Turok 2 hard mode speed run

2013-02-04 10:53:55 am

That's a good idea for the armory, that should definitely save a second or two if it works out ok.

[edit] just tested it, it works like a charm. However i would make sure you have tek bow equipped before you enter the level as it may be too slow to switch while you're moving in which you'll miss the shot.

For the prisoners: Irc I actually found going for the first makes the purr-lin block me when leaving the second prisoner cage. I don't know perhaps there's some speed difference coming into play here, entering the room faster on PC gives the purr-lin a slightly worse position than N64 perhaps.. ?. It seems to be fairly random what the purr-lin decides to do here anyway. I'd say either kill him with a one shot to the back as you first see him

That's a really good time saver Bismuth, mainly the one that does save significant 7 seconds. Bit annoyed i didn't spot that obvious jump to the portals down there.

Another thing I'm a bit miffed about was not testing this, the dino ride. I've found through tests that it is actually (if performed very well) possible to be as much as 10 seconds faster on foot than taking the dino ride. The only problem is you need a lot of ammo, and weapon of choice is of course the shredder. It seems normal shells work well for one hit kills on some of the turrets but some of the other turrets require one explosive shell to take down in one hit. So providing you get good ammo drops from the death marshes totem this could be a new strategy. I'm not sure how this test would fair under TAS condition as the dino ride could have probably been improved but I still think the 'on foot' strategy will emerge faster. at the cost of a lot of a few shells unfortunately, but there are some pickups in your way, but i'd recommend not getting shells off to the left and right of you next to bridges, as you'll be wasting quite a bit of time it saves going on foot.
I will note this test was done on easy mode where taking loads of damage is fine. I'm not sure how well this strat works on hard. I'm predicting some heavy damage and possibly inevitable death. So I'm rather ironically hoping this strategy is a failure on hard Grin

I just done a little ammo test for this strategy. If you relegate normal shells to turrets which go down in one shot, and explosive shells on turrets which take two normal shells, then you end up with a good ammo remaining by the end of it, which takes into account the explosive pickup before the high bridge which has no time loss picking up.
So as an example starting with 20 shells, and 10 explosive. I was able to finish up with 12 shells, and 7 explosive. The great thing about going on foot is it's actually a lot easier. There's no delay in shooting as auto aim does it all for you so gates drop down for you quickly, where's lining up shots with the dino can be a pain in the ass. I'd urge bismuth to test this strat before taking my word for it, as you might be able to make the dino ride a bit better than I did, but i still think on foot will be faster

That's a good idea for the armory, that should definitely save a second or two if it works out ok.

[edit] just tested it, it works like a charm. However i would make sure you have tek bow equipped before you enter the level as it may be too slow to switch while you're moving in which you'll miss the shot.

For the prisoners: Irc I actually found going for the first makes the purr-lin block me when leaving the second prisoner cage. I don't know perhaps there's some speed difference coming into play here, entering the room faster on PC gives the purr-lin a slightly worse position than N64 perhaps.. ?. It seems to be fairly random what the purr-lin decides to do here anyway. I'd say either kill him with a one shot to the back as you first see him

That's a really good time saver Bismuth, mainly the one that does save significant 7 seconds. Bit annoyed i didn't spot that obvious jump to the portals down there.

Another thing I'm a bit miffed about was not testing this, the dino ride. I've found through tests that it is actually (if performed very well) possible to be as much as 10 seconds faster on foot than taking the dino ride. The only problem is you need a lot of ammo, and weapon of choice is of course the shredder. It seems normal shells work well for one hit kills on some of the turrets but some of the other turrets require one explosive shell to take down in one hit. So providing you get good ammo drops from the death marshes totem this could be a new strategy. I'm not sure how this test would fair under TAS condition as the dino ride could have probably been improved but I still think the 'on foot' strategy will emerge faster. at the cost of a lot of a few shells unfortunately, but there are some pickups in your way, but i'd recommend not getting shells off to the left and right of you next to bridges, as you'll be wasting quite a bit of time it saves going on foot.
I will note this test was done on easy mode where taking loads of damage is fine. I'm not sure how well this strat works on hard. I'm predicting some heavy damage and possibly inevitable death. So I'm rather ironically hoping this strategy is a failure on hard ;D

I just done a little ammo test for this strategy. If you relegate normal shells to turrets which go down in one shot, and explosive shells on turrets which take two normal shells, then you end up with a good ammo remaining by the end of it, which takes into account the explosive pickup before the high bridge which has no time loss picking up.
So as an example starting with 20 shells, and 10 explosive. I was able to finish up with 12 shells, and 7 explosive. The great thing about going on foot is it's actually a lot easier. There's no delay in shooting as auto aim does it all for you so gates drop down for you quickly, where's lining up shots with the dino can be a pain in the ass. I'd urge bismuth to test this strat before taking my word for it, as you might be able to make the dino ride a bit better than I did, but i still think on foot will be faster

behemoth

2013-02-04 01:05:20 pm

Hard mode test - Well it does still save about the same amount of time. The Hit points of the turrets are increased meaning turrets take anywhere between 2 - 3 shots with normal shells and a maximum of 2 with explosive, a couple of them go down in a single shot with normal shell. So of course all this means a huge loss to ammo, so i what i decided to do was combine a normal shell with explosive shell for nearly all turrets to save a bit of ammo for each type of shell, but you're are still left with pretty low ammo. but all this extra shooting means longer waiting at gates for them to open. But it's kind of balanced out by the fact that if you take the dino ride you still have to shoot more as well.

But as it turns out this strategy probably saves more time on hard mode due to the fact you have to play safe in a particular area when taking the dinosaur ride. The bit where you lower the bridge and a gate ahead of you comes down and you have two small turret facing you. You pretty much have to shoot both of them on hard mode when taking the dino ride otherwise they'll destroy you, but on foot you can blow the one on the right and just run ahead.

Still I think the ammo consumption necessary for this strategy on hard mode might be too costly overall to the res to the level. I'll do some further testing...

Hard mode test - Well it does still save about the same amount of time. The Hit points of the turrets are increased meaning turrets take anywhere between 2 - 3 shots with normal shells and a maximum of 2 with explosive, a couple of them go down in a single shot with normal shell. So of course all this means a huge loss to ammo, so i what i decided to do was combine a normal shell with explosive shell for nearly all turrets to save a bit of ammo for each type of shell, but you're are still left with pretty low ammo. but all this extra shooting means longer waiting at gates for them to open. But it's kind of balanced out by the fact that if you take the dino ride you still have to shoot more as well.

But as it turns out this strategy probably saves more time on hard mode due to the fact you have to play safe in a particular area when taking the dinosaur ride. The bit where you lower the bridge and a gate ahead of you comes down and you have two small turret facing you. You pretty much have to shoot both of them on hard mode when taking the dino ride otherwise they'll destroy you, but on foot you can blow the one on the right and just run ahead.

Still I think the ammo consumption necessary for this strategy on hard mode might be too costly overall to the res to the level. I'll do some further testing...

Bismuth

2013-02-04 10:47:21 pm

Worthless categories WR master

I like the idea of going on foot but have you taken into account that I shoot the turrets from very far to save time on the dino? Basically, I can get to the first warp in about 1:50-1:51. A perfect run on the dino would be about 1:49. Here is a 1:51.x (from 26:25.x to 28:16.x) in which I am pretty much perfect. I don't know how I can fare on foot but I would probably lose time on most of the gates as they require you to shoot before you can have a direct hit on those turrets. If you could tell me how much time it takes you and/or post a video of you going on foot though, it would help a lot!

Behemoth

2013-02-05 07:01:00 am

Yeah 1:50 is about the same as i got it. But wow i tried shooting from that far back on the first high up turret but i couldnt hit it,. i wondered if it hadn't 'activated', but i guess not, the others though i was able to get from that far back Ok i'll try and get together a video of on foot. also how much faster is going right at the start compared to left, and also shooting the right blockade near the end instead of the left one? Nonetheless I'll take both these routes in the test.

giganotabehemoth87

2013-02-05 08:55:58 am

Here we go

Sorry the quality is bad i had to downgrade it. Amazingly i got this on second recording attempt, yet i had been practicing that shot over the fence for quite some time. I realized how you got the first turret up high,. Due to the wait involved for the dino rockets to decend onto the turret you using that time to make it round the corner, because im pretty sure it's not activated until you make some headway to the right a little. So for on foot you can't shoot it until you see it properly. The next high turret was mentioned before. I'm glad it worked out. But i could have been a bit faster at doing so. Then I got partially blocked by a fireborn... then my strafing direction was a little off in a few places shortly after. One thing to note about going on foot is no waiting for bridges, as you can jump onto them as they are drawn up so it kills a bit of time while you're moving forward. I think this could be improved by a 1 second or maybe 2. But the results are - from 8:46 - 10:29 = 1:43. Could potentially be a 1:42/1.

Here we go http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkiOzFBrYPo&feature=youtu.be

Sorry the quality is bad i had to downgrade it. Amazingly i got this on second recording attempt, yet i had been practicing that shot over the fence for quite some time. I realized how you got the first turret up high,. Due to the wait involved for the dino rockets to decend onto the turret you using that time to make it round the corner, because im pretty sure it's not activated until you make some headway to the right a little. So for on foot you can't shoot it until you see it properly. The next high turret was mentioned before. I'm glad it worked out. But i could have been a bit faster at doing so. Then I got partially blocked by a fireborn... then my strafing direction was a little off in a few places shortly after. One thing to note about going on foot is no waiting for bridges, as you can jump onto them as they are drawn up so it kills a bit of time while you're moving forward. I think this could be improved by a 1 second or maybe 2. But the results are - from 8:46 - 10:29 = 1:43. Could potentially be a 1:42/1.

Squeebles

2013-02-05 04:20:21 pm

Hm, 7 explosive shells will do for the soul gates but since both of your strategies rely heavily on the regular shredder shells for quick kills I can't help but wonder where that ammo will get recovered before the real fighting calls for such supplies.. Also it wouldn't hurt to know how many enemies need to be killed up to that point and if the mag 60 could fill in for some of the fighting -nod- If I remember correctly there's a shotgun pickup on top of a crate or something just after you open the gate with the horse statues on either side- You could probably pick it up at a cost of 1 or 2 seconds with the overhead trick, might not even need the trick if it's low enough...

Behemoth

2013-02-05 05:22:29 pm

There is one other 3 explosive shell pickup that should only cost a second for the on foot trek if the player was worried about having ten for perfect soul gates. It's just to the right after the shot over the fence, you walk through the opening gate and look to your right and it's about 4 in-game feet from you.

As for the regular shells - The death marshes totem should be helpful enough to give you at least a box of ten and lets not forget the numerous 3 shell pickups in the raptors cage at the end of the death marshes, so as far as my totem strategy goes, i was using pistol so my shredder was left well alone with over 10 shells. the extra ten came from a box of shells around the totem. The on-foot route shouldn't really need to use anymore than 10 shells, some of the enemies can be taken care of with mag 60 of course. For getting another ten shells afterward there's the jump through the raised bridge, just off to the side guarded by a fireborn, and a box of bullets to the other side, with water boost it'll cost you about 1 second maybe slightly less, but the shotgun on top of the crate could probably be gotten a little faster, i can confirm it's easily gotten even without an overhead item trick
In short i really think ammo won't be that much of an issue here if a little planning is put forth first leading up to the start of river of souls.

There is one other 3 explosive shell pickup that should only cost a second for the on foot trek if the player was worried about having ten for perfect soul gates. It's just to the right after the shot over the fence, you walk through the opening gate and look to your right and it's about 4 in-game feet from you.

As for the regular shells - The death marshes totem should be helpful enough to give you at least a box of ten and lets not forget the numerous 3 shell pickups in the raptors cage at the end of the death marshes, so as far as my totem strategy goes, i was using pistol so my shredder was left well alone with over 10 shells. the extra ten came from a box of shells around the totem. The on-foot route shouldn't really need to use anymore than 10 shells, some of the enemies can be taken care of with mag 60 of course. For getting another ten shells afterward there's the jump through the raised bridge, just off to the side guarded by a fireborn, and a box of bullets to the other side, with water boost it'll cost you about 1 second maybe slightly less, but the shotgun on top of the crate could probably be gotten a little faster, i can confirm it's easily gotten even without an overhead item trick
In short i really think ammo won't be that much of an issue here if a little planning is put forth first leading up to the start of river of souls.

Squeebles

2013-02-06 02:11:31 am

Ah, got it! Thanks for clearing that up for me ^u^

Behemoth

2013-02-11 12:01:13 pm

While rewatching both videos again I realized that i started timing using in game time, luckily that actually makes no difference. what did make a difference however was that I didn't start timing as you gain control of Turok after the portal sequence, Like Bismuth did. Which means my strategy should start at about 3 seconds into the video, and end up at the end portal at 1:43. This makes the strategy arrive in at 1:40. So if both videos re played side by side the on foot strategy should be about 10 seconds faster, as opposed to 7/8.

Bismuth

2013-02-13 09:08:22 pm

Worthless categories WR master

Damn, 10 seconds, that is impressive. I believe it makes single-segment harder now, but it could very well lead to a sub-44 for the first 3 missions. Hell, I am even thinking about sub-43:30 now! Totem defenses are improvable by a bunch (10 seconds for each of the first 2, maybe 5 on the last one IIRC), Death Marshes had some time lost and with the new finds there is about 15 more seconds to cut. I can easily see a run that could be 36 seconds faster than my current one and get under 43:30. Who knows, maybe sub-43 will happen someday lol

Behemoth

2013-02-15 08:07:51 am

After trying out the strat many times it's actually incredibly easy, the only 'difficult' part would be the shot over the fence, i think you need to move forward just after shooting to enable the game to activate the turret in the distance so it gets blown up. Other than this I'd say make sure you are topped up to 10 red shells beforehand, which is easily done from the pickups scattered around PoA and DM on route. During the strat if you collect the red shell pickup to the right of the aforementioned fence as well as the usual one before the high bridge you can end up with 10 red shells easily because you don't really need to use anymore from then on. So perfect soul gate destroying. For green shells The DM totem should be nice and give you a box of shells or several 3 shell pickups. You only need about 10 to do this strategy, 15 - 20 would be desirable and leave you with some remaining for the parts ahead before you get a chance to restock it.

Bismuth

2013-02-21 03:35:35 pm

Worthless categories WR master

I know I need at least 4 explosive shells when entering River of Souls normally. I collect 3 at the bridge during the riding gun part (7), I use 5 on the first soul gate (2), I pick 3 up when going for a level 4 key in the cross-shaped room (5), and use them on the last soul gate. One time, though, I had only 3 shells for the last gate but I still managed to destroy it using 3 explosive and 2 normal shells. I think I was just lucky but I believe it could use a bit of testing, just in case the soul gate is actually destroyable in 5 shots with only 3 of them being explosive shells consistently. Even 4 would still be useful. As for the normal shells, ammo isn't too much of a problem early on usually, most of the times I end up having already more than 10 when I reach the shotgun in the first graveyard, so I pick it up when I go back to the warp after killing the sister. In my first runs, I had less ammo than that at that point so I grabbed the ammo pickup before the sister, but since there is respawning pickups of 10 shells in that graveyard I usually come out of it pretty much full. The question would be whether I can somewhat easily get to that point without a lack of shells. I guess I could try to use my mag 60 a tiny bit more, like I do for the part just before the first soul gate (where numerous barrels/switches have to be shot).

Grey

2013-02-22 01:57:40 pm

I for one recommend using the War Blade and the head hunter trick if you need to save ammo later on, but as long as you get the ammo back before your first boss fight things should go well. I'm not sure how useful this advice is but I might as well state it- In both Turok: DH and Turok 2 there have been 3 different pick ups that constantly ruin boss fights- 10 pistol ammo, 1 grenade, and a small health pickup(Either 2 or 10HP). If you have less than full ammo for either pistol or grenade weapons there is a very high probability that the ammo generators(at least half of them) will generate one of these instead of your high value ammo. Similarly if you have less than 100HP early in a boss fight you run a high risk of getting health in place of usable ammo. Maybe the PC will behave better but it wouldn't hurt to be mindful of these things.

Bismuth

2013-02-23 10:05:32 am

Worthless categories WR master

I am aware of that Grey, the 1 grenade pickups are particularly annoying, but about the head hunter trick, I find it a bit hard to do perfectly, that is, to time the swing just right so I kill them before I touch them so I don't actually lose any speed at all. It is possible but requires precise timing and I'm better off just shooting them so I never get in close range. Plus, I get to dodge about 90% of the enemies in the first missions so I don't actually kill a lot of stuff. Actually, On the top of my head, in the whole River of Souls, I kill about 5 enemies that aren't 'mandatory': that is, the raptor in the big area with the gate keys, the dinosoid in that same area near a switch, the dinosaur on the corner of the building with the switch that opens the soul gate, one (or sometimes both) of the two that come in that building after you activate the switch, and the dinosoid that appears right in the door that opens up in the last area near the brown feather. I kill them because there is no efficient way of getting around them, but that's the only reason. The only one that could maybe use a head hunter is the last one, but at that point ammo is not a problem at all.

As for the new strats, I haven't played Turok in a while but I might go for River of Souls runs since most of the new stuff has been in that level. I'd like to do a segmented run but the extremely high standards I set myself are so hard to live up to I can't get past the first segment and get a 1:36, even after about 150-200 tries. Sad

I am aware of that Grey, the 1 grenade pickups are particularly annoying, but about the head hunter trick, I find it a bit hard to do perfectly, that is, to time the swing just right so I kill them before I touch them so I don't actually lose any speed at all. It is possible but requires precise timing and I'm better off just shooting them so I never get in close range. Plus, I get to dodge about 90% of the enemies in the first missions so I don't actually kill a lot of stuff. Actually, On the top of my head, in the whole River of Souls, I kill about 5 enemies that aren't 'mandatory': that is, the raptor in the big area with the gate keys, the dinosoid in that same area near a switch, the dinosaur on the corner of the building with the switch that opens the soul gate, one (or sometimes both) of the two that come in that building after you activate the switch, and the dinosoid that appears right in the door that opens up in the last area near the brown feather. I kill them because there is no efficient way of getting around them, but that's the only reason. The only one that could maybe use a head hunter is the last one, but at that point ammo is not a problem at all.

As for the new strats, I haven't played Turok in a while but I might go for River of Souls runs since most of the new stuff has been in that level. I'd like to do a segmented run but the extremely high standards I set myself are so hard to live up to I can't get past the first segment and get a 1:36, even after about 150-200 tries. :(

Squeebles

2013-02-24 02:39:48 am

Ah, alright then. Sounds like at this point it's pretty much down execution as the starts have been mined out pretty thoroughly. Best of luck with your continuing and future work with the game ^.^

Bismuth

2013-02-25 10:44:11 pm

Worthless categories WR master

Also, I think I haven't pointed that out: FPS varies under certain circumstances and it makes the gameplay vary in speed as well. That could be why there are differences between real time and in-game time. I found out that setting the FPS to 30 with Fraps is pretty much the best way to have smooth play. When not limiting the FPS though, it averages 40 with spikes up to 50. During those spikes, the gameplay is significantly faster, and I remember quite a few times where it threw me off guard and made me mess up. I'm thinking it's fairly important to note when talking about real time, which I personally prefer in most cases. For now I can say that using fraps to reduce the FPS to 30 and make it stay there is efficient in making the gameplay smooth and its speed accurate; I have the feeling that it slows the pace in comparison to what I've been used for a long time, which, of course, would mean that my real time records would be pretty much unbeatable with 30 FPS. I have yet to make a run with 30 FPS (it also needs Fraps to record even though I'm using WSplit when streaming, which is kinda harsh on my HDD) but I think it would be more around 45 minutes. That's weird, though, because in-game readings show times that are faster than 44 minutes, about 43 minutes actually. And I already know that cutscenes are included in those times. Anyway, that was just a structure-less stream of thoughts.

Squeebles

2013-02-26 04:23:46 am

Fascinating stuff -nod-

Bismuth

Edit history:

Bismuth: 2013-02-27 03:45:53 pm

Bismuth: 2013-02-27 02:23:22 pm

Bismuth: 2013-02-27 02:22:56 pm

Bismuth: 2013-02-27 02:22:46 pm

Bismuth: 2013-02-27 02:22:23 pm

2013-02-27 02:21:48 pm

Worthless categories WR master

Hey guys, I am thinking of streaming either tonight or tomorrow night right here, some River of Souls attempts with the strategies discussed above. I have a full week off school next week so expect a new world record for the first 3 missions! I know I should do full runs of the game though, instead of sticking to my stupid arbitrary category... In my opinion though it's the best one because you only get to do the easy and fun parts of the game Cheesy

Squeebles

2013-02-28 12:04:03 pm

Sounds good, I'll try and free up some time to watch soon ^u^

Bismuth

2013-03-04 07:27:38 am

Worthless categories WR master

So far I've gotten 1:44 as a best first segment but I can see 1:42 happening. Seeing how you seem to get 1:40 (I'm speaking real-time here) though, I guess something isn't right. The extensive use of the shredder in that part makes for more interesting use of the mag 60 during the first half of the level, I found out that getting the box of bullets at the first graveyard gives you the opportunity of not using your mag 60 ever again and get shells at the totem defense. No good time has come out of my playing session but I can feel 17:30 is not out of reach.

Firehyphen

2013-03-14 01:39:47 pm

UA is a walrus

Hi, i was told to post here cuase a thread about this was made. I need to people to help me improve on stuff and help my PB with some people.

I do run both the n64 and pc version but right now im focusing on improving the pc version.

So if anybody would like to help me out and start doing some stuff with em let me know.

giganotabehemoth87

2013-03-14 02:09:40 pm

Like i said on private thread, watch the run on the site here http://speeddemosarchive.com/Turok2.html.
This is the general route and nearly all the most up to date optimizations. Learn from this route and master it, and anything you want to ask, ask it here and we'll help.

Firehyphen

2013-03-14 02:16:53 pm

UA is a walrus

Do you happen to have the times each level took you by piece?

giganotabehemoth87

2013-03-14 07:05:21 pm

Not really, as I didnt save the game after each level but waited until starting the next level to save. and real time would be off as well since my saving and loading parts pepper each level. I could edit each movie to erase the saving and loading but it's a lot of work, but then you'd still only be getting realtime benefit. i do know that PoA in game time is about 12:30, and death marshes is more than a minute less than that.

You'd be much better off checking bismuth as he is more individual level oriented and more perfectionist than I am. Just one quote from Bismuth will give you an idea of just the first 3 levels of which he is specializing in at the moment.
- "With some calculations, using 12:27 for Port of Adia, 10:47 Death Marshes and 17:47 River of Souls, I would do the first 3 missions in 44:18. This makes me believe the best time one could aim at for an RTA of the first 3 missions is sub-44. It would require near-perfect runs on all three levels. Death Marshes is improvable by about 20 seconds so with 12:25 PoA, 10:30 DM and 17:40 RoS, one could do 43:54 theoretically."

out of curiosity what difficulty are you playing on ?

Not really, as I didnt save the game after each level but waited until starting the next level to save. and real time would be off as well since my saving and loading parts pepper each level. I could edit each movie to erase the saving and loading but it's a lot of work, but then you'd still only be getting realtime benefit. i do know that PoA in game time is about 12:30, and death marshes is more than a minute less than that.

You'd be much better off checking bismuth as he is more individual level oriented and more perfectionist than I am. Just one quote from Bismuth will give you an idea of just the first 3 levels of which he is specializing in at the moment.
- "With some calculations, using 12:27 for Port of Adia, 10:47 Death Marshes and 17:47 River of Souls, I would do the first 3 missions in 44:18. This makes me believe the best time one could aim at for an RTA of the first 3 missions is sub-44. It would require near-perfect runs on all three levels. Death Marshes is improvable by about 20 seconds so with 12:25 PoA, 10:30 DM and 17:40 RoS, one could do 43:54 theoretically."

out of curiosity what difficulty are you playing on ?

Firehyphen

2013-03-14 07:41:39 pm

UA is a walrus

Hard, and thanks ill keep that in mind