems with mass effect is that I'm pretty sure it's impossible to unlock insanity (by beating the game on normal, then on hardcore difficulty) without unlocking some sort of buff achievement. And it's definitely impossible to beat the game twice without having progress in any tally-based achievement, meaning that you could unlock them much earlier than you would have been able to in an NG run. This is, of course, already assuming that all runs are single segment to avoid achievement grinding in an unseen segment.

ZenicReverie

2009-04-30 11:07:57 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

You say it may be linked to the Xbox Live account? What if you played offline? I mean you don't need an account to play the game do you? I don't have a 360, so forgive my ignorance if I'm suggesting something not possible, but can you log out of an account and still play the game? That way it's no being recorded as an achievement?

your_name_here

2009-04-30 12:31:21 pm

Quote from ZenicReverie:

You say it may be linked to the Xbox Live account? What if you played offline? I mean you don't need an account to play the game do you? I don't have a 360, so forgive my ignorance if I'm suggesting something not possible, but can you log out of an account and still play the game? That way it's no being recorded as an achievement?

If you play it offline, you still get the achievements, and you need an account to play. If you log out, it will quit to the title screen and ask you to log in.

ZenicReverie

2009-04-30 03:32:12 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Any idea if those same achievements happen on the Windows version? It may not be possible to run through the game normally then without being single segment. New game + isn't required to have a pure new game run up anymore, so that's not an issue.

your_name_here

2009-05-02 09:00:57 am

There are still achievements in the windows version. I don't really know much beyond that. I'd assume that you'd be able to clear achievement data, since it'd have to be stored in a different file than the save games themselves.

bimanc

2009-05-02 04:17:48 pm

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

I don't know too much about Mass Effect, but on pc, you can play these games logged out from Live, and then, you won't be able to unlock achievements. At least it works like this in games like Halo 2 or Lost Planet.

your_name_here

2009-05-03 05:22:37 am

Quote from bimanc:

I don't know too much about Mass Effect, but on pc, you can play these games logged out from Live, and then, you won't be able to unlock achievements. At least it works like this in games like Halo 2 or Lost Planet.

Mass Effect isn't on Windows Live.

Sir VG

2009-05-03 05:52:15 am

Fucking Weeaboo

While I'm not the rule maker here, here's my thoughts on NG+.

Difficulties unlocked via beating the game:
It should be counted as NG+, unless your character starts from scratch (aka you start at the same level/stats you did when you first played the game). Most games don't do this (Dawn of Mana, for instance, allows you to keep your emblems between games, so playing on Hard would be NG+ due to this). Probably the best example of a game I can come up with right now that does is Castlevania III, assuming you beat the game and start the harder difficulty alone.

Bonus content unlocked:
If the achievements are only "trophies", then that doesn't matter. For instance, MM9's rankings are only to show what you've done, but don't affect the game. If they directly affect the character/game (theoretical example: if you kill 1000 zombies you become a zombie who moves faster then normal human speed), then it's NG+. At least on the PC, you definitely have a way to just backup your save files and start from scratch. I don't know about the Xbrick360 though if that can be backed up/locked out.

While I'm not the rule maker here, here's my thoughts on NG+.

Difficulties unlocked via beating the game:
It should be counted as NG+, unless your character starts from scratch (aka you start at the same level/stats you did when you first played the game).  Most games don't do this (Dawn of Mana, for instance, allows you to keep your emblems between games, so playing on Hard would be NG+ due to this).  Probably the best example of a game I can come up with right now that does is Castlevania III, assuming you beat the game and start the harder difficulty alone.

Bonus content unlocked:
If the achievements are only "trophies", then that doesn't matter.  For instance, MM9's rankings are only to show what you've done, but don't affect the game.  If they directly affect the character/game (theoretical example: if you kill 1000 zombies you become a zombie who moves faster then normal human speed), then it's NG+.  At least on the PC, you definitely have a way to just backup your save files and start from scratch.  I don't know about the Xbrick360 though if that can be backed up/locked out.

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2009-05-10 01:04:29 am

2009-05-10 12:53:53 am

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

New Game + is maybe a poor name for the category since what we care about here doesn't match the actual definition too well. Also it's a confusing term which means nothing unless you know the definition, which is fuzzy amongst gamers to begin with. MT (our Japanese contact/translator) had to ask what NG+ meant, and of course he knows Chrono Trigger (the English-language originator of the term) very well!

Maybe we need a new name (unlockables). But at any rate, it's just non-out-of-the-box stuff that doesn't already fit into another category. For example, unlockable difficulties and characters are already separate categories. So we don't need to classify Star Ocean 3's 4D difficulty run as NG+, because it's impossible to have a non-NG+ 4D run.

For achievements and other stuff saved to your profile, using this counts as NG+/unlockables. To get around it, make a new profile. This is exactly what Mike is doing for Castle Crashers. Yes, you'll have to do this a lot if your game is like Mass Effect.

I could be wrong about some of this because we've always felt our way with intuition instead of rigidly defining this (which could be a bad idea anyway).

Edit to be really clear:

Quote from your_name_here:

One of the problems with mass effect is that I'm pretty sure it's impossible to unlock insanity (by beating the game on normal, then on hardcore difficulty) without unlocking some sort of buff achievement. And it's definitely impossible to beat the game twice without having progress in any tally-based achievement, meaning that you could unlock them much earlier than you would have been able to in an NG run. This is, of course, already assuming that all runs are single segment to avoid achievement grinding in an unseen segment.

All unlockables are a category, so an insanity run by nature would be allowed to use any and all achievements. It's the only way. There is already precedent. The SO3 4D run was allowed to use anything unlockable through battle trophies (essentially achievements).

And you're right, if you want a no-unlockables run, you're going to have to single-segment or make few enough segments not to trigger the achievement buffs.

Another edit: Also, nobody has to weigh in on NG+ vs unlockables terminology. I've already decided we should go with unlockables.

New Game + is maybe a poor name for the category since what we care about here doesn't match the actual definition too well. Also it's a confusing term which means nothing unless you know the definition, which is fuzzy amongst gamers to begin with. MT (our Japanese contact/translator) had to ask what NG+ meant, and of course he knows Chrono Trigger (the English-language originator of the term) very well!

Maybe we need a new name (unlockables). But at any rate, it's just non-out-of-the-box stuff that doesn't already fit into another category. For example, unlockable difficulties and characters are already separate categories. So we don't need to classify Star Ocean 3's 4D difficulty run as NG+, because it's impossible to have a non-NG+ 4D run.

For achievements and other stuff saved to your profile, using this counts as NG+/unlockables. To get around it, make a new profile. This is exactly what Mike is doing for Castle Crashers. Yes, you'll have to do this a lot if your game is like Mass Effect.

I could be wrong about some of this because we've always felt our way with intuition instead of rigidly defining this (which could be a bad idea anyway).

Edit to be really clear:

[quote="your_name_here"]
One of the problems with mass effect is that I'm pretty sure it's impossible to unlock insanity (by beating the game on normal, then on hardcore difficulty) without unlocking some sort of buff achievement. And it's definitely impossible to beat the game twice without having progress in any tally-based achievement, meaning that you could unlock them much earlier than you would have been able to in an NG run. This is, of course, already assuming that all runs are single segment to avoid achievement grinding in an unseen segment.
[/quote]
All unlockables are a category, so an insanity run by nature would be allowed to use any and all achievements. It's the only way. There is already precedent. The SO3 4D run was allowed to use anything unlockable through battle trophies (essentially achievements).

And you're right, if you want a no-unlockables run, you're going to have to single-segment or make few enough segments not to trigger the achievement buffs.

[color=orange]Another edit: Also, nobody has to weigh in on NG+ vs unlockables terminology. I've already decided we should go with unlockables.[/color]

your_name_here

2009-05-14 07:18:09 am

So does that mean that an NG Professional RE4 run has no place on this website? Or do you mean that both an Insanity NG and an Insanity NG+ Mass Effect run would both be allowed to use achievement?

ZenicReverie

2009-05-14 07:32:35 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from your_name_here:

So does that mean that an NG Professional RE4 run has no place on this website? Or do you mean that both an Insanity NG and an Insanity NG+ Mass Effect run would both be allowed to use achievement?

Insanity difficulty is unlockable, so running through on that difficulty is already NG+. Since you're already in that category, you might as well have all achievements unlocked before you start your run. There is no way to do a non-NG+ Insanity difficulty run.

MMAN

2009-05-14 07:46:25 am

Is is possible to transfer saves between profiles? Because if not I'm wondering how you could handle a game with permanent bonuses (at least from what I can tell from this thread) like Mass Effect outside of doing the whole game in one go. Of course if you can transfer it's sorted out already.

mikwuyma

Enhasa

Edit history:

Enhasa: 2009-05-15 01:56:22 am

2009-05-14 07:49:08 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from Enhasa:

New Game + is maybe a poor name for the category since what we care about here doesn't match the actual definition too well. Also it's a confusing term which means nothing unless you know the definition, which is fuzzy amongst gamers to begin with. MT (our Japanese contact/translator) had to ask what NG+ meant, and of course he knows Chrono Trigger (the English-language originator of the term) very well!

Sorry to be picky, but I think you're confusing MT with Inichi :-/.

Nah, I meant MT. Undecided

ZenicReverie: You're wrong, Insane difficulty in Mass Effect (If I'm correct) is only new game + because you will always get some sort of permanent buff before unlocking the difficulty. If you can start a clean file from an unlockable difficulty, then it's considered a new game run (see RE4 Professional or God of War God mode).

ZenicReverie

2009-05-14 07:59:45 am

Waiting hurts my soul...

Quote from mikwuyma:

ZenicReverie: You're wrong, Insane difficulty in Mass Effect (If I'm correct) is only new game + because you will always get some sort of permanent buff before unlocking the difficulty. If you can start a clean file from an unlockable difficulty, then it's considered a new game run (see RE4 Professional or God of War God mode).

This is what I based that statement on:

Quote from Enhasa:

All unlockables are a category, so an insanity run by nature would be allowed to use any and all achievements. It's the only way. There is already precedent. The SO3 4D run was allowed to use anything unlockable through battle trophies (essentially achievements).

your_name_here

2009-05-14 01:28:22 pm

I'm still confused. So, NG Insanity with achievements is in the same category of run as NG+ Insanity?

ZenicReverie

2009-05-14 03:18:02 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

Mike says that if the only unlockable is the difficulty mode, then it can be considered a new game run. Once you add in the unlockable achievements though, it becomes NG+.

And if I'm wrong again, I'm just going to shut up on this topic.

Riskbreaker Y

2009-05-19 12:29:53 pm

berserker status

So i have a question and it seems like this thread is the best place to ask it. I was wondering about a hundred percent speed run of Vagrant Story. Since the only way you can get 100% chest completion in that game (probably the best way to measure 100% in this particular title) is by starting a new game +, would the run be categorized as a "new game +" or simply "100%" or both??? Please note that statistics do carry over from previous playthroughs as well as weapons, armor, shields, etc. Just a query i've had for awhile. Would it be better to stock up on strong weapons and build up stats for a 100% or would any new game + save do??? Thanks for answering in advance.

Enhasa

2009-05-19 01:06:28 pm

everybody wanna tell you the meaning of music

A 100% starting from a new game (even if it continues playing after beating the final boss) is a (new game) 100%. A NG+ 100% would be starting the entire run from NG+.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant.

Riskbreaker Y

2009-05-19 01:13:06 pm

berserker status

Quote from Enhasa:

A 100% starting from a new game (even if it continues playing after beating the final boss) is a (new game) 100%. A NG+ 100% would be starting the entire run from NG+.

Sorry if I misunderstood what you meant.

Don't worry, i'm just as confused otherwise i wouldn't be asking this question...i'm still a bit fuzzy though. i'll worry about this definition later in the future...i was just curious! Grin

ZenicReverie

2009-05-19 01:28:09 pm

Waiting hurts my soul...

uhhh, to take a stab at guessing, I could be very wrong, I'd say if you wanted a new game 100% instead of NG+ 100%, you'd need to run through the game twice. Any time when you'd load from a previous save to start a new game run would be considered NG+. Does that sound right?