Twilight Princess (GCN)

13013

(user is banned)

2010-08-14 08:57:46 am

Yes Mario Riding A Pole

So in all everything is f'ed and there will not be a 100% run in a while? Correct?

Flip

2010-08-14 09:03:28 am

1-Up!

Seems that way. The Zelda speedrunning community seems to love to hate TP. Plus TP 100% is a HUGE undertaking to plan out with all the poes and whatnot.

It'd be cool to see a run but I'm not expecting one any time soon.

SD2

2010-08-14 10:47:40 am

dem tokay

As Flip said, TP is kind of a running joke in the Zelda community. As far as I know, nobody there plays it, and anyone that tries to complains in the IRC after about an hour and then gets an Ocarina of Time race started.

ComboKing

2010-08-15 07:58:16 am

Best Ike In My City!

I'm practicing for 100% I'm using Chimpas' route. The run won't be out for awhile though I am afraid. It's only a running joke because people are lazy and there is more luck involved in TP.

KingOfHeart

2010-08-16 09:12:48 pm

I'm not interested in the 100% runs. I just want to see an improved speedrun. Stop trying to be perfect, just beat the old record. It should be easier with all these new shortcuts.

Flip

2010-08-16 09:14:44 pm

1-Up!

The problem with your philosophy of "just beat the existing run" is that Zelda runs are verified by Zelda runners and Zelda runners are not very lenient with mistakes. We've seen improvements rejected in the past.

I don't necessarily agree with that but that's the way it is.

SD2

2010-08-16 11:17:21 pm

dem tokay

A run that simply beats the existing run should be rejected anyway. If you can get a time and you get 10 minutes above it, there's a problem.

And again, nobody plays TP. So there's no one in the Zelda speedrunning community that would be forth enough effort to even get a new run for this.

I know Chimpas is working on a Wii segmented run, so just sit tight for that. If you want an improvement that bad, you can do the run yourself or put a bounty on it. We aren't here to give you what you want.

caveberry

2010-08-17 01:56:21 am

I doubt that's what KoH was saying. His post didn't sound all that demanding.

I love SDA and how they consistently strive for perfection, but there reaches a point where you begin stagnating interest by limiting content. IMO, an improvement is an improvement, and putting up a run that can beaten will only make other runners strive for that better time. I would rather see a close race with 1 or 2 runs posted a year, than a perfect run every 4. It's just a way to create more interest by breeding friendly competition. Unless workload is an issue, I don't think it would hurt SDA's reputation to put up FASTER runs of any given game.

Paraxade

2010-08-17 03:34:53 am

It's up to whoever's running the game. I personally would not want to rush out a half-assed run, I'd prefer to take my time and get it right the first time. Also keep in mind that SDA has high standards on play quality so those need to be met either way.

Mystery

2010-08-17 06:09:58 am

One must keep perfect and well-done runs separate. Just because it isn't perfect doesn't mean it's half-assed.
I wouldn't want to something half-assed, but I certainly wouldn't mind watching non-perfect runs.
The problem is that people set the bar too high.

No one tries to create something perfect right off that bat. It just takes so much time for little gain.
One should find a balance between the two. A very good run that isn't perfect. That would cut the work down required on the run by a huge amount. It is then later possible to try achieving closer perfection if one wishes.

Paraxade

Edit history:

Paraxade: 2010-08-17 09:12:46 am

Paraxade: 2010-08-17 09:12:31 am

2010-08-17 09:12:10 am

"Just beat the old record with the new shortcuts, it won't be hard" sounds like he just wants someone to pump out a run in a week. But eh, thats just how it sounded to me. :/ Was just throwing in my two cents.

Mystery

2010-08-17 10:04:36 am

Yeah, two weeks would probably not be enough time.
But change that to "Just beat the old record with the new shortcuts while keeping it optimized, it won't be hard" and it will all be fine Smiley

Just don't over-optimize it. It doesn't need to be perfect, especially with the luck. Just good enough that it doesn't look bad.

Paraxade

2010-08-17 10:43:13 am

Still doesn't sound fine to me. You guys are (more directed at KingOfHeart but meh) basically encouraging people to do suboptimal runs for the sole purpose of giving you new runs to watch and asking for more runs to be finished faster, which is imo a bit disrespectful to runners who put in a lot of their time and effort into making optimised runs, completely for free. People run to meet their standards, not yours.

When you get down to it, this is pointless because, for one thing, the reason there's no run is the fact that no one wants to run it. It has nothing to do with how difficult it is to optimise the game, people have optimised difficult games before. Secondly, if someone DOES decide to run it, then the level of optimisation they put into it is their decision, it's not up for public debate.

SD2

2010-08-17 10:45:51 am

dem tokay

I was typing a post when Paraxade posted what he did. It completely echoes my thoughts. Don't post asking for a run. People aren't going to do a run because you ask them to. They're going to do it because THEY want to.

And yes, I'm aware I sound like a gigantic prick right now. If you look at the comments on my youtube channel you'll understand just why I hate when people ask for runs so much.

Mystery

2010-08-17 11:14:47 am

My point is that you don't need perfect runs. It's as much as for the runner's sake as the viewers/fans sake.
Perfect runs take time. A lot of time. And a lot of patience and motivation.
So by trying to make everything perfect, the runners get discouraged because of the required motivation and patience required. Furthermore, actually completing a runs gives a warm feeling that you've actually achieved something. If people then reply that it's awesome, you feel even better.
I am encouraging runners (not telling them) to reduce the level of perfectness. We aren't perfect and we never will be. We need to live with that.

In the end, it's the runners who will choose for themselves. But also try to see it from the viewers point of view: not all of them care about the run being perfect. So don't limit yourself to a perfect run because that's what the viewers want (if they do). It's YOUR run. Decide for yourself what is the right level, but try to restrain yourself a little, too. Every new run that comes out is a joy for the viewers. Find a balance.

My point is that you don't need perfect runs. It's as much as for the runner's sake as the viewers/fans sake.
Perfect runs take time. A lot of time. And a lot of patience and motivation.
So by trying to make everything perfect, the runners get discouraged because of the required motivation and patience required. Furthermore, actually completing a runs gives a warm feeling that you've actually achieved something. If people then reply that it's awesome, you feel even better.
I am encouraging runners (not telling them) to reduce the level of perfectness. We aren't perfect and we never will be. We need to live with that.

In the end, it's the runners who will choose for themselves. But also try to see it from the viewers point of view: not all of them care about the run being perfect. So don't limit yourself to a perfect run because that's what the viewers want (if they do). It's YOUR run. Decide for yourself what is the right level, but try to restrain yourself a little, too. Every new run that comes out is a joy for the viewers. Find a balance.

Miles

2010-08-17 11:18:13 am

Quote from Mystery:

I am encouraging runners (not telling them) to reduce the level of perfectness.

No thanks.

Paraxade

2010-08-17 11:24:25 am

^

It's up to the runner. They don't necessarily care what the viewer wants. Running a game is their own project, they should optimise it to a level that makes them personally happy with the run; the viewer absolutely does not get a say in how they do the run. I don't think I'll make any more posts on this subject, not much else to say that I haven't said already.

Bottom line: It's not about the viewer.

Mystery

2010-08-17 11:31:10 am

Quote from Miles:

Quote from Mystery:

I am encouraging runners (not telling them) to reduce the level of perfectness.

No thanks.

Well, if you've decided to shoot for perfectness, then it's your decision and that's fine.
You will always have my respect for such great runs regardless of what you do.

Quote from Paraxade:

^

It's up to the runner. They don't necessarily care what the viewer wants. Running a game is their own project, they should optimise it to a level that makes them personally happy with the run; the viewer absolutely does not get a say in how they do the run. I don't think I'll make any more posts on this subject, not much else to say that I haven't said already.

Bottom line: It's not about the viewer.

Aye, that's how it should be.
But sometimes someone can go too far in strive of something. And many fail to reach that something.
Anyway, I've made my point. I just find it a shame that everyone is so obsessed with perfect.
I'd rather see 99% perfectness instead of 100% perfectness. But again, just my opinion. It's up to the runners to decide. I, nor anyone else, will think any less of them for their decisions.

[quote="Miles"][quote="Mystery"]I am encouraging runners (not telling them) to reduce the level of perfectness.[/quote]
No thanks.[/quote]
Well, if you've decided to shoot for perfectness, then it's your decision and that's fine.
You will always have my respect for such great runs regardless of what you do.

[quote="Paraxade"]^

It's up to the runner. They don't necessarily care what the viewer wants. Running a game is their own project, they should optimise it to a level that makes them personally happy with the run; the viewer absolutely does not get a say in how they do the run. I don't think I'll make any more posts on this subject, not much else to say that I haven't said already.

Bottom line: It's not about the viewer.[/quote]
Aye, that's how it should be.
But sometimes someone can go too far in strive of something. And many fail to reach that something.
Anyway, I've made my point. I just find it a shame that everyone is so obsessed with perfect.
I'd rather see 99% perfectness instead of 100% perfectness. But again, just my opinion. It's up to the runners to decide. I, nor anyone else, will think any less of them for their decisions.

CriminallyVulgar

Edit history:

CriminallyVulgar: 2010-08-17 12:32:44 pm

2010-08-17 12:32:11 pm

It really depends what we all want from the next run. Some of us really want to see the old one broken down, just to see the new glitches in action and, honestly, for something to watch that they know they'll enjoy, even if it's not perfect. That's the viewer angle.

On the other hand, there are the runners, who have high personal standards (especially as it's a Zelda game, even if it is TP), and refuse to release something that isn't up to those standards. Their standards are considerably higher than those of the viewers, and rightly so, really. It's their run.

There is the other angle though: the current run is good. Not perfect, but certainly not bad. It just feels kind of complete, and it has a nice round time on it at just sub-4 hours. This, coupled with the lack of enthusiasm in the community for the game means that a lot of runners just lose the will to finish. Again, this is fine.

But just look at the OoT debacle on TASVideos. They argued over whether the japanese run should be published, pretty much every zelda runner around and half of the site got involved arguing about whether it should be published. They published it, and 5 months later, Bloobiebla has just finished his improvement. 5 months. To say that the publishing of an imperfect (admittedly, a very goddamn imperfect) run wasn't a factor in this is absurd.

Let me make one thing clear: I don't think someone should just churn out a sup-par run to boost enthusiasm. I personally disagreed with the publishing of the Japanese run on TAS, despite its result. It wouldn't really work with this anyway, there hasn't been enough time waiting for a new run, for starters. I'm just trying to say that, while it is entirely the individual runner's responsibility, their actions don't only affect them, they affect other runners.

I'm perfectly aware of how hypocritical this all sounds coming from someone who is utterly incapable of producing runs, I just don't want to see this game die because of silly debates about how runners should run games. It's up to the runner, so, as viewers, lets just support how they approach their runs, instead of "encouraging" them to change their ways in a way that, coincidentally, benefits viewers the most.

Sorry for the rant, guys, lot of pent up yearning.

tl;dr : stop trying to take the running from the runners.

It really depends what we all want from the next run. Some of us really want to see the old one broken down, just to see the new glitches in action and, honestly, for something to watch that they know they'll enjoy, even if it's not perfect. That's the viewer angle.

On the other hand, there are the runners, who have high personal standards (especially as it's a Zelda game, even if it is TP), and refuse to release something that isn't up to those standards. Their standards are considerably higher than those of the viewers, and rightly so, really. It's their run.

There is the other angle though: the current run is good. Not perfect, but certainly not bad. It just feels kind of complete, and it has a nice round time on it at just sub-4 hours. This, coupled with the lack of enthusiasm in the community for the game means that a lot of runners just lose the will to finish. Again, this is fine.

But just look at the OoT debacle on TASVideos. They argued over whether the japanese run should be published, pretty much every zelda runner around and half of the site got involved arguing about whether it should be published. They published it, and 5 months later, Bloobiebla has just finished his improvement. 5 months. To say that the publishing of an imperfect (admittedly, a very goddamn imperfect) run wasn't a factor in this is absurd.

Let me make one thing clear: [u]I don't think someone should just churn out a sup-par run to boost enthusiasm.[/u] I personally disagreed with the publishing of the Japanese run on TAS, despite its result. It wouldn't really work with this anyway, there hasn't been enough time waiting for a new run, for starters. I'm just trying to say that, while it is entirely the individual runner's responsibility, their actions don't only affect them, they affect other runners.

I'm perfectly aware of how hypocritical this all sounds coming from someone who is utterly incapable of producing runs, I just don't want to see this game die because of silly debates about how runners should run games. It's up to the runner, so, as viewers, lets just support how they approach their runs, instead of "encouraging" them to change their ways in a way that, coincidentally, benefits viewers the most.

Sorry for the rant, guys, lot of pent up yearning.

tl;dr : stop trying to take the running from the runners.

Kingnahum18

2010-08-17 03:24:44 pm

Get 'er Done!

Quote from KingOfHeart:

Stop trying to be perfect, just beat the old record. It should be easier with all these new shortcuts.

Yes, by using the new short cuts, you could probably save 30 minutes (?). But if the runner only gives it 70% effort, and cuts it by only 20 minutes, that would be pointless, since THEY could easily do better.

It REALLY IS up to the runner how they want to do it (for the 15th time). A new run for TAS saved only 1 frame, but they accepted it because it was that perfect. Likewise, I was just reading an SDA run [in the verification section] that got denied because the verifier knew the runner could do better.

Enough on that stuff though. If a person wants to go for a half-assed run, then let them. It will most likely face a very critical verifying expert (seeing as there are so many), who will know what is good, and what is bad. It it is not the true potential, it probably will not go through.

UchihaSasuke

2010-08-18 12:04:18 am

Stand: Devil's Call in your Heart

the "problem" as i see it is that the standards for SDA are so high that if you can't do a perfect run, you would be better not bothering at all. who wants to do a run and put all they've got into it but see it rejected because it still didn't meet the standards? i bet no one.
TP right now has no one capable of a "perfect" run interested in it. the runner who did the current run said he was sick of the game so if he comes back it will be a miracle. on another side, there could be people interested in tackling 100% but they see the standards and think "man, that's too demanding" and probably give up before starting. on a different side, you have people who can do "perfect" runs, but they instead lose interest in the game because it takes too long to get something that good done (Paraxade's run went that way)
SDA standards was the reason i decided to not do a metroid prime 2 for wii run in the end because i was sure my run wouldn't look that good and because the standards for that game are very high, despite that particular version being somewhat different and not having a run up yet. i'm sure a lot of people do like that or instead just upload their runs to youtube.

KingOfHeart

2010-08-18 05:54:58 pm

Wow I'm impressed on how hot this topic became after my one comment.

With all these new shortcuts, you still can't beat the record if you make too many mistakes.
You still have to perfect those shortcuts.
Once those are perfected, then you should be able to do a pretty decent run.

So what if you miss a roll or two. So what if you end up getting hit once or twice. The point is to try, but if it's not absolutely perfect, it's fine.
No one wants to do it because it's way too difficult for them to do.

Unless if we find a way into Hyrule Castle much earlier in the game, I doubt anyone will ever do this speedrun.
100% is really out of the question. If no one wants to do a speedrun, I don't see how anyone would have the patience to do this game.
In Six months from now, chances are there will be a Skyward Sword Speedrun discussion.

Manocheese

2010-08-18 06:12:11 pm

Yes, a cucco riding the ground.

Quote from KingOfHeart:

With all these new shortcuts, you still can't beat the record if you make too many mistakes.

If the new timesavers save half an hour, then yes, you can make a huge number of mistakes and still beat the record.

Quote from KingOfHeart:

No one wants to do it because it's way too boring for them to do.

Fixed.

mzxrules

2010-08-20 02:29:57 am

zeldaspeedruns.com

We interrupt this rather pointless discussion (since we all know no one here will ever run this game) to bring you a new development from ZeldaSpeedRuns. Apparently it's now possible to do the map glitch on all versions of the game, including those that were patched for the glitch.

Quote:

Equip Auru´s memo or an item like.
Open Map.
Choose a portal.
Hit rapidly the button with the item.
You should prevet the warp.
Discovered by Swordlink90 and it works for both versions, Tongue

there's a new map glitch after all Tongue

EDIT: it works for newer versions Shocked

Damn, this game is impossible to break now.

Kingnahum18

Edit history:

Kingnahum18: 2010-08-20 12:09:48 pm

2010-08-20 09:50:45 am

Get 'er Done!

Seriously... Wow.

I haven't heard anything new on TP in a very long time. Thank god. How much testing does it have?

BTW, I do LOOOVVVEEE that quote of yours! CD Streaming Rocks!

Also btw, CD streaming on Wii version DOES not hurt the wii? (Yes that was a Question), but does on GC?