Tomb Raider Legend. (Sort of) Finished 54:43

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-08-22 01:57:36 am

2007-05-15 08:16:18 pm

I decided to make a new thread, just in case the "generic" TR thread gets overlooked by anyone only interested in Legend (and therefore ignores the other thread, since 99% of it is on the older games).

It's time for the curse to go down Smiley

. I've now "got" the PC version of Legend and I've recently been enjoying the game more than I have for awhile for some reason (perhaps because AE supposedly fixes the main flaws it has, so I can enjoy it for what it is, rather than worry about its implications on the future of the series).

I was going to do at least a little in "secret" but decided against it just in case there's a few things that haven't been documented yet. My main resource is this: http://www.tombraiderhub.com/tr7/timetrials/index.html although there are a few techniques by Gandarufu (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Gandarufu) that haven't been documented there (which I'm also using).

Since 99% of the work is already done for me (as far as I know), I'm hoping to do this run very quickly so it won't divert from TR1 much, although I may have underestimated it slightly.

The run is being done from-scratch on Tomb Raider difficulty. This means that I probably can't beat the record on Peru (I know I can beat the rest that I've heard of), since that's already had great times with a 100% file on time trial mode (which corresponds to medium and therefore has easier enemies as well as the upgrades).

Hopefully I'll have Bolivia done soon.

Thread title:

I decided to make a new thread, just in case the "generic" TR thread gets overlooked by anyone only interested in Legend (and therefore ignores the other thread, since 99% of it is on the older games).

It's time for the curse to go down :) . I've now "got" the PC version of Legend and I've recently been enjoying the game more than I have for awhile for some reason (perhaps because AE supposedly fixes the main flaws it has, so I can enjoy it for what it is, rather than worry about its implications on the future of the series).

I was going to do at least a little in "secret" but decided against it just in case there's a few things that haven't been documented yet. My main resource is this: http://www.tombraiderhub.com/tr7/timetrials/index.html although there are a few techniques by Gandarufu (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Gandarufu) that haven't been documented there (which I'm also using).

Since 99% of the work is already done for me (as far as I know), I'm hoping to do this run very quickly so it won't divert from TR1 much, although I may have underestimated it slightly.

The run is being done from-scratch on Tomb Raider difficulty. This means that I probably can't beat the record on Peru (I know I can beat the rest that I've heard of), since that's already had great times with a 100% file on time trial mode (which corresponds to medium and therefore has easier enemies as well as the upgrades).

Hopefully I'll have Bolivia done soon.

AjAX

2007-05-15 08:20:32 pm

Can't wait!!

Don't forget tombrunner Wink

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-15 08:25:52 pm

2007-05-15 08:23:54 pm

Quote:

Don't forget tombrunner Wink

Already there Smiley

.

As another thing, can anyone list the best times they've heard of for each level? Tomb Runner only has recorded runs, but there are also lots of other great times around that haven't been recorded, I'm namely interested in Peru, since like I said I've heard great times but can't remember what they actually are (something around 13 minutes from what I recall).

I guess it won't really matter since I just have to get as good a run as possible with as many tricks as I can, but it's nice to know what benchmarks there are.

BTW, I am using the left roll bug and "safe falling" with the pistols.

Ewil

Edit history:

Ewil: 2007-05-15 08:31:26 pm

2007-05-15 08:28:12 pm

Heh, I would never think you're actually going to do this.

Will you use left-roll glitch ?

I wonder what time you can get on Peru. I personally wasn't able to do it faster than 13:3x on TR difficulty (easy makes it like 30 seconds faster or so).

As for the other levels...good luck beating current records.

Oh and pls make 60fps version Smiley

EDIT: I've heard G-Paul made Peru in 12:39, which seems quite impossible. When I was searching TR forums for some starting times, I've always encountered many impressive times, but then it turned out that the person used one-shot kill cheat or sth.

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-15 08:43:21 pm

2007-05-15 08:40:37 pm

Yes, I'm using the glitch, on that note, the left roll pretty much requires 60fps to be usable, so that's a given Wink

.

As a small thing that was an issue in an earlier TRL thread: Talking in terms of each route being perfectly executed, I'm pretty sure the super-hard way in Ghana is a few seconds faster than Laraman's FAR easier way, but the difference in speed is so small (in comparison to difficulty) that I'll use the easier way. I'm pretty sure it'll balance out anyway, since that means I will be much less accepting of mistakes later on in that level.

Ewil

Edit history:

Ewil: 2007-05-15 08:45:45 pm

2007-05-15 08:45:03 pm

Here's the thread with all times, although it's several months old: http://www.tombraiderforums.com/showthread.php?t=70928

I don't believe Tomb Raider Master's times and as you can see I'm not the only one Smiley

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-15 08:55:32 pm

2007-05-15 08:51:25 pm

TRM was open about the fact he used cheats (although that makes the Bolivia redux time a bit egregious, since you should be able to do it in about thirty seconds like that). A few are kind of crazy considering the non-cheat times, but I guess I'll see Wink

.

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-16 03:02:51 am

2007-05-16 02:23:05 am

I've got a Bolivia 6:18, the bit outside the temple kind of sucks ass and the difference seems very small considering all the new shortcuts I use.

However, I did another couple of runs that appeared much smoother than this one, yet came out a few seconds slower, so I'm going to have to assume my luck was with me in this one (and that the difference in Tomb Raider-From scratch and Time Trial-100% really is that big when it comes to the final battle). Anyway, for now I just want to do a Legend run that beats pretty much all the current records; perfection can come later (namely, when a "normal" run is up and time trial is allowed Smiley

) .

Actually, I get the feeling there may be some timing differences between the normal game and time trials (like that cutscenes count)... I'll have to test that sometime later.

Edit: I believe temptation is calling me to give it another shot, but I'll see how I feel tomorrow (and after checking out the encoded video).

Ewil

2007-05-16 08:10:34 am

The final battle is somewhat luck dependant. When I was running this level, I've always done like perfectly-looking run, but it always ended up with 6.27+, but then I got the 6:24, which has surprisingly like 10 seconds of mistakes, but the end was lucky, so it was actually faster. It's done on Time-Trial diff btw.

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-16 12:35:21 pm

2007-05-16 11:08:31 am

Okay, screw that, I just got 6:08!!

Apparently the final fight really is a huge factor in this, as this doesn't look much better than some other runs I did, but they got far worse times (the final battle went about as perfect as it possibly could here).

Video up later.

Note that since this is a continuous run there is a bit of equipment planning, and I didn't pick up any medikits this time (so I only have one for the next level), but the bike part should make that a non-issue. I was also hoping to pick up a rifle before the final cutscene, but I couldn't. The only things I'm worried about in that regard is Tokomoto-Rutland (I need grenades for both fights, and all fights in between are optional, so I may have a kill a few things), and having enough medikits for England (there are damage shortcuts in the first part of the area).

Ewil

2007-05-16 11:22:47 am

Nice, can't wait to see the new shortcuts.

Wouldn't be better to make it IL run for future improvements ? But if the item collecting is important, then I guess not.

CannibalK9

Edit history:

CannibalK9: 2007-05-16 01:23:51 pm

2007-05-16 01:23:27 pm

give me your eyes!!!

Wow, incredible Bolivia time. I agonised for far too long over this game and even with near-perfection I couldn't come close to the best times due to tricks I couldn't fathom and no one who seemed obliged to tell me (although I discovered several myself).

It's great to see this finally being done, and I'm looking forward to seeing how far this game can be pushed with a video rather than a figure and no explanation. There's a good chance I'll have a go at some IL time trial runs too in the future.

Best of luck!

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-20 03:13:49 pm

2007-05-16 02:04:15 pm

If you start from a new game individual levels isn't possible, I guess I could finish the game (with no secrets) and do it from there, but if you do it on Tomb Raider rather Time Trial I think the game remembers what you had when you got there normally, so it's easier to just do it from a new game for verification purposes.

Here it is: (Edit: removed because it sucks)

The only mistakes are some dodgy stuff outside the temple (although it's very smooth compared to the horror stories I usually encounter there), the dive at the water not done and a couple of cracks not grabbed completely optimally (these last two mistakes are probably only a couple of seconds at most). The limit for the way I'm playing is probably around 6:04.

The only trick I didn't get from either the guide or Gandarufu (or Ewil's run of the level) is the slope grab for the chain at the box puzzle room, I think I found that back at the demo, but didn't realise it could be done consistently. There's an even faster way where you jump directly to the other side from the slope, but I couldn't work out a consistent way to do that (as opposed to this, which works every time if you keep at the top of the slide).

The way you draw your guns if you hold the mouse button for more than a millisecond longer than needed when quitting a cutscene is annoying as hell.

You can left roll up the first waterfall after the boulder and skip the cutscene+guard, but it seems to be pretty much the same speed due to how hard it is and the positioning it needs. Also, you can skip the cutscene+guards after the gold plate by leaping over the wall in some weird way, but it seems slower than skipping through the cutscene and is far harder to do.

At the end of the level I save after a second or two into Peru, but when you load it goes back to the start of the level anyway, so I won't lose time.

Edit: One other funny thing about this run; part way through my alarm clock went off for some reason and I didn't have time to go over and turn it off, so I had to do the majority of this with it blaring at me. Maybe I should try that again Smiley

.

If you start from a new game individual levels isn't possible, I guess I could finish the game (with no secrets) and do it from there, but if you do it on Tomb Raider rather Time Trial I think the game remembers what you had when you got there normally, so it's easier to just do it from a new game for verification purposes.

Here it is: (Edit: removed because it sucks)

The only mistakes are some dodgy stuff outside the temple (although it's very smooth compared to the horror stories I usually encounter there), the dive at the water not done and a couple of cracks not grabbed completely optimally (these last two mistakes are probably only a couple of seconds at most). The limit for the way I'm playing is probably around 6:04.

The only trick I didn't get from either the guide or Gandarufu (or Ewil's run of the level) is the slope grab for the chain at the box puzzle room, I think I found that back at the demo, but didn't realise it could be done consistently. There's an even faster way where you jump directly to the other side from the slope, but I couldn't work out a consistent way to do that (as opposed to this, which works every time if you keep at the top of the slide).

The way you draw your guns if you hold the mouse button for more than a millisecond longer than needed when quitting a cutscene is annoying as hell.

You can left roll up the first waterfall after the boulder and skip the cutscene+guard, but it seems to be pretty much the same speed due to how hard it is and the positioning it needs. Also, you can skip the cutscene+guards after the gold plate by leaping over the wall in some weird way, but it seems slower than skipping through the cutscene and is far harder to do.

At the end of the level I save after a second or two into Peru, but when you load it goes back to the start of the level anyway, so I won't lose time.

Edit: One other funny thing about this run; part way through my alarm clock went off for some reason and I didn't have time to go over and turn it off, so I had to do the majority of this with it blaring at me. Maybe I should try that again :) .

Ewil

Edit history:

Ewil: 2007-05-16 03:37:35 pm

2007-05-16 03:36:39 pm

To be honest, I think you can do sub 6 minutes time.

I'll point out all the mistakes:

1) You should be prepared to move after every cutscene, I've noticed you always wait cca half a second after every cutscene.

2) 1:03 - You can jump right along the ledge, so you don't have to shimmy, although it's quite hard. Saves 2 seconds.

3) 1:18 - Small hesitation. Nothing serious though Smiley

4) 1:34 - Link to 1). 1 second...

5) 2:11 - It's possible to jump right onto the left chain, but it's also hard.

6) 2:25 - No swan dive. Another second.

7) 3:22 - Again 1)

8 ) 5:05 - You can just hold left+crouch with slight mouse movement, so you don't bump into the wall instead of turning around your mouse. Another second...

9) 5:10 - Hesitation.

I'm not saying it's a bad run, it's very good considering the difficulty of left-roll shortcuts, but it can be done better.

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-16 03:56:08 pm

2007-05-16 03:54:49 pm

I think you're overestimating the timings a bit. The cutscenes have a slight delay after them, but I don't think it's half a second (other than the one where that pistol draw crap happens). I found you could jump to the left chain after entering the temple, but it seemed like the weight would go into the ground 99% of the time.

Whats the technique to jump all the way across the shimmy at 1:03? I know you can get half way with the right position (it's one of the non-optimal shimmy points I mentioned), but skipping all of it is another matter and would definitely warrant a redo as it's a guaranteed improvement (if it isn't ridiculously hard).

Ewil

2007-05-16 04:21:38 pm

Maybe, but the delay isn't so big as in my run.

The technique to make that jump to ledge is to turn your mouse along with the ledge (to the left) when you're on the rock and jump. It's quite hard though, because you don't have much time to do that and she often just fell to the water instead of grabbing the ledge.

Watch G-Paul's run:

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-16 04:49:45 pm

2007-05-16 04:42:46 pm

Quote:

Maybe, but the delay isn't so big as in my run.

Are you saying the delay is bigger in your run or mine? It sounds like you are saying the former, but it seems a bit against what you said earlier (then again, you had the pistol thing at every cutscene).

Well, unless my luck can't match this run, it seems like the draw to try again is impossible to fight now Smiley

.

Edit: I'm also going to see if there's some alternative way to press "skip cutscene" as focusing on super-speed mouse stabs is part of what's causing delay.

CannibalK9

2007-05-16 05:00:50 pm

give me your eyes!!!

Bind the 'fire' button to something different, it makes it so much easier and you'll learn how to do it effectively in no time. I bound fire to my right mouse button and used shift for draw/undraw. I can't remember what was originally on shift but I didn't find anything hard to do quickly.

Great run! But yeah improvements would also be good, and I'm certainly going to have another go myself now.

Ewil

2007-05-16 05:19:00 pm

I'm not talking about the pistol drawing, which is annoying. I'm talking about the small delays like in 3:22, where you turn your mouse to the right angle and then start going towards the crate or the two waitings right before the spikes shortcut. The spikes shortcut can be also done second or two faster, but that would be probably an impossible task. Maybe it's really pointless, but it would save some second or two. It just looks like you don't hold the arrow key right before the cutscene ends.

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-16 09:53:30 pm

2007-05-16 09:43:28 pm

Ewil, you're right, sub-6 is possible.

After botching the coat hangers (in pretty much the most annoying way possible) on a great attempt with only about one minor mistake, I used quit-resume game to checkpoint the rest of the level decently, and got 5:54, so it's time to get sub-6 (though that time probably can't be compared since I used checkpoints to make it as good as possible).

Oh yeah, at the temple entrance I'm pretty sure it's faster to just go up the middle of the stairs and skip the cutscene, since it appears to lose you no time and probably "warps" you a little, it's also far safer and easier than using the side parts. Also, I think my new way for the chain in the box puzzle area is actually slower, or exactly the same, since you have to turn after grabbing the chain, so I'll just do it normally now. The way jump across would be fastest, but it seems to be extremely hard.

One of the reasons I had to align the camera in my current run is that I had troubles with it randomly being in a different place after cutscenes, but I've realised that the position of the camera before the cutscene determines where it will end up, so I don't have to worry about that now (and can make sure it's at the optimal angle).

I just swapped the left and right mouse buttons to fix the gun draw issue (that also fixed another problem I had, but I won't go into that Smiley

).

Ewil, you're right, sub-6 is possible.

After botching the coat hangers (in pretty much the most annoying way possible) on a great attempt with only about one minor mistake, I used quit-resume game to checkpoint the rest of the level decently, and got 5:54, so it's time to get sub-6 (though that time probably can't be compared since I used checkpoints to make it as good as possible).

Oh yeah, at the temple entrance I'm pretty sure it's faster to just go up the middle of the stairs and skip the cutscene, since it appears to lose you no time and probably "warps" you a little, it's also far safer and easier than using the side parts. Also, I think my new way for the chain in the box puzzle area is actually slower, or exactly the same, since you have to turn after grabbing the chain, so I'll just do it normally now. The way jump across would be fastest, but it seems to be extremely hard.

One of the reasons I had to align the camera in my current run is that I had troubles with it randomly being in a different place after cutscenes, but I've realised that the position of the camera before the cutscene determines where it will end up, so I don't have to worry about that now (and can make sure it's at the optimal angle).

I just swapped the left and right mouse buttons to fix the gun draw issue (that also fixed another problem I had, but I won't go into that :) ).

Ewil

2007-05-16 10:11:01 pm

Quote:

Ewil, you're right, sub-6 is possible.

Told ya

About the temple: Yes stairs are safer, but don't forget that you're stopped after each cutscene and there's that small delay before the game "enables" you keyboard again.

MMAN

2007-05-20 03:07:21 am

Finally did Bolivia in 5:54 (yeah, so much for matching that time being unrealistic Smiley

).

Video tomorrow.

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-20 03:38:03 pm

2007-05-20 03:21:40 pm

Here's the link (when it's processed):

The only noticable mistakes were the temple entrance roll taking a couple of attempts (and getting shot). A little messing up at the see-saw, and... Something after the new chain shortcut (apparently I completely lost the controls for a second and accidently used a medikit), along with a couple of minor things. Those probably add up to about 6-8 seconds in all, I also didn't bother with the instant shimmy (messes up way too much for a small improvement).

That's made up for by good crate moving (I miss a little, but it's still faster than most attempts there), decent balls at the coat hangers, and a near perfect final fight (I think I've pretty much got the perfect route worked out there).
The medikit didn't matter since I "accidently" got another in the last fight, and ended up finishing better than in my last run (2 left instead of 1).

I think if you got everything perfect (in terms of luck, no mistakes and shortcuts) you may be able to get around 5:39, but I'm not sure (with near perfect checkpoint runs I managed somewhere in the low 5:40's).

Here's the link (when it's processed): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXNUFZsCQf0

The only noticable mistakes were the temple entrance roll taking a couple of attempts (and getting shot). A little messing up at the see-saw, and... Something after the new chain shortcut (apparently I completely lost the controls for a second and accidently used a medikit), along with a couple of minor things. Those probably add up to about 6-8 seconds in all, I also didn't bother with the instant shimmy (messes up way too much for a small improvement).

That's made up for by good crate moving (I miss a little, but it's still faster than most attempts there), decent balls at the coat hangers, and a near perfect final fight (I think I've pretty much got the perfect route worked out there). 
The medikit didn't matter since I "accidently" got another in the last fight, and ended up finishing better than in my last run (2 left instead of 1).

I think if you got everything perfect (in terms of luck, no mistakes and shortcuts) you may be able to get around 5:39, but I'm not sure (with near perfect checkpoint runs I managed somewhere in the low 5:40's).

AjAX

2007-05-20 04:53:37 pm

Holy shit that was quick!

Just wondering how many fps do you get when recording, 30? It looks choppy at place or maybe its youtube I don't know.

MMAN

Edit history:

MMAN: 2007-05-20 05:21:22 pm

2007-05-20 05:19:49 pm

The source video is 60 (98% of the time). Must be Youtube.