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Trilby: The Art of Theft () (pc) [100 %] [Single Segment]

Decision: Reject

Reason: Canceled by the runner.

This run will be available for a month. After that these link(s) will no longer work.
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Run Information

Trilby: The Art of Theft () (pc) [100 %] [Single Segment]

Verification Files

Please refer to the Verification Guidelines before posting.

Please post your opinions about the run and be certain to conclude your post with a verdict (Accept/Reject). This is not a contest where the majority wins - I will judge each verification on its content. Please keep your verification brief unless you have a good reason otherwise.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2016-08-17 11:05:11 am
Hmm... looks like this will be real-time-timed.

9:31 why couldn't you have rolled under this camera?
10:30 bad luck isn't it getting this as the 7th?
11:55 here you chain two rolls... is that only possible if the first one ends underneath a thing?
14:55 why no rolling here?

Didn't you have your sugar rush in the very last mission? Also I've seen Yahtzee's and Gabe's LP of this so I should probably remember, but what's with redoing just two missions at the end? I thought there was a gauntlet that took you through all of them.
Edit history:
Soulless: 2016-08-19 08:51:03 am
I really have no soul.
1. When you jump up, the camera notices you even if you are in the darkness. And if you roll through there immediately after you jump, the camera is still in "caution", so it registers you and you get an alarm, which means game over. If the medium light ended a bit more to the right, it would be possible, but because it is under the camera, you have to do it this way.
2. Technically, you can study which book is where and then you would know where to go, but that is annoying for me. Getting it as the 7th, sometimes slightly unfortunate. However what annoyed me is the fact that it was in the place as the Amateur Cracksman book, so I skipped it and had to go back, not particularly the fact it was the 7th.
3. Ye, if the first one ends under a thing, you can immediately take another one.
4. Now this one's a good question. I forgot to roll ^_^. There is no reason for not-rolling in there.

I used sugar rush at the boss encounter. Didn't last long though. Here's the thing. The very first mission, you can't complete that with a Trilby rank on your first try, because you can't get into the left door on the top floor. That's the only one you have to go through twice. And what better time, than after the sixth heist when you have all the perks.

There is a challenge, where you go through all the heists, but, this was the base game speedrun, where you start with nothing and do the 7 heists with a perfect rank. There is also a speedrun of that challenge on my youtube channel (SergeiDaBest (I know, shameless promotion)), but it's very cheesy, with all the perks and the Black Rain suit, plus, I added some cheeky stealth music as well as some jazz at the end, so that's probably not something I can submit in here.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2016-08-29 10:42:53 am
Yeah, sadly you can't submit a run if it doesn't have original audio. It could be submitted of course being a kind of independent extra mode.

Okay, now I get it: you do 1-6, return to redo 1, then do 7. Could you have done 1-7 then redone 1 or is it too late?

Alright, I think I get the run now. I remember the dev struggling with the unlocks (though he's not your consummate gamer by any means) so I can "forgive" missing them this much. You might want to copy your notes which I noticed you had on YT over into the submission so they end up on the run page after this has [presumably] been published. PS: thanks for running this game! Yahtzee's games are fun and unique, so this run really stands out for that reason. If you feel at all inclined, I feel like there's more of them worth running even though only this and Poacher are platformers. The Poacher, though, doesn't work unless you run an older OS.

For the other verifiers: this game is actually very intense if you couldn't tell... there's a ton of risks you could be taking and waiting around is inevitable to avoid alarms that instantly lose you the "trilby" rank.

Actually one more question: what do you mean by "taking the challenge so you had the Forgetfullness perk" in those comments?

I really have no soul.
Screw it. Should not have added the music, or at least kept the original file. Whatever. Maybe next time.

Nah, you have to do 1-6, then return to 1, then 7. You are awarded "the game rank" after you complete the 7th heist, so if you don't redo the first heist, you get ranks "A T T T T T T", which means your final rank is A and not perfect (Trilby). So it would count as any% and not 100%.

I have different comments on youtube and here. I don't really know whether or not I should change it now, I don't even remember what I wrote on youtube/here :D. Such a short memory. But I remember one thing, here, I actually have some useful comments, like, when to buy what perk and how to cut electrics, so if you really want to do a run, feel free to use some of that.

You are welcome. I was thinking like... "What games did I play (and was good at) when I was young and could do a speedrun of....JESUS LORD OMG, Trilby." Ye, I know about those games, probably the most recent one I've seen is The Consuming Shadow, watched some of his Ego Reviews and the other thing (Let's drown out...? something like that). But I don't know whether or not I want to do them, because Trilby is the only one that grew close to my heart. I am not that "I know everything about Yahtzee, Zero Punctuation, all games" guy, you know.
But perhaps, maybe just maybe, sometimes in the future? Because currently I am running out of games I know how to play, so I could check it out. Not promising anything though.

When I was recording my "base game" run, I even went through the challenge (7 missions in a row) at the end (you can see, on the splits side, there is a "challenge" split), because I wanted to to everything in one run. But....

Forgetfulness should be a perk, which, if you get caught and get an alarm, after some time, the alarm goes off and it's like nothing happened (so you could still get the Trilby rank). Mine did not work, maybe because I got the alarm late in the game? So the run was everything perfect and one alarm (if it did work, it would be a perfect run). I edited it out. But it was probably for the greater good, since I could do the faster, cheesy run later.

Hope you understand my broken english explanations, and I wish you luck with your speedrun, hope your hair turns just as grey as mine did. Enjoy!
I'm very sorry! I simply missed the comments link, they're there as you say... and the run doesn't look AS bad as you're making it sound.

If you do another run for some game later, you should consider restarting if the first mission doesn't go better than average.

The other Yahtzee platformer aside from The Poacher is 1311 which probably makes the simplest speedrun apart from a few boss fights. It's not entirely dissimilar to this game.

Can the challenge mode be accessed from the menu directly? Can you re-do it as many times as you like independent of the story campaign? If the strategies for doing the first cycle of missions are not going to change even if you know you're going to continue into the challenge mode, I don't know if it's smart to make doing both a speedrun category: after all it's the same with some more stuff tacked on at the end. Instead the challenge cycle should be a category of its own and it would be called a New Game + run.
I really have no soul.
Is okeh. It happens to all of us. Well a lot of things could have been better, but I know some could be worse, so it maybe balances itself out and IS a good run? I really don't know since there is no comparison? Yet? Idk.

If I wasn't recording for like the 100th time, I would probably do that. But after 100 tries, I said screw those 3 seconds, I would have something to improve in the future. The perfect time is 36 I got 39. So.... and it's like sometimes you open that door on the first try, if you don't, just go with it. Not everything can be perfect know what I'm sayin'...

Not gonna lie, I've seen the 1311 briefly and if I do something by Yahtzee, it's going to be that one.

No, you have to go through the procedure of: load, choose your save, go to the car and choose the challenge.

Well, I don't know what you mean, so let me explain. If you do the base game, THEN you can do the challenge over and over and over again. But you can't do it perkless, like, start a new game from the menu and do the challenge. That's a no-no.

Don't know if we are on the same page right now, but in my opinion, now that I think about it, there should be 2 categories:
New game + 7 missions
New game + 7 missions + The Challenge.
Though when I think again, I think the "GO HAM WITH ALL THE PERKS Challenge" still has some value and should be a category, just because of one simple thing. There is a perk called Bargain Hunter. It gives your loot +25 % money value, so, theoretically, to get the trilby rank, AND the fastest time, you would have to route those loots and only pick 80-81 % of it, and find the fastest way of course. That is pretty complex and deserves a category in my honest opinion.
A "New Game +" or "NG+" run specifically refers to cases where you start from a prepared save file and have unlocked anything that was possible to unlock beforehands. I don't know if it's worth ALSO having a "full game" run which has two loops, the normal and challenge one, because it looks like the challenge is neatly separated from the base game. That's why I think you could do:
-NG (this one)
-NG+ (challenge mode)

Are the missions exactly/pretty much the same on challenge mode?

Yes, if new routing is involved, it by and large does sound like the NG+ with all perks would be worthwhile.
I really have no soul.
I don't even know at this point. NG is fine. But why do NG+ when you can basically do the gauntlet. It is kinda different though, but Gauntlet makes more sense to me. Because with NG+, you would have to pick up 80 %+ of the loot in every single mission, whereas if you play the gauntlet, you have to pick up 80 %+ loot from all the heists combined. That one sounds better to me.
But there is still one thing, that's the "2 loops mode". You can only get a certain amount of RP to buy perks. So there would be A MAJOR DIFFERENCE, if you'd do the "2 loops", or just finish the game with the worst time ever, save RP, make a save, then buy the best perks, and then take the challenge.

So it could really be separated into many things, like:
NG, NG+, 2 loops and The Challenge itself.

This is pretty amazing by the way, from a simple concept, look where we have gotten thanks to overthinking.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2016-08-24 05:20:22 am
Are you saying that your RP don't get reset for the second loop? The idea of an NG+ is you get the best possible starting state using a casual, but thorough, playthrough. You can already have bought everything you need for the second cycle. But is that not possible for this game? Is it impossible to buy everything during loop one? Or redo missions to grind more RP?

By "gauntlet" do you mean 2 loops? If not, let's stick to calling 2 loops 2 loops, and challenge mode challenge.

I don't think you can ignore ILs for this either because it always shows you your time after all. I see someone has already done some of those. Those need to be NG+ ofc. which gives us some reason to consider dropping one of the other NG+ categories, but I'll wait till you've clarified what you meant.

Did you ever see this BTW? It uses a different timing and is segmented but anyway... Actually it mentions a trick you don't use! I think that will save significant time. You should really re-do this run then. You're not using the best known strats. That run has been out for so long...
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2016-08-29 11:13:15 am
So to be very clear, my verdict is now a reject because there's a trick that saves significant time omitted. It's been known about since no later than 2008.

With the current route, it saves time in 3 missions. I think you move at around double speed, suggesting something like 20 seconds could be saved like this (8 seconds each minus dropping off ledges etc.) - however, you can get the sugar rush earlier. It should be considered as an alternative routing then.

Have you thought about whether there's a cycle to be saved anywhere in the big sphere room in mission 7 when you first pass through it if you use the rush already then?
I really have no soul.
I haven't checked back in a long time, and it's 1 am, so let's go through it, shall we.

I don't even know what you mean by the 2 loops now, to be honest. I know what an NG+ is, or would be in this game, but. I don't think you can buy everything, EVER. But some of the perks are useless, so what's the point of having infinite RP. Quote on quote infinite, of course. Once you steal all the possible loot, and get all the Trilby ranks on everything, you've maxxed out your RP. I have never done that before, because....why would I.

Let's just go through all the possible modes AGAIN. Gosh, 1 am. Here we go.

New Game: You start with nothing, you beat the 7 missions. (any%/100%)
New Game+: You start with the best equipment possible, and do the 7 missions. (100%) (since there is no reason to do this one on any%, I think)
"The Challenge+" itself: You play the game without buying many perks to save as much, to get the best perks and outfit and do only the challenge (100%)
2 loops: You start with nothing and you beat the 7 missions AND the Challenge (100%)

That's about it. I don't have a single clue about what "IL" is, and I have clarified everything by this point.

I saw it briefly, but I did not care, since we both did TOTALLY DIFFERENT THINGS. He is doing NG any% segmented, I am doing NG 100% Single Segment. So I don't care about the strats, since they are not going to help me with the run I do/did.

So to be very precisely clear, why is this a reject now? Like what am I missing here? I developed my strats for my run, which is different in every single aspect from his run, is that not okay? I mean....the run is legit. And, if you remember, I told you that this is not the perfect run, and I even improved it by a minute with my current strats. Like....any other run than a tip top perfect one is a reject? Plus, I don't even know if I can justify changing my strats, because if I don't get Locksmith lvl2 and get Sugar Rush instead, then I can't buy Reasonable Doubt, which screws me over, I have to then buy Locksmith lvl2, I NEED Locksmith lvl3 if I even want to continue the perfect run, because you HAVE TO HAVE the Locksmith lvl3 to open one door in Kroner Avenue, I would not have enough RP. I have to sacrifice either Locksmith lvl3, which I can't, because I do 100%, not any% like he did, so it's between Reasonable Doubt and Sugar Rush. And while, right, Sugar Rush saves me so much time, it TREMENDOUSLY increases the chance of me getting spotted. So I would not do 100 tries to make a run, but 2000 instead. I can't even imagine right now, what kind of hell it would be. I don't think Sugar Rush compensates for that pain + time waste on waiting for the came/guys to turn away. That's why I came up with Reasonable Doubt.

So I don't exactly get the reject, when you are comparing NG any% segmented in-game timed strats, to NG 100% SS real-time timed strats. That is beyond my understanding.

I haven't, because I don't really care about possible time savings, when I have them guaranteed when I use the Rush and nothing is in my way, so I fully utilize it. There, it's constant stop n go, not worth trying in my opinion.

I am currently dedicating my time to Fighting Force speedrunning + datamining and learning everything about the game, so I don't know if I even want to redo the run and get it rejected after waiting forever for no reason, but hey. I can certainly try out the Sugar Rush instead of Lockpick lvl2, change the routes, sac the R. Doubt, but I don't think it will work in a 100% run. Can't imagine. Though will try.

Now I can go to sleep, because I have to wake up in 4 hours. And I am triggered.
Maybe you wanna read what I wrote again over the weekend or something? More importantly read the run notes for the old run. It requires a second verifier no matter what.

It's usually a bad idea to reply to posts at 1 AM...
I really have no soul.
No, I got the just of it. I read the old run's notes. The trick is, you use the Sugar Rush on the intermission screen, and then you can use another one in the mission itself. Which is cool, for any% runs, not the 100% one I did. It's not worth it, since you are constantly stopping for loot, opening lots of doors and going to places where he did not even look.

I bought the Sugar Rush after heist 5. So in the 6th one, there is no need for it at the beginning, because you have to count up the number quickly, jump up and down like a lunatic, open doors, and by the time you get anywhere, your boost is over and nothing is accomplished. Redo of the 1st heist, okay, that could be worth it, maybe, but it screws up the pattern, and, again, you have to stop for loot, plus the guy on the middle floor isn't going to change his movement, it's coded. So little (but some) use for it there. I use it at the end of this one wisely, so I can get away quickly, AND the Rush ends at exactly the right place at the end of the 7th heist. Thought it doesn't matter, because.....even if I was to use it before the 7th mission on the intermission, I STILL HAVE TO WAIT FOR THE GODDAMN CAMERA TO TURN, plus even then, if a miracle happened, I can't change the pattern of the lasers. Whoops. That's where this strat falls flat on the face.

And because I am really triggered right now, here's a challenge for you. You, YEAH, YOU go, and do the 100% run with this strat, and show me that I'm wrong. Or, ask the guy from 2008 to do a 100% run with his strat. You know why he did any% and not 100% with this strat back then? Because it doesn't work Smiley I can see it working there, but not here. Don't try ever again.

You compared apples with oranges, said they are the same, and boom, reject. I sincerely thank you and your time and with you luck with future endeavours. Like....why. Asking why......the sacrifice of hiding in a lie.

It's usually a bad idea to compare any% strats with 100% strats... at any AM/PM

But hey, thanks for the info, it requires 2 verifiers, so it's never going to be verified. I can forget and live happily again.
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2016-09-03 09:41:30 am
LotBlind: 2016-09-03 09:40:28 am
LotBlind: 2016-09-03 09:39:42 am
So if we could take a non-emotional look at this today... I've downloaded and played it a bit as well.

Firstly some generic notes about the run:
- lockpicking I felt I was able to do about as well as the runner despite having so little practice: on the other hand it's largely a simple reflexes game so I don't know how much that can be improved by training - also the later locks look like it's moving WAY faster so I'm not at all surprised to see anyone failing them even several times before nailing it.
- the safes I never got any fails on (about 10 trials) after first working out how they work, so getting the fail on the first one is a bit unnecessary: this I believe was also the only time though (IIRC) and only costs 1½ seconds
- it's somewhat difficult to position yourself carefully because there's a delay before Trilby starts and stops moving
- what I said earlier about the run being very intense is still true: alarms happen really quickly, the delay is maybe 1 second until you get the Reasonable Doubt upgrade. It cannot be overemphasized that the runner is really cutting corners, and a looot of game knowledge is on display (lots of things to memorize). The controls even aren't too too intuitive (not for me at least).

As I said earlier getting both a lockpick fail and even that safe fail in the very first mission should probably have led to a reset.

- Flit seems to be about as fast for moving around as rolling is with the situational benefit of instantly wallhugging at the end. I think if it was used very proficiently (not easy) it might just save time to buy it over not having it, somewhere, but it's probably not one to go for early on.
- Sugar Rush makes some actions faster, not just movement, but I haven't extensively tested it to know how much: still, it's clear grollying up or down is sped up, as is rolling (and flitting). You will not be able to perform movement quite as precisely though, which could be annoying.
- Reasonable Doubt sounds like just a safety thing, but it's not just that if the runner uses it to hit cycles they couldn't otherwise hit, at which point you're saving lots of time as well.

The thing is... this run's upgrades route is NOT optimal. At 7:50, the runner was left at 296 RP after purchases. This is the lowest it gets to after the second mission, meaning if he had had an extra 4 RP, he could have bought Sugar Rush earlier (after mission 2). It just so happens, you get an extra 7 RP for each of the guest room's locks (check 4:15 to see what I mean). I doubt adding another lock to that part compromises the strategy around the guard there too badly. And in case anyone was wondering, I tested to make sure just picking the lock doesn't activate an alarm, and they do all yield the same bonus.

With Sugar Rush after mission 2, the runner gets to use it in... well, missions 3, 4, and 5 (once coming from the workshop, once inside the mission itself). At this point, I have to reassert that this run should probably be given a reject for now, despite having what I consider sufficiently good (albeit evidently improvable by a lot) execution. If I've misunderstood something in the above, please point it out, and I will reassess the run accordingly.



12:00 - I missed this A/V mishap here earlier: it's not a big deal but just pointing out.

12:22 - here is where Sugar Rush is bought in this route.

ILs refer to "Individual Levels", i.e. runs like this. Because the game shows you your time for every mission after it's over, there's going to be a category called ILs, which means you submit every mission done (in this case using the best equipment/upgrades, but no upgrades is also arguable for). I'm not going to return to the categories discussion, but I will if you want me to - generally it's just a question of finding the most categories that overlap the least, but without completely sacrificing what's logical/standard.
I really have no soul.
It's 2 AM again and this time, I am going to take your advice and look at it in the morning, with a clear head. And maybe I won't get triggered.
I really have no soul.
We can totally take a non-emotional look today, I am feeling fine, let's see if reading this changes my mood.

The thing with the lockpicking is, especially with level 1 and 2 locks I believe, is, that sometimes, the thing that you are trying to open the door with will get stuck in one place no matter how much you push the right button, and other times, it just flies through without stopping. So it's kind of RNG and mostly reflexes. Sometimes it clicks, sometimes it doesn't.

The first safe is the only problem, just because the others move so much faster (even the one in the 2nd heist), so if you get used to the speed and then you have to do a slow's tougher than you imagine. You'd have to play a lot of this game to understand exactly how it feels, I think.

Starting and stopping perfectly requires much practice.

That is in fact true, that's why I developed the Reasonable Doubt strategy, because without it it's pretty much a nonexistent run.

I understand it, but after doing it for the 100th try, would you be so happy to just restart every time after a minor mistake like that. Getting a perfect run is nearly impossible, something WILL happen, sooner or later. So I said hell with it, at least there's room to improve for me later/it's encouraging for other people to play with a possibility of beating me without their hair turning grey.

Flit is useless, because you have to stop, turn back, then X and left/right, then unhug the wall again. I see no use for it whatsoever. I tried it back in the day, said nope, that ain't worth it.

Sugar Rush should be used mostly for any% runs/long straights in the 100% run, because stopping on spot is difficult per se, adding Sugar Rush and precisely stopping is tough. If you miss, you have to backtrack a little, which is impossible because if you only tippity tap the button, you fly off the spot. So it's for straights (with grolling, that's fine) and nothing more.

Sounds like it, but isn't. It's like a counterpart to Sugar Rush, because they work the same. You can storm the area without being spotted. Except Sugar Rush lasts a few seconds, and Reasonable Doubt lasts FOREVER. So you can see which one I prefer, obviously.

I never said the run is optimal, I wanted to redo it as soon as I did the first one. Like I even told you, even with my basic strats, I could save a minute. And see, FINALLY, you said something that I can start with. Why couldn't you say this before. I moved on to Fighting Force's trivia, history, speedruns and all the version and did not review/redo Trilby. I don't care about the rest of what you've said/you're saying, if I pick one more thing in the first mission, which is easy, I can easily buy Sugar Rush after the second one. No big deal. Now I get it. But you could have said it earlier and not make me angry.

Or, why didn't you do a run with that strategy and told me nothing, you would have surprised and surpassed me in a huge fashion.

I accidentaly pressed the "end run" button instead of the "split" button, my bad.
Now that I know I can buy it after the 2nd heist AND buy Reasonable Doubt after 3rd, okay, I can redo it.

REJECT to myself

Maybe I should just stick to what I put originally at, which means:
NG any%/100% and Individual levels (with all the stuff) any%/100%
Edit history:
LotBlind: 2016-09-04 01:45:33 pm
Flit could serve a purpose the way I see it - in some situations you will actually already be facing backwards, so that step is eliminated, and if you time it right, I'm sure there's a place somewhere where you will have to wallhug at the end anyway because of something like lasers. You could also go get something, like loot, from the left let's say, and doing a flit perfectly positions you for entering a door you're close to (saves turning around). Because the distance is different from a roll, I can see it making more sense in some situations. Perhaps even a way of quickly crossing a space when you need to immediately wallhug because of guards/cameras anyway, when the alternative is waiting around for longer.

I did not immediately see the improved sugar rush strategy, that was initially just speculation. As a verifier doing lots of games I haven't played [enough] of myself, I have to go with hunches and best guesses sometimes. The reason I rushed the "reject" earlier was simply because the deadline for this verification was about to hit and you were nowhere in sight at that moment. You can always explain things more thoroughly if you feel the verifiers don't see the run the way they should (and a verification can even be re-opened if need be).

Sugar rush strats are probably necessary for NG+ ILs though. I think you could do no-upgrade ILs as well as those full-upgrade/NG+ ILs, both in any% and the latter in 100% as you say, though the way you acquire all the RP is a bit unfortunate if it requires first buying the lock picking upgrades, which means there might be missions where you don't really need those and would have been better off buying something else. Hopefully the RPs are enough for everything that's useful. Otherwise you might have to define full-upgrade ILs as having only the RP that is left over after buying lockpicking 2 and 3, which would diminish the need to mess with different save files etc. so much wouldn't it?

It's probably tough living with whatever your condition is, but I'm only doing my job here exactly the same way I do with every other run.

EDIT: When you do the run, remember that in some cases you can probably benefit more from activating the Rush immediately after returning to the workshop instead of after completing purchases (before mission 4?) - I'm mentioning this separately because it's something someone could miss.
I really have no soul.
Going to keep it short this time.

Nah it's useless.

Nah, it's okay now. I don't even care, I did much more Fighting Force than this, this is just a bonus. It should be re-opened when I get a new run, which will be in....late October maybe. If I have some spare time.

No-upgrade IL's would be a nightmare, especially since in e. g. the 5th mission, you can't get 100% unless you have Locksmith lvl.3, so not a fan. It kind of depends like how much RP you spend on the lockpicks and how much you gain because of that. Perhaps there could be a category called "No upgrades besides Lockpick 3", I don't know. But since I am going to have some hard months coming ahead, I don't think it will ever happen. Anything mentioned here. The RP's are enough for all the goods I think. Lockpick lvl.3 only/Best possible upgrades, seems like the way to go.

Yeah, living with clinical depression, PTSD and ADD is hard, good that you figured.

I've already mentioned it, same goes for mission 7 (my example).
Decision posted.