Warcraft 3 TFT / RoC

Liderharen

Edit history:

Liderharen: 2011-10-18 02:55:07 pm

Liderharen: 2011-10-18 02:54:41 pm

2011-10-18 02:50:11 pm

Thx for the tips guys. Smiley

VODs are up at http://da.twitch.tv/warcraftspeedruns/videos

I think I accidently deleted the vod from my first streaming session Sad

(at least i cant find it anymore but whatever)

Hmm... I guess moving blocker at each end of the tunnel will be too difficult. I dont think I have enough ghouls for it, but its certainly worth testing out.

Next time I probably have to put some more time in seeing if I can avoid attack the two knights. Since it doesnt matter how low my ghouls are for the fight vs uther, I could potentially just engage the blue paladin with his 3 footmen bodyguards. As long as i dont lose any ghouls It should be fine. And getting past the blue base isnt a problem anymore because of the shortcut through the trees.

zoonel

2011-10-18 03:22:02 pm

Go play spacechem !

Maybe try to make the tunnel with curves, it takes a lot more time to turn,move,turn,move,turn.

Archanfel

2011-10-18 03:24:55 pm

Wonderful session (especially second half thumbsup

).
I hope next tuesday you will dot one's i's and cross one's t's.
Btw, whereas additional Ghouls unnecessary now, you can build graveyard first and upgrade attack-power. And "Tunnel of Death" will be +10% effective .

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 06:18:30 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 06:17:26 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 06:14:33 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 06:11:36 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 06:11:09 am

2011-10-19 06:10:06 am

Quote from zoonel:

Maybe try to make the tunnel with curves, it takes a lot more time to turn,move,turn,move,turn.

This gives me an idea.

Sorry for the shitness of the picture. I made this in GIMP again by copying and pasting units and sections of land.

However, the basic idea is: it's a semicircular tunnel. The one ghoul at the centre of the circle can attack Uther constantly. Ideally we'd like Arthas to be in that spot instead of a ghoul but I don't know if that is possible; perhaps if we made the tunnel the other way round so that the exits face north instead of south, it'd be possible to get Arthas to the key point without letting Uther escape? Anyway, as before, a ghoul runs back and forth blocking each exit in turn and Uther can't escape the tunnel, but at the same time he always has an open path to his destination.

Essentially this idea achieves the same result as having a blocker at both ends of the tunnel, only we use the same ghoul for blocking both ends.

[quote="zoonel"]Maybe try to make the tunnel with curves, it takes a lot more time to turn,move,turn,move,turn.[/quote]

This gives me an idea.

[img]http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/attachment/1RIwGOUssyuNyuYdUObEvyXiGxs[/img]

Sorry for the shitness of the picture. I made this in GIMP again by copying and pasting units and sections of land.

However, the basic idea is: it's a semicircular tunnel. The one ghoul at the centre of the circle can attack Uther constantly. Ideally we'd like Arthas to be in that spot instead of a ghoul but I don't know if that is possible; perhaps if we made the tunnel the other way round so that the exits face north instead of south, it'd be possible to get Arthas to the key point without letting Uther escape? Anyway, as before, a ghoul runs back and forth blocking each exit in turn and Uther can't escape the tunnel, but at the same time he always has an open path to his destination.

Essentially this idea achieves the same result as having a blocker at both ends of the tunnel, only we use the same ghoul for blocking both ends.

Attachment:

bettertunnel.png

P.Ommes

2011-10-19 08:51:02 am

watching the 2nd VOD right now. Will you split this level into two, maybe three segments? It seems so insanly hard to be done in a single one. Incredible job btw!

MrKrautsaftnudel

2011-10-19 09:34:01 am

I don't think that you can split it, because that's not the idea of a speedrun. Maybe we should find a safer way where you don't have to depend on luck, even if you would lose some time. In the end you will beat Stupids time by far anyway Wink

But let's find out what's possible Smiley

Liderharen

2011-10-19 10:48:52 am

Apart from the beginning (which is acceptable given that it is the beginning) and the end, there isnt really that much randomness in this level compared to previous chapters that I have played. It shouldnt be a significant problem to beat the level in one sitting. I just have to settle for a way to beat uther that is fast, but also consisent!

The circle tunnel looks really cute. Seems like that might be very close to what I end up doing.

ExplodingCabbage

Edit history:

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 11:56:08 am

ExplodingCabbage: 2011-10-19 11:55:44 am

2011-10-19 11:54:01 am

Quote from MrKrautsaftnudel:

I don't think that you can split it, because that's not the idea of a speedrun.

Well, that's not true. But this speedrun is a one-segment-per-level run and it would obviously be stupid to start splitting levels up in segments at this point. Nor has Liderharen expressed any interest in doing a more heavily segmented run.

Archanfel

2011-10-19 02:24:11 pm

Quote from Liderharen:

Next time I probably have to put some more time in seeing if I can avoid attack the two knights.

Here my solution:

ExplodingCabbage

2011-10-19 03:20:34 pm

Quote from Archanfel:

Quote from Liderharen:

Next time I probably have to put some more time in seeing if I can avoid attack the two knights.

Here my solution:

I like this. I like it a lot. Smiley

Artur1

2011-10-20 09:47:41 am

Wait to run, i have one crazy idea.

Archanfel

Edit history:

Archanfel: 2011-10-20 11:49:45 am

2011-10-20 10:09:49 am

Even crazier than mine? Shocked

I start to love this chapter more and more. I can't wait what to see it.
Hope that it's not about 3 footman's Changing of the Guard, because it very obvious.

MrKrautsaftnudel

2011-10-20 01:57:18 pm

It's really cool how far we improved in this annoying chapter ! Will be nice to see the first results.
And I am looking forward to your crazy ideas as always Artur Smiley

Artur1

Edit history:

Artur1: 2011-10-21 03:41:01 am

Artur1: 2011-10-21 12:52:27 am

Artur1: 2011-10-21 12:46:07 am

2011-10-20 03:53:17 pm

Quote from Archanfel:

And WTF, look like a rooms of improvement still exist: Get an urn from the blue paladin.

Here question not how to get an urn faster, but how to build a base faster.

Archanfel

Edit history:

Archanfel: 2011-10-21 04:54:03 am

Archanfel: 2011-10-21 04:09:36 am

Archanfel: 2011-10-21 03:59:33 am

Archanfel: 2011-10-20 07:13:08 pm

Archanfel: 2011-10-20 07:12:19 pm

2011-10-20 06:08:55 pm

Great unification of all ideas and glitches! Amazing job Artur.
And WTF, look like a rooms of improvement still exist: Get an urn from the blue paladin.

Quote from Artur1:

Here question not how to get an urn faster, but how to build a base faster.

I disagree "building quest" is very weak limitation factor. Unsummon Necropolis just after it done, then build Graveyard and only then 3 blocking Ziggurats. Crypt later with 280 money. It's ~4:40 not a 5:42.

P.Ommes

2011-10-21 04:26:16 am

haha, thats pretty sick! awesome job! can't wait to see liderharen's result on YouTube Tongue

Liderharen

Edit history:

Liderharen: 2011-10-21 05:26:16 am

2011-10-21 05:24:23 am

That certainly is crazy (wouldn't expect anything less from Artur1). But my first instinct is 'hmm'... Smiley

First of all I have the old problem of low health ghouls in the beginning (I dunno how you killed the first paladin in your run, but i assume it was slower than what im doing now). That means I either have to change my beginning, or eat some corpses like im doing now (either way takes considerable amount of time). I cant just run through everything with low ghouls.

Secondly, killing the teal paladin with the wagons seems to take forever. I have the feeling that if i get the Uther killing optimized im going to be left with nothing to do with Arthas and his ghouls for quite some time.

If i combine these two things, it would seem to me that killing the teal paladin with arthas and the ghouls right after they have eaten some corpses might be faster. Basically if timed correctly it should take no time at all. (Plus it gives me an item).

However your video made me aware of a very important thing. Killing the blue paladin last seems like its definitely the way to go. I wont have to bother with the footmen at all, nor will I have to spend time carving my way through the trees in the bottom. (unless it turns out to be faster enough all ready. I suspect you might be able to run some wagons down there while the ghouls are eating)

But its probably safe to say this level needs a lot more experimentation Tongue

That certainly is crazy (wouldn't expect anything less from Artur1). But my first instinct is 'hmm'... :)

First of all I have the old problem of low health ghouls in the beginning (I dunno how you killed the first paladin in your run, but i assume it was slower than what im doing now). That means I either have to change my beginning, or eat some corpses like im doing now (either way takes considerable amount of time). I cant just run through everything with low ghouls.

Secondly, killing the teal paladin with the wagons seems to take forever. I have the feeling that if i get the Uther killing optimized im going to be left with nothing to do with Arthas and his ghouls for quite some time.

If i combine these two things, it would seem to me that killing the teal paladin with arthas and the ghouls right after they have eaten some corpses might be faster. Basically if timed correctly it should take no time at all. (Plus it gives me an item).

However your video made me aware of a very important thing. Killing the blue paladin last seems like its definitely the way to go. I wont have to bother with the footmen at all, nor will I have to spend time carving my way through the trees in the bottom. (unless it turns out to be faster enough all ready. I suspect you might be able to run some wagons down there while the ghouls are eating)

But its probably safe to say this level needs a lot more experimentation :P

MrKrautsaftnudel

2011-10-21 11:52:08 am

I really would like to see how you killed the first paladin Artur !

Artur1

Edit history:

Artur1: 2011-10-21 02:14:04 pm

2011-10-21 12:52:13 pm

http://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/warcraft_3_tft__roc_358.html#warcraft_3_tft__roc_358
faster:

MrKrautsaftnudel

2011-10-21 01:06:22 pm

Seems pretty flawless for me. Not sure though if it's faster then Liderharens way. Those healthy ghouls are sweet for sure Tongue

Onin

2011-10-21 01:43:36 pm

That's approximately the same as what Liderharen does, except the meatwagons tank a lot more. Seems to be pretty important to make sure that happens.

Artur1

Edit history:

Artur1: 2011-10-23 11:25:27 am

Artur1: 2011-10-23 11:21:21 am

2011-10-23 11:16:41 am

Quote from Liderharen:

If i combine these two things, it would seem to me that killing the teal paladin with arthas and the ghouls right after they have eaten some corpses might be faster. Basically if timed correctly it should take no time at all. (Plus it gives me an item).

If you can kill 3 paladins in 3:05 (best building time), there is no need use meatwagons to kill teal pal. If not, i found a new way to kill teal pal without wasting time.

Liderharen

2011-10-24 05:39:47 am

I dont know yet how fast the paladins can be killed in total. Hopefully tomorrows streaming session will make that more clear. btw i might be slightly delayed tomorrow, but i still expect it to go up around 8 pm. Just dont panic if takes a few extra minutes before im online XD

The plan for tomorrow will be the following:

- First get settled on a quick way to kill Uther
- Second figure out how to make it to Uther after killing the teal paladin
- Third experiment with how to kill the very first paladin the fastest

The last thing might change how the rest of the run is played out. The main difference between how I and Artur1 kill the first paladin is that he doesn't use his wagons to shoot at the paladin, but instead targets buildings. That makes them a higher target priority, but my guess is that it takes more time to kill the paladin that way. The upside is that all the ghouls will be a lot better off after the fight. If I do it the Artur1's way then it opens up a few more possibilites, since i wont have to spent time eating corpses before i can do anything. The question is if the tradeoff in time is worth the more healthy ghouls.

Therefore: What does you game timer says after you have killed the very first paladin Artur1? The save game I have right after killing the first paladin says 0:57.

I dont know yet how fast the paladins can be killed in total. Hopefully tomorrows streaming session will make that more clear. btw i might be slightly delayed tomorrow, but i still expect it to go up around 8 pm. Just dont panic if takes a few extra minutes before im online XD

The plan for tomorrow will be the following:

- First get settled on a quick way to kill Uther
- Second figure out how to make it to Uther after killing the teal paladin
- Third experiment with how to kill the very first paladin the fastest

The last thing might change how the rest of the run is played out. The main difference between how I and Artur1 kill the first paladin is that he doesn't use his wagons to shoot at the paladin, but instead targets buildings. That makes them a higher target priority, but my guess is that it takes more time to kill the paladin that way. The upside is that all the ghouls will be a lot better off after the fight. If I do it the Artur1's way then it opens up a few more possibilites, since i wont have to spent time eating corpses before i can do anything. The question is if the tradeoff in time is worth the more healthy ghouls.

Therefore: What does you game timer says after you have killed the very first paladin Artur1? The save game I have right after killing the first paladin says 0:57.

Artur1

2011-10-25 03:11:21 am

Quote from Liderharen:

What does you game timer says after you have killed the very first paladin Artur1?

0:59

teal pal:

You must know one thing, if you use slow speed, timer also slows.
So...

+100 gold, if you have time:

Attachment:

gold.JPG

Liderharen

2011-10-25 05:38:34 am

Something has come up and thus it is possible that it will be considerably later than 8 pm before I can start streaming. It might be as late as 9 pm CET before I have time. I will attempt to hurry up as much as possible. Cu tonight!