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ARF
ARF
Edit history:
ARF: 2014-02-10 12:56:34 pm
ARF: 2014-02-10 10:59:40 am
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ARF: 2013-11-27 09:41:15 am
ARF: 2013-11-20 09:34:41 am
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2013-01-29 03:20:16 pm
Welcome HELL
This thread is about Shoot the Bullet and Double Spoiler - the 9.5th and 12.5th installments in the touhou series.

The games are currently up for verification, but in the meantime, let's discuss strategy and improve the IL times even further!

There's already a thread for Double Spoiler speedrunning, but it's outdated and I have no name doesn't have time to keep updating that, and we agreed that starting a new thread for both StB and DS would be easier for everyone involved (rather than having a mod let me hijack his thread or something like that).

Scene - Time left - Player

1-1: 37,57 by ARF
1-2: 37,47 by ARF
1-3: 46,35 by ARF
1-4: 68,77 by ARF
1-5: 59,17 by ARF
1-6: 57,72 by ARF

2-1: 68,76 by ARF
2-2: 63,60 by ARF
2-3: 68,04 by ARF
2-4: 53,95 by ARF
2-5: 68,64 by ARF
2-6: 68,06 by ARF

3-1: 59,40 by ARF
3-2: 59,72  by ARF
3-3: 69,61  by ARF
3-4: 83,12 by ARF
3-5: 59,04 by ARF
3-6: 81,04 by ARF
3-7: 67,06 by ARF
3-8: 63,76 by ARF

4-1: 71,15 by ARF
4-2: 95,06 by ARF
4-3: 69,51 by ARF
4-4: 63,37 by ARF
4-5: 68,71 by ARF
4-6: 63,58 by ARF
4-7: 62,65 by ARF
4-8: 65,48 by ARF
4-9: 69,59 by ARF

5-1: 67,40 by ARF
5-2: 69,32 by ARF
5-3: 69,56 by ARF
5-4: 69,04 by ARF
5-5: 63,30 by ARF
5-6: 69,61 by ARF
5-7: 91,25 by ARF
5-8: 65,57 by ARF

6-1: 97,05 by ARF
6-2: 111,11 by ARF
6-3: 98,97 by ARF
6-4: 74,94 by ARF
6-5: 58,79 by ARF
6-6: 68,06 by ARF
6-7: 76,56 by ARF
6-8: 77,56 by ARF

7-1: 102,57 by ARF
7-2: 105,49 by ARF
7-3: 79,47 by ARF
7-4: 80,60 by ARF
7-5: 53,52 by ARF
7-6: 109,89 by ARF
7-7: 64,71 by ARF
7-8: 91,00 by ARF

8-1: 114,53 by ARF
8-2: 111,19 by ARF
8-3: 84,69 by ARF
8-4: 79,40 by ARF
8-5: 110,26 by ARF
8-6: 129,04 by ARF
8-7: 81,75 by ARF
8-8: 116,50 by ARF

9-1: 110,36 by ARF
9-2: 114,65 by ARF
9-3: 80,30 by ARF
9-4: 109,95 by ARF
9-5: 72,75 by ARF
9-6: 110,03 by ARF
9-7: 87,14 by ARF
9-8: 90,72 by ARF

10-1: 142,97 by ARF
10-2: 95,24 by ARF
10-3: 152,26 by ARF
10-4: 134,45 by ARF
10-5: 107,93 by ARF
10-6: 102,74 by ARF
10-7: 94,20 by ARF
10-8: 193,37 by ARF

EX-1: 94,70 by ARF
EX-2: 153,49 by ARF
EX-3: 97,86 by ARF
EX-4: 94,25 by ARF
EX-5: 136,32 by ARF
EX-6: 99,73 by ARF
EX-7: 153,17 by ARF
EX-8: 157,45 by ARF

Total time: 37:41.32


Scene - Time left - Player

1-1: 97.51 by Ridley 64
1-2: 76.69 by ARF
1-3: 76.40 by Random
1-4: 85.84 by Random
1-5: 70.44 by ARF
1-6: 82.05 by Random

2-1: 100.77 by ARF
2-2: 70.53 by ARF
2-3: 95.45 by ARF
2-4: 100.45 by ARF
2-5: 101.70 by ARF
2-6: 101.68 by ARF

3-1: 100.51 by ARF
3-2: 100.43 by ARF
3-3: 99.72 by ARF
3-4: 96.07 by ARF
3-5: 95.10 by ARF
3-6: 100.99 by ARF
3-7: 104.15 by ARF
3-8: 96.22 by ARF

4-1: 102.50 by ARF
4-2: 96.80 by ARF
4-3: 95.34 by ARF
4-4: 62.48 by ARF
4-5: 101.58 by ARF
4-6: 98.13 by ARF
4-7: 95.77 by Random

5-1: 95.62 by Zil
5-2: 97.45 by ARF
5-3: 89.14 by ARF
5-4: 95.28 by ARF
5-5: 90.87 by Random
5-6: 95.02 by ARF
5-7: 101.40 by ARF
5-8: 96.55 by ARF

6-1: 96.40 by ARF
6-2: 96.65 by ARF
6-3: 85.46 by ARF
6-4: 100.75 by ARF
6-5: 101.55 by ARF
6-6: 99.03 by ARF
6-7: 98.03 by DarkDespair5
6-8: 83.44 by ARF

7-1: 86.45 by ARF
7-2: 84.94 by ARF
7-3: 96.25 by ARF
7-4: 96.19 by ARF
7-5: 93.03 by ARF
7-6: 87.56 by ARF
7-7: 91.63 by ARF

8-1: 128.58 by ARF
8-2: 97.02 by ARF
8-3: 137.38 by ARF
8-4: 92.77 by ARF
8-5: 129.54 by ARF
8-6: 94.29 by ARF
8-7: 130.07 by ARF
8-8: 92.85 by ARF

9-1: 162.10 by ARF
9-2: 94.28 by ARF
9-3: 167.05 by ARF
9-4: 177.01 by ARF
9-5: 103.50 by ARF
9-6: 231.20 by ARF
9-7: 187.70 by ARF
9-8: 196.41 by ARF

10-1: 177.20 by ARF
10-2: 175.37 by ARF
10-3: 168.12 by ARF
10-4: 173.22 by ARF
10-5: 169.09 by ARF
10-6: 170.50 by ARF
10-7: 168.40 by ARF
10-8: 176.80 by ARF

11-1: 172.07 by ARF
11-2: 165.63 by ARF
11-3: 180.07 by ARF
11-4: 176.02 by ARF
11-5: 166.31 by ARF
11-6: 174.66 by ARF
11-7: 176.72 by ARF
11-8: 178.01 by ARF

12-1: 177.02 by ARF
12-2: 182.15 by ARF
12-3: 174.80 by ARF
12-4: 173.04 by ARF
12-5: 165.75 by ARF
12-6: 172.21 by ARF (be advised that replays of this scene tend to desynch; either live-record or save multiple replays)
12-7: 169.62 by ARF
12-8: 255.05 by ARF

EX-1: 175.74 by ARF
EX-2: 177.67 by ARF
EX-3: 178.26 by ARF
EX-4: 183.23 by ARF
EX-5: 175.85 by ARF
EX-6: 180.75 by Random
EX-7: 170.47 by ARF
EX-8: 178.01 by ARF
EX-9: 150.65 by ARF

SP-1: 18.56 by I have no name
SP-2: 177.97 by ARF
SP-3: 115.19 by Ridley 64
SP-4: 89.34 by Ridley 64
SP-5: 18.56 by I have no name
SP-6: 182.60 by ARF
SP-7: 183.14 by Ridley 64
SP-8: 177.73 by Ridley 64
SP-9: 163.64 by ARF

Total time: 44:28.98


Resources:
Touhou game replay uploader/host - use this to easily share your replays.
Royalflare.net - Japanese replay uploader with neatly arranged high scoring replays for Shoot the Bullet and Double Spoiler - Can be very useful for getting inspiration for speedrunning strategies.
Shoot the Bullet Done Quick - Contains the vast majority of the current best IL's in StB - use this for easy reference.
Double Spoiler Done Quick - Contains many of the current best IL's in DS - use this for easy reference.
Strategy section for Shoot the Bullet and Double Spoiler on the touhouwiki.
Thread title:  
ARF
ARF
Edit history:
ARF: 2013-09-29 04:51:48 pm
ARF: 2013-01-29 04:17:03 pm
ARF: 2013-01-29 04:13:14 pm
ARF: 2013-01-29 03:49:32 pm
2013-01-29 03:40:44 pm
Welcome HELL
In short, to get a good time in this game you need to stay within range of the boss when possible, snap photos really quickly, cancel as many bullets as you can to get more camera recharge and survive!

Some general information and advice which can be good to keep in mind when speedrunning these games.

In Shoot the Bullet:
Going up against the right side of the screen is often extremely helpful, since it allows you to see your gauge increasing (unlike the left side of the screen) and increases your reach (since the camera frame doesn't tilt in StB unlike in DS).

The photography mechanic is different in StB compared to DS, you can simply let go of focused movement when your gauge is full to enter camera zooming mode instantly (in DS you have to let go of shot as well as shift, and then press shot again to start taking a photo).

For the vast majority of scenes in StB the charge caps are at 27% after the first (boss) photo, and then an additional 3% for every following photo, when the charge cap is 40%+ it really pays off to wait for more bullets to spawn, as that much charge is worth over a second.

In Double Spoiler:
After snapping a photo and having regained control of Aya, there is an approx. 1.09 second time window where you can't recharge the camera.
The first 10% of charging the camera takes approx. 0.62 seconds, the first 20% takes 1.02 seconds, and every 10% afterwards takes 0.33 seconds for a total of 3.66 seconds to go from 0% to 100%.
This means that 3% charge regain from canceling bullets is worth approximately 0.1 seconds.
(Most of this works more or less the same in StB, but I haven't checked if/how much the times vary)

The charge cap for Aya in DS after a (boss) photo is 35%, anything more doesn't make a difference from what I can tell. The actual cap varies a lot more from scene to scene in DS though, and only a few actually lets you reach this cap from the get-go. Many scenes cap at 18% and increase by 2% for every photo. For Hatate the charge regain caps at 60% for boss photos. For defensive photos the cap is 55% for Aya and 75% for Hatate.

Bullets momentarily give double camera recharge if canceled during a certain time frame while spawning, this is easy to notice when playing 1-4, for example, and useful in various scenes. Using the natural slowdown induced by zooming the camera can help you time your photos to achieve this more easily.

Doing a quick sideway dash as you take a photo tilts the frame and can sometimes help you reach further in seemingly less time.
fsvgm777
2013-01-29 03:44:41 pm
Here's my 91.18 replay of 5-7 in StB, even though it's featured in Shoot the Bullet Done Quick anyway:
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=24480

Don't know if a 91.2X is possible.
ARF
2013-01-29 04:09:50 pm
Welcome HELL
I put a link to it in the table now, I was hoping that most levels would get replaced before I had to go add all the replay links to StB :V

Yeah, it's a very good time, I was surprised to see that scene improved since I felt that was already pretty good, but I guess it's somewhat similar 1-2 in DS in the regard that you only really have to focus on quick photos over dealing with random bullets.
Zil
2013-01-29 05:16:57 pm
Awesome. Thanks for letting me know about this thread or I would never have found it. :V Now I'll have to re-install these games, which won't be until the weekend, but I'll definitely see what I can do. It's been too long since I played one of these.
ARF
ARF
Edit history:
ARF: 2013-01-30 05:39:42 am
ARF: 2013-01-30 05:39:32 am
2013-01-30 05:38:30 am
Welcome HELL
Looking forward to it, just please don't steal away 10-7 again Cry Just kidding play what you want

Here's a improvement for 4-3 in Double Spoiler, using this as an example submission.

Game-scene-time left
replay link
comment

DS 4-3, 95.08
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26663
Reverting to the old strategy since it obviously has higher bullet canceling potential.
fsvgm777
2013-01-30 05:52:41 am
Quote from ARF:
Yeah, it's a very good time, I was surprised to see that scene improved since I felt that was already pretty good, but I guess it's somewhat similar 1-2 in DS in the regard that you only really have to focus on quick photos over dealing with random bullets.
I was surprised myself that I improved the time in 5-7 by 0.04 seconds, which is like... 2-3 frames. Matter of fact, I retried that scene over 100 times and wasted over 1000 photos on that scene alone. Funny how I'm the only other one on the StB IL table, and only for one scene, even.
ARF
ARF
Edit history:
ARF: 2013-01-30 11:08:03 am
ARF: 2013-01-30 11:07:50 am
2013-01-30 07:48:51 am
Welcome HELL
Quote from fsvgm777:
Quote from ARF:
Yeah, it's a very good time, I was surprised to see that scene improved since I felt that was already pretty good, but I guess it's somewhat similar 1-2 in DS in the regard that you only really have to focus on quick photos over dealing with random bullets.
I was surprised myself that I improved the time in 5-7 by 0.04 seconds, which is like... 2-3 frames. Matter of fact, I retried that scene over 100 times and wasted over 1000 photos on that scene alone. Funny how I'm the only other one on the StB IL table, and only for one scene, even.


Well, I usually try beating a scene at first by doing my own strategy, if that doesn't work I watch the replay, looking for flaws in strategy or execution, but 5-7 is so straightforward that the only possible improvements are through camera handling speed. I'm reluctant to spend much more than a 100 photos on something that's already very very good, unless I just really like the scene I guess.

I hope you will continue speedrunning these games, I think perseverance like that is really good when doing IL's in these games. In many scenes it comes down to sitting through 100 photos just to get one shot at clearing, which is fun because you get this now or never feel every time Smiley

-

DS 7-1, 86.45
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26668
Top of the screen strats. With this 87.xx might be achievable.
guwa
2013-01-30 10:55:15 pm
oh damn, all my records are beaten. GG ARF.
ARF
2013-01-31 04:56:01 am
Welcome HELL
Quote from guwa:
oh damn, all my records are beaten. GG ARF.

Yeah, it only took me 6 months or so... well played.
guwa
2013-02-01 01:18:09 am
Quote from ARF:
Quote from guwa:
oh damn, all my records are beaten. GG ARF.

Yeah, it only took me 6 months or so... well played.

Can you go take 16k shots on DS 9-4 just to make me feel better?
ARF
2013-02-01 10:29:27 am
Welcome HELL
Quote from guwa:
Quote from ARF:
Quote from guwa:
oh damn, all my records are beaten. GG ARF.

Yeah, it only took me 6 months or so... well played.

Can you go take 16k shots on DS 9-4 just to make me feel better?


I still don't understand how you got the dedication to spend all that time on a single scene! I'd go crazy.

DS EX-9, 150.65
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26705
Experimenting with the camera alignments and stuff. While I think I'm on the right track, I didn't get particularly good cancels during the later phases, I think it is worth panning the camera more than I did. 151.xx should be possible.
Zil
2013-02-03 08:17:51 am
Several hours of effort have yielded a couple tenths of a second of improvement!

DS EX-1, 174.21
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26734
Reimu's movements were favorable. I also found that it was often a bad idea to try to charge the camera when misdirecting the amulets.
ARF
2013-02-03 09:56:32 am
Welcome HELL
Quote from Zil:
Several hours of effort have yielded a couple tenths of a second of improvement!

DS EX-1, 174.21
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26734
Reimu's movements were favorable. I also found that it was often a bad idea to try to charge the camera when misdirecting the amulets.


Very nice, that's going to be tough to beat, I immediately tried it, seeing how you broke charge before the first photo, but as the giant amulets have such weird charge refill I understand that a bottleneck occurs at the second photo (I'm guessing that you noticed this as well).

Updated the level table.
fsvgm777
2013-02-03 04:14:04 pm
Hey ARF, I just beat another one of your records!
StB EX-1, 94.57
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26740

An improvement of 0.07 seconds (~4-5 frames). Spent an hour (of both successful and failed attempts) to improve it by this much. A 94.6X might even be possible.
ARF
2013-02-03 05:33:14 pm
Welcome HELL
Quote from fsvgm777:
Hey ARF, I just beat another one of your records!
StB EX-1, 94.57
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26740

An improvement of 0.07 seconds (~4-5 frames). Spent an hour (of both successful and failed attempts) to improve it by this much. A 94.6X might even be possible.


Great to see more StB competition!

StB EX-1, 94.70
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26743
Only got 23% recharge from second photo, I got 24% sometimes, but maybe that was because my first photo was slower in those cases. But I believe it had to do with my vertical position on the screen.

After having having equaled I have no name's frame perfect SP-1 and SP-5 (which took me 20 tries each) I can say that getting frame perfect photos is not easy to do consistently, and that even in a scene like this with essentially no random elements(and assuming the charge regains are near-optimal with the current strategy), I would not be surprised to see another 0.15 seconds come off (although it would probably be very, very hard to do).
I have no name
2013-02-03 05:39:37 pm
Obscure games ftw
I got SP-1 in like 5 tries Tongue
SP-5 was about 30.
ARF
2013-02-03 05:55:41 pm
Welcome HELL
Quote from I have no name:
I got SP-1 in like 5 tries Tongue
SP-5 was about 30.


Oh well, for me getting multiple frame perfects in a row seems very difficult anyway, especially without the dialogue beforehand, but at the same time I can definitely see certain scenes getting within a frame or two of perfection if given enough competition.
I have no name
2013-02-03 07:45:29 pm
Obscure games ftw
Yeah frame perfect timing is definitely far from easy, especially having to get it multiple times in a row.
ARF
ARF
Edit history:
ARF: 2013-02-05 07:36:23 pm
ARF: 2013-02-05 07:35:53 pm
2013-02-05 06:08:27 pm
Welcome HELL
StB 5-7, 91.25
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26819
This scene confuses me.

Like really, the more I play it the less I understand this scene. Anyway, feels nice to hold all the scenes again (for how long will that last though?). Thanks for the motivation to play, fsvgm777.

DS EX-1, 175.74
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26821
I kept thinking about the second photo bottleneck and came back to try finding a solution. Turn out that if you are fast enough (and get favorable boss movements) you can get off the second photo while the bullets from the second amulet are spawning, and get the 35% refill from them (too late and they are worth very little). This is just the first clear with this strategy as it is quite annoying to pull off. Whew.
Zil
2013-02-05 08:09:04 pm
Wow, that's a nice improvement. Certainly a better strategy, though I can see how annoying it could get if Reimu doesn't move where you want her to.

I've looked at a few other DS scenes but didn't get any better times. A lot of these are so good it's crazy. And it's hard to find the ones with the most room for improvement.
ARF
2013-02-05 09:32:49 pm
Welcome HELL
There are not many scenes where I know if even a second could be saved at this point, but then, I never expected EX-1 to have another 2 second potential yesterday, so who knows...

Best bet seems to be 10-2 right now; it can be improved by probably 1-2 seconds if you instead of streaming the lasers along the bottom of the screen utilize the laser safespots that appear just outside of Iku's spell card circle, they are spacious enough to allow you to dodge the bullets without having to get too lucky, and you are within reach of Iku pretty much instantly.

Also a few scenes where a great amount of luck can save a second or so, but those are really annoying to play, like 10-1, EX-7 and possibly 7-3 (Shou has extremely bad aim sometimes, you could keep streaming in camera charge and she'd miss you regardless).
fsvgm777
fsvgm777
Edit history:
fsvgm777: 2013-02-06 04:08:54 am
2013-02-06 03:55:37 am
Quote from ARF:
StB 5-7, 91.25
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26819
This scene confuses me.

Like really, the more I play it the less I understand this scene. Anyway, feels nice to hold all the scenes again (for how long will that last though?). Thanks for the motivation to play, fsvgm777.

Ah, I knew it was possible. Probably won't try to improve StB 5-7 and EX-1, though, since they look very well optimised.
ARF
ARF
Edit history:
ARF: 2013-02-13 03:05:35 pm
ARF: 2013-02-13 02:24:22 pm
ARF: 2013-02-13 01:13:27 pm
ARF: 2013-02-13 10:29:27 am
ARF: 2013-02-12 02:16:01 pm
ARF: 2013-02-12 10:24:53 am
ARF: 2013-02-12 09:09:18 am
ARF: 2013-02-11 05:20:07 pm
ARF: 2013-02-11 01:48:34 pm
ARF: 2013-02-11 09:06:36 am
2013-02-07 07:27:21 am
Welcome HELL
DS 10-5, 169.09
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26839
Going for higher charge regain on the first photo, seems like it was faster somehow. Broke charge for survival at one point, so a significantly better time is still possible.

I also kept trying the aforementioned 10-2 strategy, but only got to the final photo twice in like 100 attempts. Not entirely sure on this, but dodging the bullets during the final phase inside the laser safespot might be impossible in double focus. Regardless, doing it up close until the last photo should save a lot of time.

DS 4-5, 101.58
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26898
Using the harder strategy, a very small time gain, as expected. However, I believe that catching the third ring as it spawns for a noticable charge increase in the second photo is possible.

DS 2-3, 95.45
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26899

DS 7-4, 96.13
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26901
During the initial MotK thread days I thought that I'd never be able to beat Random's time in this scene. That notion seems so silly now looking back at it.

DS SP-6, 182.60
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26911
I was a bit too far away on the last dash. Otherwise it seemed quite good.

DS 12-7, 169.62
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26913
I finally did it! I had some really good early photos, as I was pushed back for the final photo I though I'd lost it, but it seems I had a sizeable lead up until then.

DS 10-1, 177.20
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26915
Finally finished a run with the faster strategy. Almost 2 seconds saved, and I even screwed up on the third photo. Might revisit this later, but man...

DS 3-1, 100.51
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26932
Aww...

DS 9-8, 196.30
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26933
This is a fun scene to speedrun for sure.

DS 8-5, 129.54
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26936
Decent improvement, though I played it a bit too much on the safe side. 130.xx might just be possible.

DS 10-4, 173.22
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26938
Wow, I can't believe no one bothered improving this until now.

DS 8-8, 92.85
http://replays.gensokyo.org/download.php?id=26939
This scene is a real puzzle, so many different things to consider. Still one of my favorite scenes, after all this...
ARF
2013-02-13 03:16:27 pm
Welcome HELL
And with that, sub 44:40 is achieved.

I was considering making a new submission on this benchmark, but I never expected it to happen so soon. While sub 44:30 certainly is achievable I'm not sure I'm willing to go through all the optimization needed for that. Because it's going to be a huge pain after this point unless even more big time savers are found.

Maybe I should start learning survival routes and go for some any% SS runs instead.