Updater Appreciation Thread

2014-12-01 06:15:37 pm

I've always thought this, but I think it would make sense for the updates to follow a clearer, easy to read format. Right now they read like paragraphs of in-jokes and there's no summary. The posts are also really long and introductions feel forced. If I wasn't familiar with updates I'm not sure I'd even know it was a list of new runs or that all of them were unique games at first glance. If you give people a wall of text it's likely they'll stop paying attention halfway through it.

This is the frontpage of SDA. Keep in mind that (I assume) people in the community rarely visit the front page, so you're getting a lot of people unfamiliar with speedrunning, with the community or the games. A lot of people probably don't think to enter the forum, especially if they're only marathon viewers. There's a ton of suggestions I could make for the frontpage -- put a mission statement of some sort (this isn't a WR site); make big links to the game list and forums; put a big banner for the games done quick site; link a few very important marathon threads (submissions? registration? you could visit the SDA homepage daily and never know these things happened); only show a few updates by default and fill the page with something else -- but I'm sure this is in the works later on.

Putting a condensed list of:
Game (Category) - Time - Runner
would look nice. Maybe use larger fonts/headers for them if you split them into paragraphs without listing them all in one block.

Runners want to provide their own comment? Let them put a submission note (small, separate from the run page) like a TSSB submission and stick that on the updates.

I've always thought this, but I think it would make sense for the updates to follow a clearer, easy to read format. Right now they read like paragraphs of in-jokes and there's no summary. The posts are also really long and introductions feel forced. If I wasn't familiar with updates I'm not sure I'd even know it was a list of new runs or that all of them were unique games at first glance. If you give people a wall of text it's likely they'll stop paying attention halfway through it.

This is the frontpage of SDA. Keep in mind that (I assume) people in the community rarely visit the front page, so you're getting a lot of people unfamiliar with speedrunning, with the community or the games. A lot of people probably don't think to enter the forum, especially if they're only marathon viewers. There's a ton of suggestions I could make for the frontpage -- put a mission statement of some sort (this isn't a WR site); make big links to the game list and forums; put a big banner for the games done quick site; link a few very important marathon threads (submissions? registration? you could visit the SDA homepage daily and never know these things happened); only show a few updates by default and fill the page with something else -- but I'm sure this is in the works later on.

Putting a condensed list of:
Game (Category) - Time - Runner
would look nice. Maybe use larger fonts/headers for them if you split them into paragraphs without listing them all in one block.

Runners want to provide their own comment? Let them put a submission note (small, separate from the run page) like a TSSB submission and stick that on the updates.

HavocProdigy

2014-12-01 06:35:53 pm

Quote from Carcinogen:

Outside of the fact that the site is so slow, the attitude that some of these updaters have toward the games/runs is terrible, and I can see why none of the runners who speedrun professionally want to submit runs to SDA anymore.

Very much this. I could have quoted Carcinogen's post in its entirety because I thought it was completely spot-on. I feel like the front-page updates have become more about the updaters trying to outdo themselves than giving actual credit to the runners. I don't really care about witty banter. I just want to see the games that have been posted and their respective times. Yggdrizzle's post is spot-on as well about the front page.

I do have one gripe that will probably be super unpopular but I believe the mantra of "SDA isn't a WR site" needs to chill a bit. I've heard this phrase uttered non-stop here for quite some time. I believe that the majority of people who like to watch speedruns want to see the best run available and if it's not on SDA, they will go to Youtube, Twitch, the speedrun.com leaderboards, etc. Sorry to say, but I don't think that the majority of people outside of SDA care all that much about the absolute prettiest video quality. They want to see the best runs, regardless of where they are posted. I'm fully aware that SDA isn't a leaderboard site and that records or whatever cannot be posted without the runner's participation in doing so, but I believe that this mentality of taking pride in the fact that a lot of the runs aren't anywhere close to a record is why SDA is being left in the dust and that alternatives to posting runs here are becoming far more popular.

[quote="Carcinogen"]

Outside of the fact that the site is so slow, the attitude that some of these updaters have toward the games/runs is terrible, and I can see why none of the runners who speedrun professionally want to submit runs to SDA anymore.[/quote]

Very much this.  I could have quoted Carcinogen's post in its entirety because I thought it was completely spot-on.  I feel like the front-page updates have become more about the updaters trying to outdo themselves than giving actual credit to the runners.  I don't really care about witty banter.  I just want to see the games that have been posted and their respective times.  Yggdrizzle's post is spot-on as well about the front page.

I do have one gripe that will probably be super unpopular but I believe the mantra of "SDA isn't a WR site" needs to chill a bit.  I've heard this phrase uttered non-stop here for quite some time.  I believe that the majority of people who like to watch speedruns want to see the best run available and if it's not on SDA, they will go to Youtube, Twitch, the speedrun.com leaderboards, etc.  Sorry to say, but I don't think that the majority of people outside of SDA care all that much about the absolute prettiest video quality.  They want to see the best runs, regardless of where they are posted.  I'm fully aware that SDA isn't a leaderboard site and that records or whatever cannot be posted without the runner's participation in doing so, but I believe that this mentality of taking pride in the fact that a lot of the runs aren't anywhere close to a record is why SDA is being left in the dust and that alternatives to posting runs here are becoming far more popular.

ymh

2014-12-01 07:12:24 pm

Yeah, gotta say I'm also d'accord with Carcinogen and yggdrizzle on this.

Radix

2014-12-01 08:59:16 pm

I'm addicted to games

So... would everyone really prefer the bland style updates like I did on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 ?

Radix

2014-12-01 09:02:17 pm

I'm addicted to games

Quote from yggdrizzle:

There's a ton of suggestions I could make for the frontpage -- put a mission statement of some sort (this isn't a WR site); make big links to the game list and forums; put a big banner for the games done quick site; link a few very important marathon threads (submissions? registration? you could visit the SDA homepage daily and never know these things happened); only show a few updates by default and fill the page with something else -- but I'm sure this is in the works later on.

No, actually, there used to be a separate front page like you describe. It was nixed a few years ago and just replaced with the news page you see today. I didn't really agree with the decision...

presjpolk

2014-12-01 09:03:39 pm

HELLO!

I personally don't mind the people doing the updates having a little fun with it. I get the criticisms, Carcinogen's in particular that some runners might feel slighted, but I refresh the front page for one reason: to see if my run is up yet.

Front page updates come and go but the publication is there long-term. If posters having some fun with it is the price we pay for *getting* publications then I can live with it.

But it does sound like just-the-facts updates would be more welcomed.

Radix

2014-12-01 09:04:19 pm

I'm addicted to games

Quote from HavocProdigy:

the majority of people outside of SDA care all that much about the absolute prettiest video quality.

It's sad that this is still the norm. When I posted those first Metroid Prime videos 10+ years ago, it was much better video quality than anything else out there at the time. I didn't understand how anybody could stand those horrible web cam videos when direct captures was possible. Now if you go back and look at those 10 year old videos, the capture quality and compression were awful. We're doing even better now. But yet people still prefer awful videos? I guess you can't please everyone, but this site will always aspire to have the best quality videos.

HavocProdigy

2014-12-01 09:05:59 pm

Quote from Radix:

So... would everyone really prefer the bland style updates like I did on Wednesday, April 23, 2014 ?

Personally, yes. I'm not trying to pile on or crucify any of the updaters, but over the past however many months, it has clearly become a bloated "look how clever my update is". I'm not pointing fingers, as I'm much more interested in solutions than appointing blame. I think simply listing the games and the times is sufficient and looks a lot better. If each run needs a short comment to go with it, I don't see any issue with doing so.

presjpolk

2014-12-01 09:06:13 pm

HELLO!

Quote from Zecks:

from a cynic's view sda community is a laughable cesspool of legit shitheads, furries and zero peer review

it baffles me that GDQ insists to promote it, move on from your crusted old circlejerk goddamn

It's funny how the SDA haters take the time to come here to insist SDA is so bad and so unimportant.

It's like Reggie Jackson said. They don't boo nobodies.

HavocProdigy

2014-12-01 09:12:09 pm

Quote from Radix:

But yet people still prefer awful videos? I guess you can't please everyone, but this site will always aspire to have the best quality videos.

I think it's a bit narrow-minded to assume that a run which hasn't gone through encoding is awful and unwatchable. SDA is free to do as it pleases but aspiring to have the best quality videos doesn't really seem like the most productive focus as far as a site dedicated to speedrunning goes. To each their own.

Last thing that I will say on the matter (hopefully?): How many times have one of you been streaming or been at another person's stream and someone in the chat asked "What's WR?". Countless times, I'm sure. How many times have you seen in chat "What's the prettiest-looking video of this run?".

Best wishes.

nate

2014-12-01 10:20:02 pm

can i interpret the desire for sda to be something else as straight up desire for something else?

like for us to run a wr site?

if so, yeah. i'm totally with you. i think a lot of us are actually.

it's a hard thing though. i think the most experienced people fear it the most and that makes it even harder. it seems like a system that tracks wr videos on other sites is more realistic. some people were looking into doing that a while back. i haven't been keeping up with it but maybe you could look them up.

Onin

2014-12-02 07:41:38 am

I don't think there's any harm in making a slight stylistic change in the updates; rather than adding all of the info about the run into a wittily written paragraph, just have the wittily written paragraphs be about the games, and conclude the update with a list of the details. For instance, run times on new games are probably not very meaningful for most readers without any context and without knowing whether it's WR or anything.

It'd also help with the people who really just want to know what the runs are and don't like the bother of glossing the wall of text.

kirbymastah

2014-12-02 07:47:37 am

<(^_^)>

In terms of "best video quality" people have always been (and still are) exaggerating the "requirements" for video quality. It is NOT that hard to just have a local recording of the game footage itself, and that's pretty much all you need, assuming you have disk space (which is, admittedly, a legit problem for many runners). Verification itself is now much faster, I've verified runs that finished verification in 1-2 days (it's typically around a week, which is fine IMO). The problem is that SDA takes forever to upload those verified runs, usually taking months or even a year. If this doesn't pick up anytime soon, people aren't going to have reason to submit since their "WR"s are almost guaranteed to be beaten long before the time SDA finally uploads that run publicly.

Carcinogen

2014-12-02 09:02:48 am

It's not even about "best video quality" or "WR site" either. It's exposure. It's the next logical step that ANYONE who spends this much time on a hobby will take. This and SRL are the two largest speedrun communities on the internet. People submit here because they are trying to make an excellent-quality speedrun video that other people can see. The fact that the runs get slapped on the front page generates some form of exposure that you're not going to get from idly streaming on Twitch or uploading to a YouTube page with 40 subscribers when there's a sea of other videos of the game a person can watch.

It sounds incredibly cheesy, but I love SDA too much to give up on it. I've never given up on the idea that it can still be a great website that people will still go to watch speedruns. I got the chance to show people the effort I put into something I really like doing. SDA put me on the map, and I think other talented runners who don't get much exposure deserve to have that chance too. If I just continued submitting my videos to YouTube and never sent a run into SDA, I would have quit a long time ago because my work wouldn't have been appreciated by anyone.

I'm sure this is what a large chunk of people who send their runs into SDA are thinking. There is no shame in it.

It's not even about "best video quality" or "WR site" either. It's exposure. It's the next logical step that ANYONE who spends this much time on a hobby will take. This and SRL are the two largest speedrun communities on the internet. People submit here because they are trying to make an excellent-quality speedrun video that other people can see. The fact that the runs get slapped on the front page generates some form of exposure that you're not going to get from idly streaming on Twitch or uploading to a YouTube page with 40 subscribers when there's a sea of other videos of the game a person can watch.

It sounds incredibly cheesy, but I love SDA too much to give up on it. I've never given up on the idea that it can still be a great website that people will still go to watch speedruns. I got the chance to show people the effort I put into something I really like doing. SDA put me on the map, and I think other talented runners who don't get much exposure deserve to have that chance too. If I just continued submitting my videos to YouTube and never sent a run into SDA, I would have quit a long time ago because my work wouldn't have been appreciated by anyone.

I'm sure this is what a large chunk of people who send their runs into SDA are thinking. There is no shame in it.

Zecks

2014-12-02 09:12:45 am

sukusuku hakutaku

i kinda blew up on a weird brain vomit but more seriously

1. the SDA site has very little point of serving the purpose of a "video archive" anymore and indeed seems to just be holding the same old part of the community together (which admittedly is what GDQ staff mainly seems to consist of)

2. recently both the events and moreso the more "important" parts of the forums seem to have let some more or less questionable individuals roam without restriction, to the point of being much too nice with them

i really only care for GDQ though and i'm probably thinking too much about these issues and their impact idk

Zecks

2014-12-02 09:13:09 am

sukusuku hakutaku

also imgur is what made u popular carc everyone knows this

Radix

2014-12-02 10:11:20 am

I'm addicted to games

Quote from Carcinogen:

It sounds incredibly cheesy, but I love SDA too much to give up on it.

Even cheesier, but "me too".

I just don't know how to solve it. I have a full time job, necessary for me to make money and have a house. With the time I have left, I want to play games or watch speed runs. Spending a few hours a day on SDA backend or writing updates is not my idea of fun anymore.

Unfortunately I'm sure that's true for most everyone. Who would really want to spend hours on these things for no money? I've seriously thought of offering a paid position, maybe that would get some work done, but the best I could offer is $10-15k a year, it would be coming out of my own pocket.

puwexil

Edit history:

puwexil: 2014-12-02 10:26:27 am

2014-12-02 10:21:38 am

Professional Second Banana

My quick $0.02: the fact that SDA provides a free hosting service for speedrun videos that's independent of companies like Google/Twitch (whose policies and decisions are based around making a profit) is something that shouldn't be overlooked. I also really like that we give exposure via the front page and games list to runs of less well-known games that would otherwise just get buried in cyberspace.

presjpolk

2014-12-02 10:24:10 am

HELLO!

Full resolution, full framerate, no recompression to oblivion.

The quality matters. I know 'lol everyone does strimming' but being able to pull a high quality video for study can help quite a lot in learning a game.

Worn_Traveler

Edit history:

Worn_Traveler: 2014-12-02 10:34:02 am

2014-12-02 10:33:44 am

Formerly known as Skullboy

As a long time watcher and enjoyer of speed runs, there are two things that always keep me coming back to SDA every day: the permanence of the video archive (including obsoleted runs) and the great community fostered here on the forums. Maybe it's the researcher in me, but having access to older and non "WR" runs makes the whole speedrun process far more interesting than just discarding runs that aren't the fastest time anymore. I don't competitively run games for the most part. I prefer playing casually and watching runs. SDA is comprised of a great community and is an archive, a museum that is always worth looking around, even if there is newer art on Twitch and Youtube.

Carcinogen

2014-12-02 11:13:46 am

Quote from presjpolk:

The quality matters. I know 'lol everyone does strimming' but being able to pull a high quality video for study can help quite a lot in learning a game.

I agree with this, and I love having that resource available, but there needs to be some incentive to contribute, otherwise THERE IS NO CONTENT. You have to look at the big picture.

Twitch-partnered runners who are able to give the site content and exposure are just as important to keeping this site alive as this is as a hub for new runners.

Their content is the initial hook to keeping users watching the site. Not runs of obscure games. You know what brought me to SDA first? Super Mario 64 and Resident Evil. You know what games I didn't care about for speedruns until I went to SDA and knew they existed? Final Fantasy, Doom, Castlevania, Zelda, Contra, Mega Man, MGS.

Quote from puwexil:

My quick $0.02: the fact that SDA provides a free hosting service for speedrun videos that's independent of companies like Google/Twitch (whose policies and decisions are based around making a profit) is something that shouldn't be overlooked. I also really like that we give exposure via the front page and games list to runs of less well-known games that would otherwise just get buried in cyberspace.

More runs of Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, and Mega Man. Even games like Isaac and Minecraft inevitably drives the odd viewer who wants to see these more obscure games over to the respective pages.

http://www.speedrunslive.com/races/#!/gamelist/popular

These are the popular games for both running AND watching, and there is a problem when there is NO WAY to get a WR for one of these runs on the front page until 6 months later. That drives the incentive away for the top speedrun streamers to submit any content.

As a consequence, if you don't have a Cosmo, Sig, Trihex, Caleb, AdamAK, or ANYONE putting content on this site, it hurts the site overall. I remember a rather large skype call happening on a stream (speedrunning roundtable?) where most of the discussion wound up being about SDA, but nothing got solved because nobody is taking any action.

I hate to agree with the random calling SDA a "circlejerk", but I can kind-of see where he's coming from. Without the content and without AGDQ driving even the slightest inkling of exposure to SDA, it's becoming landlocked.

Quote from Radix:

I just don't know how to solve it. I have a full time job, necessary for me to make money and have a house. With the time I have left, I want to play games or watch speed runs. Spending a few hours a day on SDA backend or writing updates is not my idea of fun anymore.

Unfortunately I'm sure that's true for most everyone. Who would really want to spend hours on these things for no money? I've seriously thought of offering a paid position, maybe that would get some work done, but the best I could offer is $10-15k a year, it would be coming out of my own pocket.

I have an even better idea. How would you feel about forming an LLC and holding a donation marathon to raise money for developers to come in and overhaul the site? It's not charity, but people donate to have "our bois" flown out to marathons and stuff, so I don't see why the same couldn't work for improving SDA. It's VERY apparent that nobody's willing to do that work for free.

[quote="presjpolk"]The quality matters. I know 'lol everyone does strimming' but being able to pull a high quality video for study can help quite a lot in learning a game.[/quote]
I agree with this, and I love having that resource available, but there needs to be some incentive to contribute, otherwise THERE IS NO CONTENT. You have to look at the big picture.

Twitch-partnered runners who are able to give the site content and exposure are just as important to keeping this site alive as this is as a hub for new runners.

Their content is the initial hook to keeping users watching the site. Not runs of obscure games.  You know what brought me to SDA first? Super Mario 64 and Resident Evil. You know what games I didn't care about for speedruns until I went to SDA and knew they existed? Final Fantasy, Doom, Castlevania, Zelda, Contra, Mega Man, MGS.

[quote="puwexil"]My quick $0.02: the fact that SDA provides a free hosting service for speedrun videos that's independent of companies like Google/Twitch (whose policies and decisions are based around making a profit) is something that shouldn't be overlooked.  I also really like that we give exposure via the front page and games list to runs of less well-known games that would otherwise just get buried in cyberspace.[/quote]

More runs of Mario, Zelda, Pokemon, and Mega Man. Even games like Isaac and Minecraft inevitably drives the odd viewer who wants to see these more obscure games over to the respective pages.

http://www.speedrunslive.com/races/#!/gamelist/popular

These are the popular games for both running AND watching, and there is a problem when there is NO WAY to get a WR for one of these runs on the front page until 6 months later. That drives the incentive away for the top speedrun streamers to submit any content.

As a consequence, if you don't have a Cosmo, Sig, Trihex, Caleb, AdamAK, or ANYONE putting content on this site, it hurts the site overall. I remember a rather large skype call happening on a stream (speedrunning roundtable?) where most of the discussion wound up being about SDA, but nothing got solved because nobody is taking any action.

I hate to agree with the random calling SDA a "circlejerk", but I can kind-of see where he's coming from. Without the content and without AGDQ driving even the slightest inkling of exposure to SDA, it's becoming landlocked.

[quote="Radix"]I just don't know how to solve it. I have a full time job, necessary for me to make money and have a house. With the time I have left, I want to play games or watch speed runs. Spending a few hours a day on SDA backend or writing updates is not my idea of fun anymore.

Unfortunately I'm sure that's true for most everyone. Who would really want to spend hours on these things for no money? I've seriously thought of offering a paid position, maybe that would get some work done, but the best I could offer is $10-15k a year, it would be coming out of my own pocket.[/quote] I have an even better idea. How would you feel about forming an LLC and holding a donation marathon to raise money for developers to come in and overhaul the site? It's not charity, but people donate to have "our bois" flown out to marathons and stuff, so I don't see why the same couldn't work for improving SDA. It's VERY apparent that nobody's willing to do that work for free.

presjpolk

2014-12-02 11:26:12 am

HELLO!

Not an LLC. A 501c3 would be appropriate here. Educational.

Radix

2014-12-02 03:07:21 pm

I'm addicted to games

I looked into non-profits a while ago, they're not very easy. You have to fit into a limit set of activities to be approved. You need an official board of 3 members who can't be paid. You need to file annual reports with the IRS etc. I imagine an LLC is far easier, that's what the GDQ boys have done.

But this is getting a little off topic, I have an update to work on...

Alko

2014-12-02 03:33:44 pm

Caution: This user contains Kana ^_^

Yeah, I remember talks about SDA 2.0 from a long time ago which would maybe solve this. At the rate it's going, my site and SDA are going to race each other to having their 2.0's online. It's all a thing about who's going to do it, and when do they have time? My site has even less updates than SDA does, btway … (it's entirely non-speedrunning and in German, before anyone asks.)

Blechy

2014-12-02 06:44:13 pm

Even if you want to allow for creative writing and not go with a straightup vanilla list format, at the very least precede each full paragraph with a line of Game - Category - Time - Runner. Right now I want to be able to eyeball through an update and find if there's anything that appeals to me, but the text isn't organized in such a way that allows for that, so I just don't bother. Call it lazy if you want, but not being able to find what you want via a quick visual skim will quickly lose people's attention.

And I also understand (and even respect) the notion that the writing style has been the same since the start. So if keeping to tradition is the priority then by all means, but the criticism on just how effective it is will remain.