Torchlight (Planning)

Camo

2010-02-05 08:51:01 am

Spectator :)

I love this game. Good luck with the run. Smiley

bimanc

2010-02-09 09:31:21 am

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

I have a question about this run. Would be the "shared-stash dupe method" a new game+ cathegory? Or is it even allowed? I think it should be new game, since it only uses items acquired by the new character, but i don't know if SDA allows this trick.

Anyway, your videos are kinda good, Rane. Wink

Rane

2010-02-09 11:34:03 am

Amateur Runner

Quote from Camo:

I love this game. Good luck with the run. Smiley

Quote from bimanc:

I have a question about this run. Would be the "shared-stash dupe method" a new game+ cathegory? Or is it even allowed? I think it should be new game, since it only uses items acquired by the new character, but i don't know if SDA allows this trick.

Anyway, your videos are kinda good, Rane. Wink

Thanks guys, it´s appreciated!

I´m not sure what the "shared-stash dupe method" you mention is, the one that reg mentioned on the first page does not require the shared stash at all; I reckon that using this would not make it a new game+ run. (

To answer a few questions from the first page:

- Maps: The way this works in Torchlight is this: Each map consists of a number of pre-built segments (so-called chunks), they are all square and have exactly two connector pieces to other map parts.
This means that there is exactly one perfect path through each level; if the runner has memorized all the chunks he can avoid all dead ends on every dungeon level. An exception might be going into rooms that contain a large number of monsters, good item spawns or fishing holes.
For example in the "Necropolis" tileset (levels 5-8) there is a dead end that always contains a Lectern (which might contain the haste spell) and a triggered monster spawn (~4 melee skeletons, 12 skeleton archers).
It is possible to look at all available chunks in TorchED, the official modding tool.

- Differences between difficulty levels: There are 4 difficulty settings, Easy, Normal, Hard, Very Hard. On easy, the monsters deal only minimal damage and die very quickly (I suspect that they have almost zero armor/resistance on easy, and possibly lowered HP). Also, I have noticed that the stat modifiers on found items are far more powerful on Easy, e.g. finding gear with +60 HP, which might only have +20 HP on Very Hard. Also, on Hard and Very Hard there are some enemies which can one-shot the player if he lacks good equipment (Poison Bolt Spam, Charging enemies, etc. come to mind), which he most likely will in a speedrun. These attacks are mostly telegraphed and can be avoided, but that would cost precious time.

- Other classes than Destroyer: While the 2 other classes also have very potent AE attacks (Exploding Shot, Ember Lance etc.) they only become available at level 15, which is very late. Tough I don´t want to rule them out entirely, i could imagine someone who is skilled with Ember Bolt or Ricochet clearing out enemies just as fast as the Destroyer, altough maybe with a little more effort and skill on the runner´s side.

... and now for something completely different, I have recorded another attempt yesterday and I´m currently in the process of encoding/uploading it, i´ll edit this post with the link when it´s done.

Run details:
Real time: 1 hour 49 minutes (i think, didn´t time it exactly)
In-Game time: 1 hour 25 minutes 32 seconds

What went well:
+ Found boots with +5% movement very early
+ Vendor had an armor with +5% movement as well (and decent stats as well, nice)
+ Vendor had a 400 dps one-hand weapon, very nice.
+ Had a fear of running out of potions in the end, but managed to kill Ordrak with 2 Grand Healing pots left (with 2 picked up from Dragonkin during the battle ^^)

What went not so well:
+ Still no haste spells :-/
+ had a lack of identify scrolls about a third into the run
+ My inventory management is still sloooow, it especially annoys me when i watch it afterwards..
+ Got severly lost in 2 parts (Black Palace, Molten Prison), in fact, so badly that I lost at least a whole minute from these two blunders only. (Running in a circle while the exit of a segment was right in front of me in the beginning, god that looks dumb in the avi ^^)

An idea that I had for future attempts: let the pet pick up stuff, maybe even send it to town to sell stuff. Oh and, setting it to defensive mode instead of aggressive, starting at about the Tutara caverns the pet is too dumb to find it´s way back to me after attacking an enemy.. bad pathfinding I guess.

[quote="Camo"]
I love this game. Good luck with the run.  :)
[/quote]

[quote="bimanc"]
I have a question about this run. Would be the "shared-stash dupe method" a new game+ cathegory? Or is it even allowed? I think it should be new game, since it only uses items acquired by the new character, but i don't know if SDA allows this trick.

Anyway, your videos are kinda good, Rane.  ;)
[/quote]

Thanks guys, it´s appreciated!

I´m not sure what the "shared-stash dupe method" you mention is, the one that reg mentioned on the first page does not require the shared stash at all; I reckon that using this would not make it a new game+ run. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYd5EzTXk7g)

To answer a few questions from the first page:

- Maps: The way this works in Torchlight is this: Each map consists of a number of pre-built segments (so-called chunks), they are all square and have exactly two connector pieces to other map parts.
This means that there is exactly one perfect path through each level; if the runner has memorized all the chunks he can avoid all dead ends on every dungeon level. An exception might be going into rooms that contain a large number of monsters, good item spawns or fishing holes.
For example in the "Necropolis" tileset (levels 5-8) there is a dead end that always contains a Lectern (which might contain the haste spell) and a triggered monster spawn (~4 melee skeletons, 12 skeleton archers).
It is possible to look at all available chunks in TorchED, the official modding tool.

- Differences between difficulty levels: There are 4 difficulty settings, Easy, Normal, Hard, Very Hard. On easy, the monsters deal only minimal damage and die very quickly (I suspect that they have almost zero armor/resistance on easy, and possibly lowered HP). Also, I have noticed that the stat modifiers on found items are far more powerful on Easy, e.g. finding gear with +60 HP, which might only have +20 HP on Very Hard. Also, on Hard and Very Hard there are some enemies which can one-shot the player if he lacks good equipment (Poison Bolt Spam, Charging enemies, etc. come to mind), which he most likely will in a speedrun. These attacks are mostly telegraphed and can be avoided, but that would cost precious time.

- Other classes than Destroyer: While the 2 other classes also have very potent AE attacks (Exploding Shot, Ember Lance etc.) they only become available at level 15, which is very late. Tough I don´t want to rule them out entirely, i could imagine someone who is skilled with Ember Bolt or Ricochet clearing out enemies just as fast as the Destroyer, altough maybe with a little more effort and skill on the runner´s side.

... and now for something completely different, I have recorded another attempt yesterday and I´m currently in the process of encoding/uploading it, i´ll edit this post with the link when it´s done.

Run details:
Real time: 1 hour 49 minutes (i think, didn´t time it exactly)
In-Game time: 1 hour 25 minutes 32 seconds

What went well:
+ Found boots with +5% movement very early
+ Vendor had an armor with +5% movement as well (and decent stats as well, nice)
+ Vendor had a 400 dps one-hand weapon, very nice.
+ Had a fear of running out of potions in the end, but managed to kill Ordrak with 2 Grand Healing pots left (with 2 picked up from Dragonkin during the battle ^^)

What went not so well:
+ Still no haste spells :-/
+ had a lack of identify scrolls about a third into the run
+ My inventory management is still sloooow, it especially annoys me when i watch it afterwards..
+ Got severly lost in 2 parts (Black Palace, Molten Prison), in fact, so badly that I lost at least a whole minute from these two blunders only. (Running in a circle while the exit of a segment was right in front of me in the beginning, god that looks dumb in the avi ^^)

An idea that I had for future attempts: let the pet pick up stuff, maybe even send it to town to sell stuff. Oh and, setting it to defensive mode instead of aggressive, starting at about the Tutara caverns the pet is too dumb to find it´s way back to me after attacking an enemy.. bad pathfinding I guess.

bimanc

2010-02-09 11:50:37 am

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Rane, the shared-stash dupe is the following: put an item in the shared stash, save+exit, roll back the character file from backup, and then the item will be in the inventory, and the shared-stash, too. I'm not sure it is legal here. I'm asking this, because it can be a faster way to dupe items, in some cases.

Is the hardcore mode different from the softcore, apart the dying part? Different mods, etc.

Aren't the maps generated on the character creation? Or they are different everytime you enter a new level?

Would be a run on the unpatched version allowed, with using the shared-stash dupe and xp glitch? I'm thinking about this, and i already made some practice and planning. It would be great if SDA accepted such a run.

How would a run be timed? In game timer, or total video time?

Rane, your attempt is very good, but i noticed that you dropped items on the grounds, and later had a money problem. I think you should put the items you don't need into the pet's inventory, and send them back to town. It's faster, and you'll have more money.

Rane, the shared-stash dupe is the following: put an item in the shared stash, save+exit, roll back the character file from backup, and then the item will be in the inventory, and the shared-stash, too. I'm not sure it is legal here. I'm asking this, because it can be a faster way to dupe items, in some cases.

Is the hardcore mode different from the softcore, apart the dying part? Different mods, etc.

Aren't the maps generated on the character creation? Or they are different everytime you enter a new level?

Would be a run on the unpatched version allowed, with using the shared-stash dupe and xp glitch? I'm thinking about this, and i already made some practice and planning. It would be great if SDA accepted such a run.

How would a run be timed? In game timer, or total video time?

Rane, your attempt is very good, but i noticed that you dropped items on the grounds, and later had a money problem. I think you should put the items you don't need into the pet's inventory, and send them back to town. It's faster, and you'll have more money.

Rane

2010-02-09 05:59:29 pm

Amateur Runner

Quote from bimanc:

Rane, the shared-stash dupe is the following: put an item in the shared stash, save+exit, roll back the character file from backup, and then the item will be in the inventory, and the shared-stash, too. I'm not sure it is legal here. I'm asking this, because it can be a faster way to dupe items, in some cases.

Ah, didn´t know that one. Not sure about the rules on this, since basically you are messing with the savestates, while the shop-duping uses bugged in-game mechanics.

Quote from bimanc:

Is the hardcore mode different from the softcore, apart the dying part? Different mods, etc.

I´m not sure, it feels the same. Couldn´t find anything on the runic games forum either. :/
(The way "punishment" for death works in this game, death abuse might even be a viable strategy for defeating Ordrak when you are severely underlevelled)

Quote from bimanc:

Aren't the maps generated on the character creation? Or they are different everytime you enter a new level?

I´m not sure how this exactly works, however, I noticed that when you go back to an earlier dungeon via the waygate or the mine entrance, the areas are populated with monsters again, this seems to affect the dungeon a few levels (5?) up from the level you are currently on. I did not check if the map layout was different when I discovered that.

Quote from bimanc:

Would be a run on the unpatched version allowed, with using the shared-stash dupe and xp glitch? I'm thinking about this, and i already made some practice and planning. It would be great if SDA accepted such a run.

I think they will, this is from the official SDA FAQ: "If a game has been patched and there are multiple versions, it is recommended to use whichever version makes for the fastest run."

Quote from bimanc:

How would a run be timed? In game timer, or total video time?

Good question, that´s why I always post both times, and try to speed up my inventory management.

Quote from bimanc:

Rane, your attempt is very good, but i noticed that you dropped items on the grounds, and later had a money problem. I think you should put the items you don't need into the pet's inventory, and send them back to town. It's faster, and you'll have more money.

Agreed 100%, the only reason I drop all the stuff is because I used to stuff "potentially useful" stuff like gems in the pets inventory in my first 12 or so attempts. I need to unlearn that again.

Sorry for taking your post apart in this manner, but there where just so many points. :-)

(Not finished with uploading the stuff, had a friend over and we were doing a bit of song-writing for our band)

[quote="bimanc"]
Rane, the shared-stash dupe is the following: put an item in the shared stash, save+exit, roll back the character file from backup, and then the item will be in the inventory, and the shared-stash, too. I'm not sure it is legal here. I'm asking this, because it can be a faster way to dupe items, in some cases. 
[/quote]

Ah, didn´t know that one. Not sure about the rules on this, since basically you are messing with the savestates, while the shop-duping uses bugged in-game mechanics.

[quote="bimanc"]
Is the hardcore mode different from the softcore, apart the dying part? Different mods, etc. 
[/quote]

I´m not sure, it feels the same. Couldn´t find anything on the runic games forum either. :/
(The way "punishment" for death works in this game, death abuse might even be a viable strategy for defeating Ordrak when you are severely underlevelled)

[quote="bimanc"]

Aren't the maps generated on the character creation? Or they are different everytime you enter a new level? 
[/quote]

I´m not sure how this exactly works, however, I noticed that when you go back to an earlier dungeon via the waygate or the mine entrance, the areas are populated with monsters again, this seems to affect the dungeon a few levels (5?) up from the level you are currently on. I did not check if the map layout was different when I discovered that.

[quote="bimanc"]
Would be a run on the unpatched version allowed, with using the shared-stash dupe and xp glitch? I'm thinking about this, and i already made some practice and planning. It would be great if SDA accepted such a run.
[/quote]

I think they will, this is from the official SDA FAQ: "If a game has been patched and there are multiple versions, it is recommended to use whichever version makes for the fastest run."

[quote="bimanc"]
How would a run be timed? In game timer, or total video time? 
[/quote]

Good question, that´s why I always post both times, and try to speed up my inventory management.

[quote="bimanc"]
Rane, your attempt is very good, but i noticed that you dropped items on the grounds, and later had a money problem. I think you should put the items you don't need into the pet's inventory, and send them back to town. It's faster, and you'll have more money.
[/quote]

Agreed 100%, the only reason I drop all the stuff is because I used to stuff "potentially useful" stuff like gems in the pets inventory in my first 12 or so attempts. I need to unlearn that again.

Sorry for taking your post apart in this manner, but there where just so many points. :-)

(Not finished with uploading the stuff,  had a friend over and we were doing a bit of song-writing for our band)

TheVoid

2010-02-10 12:45:40 am

Quote from bimanc:

How would a run be timed? In game timer, or total video time?

I think it should be manually timed because otherwise you can just open the inventories and just take your sweet time to check/move stuff. That doesn't feel right, feels too cheap. You should ask mikwuyma about it.

Rane

2010-02-10 06:15:26 am

Amateur Runner

If I find the time later today I´ll record a little demo to show the way this works and send it to Mike to see what he thinks.

Also: Finished uploading the run i mentioned yesterday:
Unfortunately, anri-chan refused to encode part 3 in high quality, so for now it´s medium for that part.

Feel free to point out any errors that I make, especially those that I make more than once.

frod

Edit history:

frod: 2010-02-10 10:08:53 pm

2010-02-10 09:42:49 pm

Hi, i'd like to suggest trying the run with an alchemist if doing a segmented run. I did a very amateur unsegmented try during the holidays and finished the game on normal a lot faster than i had anticipated (roughly 3hours if i remember correctly). I can imagine that on easy by someone with skill patience and time it could be really really fast.

The best way i found was to go heal all+skeleton archers for both me and my pet, also haste and zombies/skeletons for my character. The first few levels were a little slow, but once i got to level 10 and i could up both adventurer and summon+defense spell masteries (i had stocked up a couple points from previous levels), the game flew by at really high speed. Overall plan was keep haste up as much as possible, summon archers in any pack (they have 5 second cooldown, last 15-20secs, spawn a lot in one cast, and WOW DAMAGE!!!), summon zombies or skeletons for champions/bosses (i preferred zombies since they spawn in 1 cast, + the heal was surprisingly useful at times), and let pet do the healing for the most part but help it sometimes with more heals. Until level 20 there was some rather regular mana potion usage, but after i put just a very few points in mana regen i never ran out again. I also had points in lightning and shield, although with a few good +hp items i think the shield wouldnt be necessary. I had planned to use lightning but it was a mistake in retrospect since it made for too many level 10 skills to spend and since i had not bothered to put that many points in bolt and imps, that was the reason the beginning wasnt so fast.

Gear is almost completely irrelevant going like this, besides getting enough hp to take a few hits.

Some other things i found too is that a regen gem in a weapon + a regen fish in an armor (i always found one in the sunken city) was what made me almost never have to use a heal potion. Thats something that might be useful in a fighter run too. Also, alt-tabbing out of the game and using taskinfo/taskmanager to end torchlight does not save the game, so thats an easy way to quickly get rid of a bad segment start.

Really, the big things with this character is high mana, strong and numerous summons (the upgraded archers in particular are completely absurd, but coupled with imps+golems+dog+zombies+dog archers..... yeah....), almost permanent haste, very little inventory management after a few levels, and little need to slow down to kill (just 1 archer spell + all the permanent summons + pet take out almost any group of enemies without the need to slow, for champions adding a pack of zombies and a couple bolts, bosses like champions, but add a few heals and run around a bit when boss targets character, repositioning archers as needed).

If anyone wants to give it a go i have a super good feeling about it! All thats needed is to do the boring segments when its time to buy the new spell levels, but otherwise its fast and completely unchallenging!

edit: also the archers and zombies can be positioned when summoned (they appear close to the mouse cursor). It's incredibly useful since summoning the archers close to the enemies mean they would aggro on them and i could usually run right through them!)

Hi, i'd like to suggest trying the run with an alchemist if doing a segmented run. I did a very amateur unsegmented try during the holidays and finished the game on normal a lot faster than i had anticipated (roughly 3hours if i remember correctly). I can imagine that on easy by someone with skill patience and time it could be really really fast.

The best way i found was to go heal all+skeleton archers for both me and my pet, also haste and zombies/skeletons for my character. The first few levels were a little slow, but once i got to level 10 and i could up both adventurer and summon+defense spell masteries (i had stocked up a couple points from previous levels), the game flew by at really high speed. Overall plan was keep haste up as much as possible, summon archers in any pack (they have 5 second cooldown, last 15-20secs, spawn a lot in one cast, and WOW DAMAGE!!!), summon zombies or skeletons for champions/bosses (i preferred zombies since they spawn in 1 cast, + the heal was surprisingly useful at times), and let pet do the healing for the most part but help it sometimes with more heals. Until level 20 there was some rather regular mana potion usage, but after i put just a very few points in mana regen i never ran out again. I also had points in lightning and shield, although with a few good +hp items i think the shield wouldnt be necessary. I had planned to use lightning but it was a mistake in retrospect since it made for too many level 10 skills to spend and since i had not bothered to put that many points in bolt and imps, that was the reason the beginning wasnt so fast.

Gear is almost completely irrelevant going like this, besides getting enough hp to take a few hits.

Some other things i found too is that a regen gem in a weapon + a regen fish in an armor (i always found one in the sunken city) was what made me almost never have to use a heal potion. Thats something that might be useful in a fighter run too. Also, alt-tabbing out of the game and using taskinfo/taskmanager to end torchlight does not save the game, so thats an easy way to quickly get rid of a bad segment start.

Really, the big things with this character is high mana, strong and numerous summons (the upgraded archers in particular are completely absurd, but coupled with imps+golems+dog+zombies+dog archers..... yeah....), almost permanent haste, very little inventory management after a few levels, and little need to slow down to kill (just 1 archer spell + all the permanent summons + pet take out almost any group of enemies without the need to slow, for champions adding a pack of zombies and a couple bolts, bosses like champions, but add a few heals and run around a bit when boss targets character, repositioning archers as needed).

If anyone wants to give it a go i have a super good feeling about it! All thats needed is to do the boring segments when its time to buy the new spell levels, but otherwise its fast and completely unchallenging!

edit: also the archers and zombies can be positioned when summoned (they appear close to the mouse cursor). It's incredibly useful since summoning the archers close to the enemies mean they would aggro on them and i could usually run right through them!)

bimanc

Edit history:

bimanc: 2010-02-11 10:58:06 am

2010-02-11 04:55:16 am

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Rane: i didn't watch your whole run, but it seems exceptional for a single-segment. A few days ago i thought it was segmented, that's why i pointed out errors. What do you think about going to town for the haste spell? I mean, the loading times are not counted in the run time, and a visit at the gem seller could take only 5 seconds, or something. Maybe you waste 4x5-6 seconds with this, but haste can save much more if you can buy one. Also, thanks for the answers, I'll check the map generator later.

Frod: Sounds good, maybe there'll be runs for each character at the same time.

Edit: Just finished my first successful segmented practice attempt. Final time was 51.5 minutes, and i lost maybe 3 minutes on leveling, 3-4 minutes on duping-buying, and a couple of minutes on the running part. I died several times during the last fight. I can confirm that the map layouts are generated on character creation, and they are static then. The game indeed repopulates the levels, except main quest bosses. I still need to optimize my leveling part.

Rane: i didn't watch your whole run, but it seems exceptional for a single-segment. A few days ago i thought it was segmented, that's why i pointed out errors. What do you think about going to town for the haste spell? I mean, the loading times are not counted in the run time, and a visit at the gem seller could take only 5 seconds, or something. Maybe you waste 4x5-6 seconds with this, but haste can save much more if you can buy one. Also, thanks for the answers, I'll check the map generator later.

Frod: Sounds good, maybe there'll be runs for each character at the same time.

Edit: Just finished my first successful segmented practice attempt. Final time was 51.5 minutes, and i lost maybe 3 minutes on leveling, 3-4 minutes on duping-buying, and a couple of minutes on the running part. I died several times during the last fight. I can confirm that the map layouts are generated on character creation, and they are static then. The game indeed repopulates the levels, except main quest bosses. I still need to optimize my leveling part.

Rane

Edit history:

Rane: 2010-02-12 10:34:02 am

2010-02-12 10:25:06 am

Amateur Runner

Okay, I just sent an email to mikwuyma, with this demonstration video:
Let´s see what he thinks. (I think I´m in favor of manual timing, pausing the game feels dirty.)

bimanc: Yes, i can see there being confusion about this. I am doing single-segment stuff, while Billay, who started the topic, was planning for a segmented run.
51.5 sounds amazing! Was that real-time or in-game time? Can you give us a little more information on the strategy you employed? (skills, items, level at the time of Ordrak kill, etc)

And yes, in my next attempts I will probably try to aquire a Haste scroll in town, as the drop-rate on these things is rather abysmal. I´m still contemplating which ranks of the spell are best. Haste 1 is probably not worth it, as it only gives you a speed boost of 12% (plus 1 for each level in Defensive spellcasting). Haste 2 and Haste 3 or Haste 2 and Haste 4 might be a suitable solution. (2 different ranks of seem to stack)
Plus at least 3 levels in Defensive spellcasting, so you don´t waste the time gained with recasting the thing.

Also, progress on the single-segment will be slow for the next few days, I got Mass Effect 2 and Borderlands in the mail yesterday. :-P

Edit: This might be helpful for the segmented run: http://www.torchlightarmory.com/
You can search for items with increased movement speed, among other things. I know I found the Toad King´s Call, a 1-hand weapon on 2 of my 16 run attempts so far, it´s a nice weapon for the middle sections of the game, with increased run-speed. I got it from the Ember Colossus and kept it until I found two 3xx dps weapons.

Okay, I just sent an email to mikwuyma, with this demonstration video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uslTxHlQqJg
Let´s see what he thinks. (I think I´m in favor of manual timing, pausing the game feels dirty.)

bimanc: Yes, i can see there being confusion about this. I am doing single-segment stuff, while Billay, who started the topic, was planning for a segmented run.
51.5 sounds amazing! Was that real-time or in-game time? Can you give us a little more information on the strategy you employed? (skills, items, level at the time of Ordrak kill, etc)

And yes, in my next attempts I will probably try to aquire a Haste scroll in town, as the drop-rate on these things is rather abysmal. I´m still contemplating which ranks of the spell are best. Haste 1 is probably not worth it, as it only gives you a speed boost of 12% (plus 1 for each level in Defensive spellcasting). Haste 2 and Haste 3 or Haste 2 and Haste 4 might be a suitable solution. (2 different ranks of seem to stack)
Plus at least 3 levels in Defensive spellcasting, so you don´t waste the time gained with recasting the thing.

Also, progress on the single-segment will be slow for the next few days, I got Mass Effect 2 and Borderlands in the mail yesterday. :-P

Edit: This might be helpful for the segmented run: http://www.torchlightarmory.com/
You can search for items with increased movement speed, among other things. I know I found the Toad King´s Call, a 1-hand weapon on 2 of my 16 run attempts so far, it´s a nice weapon for the middle sections of the game, with increased run-speed. I got it from the Ember Colossus and kept it until I found two 3xx dps weapons.

mikwuyma

2010-02-13 03:22:28 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Rane, I just saw your Torchlight video, and unless if I'm missing something, I don't really see the problem with using the in-game timer.

Yes, the inventories and such will be slower, but none of the movement or gameplay will be affected. Every GBA Castlevania game after Circle of the Moon doesn't track time in the inventory screen, and the gameplay and inventory management hasn't really suffered for it.

Also, I really don't want to time a PC game, unless if I really have to.

bimanc

2010-02-14 09:07:13 am

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Rane: Thanks, i still have to do a lot to optimize the leveling. Here's my raw plan:

-kill enough enemies on the first level of the mine to acquire lvl 2. Use the bugged skill (i don't remember the name right now) to glitch-level up. Usually i'm around lvl 16 after i kill Brink. Then continue the killing until lvl 25, which should happen before Overseer, but preferably the earliest possible.
-I visit the town, spend all attribute points to dex, and put points to adventurer (actually i max this during leveling), critical, hamstring, that lvl 25 archer skill, and defensive spellcasting.
-dupe money/potions, i usually start with 100/100 giant potions, and buy a haste spell. At lvl 25, a 5th level haste is possible, maybe higher. I don't care about items at all, especially frw items, since hamstring gives 60+ frw, and lvl 5 haste with rank 10 def mastery gives ~50 frw.
-after this, i simply run through everything. Hamstring's dot kills almost everything, and the rest dies by that archer skill. The only problem is the last boss, it can oneshot me (i'm ~lvl 27-28 at the end), and the fight is quite long.

The time i mentioned was in-game timer, but i rarely paused the game.

In a ss run, getting a haste is a pain. It can be manipulated easily in a segmented, because i noticed that everything changes (enemiy spawn, vendor items, etc.) on map loading (when you enter town, or a different map level).

Mike: Would the shared-stash dupe be allowed? Basically rolling back the save files.

Rane: Thanks, i still have to do a lot to optimize the leveling. Here's my raw plan:

-kill enough enemies on the first level of the mine to acquire lvl 2. Use the bugged skill (i don't remember the name right now) to glitch-level up. Usually i'm around lvl 16 after i kill Brink. Then continue the killing until lvl 25, which should happen before Overseer, but preferably the earliest possible.
-I visit the town, spend all attribute points to dex, and put points to adventurer (actually i max this during leveling), critical, hamstring, that lvl 25 archer skill, and defensive spellcasting. 
-dupe money/potions, i usually start with 100/100 giant potions, and buy a haste spell. At lvl 25, a 5th level haste is possible, maybe higher. I don't care about items at all, especially frw items, since hamstring gives 60+ frw, and lvl 5 haste with rank 10 def mastery gives ~50 frw. 
-after this, i simply run through everything. Hamstring's dot kills almost everything, and the rest dies by that archer skill. The only problem is the last boss, it can oneshot me (i'm ~lvl 27-28 at the end), and the fight is quite long.

The time i mentioned was in-game timer, but i rarely paused the game.

In a ss run, getting a haste is a pain. It can be manipulated easily in a segmented, because i noticed that everything changes (enemiy spawn, vendor items, etc.) on map loading (when you enter town, or a different map level).

[b]Mike: Would the shared-stash dupe be allowed? Basically rolling back the save files. [/b]

mikwuyma

2010-02-14 02:28:08 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

What is the shared-stash dupe?

bimanc

2010-02-14 02:32:42 pm

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Have an item in the char's inventory, make a backup save file, put the item in the shared-stash (it is accessible for all chars, and has a separate save file), then roll back the char file, and the item will be in the inventory, and in the shared-stash, too.

Also, if it was allowed, i'd like to know about the following: there's a skill which lowers vendor prices. What if i spend points in it, buy items cheaper, put them in the shared-stash, then roll back the char file, spend the skill points in other skills, and pick out the items from the shared-stash?

bimanc

Edit history:

bimanc: 2010-02-16 09:26:30 am

2010-02-15 06:47:15 pm

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Umm. can i kindly ask for the reply of my question about the shared-stash dupe? I actually started to record this run, and i'm at that point where i want to use that.

Anyway, i recorded the run up to the sister's level, and i reached lvl 25. The in-game time is 14:4x, so i could reach my goal, a sub 15 min leveling. The early segments are not perfect though, i simply have no idea what would be the best method for glitch leveling. So if someone beats my run easily with a better leveling, i'm okay with that. Now i only need a sub 5 min buying sequence, and a sub 20 minute endgame. 8)

Edit: First part of leveling is up:

Second comes later.

Rane

2010-02-17 03:22:56 pm

Amateur Runner

Hey bimanc, just watched the first part of your run. That xp glitch is just totally broken. :-) Nice use of Ricochet in the first level as well!
Two things: You can cancel the cutscene after brink dies (Syl approaching and talking to you) by pressing ESC. Also, do champions give a greater XP reward with the xp glitch? If not, fighting the rock troll champion at about 7 minutes of the video might be skipped.

I had two more attempts at a single segment run, but the game was not very kind to me. I tried out the strategy you suggested, going to town several times to try and get a Haste scroll. There were two things I found out that make this very awkward:
1. In town, the timer does NOT stop when having two panels open, which means looking at the shops consumes time as well. (Although this is not so bad, considering the next problem)
2. This is the big one: The shops do not restock their equipment when you spend a very short time in town. I made a town trip after every levelup and dungeon-level, to get a Haste scroll, and the vendors changed their inventory only twice in about 10 trips. This was really aggravating, seeing them still offer the stuff that *I* sold them 4 town trips ago, and not having changed their inventory at all. :-/ After some research I found out that the vendor inventories are only updated when you spent at least 30 seconds in town on your *previous* trip. This totally sucks for a single segment run, as going to town 4 times to get a Haste scroll would consume 2 minutes...

Hey bimanc, just watched the first part of your run. That xp glitch is just totally broken. :-) Nice use of Ricochet in the first level as well!
Two things: You can cancel the cutscene after brink dies (Syl approaching and talking to you) by pressing ESC. Also, do champions give a greater XP reward with the xp glitch? If not, fighting the rock troll champion at about 7 minutes of the video might be skipped.

I had two more attempts at a single segment run, but the game was not very kind to me. I tried out the strategy you suggested, going to town several times to try and get a Haste scroll. There were two things I found out that make this very awkward:
1. In town, the timer does NOT stop when having two panels open, which means looking at the shops consumes time as well. (Although this is not so bad, considering the next problem)
2. This is the big one: The shops do not restock their equipment when you spend a very short time in town. I made a town trip after every levelup and dungeon-level, to get a Haste scroll, and the vendors changed their inventory only twice in about 10 trips. This was really aggravating, seeing them still offer the stuff that *I* sold them 4 town trips ago, and not having changed their inventory at all. :-/ After some research I found out that the vendor inventories are only updated when you spent at least 30 seconds in town on your *previous* trip. This totally sucks for a single segment run, as going to town 4 times to get a Haste scroll would consume 2 minutes...

bimanc

2010-02-17 04:38:22 pm

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Thanks Rane, actually i recorded the run up to the duping-buying part, so i only have to run through the rest of the game. But, i have to wait for the answer from Mike, because i don't know if the dupe method is allowed.

Strangely, i can't cancel a few cutscenes in the game, like that one you mentioned. Maybe i could if i pressed esc the earliest possible, but i always forget about the cutscene. You can notice that i cancel the cutscenes a bit later.

Champions are the unique monsters? If yes, then surely, they give multiple levels in the early part of the game. In fact they can give a few levels if they are close to your level. Because i'm 10+ level higher than them, they give not that huge xp later. That's why i used a trick to level up faster, and get a haste spell easier. At lvl 22, i went back to town, accepted the quest from Hatch manipulating a lvl 4 haste as a reward, and manipulated a champion in the beginning of the dungeon. It gave me the required 3 levels. Also, i noticed something interesting. It seems to me that the xp glitch works with other DOTs, too, at least with Hamstring, but the amount of glitched xp depends on the damage of the skill. It sounds insane, but when i used a lvl 2 needle arc for the last champion, it gave me 2 levels, when i used a lvl1 one, it gave 3 levels. Also, when i put many points into dex to use a nice weapon, the damage of the lvl1 needle arc went higher, and the result: 2 levels.

I experienced the two problems you mentioned. That's why i don't want to use the normal dupe method, since it takes a lot of time, and the timer doesn't stop. However, i think the gem seller changed its offers after 3 fast trips (6-7 seconds in town, and almost 0 in the dungeon), and also changed the items after 2 slower (10+seconds in town, and 6-8 seconds in the dungeon), i couldn't figure out how it really works, though, thats why i manipulated a haste from the quest reward. I suppose it's not a really usable method in a ss run.

Btw, the in-game timer at the last segment i recorded is ~16 minutes, and i think it's possible to finish the rest of the game in under 20 minutes.

Thanks Rane, actually i recorded the run up to the duping-buying part, so i only have to run through the rest of the game. But, i have to wait for the answer from Mike, because i don't know if the dupe method is allowed.

Strangely, i can't cancel a few cutscenes in the game, like that one you mentioned. Maybe i could if i pressed esc the earliest possible, but i always forget about the cutscene. You can notice that i cancel the cutscenes a bit later.

Champions are the unique monsters? If yes, then surely, they give multiple levels in the early part of the game. In fact they can give a few levels if they are close to your level. Because i'm 10+ level higher than them, they give not that huge xp later. That's why i used a trick to level up faster, and get a haste spell easier. At lvl 22, i went back to town, accepted the quest from Hatch manipulating a lvl 4 haste as a reward, and manipulated a champion in the beginning of the dungeon. It gave me the required 3 levels. Also, i noticed something interesting. It seems to me that the xp glitch works with other DOTs, too, at least with Hamstring, but the amount of glitched xp depends on the damage of the skill. It sounds insane, but when i used a lvl 2 needle arc for the last champion, it gave me 2 levels, when i used a lvl1 one, it gave 3 levels. Also, when i put many points into dex to use a nice weapon, the damage of the lvl1 needle arc went higher, and the result: 2 levels.

I experienced the two problems you mentioned. That's why i don't want to use the normal dupe method, since it takes a lot of time, and the timer doesn't stop. However, i think the gem seller changed its offers after 3 fast trips (6-7 seconds in town, and almost 0 in the dungeon), and also changed the items after 2 slower (10+seconds in town, and 6-8 seconds in the dungeon), i couldn't figure out how it really works, though, thats why i manipulated a haste from the quest reward. I suppose it's not a really usable method in a ss run.

Btw, the in-game timer at the last segment i recorded is ~16 minutes, and i think it's possible to finish the rest of the game in under 20 minutes.

bimanc

2010-02-18 04:09:14 pm

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

No progress, but i got Mike's answer. Surprisingly, he allows the shared-stash dupe and save file rollback. I'm not sure it is real, though.

I uploaded a second part of the run to yt (it's being processed now):

Also, here's a small vid with the shopping+duping segments. I might redo this, becuase i didn't roll back the character file, only the stash file, so the game can track the in-game time correctly. But it would be faster with character rollback. What do you think/Any suggestions?

Attachment:

Torchlight_dupe_HQ.mp4

gia

2010-02-18 06:39:06 pm

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

if rolling back is allowed then do whats faster, just have a video showing your "final time" for the chars that get rolled back so mike will have to subtract the times and add the difference that was rolled back Tongue

if you dont hell be timing manually those sections

NMS

2010-02-18 11:50:11 pm

It seems weird to me to include and benefit from segments after the point you roll back to. It makes the run discontinuous in a sense. Other games that back up and roll back saves use it only to redo sections, not to have multiple segments starting from the same game state, as far as I know.

Also, would it make sense to have an NG+ category for this game? Could you then just put whatever you wanted from other characters in the shared stash?

bimanc

2010-02-19 03:14:37 am

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

Thanks for the replies, guys.

I'm still pming with Mike, because it's hard to decide and confusing. Imho, the fastest method, rolling back the character save file and the stadsh file, too, should be banned. That causes inconsistency, and the run should be timed manually. The method i used is consistent, except that part where the potions are back in the stash after i pick them out. But at least the timer is right.

I think there could be a NG+ cathegory, but i want to avoid that, because that would mean a lot of items having found before the run. I think it's more interesting with a fresh character.

Maybe i should just dupe manually? That looks bad and takes a lot of times. Sad

Rane

2010-02-27 09:03:26 am

Amateur Runner

Hey guys, just checking in to say that I´m still interested in doing a single segment run of this game, Borderlands and ME2 are finished now. :-)

I don´t know how fast I can produce something new tough, starting a full-time job again next week, and starting a band is also taking away a bit from my gaming time, but I still very much want to get something like a 1:10 single segment run together, maybe even submit it.

Cheers,
Rane

bimanc

2010-03-01 01:33:27 pm

Lay waste to everything...but I still love SDA!

That's great, but an 1:10 ss run would be godly, even sub- 1:20, imho.

Anyway, i just realized that same spells with different levels stack on each other. I don't know if this is common knowlegde, but it can change a segmented run completely. Now i don't know what to do. What spells would be good for a run in this game? Preferably defensive spells. Haste is trivial, but it's already hard to control the character with only hamstring and a lvl 4 haste. I tried it with lvl4 + lvl5 haste, and it looks insane, but it's impossible to not bump into literally everything on the way, it's too fast (for me).

I'm also thinking about elemental protection, since the only problem in the run is Ordrak's cold spell (i assume it's a cold spell). How does resist work in this game? The character page says: amount of damage absorbed. Is it a percentage, or a certain amount? If not a percentage, then it's useless, because it's hard to reach 100, and Ordrak can do 1200 damage easily.

I think i stick to the basic plan for now. I don't want to re-record the whole run. Actually, i won't have time for this later.

Oh, and Mike allowed the stash dupe i used in my video, but not the one which makes the in-game timer inconsistent.

That's great, but an 1:10 ss run would be godly, even sub- 1:20, imho.

Anyway, i just realized that same spells with different levels stack on each other. I don't know if this is common knowlegde, but it can change a segmented run completely. Now i don't know what to do. What spells would be good for a run in this game? Preferably defensive spells. Haste is trivial, but it's already hard to control the character with only hamstring and a lvl 4 haste. I tried it with lvl4 + lvl5 haste, and it looks insane, but it's impossible to not bump into literally everything on the way, it's too fast (for me).

I'm also thinking about elemental protection, since the only problem in the run is Ordrak's cold spell (i assume it's a cold spell). How does resist work in this game? The character page says: amount of damage absorbed. Is it a percentage, or a certain amount? If not a percentage, then it's useless, because it's hard to reach 100, and Ordrak can do 1200 damage easily.

I think i stick to the basic plan for now. I don't want to re-record the whole run. Actually, i won't have time for this later.

Oh, and Mike allowed the stash dupe i used in my video, but not the one which makes the in-game timer inconsistent.

Otticon1121

2010-03-01 05:36:36 pm

My picture looks weird on here..so...

Hi there!
I just wanted to say that I look forward to seeing this run.

Rane

Edit history:

Rane: 2010-03-01 05:44:29 pm

2010-03-01 05:37:58 pm

Amateur Runner

Hey bimanc,

I actually mentioned the spell stacking on page 3. :-)
Tough the only time I found two Haste spells they were rank 1 and 2, but still, it made a noticable difference. 4 and 5 might be harsh, I don´t even want to think about something crazy like 4, 5 and 6. :-) (I know it won´t work due to level req of the 6, but just imagine it ^^)
Not sure about the other defensive spells, maybe Retribution? (Heal All and Heal Self suck, altough Heal Self can decrease the amount of potions needed by a bit, not sure if that matters in a segmented run)

(Typing this in kind of a haste, so just tell me when I forgot something)
Resistance and armor in this game work quite differently from Diablo.

The armor value that is displayed on the right of your Defense stat is the amount that is substracted from all (physical?) damage you take (It´s 2 values, something like 50-100, so there´s still randomness involved)

Resist value works the same way, if you have 50 fire resist (on the stat screen) you take 50 less damage from each fire attack. If I recall correctly the resist stat on the stat screen is calculated by summing up all your resist [element] from your gear, and then appliying an additional x%, which is your Defense stat. I am not exactly sure where the Elemental Protection spell comes in here, i guess it´s this:

(gear-resists + elemental protection-resist) * (100 + Defense stat) / 100

So to lower the Ice damage from Ordrak to a reasonable amount you would have to go for a combination of good resist items AND a lot of points put into the defense stat.
(On Very Hard I have started to go 2 points main stat 3 points defense stat, just to be able to survive.)
This might actually be possible to achieve on easy difficulty, if you manipulate some good +resist gear (I have seen 45 resist on single items on easy)

Also yeah, after 3 attempts yesterday I came to think that yes, 1:10 might be pretty much insane, at least with the strategies I have employed so far. But, I have improved my personal best to 1:24:39, and that was a run where many things went very wrong... but I could buy a Haste rank 3 pretty early.
What I have changed in my strategy so far:
- Use mana much more aggressively
- Make town trips after dungeon level 5 (around the time my first load of potions runs out, and also the time I could possibly buy and equip a Haste I or II)
- Stay in town for roughly 30 seconds and do some of the necessary inventory manipulation in that time (at least 25s of that is lost time, unfortunately)
- Repeat until I get a Haste spell
- Save up a few of the Skill-points, when I get a Haste spell they go to Defensive Spell Mastery, otherwise they go into the damage-increasing passives some time between Molten Prison and Black Palace
- Completely different skill point distribution, I now max Dual Wielding and Adventurer, and the rest goes into whatever I feel necessary during the run (sometimes Armor Expertise, to equip really good stuff 1-2 levels earlier)

The problem with that strategy is that all the time I save through levelling faster (aggressive mana use, Adventurer) and travelling faster (in case of Haste spell), I lose while "idling" in town...

Fun Anecdote: One of my 3 runs yesterday looked very promising around the time I got to the Dwarven Ruins, I already had a 375 DPS weapon in my inventory (needed level 21, I was 19), with 2 sockets to fill the gems from Medea in. I chucked it into an enchantment shrine, guess what happened. :-)
After that I didn´t find another good weapon and couldn´t oneshot many of the enemies in the Black Palace, which slowed me down far too much..

Sorry if this post feels disjointed, I wrote it over the day between doing other things. :-)

Edit:
And I forgot something:
Yesterday I had another idea for the single-segment run:
As soon as I enter the dungeon I could open a TP and check the spell vendor, if she has a haste 2 or 3 I could immediately re-enter the dungeon and start fighting and saving up the money for the scroll. If she doesn´t sell it -> restart the run.
This depends a bit on when the shops open, when you run past them in the beginning they all have the "!" above their heads and you can just talk to them. Maybe they even open up after the fight outside the mine? Gotta check that tomorrow if I find the time.

Hey bimanc,

I actually mentioned the spell stacking on page 3. :-)
Tough the only time I found two Haste spells they were rank 1 and 2, but still, it made a noticable difference. 4 and 5 might be harsh, I don´t even want to think about something crazy like 4, 5 and 6. :-) (I know it won´t work due to level req of the 6, but just imagine it ^^)
Not sure about the other defensive spells, maybe Retribution? (Heal All and Heal Self suck, altough Heal Self can decrease the amount of potions needed by a bit, not sure if that matters in a segmented run)

(Typing this in kind of a haste, so just tell me when I forgot something)
Resistance and armor in this game work quite differently from Diablo.

The armor value that is displayed on the right of your Defense stat is the amount that is substracted from all (physical?) damage you take (It´s 2 values, something like 50-100, so there´s still randomness involved)

Resist value works the same way, if you have 50 fire resist (on the stat screen) you take 50 less damage from each fire attack. If I recall correctly the resist stat on the stat screen is calculated by summing up all your resist [element] from your gear, and then appliying an additional x%, which is your Defense stat. I am not exactly sure where the Elemental Protection spell comes in here, i guess it´s this:

(gear-resists + elemental protection-resist) * (100 + Defense stat) / 100

So to lower the Ice damage from Ordrak to a reasonable amount you would have to go for a combination of good resist items AND a lot of points put into the defense stat.
(On Very Hard I have started to go 2 points main stat 3 points defense stat, just to be able to survive.)
This might actually be possible to achieve on easy difficulty, if you manipulate some good +resist gear (I have seen 45 resist on single items on easy)

Also yeah, after 3 attempts yesterday I came to think that yes, 1:10 might be pretty much insane, at least with the strategies I have employed so far. But, I have improved my personal best to 1:24:39, and that was a run where many things went very wrong... but I could buy a Haste rank 3 pretty early.
What I have changed in my strategy so far:
- Use mana much more aggressively
- Make town trips after dungeon level 5 (around the time my first load of potions runs out, and also the time I could possibly buy and equip a Haste I or II)
- Stay in town for roughly 30 seconds and do some of the necessary inventory manipulation in that time (at least 25s of that is lost time, unfortunately)
- Repeat until I get a Haste spell
- Save up a few of the Skill-points, when I get a Haste spell they go to Defensive Spell Mastery, otherwise they go into the damage-increasing passives some time between Molten Prison and Black Palace
- Completely different skill point distribution, I now max Dual Wielding and Adventurer, and the rest goes into whatever I feel necessary during the run (sometimes Armor Expertise, to equip really good stuff 1-2 levels earlier)

The problem with that strategy is that all the time I save through levelling faster (aggressive mana use, Adventurer) and travelling faster (in case of Haste spell), I lose while "idling" in town...

Fun Anecdote: One of my 3 runs yesterday looked very promising around the time I got to the Dwarven Ruins, I already had a 375 DPS weapon in my inventory (needed level 21, I was 19), with 2 sockets to fill the gems from Medea in. I chucked it into an enchantment shrine, guess what happened. :-)
After that I didn´t find another good weapon and couldn´t oneshot many of the enemies in the Black Palace, which slowed me down far too much..

Sorry if this post feels disjointed, I wrote it over the day between doing other things. :-)

Edit:
And I forgot something:
Yesterday I had another idea for the single-segment run:
As soon as I enter the dungeon I could open a TP and check the spell vendor, if she has a haste 2 or 3 I could immediately re-enter the dungeon and start fighting and saving up the money for the scroll. If she doesn´t sell it -> restart the run.
This depends a bit on when the shops open, when you run past them in the beginning they all have the "!" above their heads and you can just talk to them. Maybe they even open up after the fight outside the mine? Gotta check that tomorrow if I find the time.