Time for a new update of the SDA rules

2016-07-10 12:52:29 pm

Freezard: Going from 100% to 200% speed sounds like a drastic enough change so you could probably do either as their own category. I presume you meant no other differences.

As ymh said it, RTA runs can use save-abusing tricks as much as segmented ones. ILs is not quite as clear because... well I just can't remember examples, but in principle it shouldn't be any different right?

ymh: The examples I was thinking of had basically sliders instead of something so clear-cut as 150cc/200cc etc, but I suppose if it's something you select in the game menu BEFORE starting your run, and you can't keep changing it during, it makes it even easier to allow (or actually harder to disallow) it.

ymh

2016-07-10 01:14:01 pm

Quote from LotBlind:

ILs is not quite as clear because... well I just can't remember examples, but in principle it shouldn't be any different right?

Yeah, I don't see why it should be different. After all, IL runs are also just either SS or multi-segmented runs.

Ewil

2016-07-11 01:10:59 am

IL runs can be multi-segmented? That's a new one for me.

Crow!

2016-07-11 11:01:41 am

What's that gemma?

I have a rules question for a PC game I've recently started running, Missionforce: Cyberstorm.

Over the course of the game, I need to create ~35 vehicles (or "Hercs"), each with 20 customizeable components, most of which I in fact plan to customize. To make this more convenient, the game allows you to save a given customized vehicle design and then purchase it as though it were one of the pre-made vehicles.

So here's my question. The game lets you load any vehicle file you've ever made, not just the ones made during the current run. If I use a set of vehicle files that I created before the game started, does that alone qualify the run as a New Game +?

Also, in case it's relevant, it is possible to hex-edit the vehicle files to create something that could not have been made via the game's vehicle design interface. Most of the would-be cheats can be verified by recreating the vehicle purchase screen, but it would be hard (though still possible) for verifiers to confirm that a vehicle with Standard legs didn't swap those legs with a heavier or lighter vehicle.

I have a rules question for a PC game I've recently started running, Missionforce: Cyberstorm.

Over the course of the game, I need to create ~35 vehicles (or "Hercs"), each with 20 customizeable components, most of which I in fact plan to customize.  To make this more convenient, the game allows you to save a given customized vehicle design and then purchase it as though it were one of the pre-made vehicles.

So here's my question.  The game lets you load any vehicle file you've ever made, not just the ones made during the current run.  If I use a set of vehicle files that I created before the game started, does that alone qualify the run as a New Game +?

Also, in case it's relevant, it is possible to hex-edit the vehicle files to create something that could not have been made via the game's vehicle design interface.  Most of the would-be cheats can be verified by recreating the vehicle purchase screen, but it would be hard (though still possible) for verifiers to confirm that a vehicle with Standard legs didn't swap those legs with a heavier or lighter vehicle.

ymh

2016-07-11 12:31:07 pm

Quote from Ewil:

IL runs can be multi-segmented? That's a new one for me.

I can't name any IL table that has multi-segmented runs, but as far as I can see there is nothing in the rules that speaks against that, is there ?

Ewil

2016-07-11 02:40:02 pm

I believe the main reason for not doing multi-segmented ILs was because of the save penalty, thus nobody did it. Is the save penalty still a rule? I can't see anything about it in the rules.

Crow!: I believe that would be NG+ category.

Elipsis

2016-07-11 04:43:00 pm

Quote from Ewil:

I believe the main reason for not doing multi-segmented ILs was because of the save penalty, thus nobody did it. Is the save penalty still a rule? I can't see anything about it in the rules.

The save penalty was done away with a little while ago.

Freezard

2016-07-11 05:12:27 pm

I've been told ILs must be done in one segment... you're not allowed to segment ILs.

ymh

2016-07-12 11:22:31 am

Quote from Freezard:

I've been told ILs must be done in one segment... you're not allowed to segment ILs.

And who told you that ? Cheesy

I guess another reason for not segmenting an IL run is because a lot of the times the levels are rather short, so that you just re-attempt them if you fail a route/glitch.
But just think of longer levels with really risky tricks or routes. Shouldn't segmenting then clearly be allowed for the sake of a better run/faster time ?
The way the rules read to me now, "IL" merely means that levels can be run independent from each other, but that doesn't imply any restriction on segmentation.

Tigger77

2016-07-12 11:55:27 am

I survived MIKE-Fest 1

... I also thought 100% that IL's had to be a Singel segment ...
A practical reason for this would be the to aviod a category overflow. If segmentation on IL is allowed will there be a Singel Segment AND a Segment category for evry IL??
I think if you want to do segementet IL's you better just do just a segmentet run of the game.

puwexil

2016-07-12 01:05:56 pm

Professional Second Banana

Agreed that we want to prevent category bloat as much as possible. Is there a use case where doing segmentation within an IL run would produce something different from just a normal IL that's grinded until a perfect run of that stage/mission/track/etc?

ktwo

2016-07-12 02:12:47 pm

Quote from Ewil:

Btw, my Tomb Raider 4 run (http://speeddemosarchive.com/TombRaider4.html) here on SDA changes aiming mode in options just for one segment and it is neither recorded nor timed. There's probably a few more games around that "abuse" this as well.

Unless this was specifically brought up when the run was timed, there is always the possibility that whoever timed your run didn't know about it. I know there are a lot game-specific timing conventions, but the general rule is that if something impacts gameplay, it should be timed.

Quote from Freezard:

The game I'm thinking of is Duke Nukem Forever where you can run the game in 200% speed after beating the game on normal.

In this specific case, it sounds like it would be an NG+ category then.

Quote from Crow!:

I have a rules question for a PC game I've recently started running, Missionforce: Cyberstorm.

Over the course of the game, I need to create ~35 vehicles (or "Hercs"), each with 20 customizeable components, most of which I in fact plan to customize. To make this more convenient, the game allows you to save a given customized vehicle design and then purchase it as though it were one of the pre-made vehicles.

So here's my question. The game lets you load any vehicle file you've ever made, not just the ones made during the current run. If I use a set of vehicle files that I created before the game started, does that alone qualify the run as a New Game +?

The following section of the rules seems to answer this (from the timing part):

Quote:

However, if character creation is done as an independent activity before the game starts, it's not considered as part of the run time, even when it involves defining stats, equipment or similar.

[quote="Ewil"]Btw, my Tomb Raider 4 run (http://speeddemosarchive.com/TombRaider4.html) here on SDA changes aiming mode in options just for one segment and it is neither recorded nor timed. There's probably a few more games around that "abuse" this as well.[/quote]
Unless this was specifically brought up when the run was timed, there is always the possibility that whoever timed your run didn't know about it. I know there are a lot game-specific timing conventions, but the general rule is that if something impacts gameplay, it should be timed.

[quote="Freezard"]The game I'm thinking of is Duke Nukem Forever where you can run the game in 200% speed after beating the game on normal.[/quote]
In this specific case, it sounds like it would be an NG+ category then.

[quote="Crow!"]I have a rules question for a PC game I've recently started running, Missionforce: Cyberstorm.

Over the course of the game, I need to create ~35 vehicles (or "Hercs"), each with 20 customizeable components, most of which I in fact plan to customize.  To make this more convenient, the game allows you to save a given customized vehicle design and then purchase it as though it were one of the pre-made vehicles.

So here's my question.  The game lets you load any vehicle file you've ever made, not just the ones made during the current run.  If I use a set of vehicle files that I created before the game started, does that alone qualify the run as a New Game +?[/quote]
The following section of the rules seems to answer this (from the timing part):
[quote]However, if character creation is done as an independent activity before the game starts, it's not considered as part of the run time, even when it involves defining stats, equipment or similar.[/quote]

Freezard

2016-07-12 02:34:01 pm

What's the difference of a segmented run and segmented ILs? Basically nothing, unless you do ILs for a game that already has a complete table, and then it's unfair for the other runs since they were done in one segment. It would also drive away competition since every level would be completely optimized in a heartbeat. By grinding out levels you can already do super hard tricks, which is kind of the point of ILs in the first place, not to do everything perfectly, that's more for segmented runs.

ymh

2016-07-12 04:56:23 pm

Yeah, you guys have some good arguments against segmented IL.

IsraeliRD

2016-07-12 08:57:17 pm

Dragon Power Supreme

Quote from puwexil:

Agreed that we want to prevent category bloat as much as possible. Is there a use case where doing segmentation within an IL run would produce something different from just a normal IL that's grinded until a perfect run of that stage/mission/track/etc?

16:21 minutes faster run, for example

Ewil

2016-07-13 02:28:12 pm

You guys completely forget about load/save glitches, which many games have. These glitches can totally break a level, thus such segmented IL run would produce something different. Unless the runner could provide evidence it was done in single segment. Different timing method would have to be used, too.

Crow!

2016-07-14 04:39:23 pm

What's that gemma?

Quote from ktwo:

Quote from Crow!:

Over the course of the game, I need to create ~35 vehicles (or "Hercs") ...

So here's my question. The game lets you load any vehicle file you've ever made, not just the ones made during the current run. If I use a set of vehicle files that I created before the game started, does that alone qualify the run as a New Game +?

The following section of the rules seems to answer this (from the timing part):

Quote:

However, if character creation is done as an independent activity before the game starts, it's not considered as part of the run time, even when it involves defining stats, equipment or similar.

OK, so by that logic, I guess my run's video is expected to include the creation of the Herc designs I'll be buying over the course of the game.

ktwo

2016-07-15 05:20:22 am

Crow!, since it's not timed, it's usually not required to have it included. Especially if it's just selecting already existing combinations of stats "cook book-style". However, for the sake of more easily being able to verify the legitimacy and the possibility that other timing standards could be applied to your run (outside sda), I guess it won't hurt to have that step recorded as well.

Just be aware that if there is anything unusual you haven't mentioned, that could of course impact the reply. Lets say you actually need to start the game and run to a hangar, or similar, and there create all the vehicles, then it would be considered as gameplay and need to be included. Or, like you said, you could just take them from another save file and then it would fall under the ng+ category.