Thief 2: The Metal Age

jakeplissken

Edit history:

jakeplissken: 2015-09-23 06:34:03 pm

2015-09-23 06:33:42 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Yeah, I hate that gate boost. I always seem to get stuck on the gate. But if I'm doing IL's, I should definitely be going for it. I tried a few more runs of Framed but the best I could manage was a 1:48 because of bad luck mostly.

Here's the other good IL time I got. A few little routing optimizations here and there and some good RNG with the mechbeasts.

jakeplissken

2015-09-23 09:51:29 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Never mind that run, it was so two hours ago.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2015-09-24 10:27:11 am

LotBlind: 2015-09-24 09:33:08 am

2015-09-24 09:31:52 am

Read the notes under Mission 6 in the guide for the new exit. I see Socrates never uploaded the record time he got using it. I don't remember what the time was but he did say it's 1 second faster if you go upstairs, place an arrow kinda up and to the right of the door leading to the upper walkway patrolled by the mech (place it inside the dome ceiling ofc) so you can climb a little ways up to trigger that exit. Otherwise that's pretty good with a little bit of movement optimization left. You're having the same little toothing issues Socrates first had with snapping to the right angles when strafing to make it look nicer. I see you're doing "any% ILs", but that's essentially the same run as the "money/official IL" would've been. Just more Flash bombs and mines for consistency I guess.

I wanna get back to this game soon... but can't yet.

EDIT: Oh wait why are you getting stuck doing the gate boost? Maybe you need to crawl a bit further first and remember to spam jump right after you've been boosted. Aim it squarely at the door you need to pass through (maybe go to the far right of the gate).

Read the notes under Mission 6 in the guide for the new exit. I see Socrates never uploaded the record time he got using it. I don't remember what the time was but he did say it's 1 second faster if you go upstairs, place an arrow kinda up and to the right of the door leading to the upper walkway patrolled by the mech (place it inside the dome ceiling ofc) so you can climb a little ways up to trigger that exit. Otherwise that's pretty good with a little bit of movement optimization left. You're having the same little toothing issues Socrates first had with snapping to the right angles when strafing to make it look nicer. I see you're doing "any% ILs", but that's essentially the same run as the "money/official IL" would've been. Just more Flash bombs and mines for consistency I guess.

I wanna get back to this game soon... but can't yet.

EDIT: Oh wait why are you getting stuck doing the gate boost? Maybe you need to crawl a bit further first and remember to spam jump right after you've been boosted. Aim it squarely at the door you need to pass through (maybe go to the far right of the gate).

jakeplissken

2015-09-24 05:58:21 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

I was under the impression that the dome exit was the same or a little slower but I never got time to test it, although I do prefer that route because it looks better. I sometimes run into trouble with that exit if I'm out of flash bombs, because you might get a mechbeast in your face at point blank range at the top of the stairs because they patrol around the upper level of the dome. Good to know that route is actually faster though.

I'm mostly interested in any% IL's because those are the strategies I can eventually use when I have time to start doing some more SS runs. I'm not really interested in IL records or anything like that since there's not really a record board in place, as far as I know.

When I get stuck trying the gate trick, I always get lodged in the gate and it lifts me up almost like when you elevator with an item. So I'm probably not moving far enough past the gate before getting boosted.

LotBlind

2015-09-25 11:47:35 am

well the record board is the ILs table after the first submission isn't it? For me I only care about how fast the level is completed (or if it can be completed any faster really), not who holds the record.

Get lodged inside it? I don't remember that happening. Are you sure you're doing it right? Crouch - get under it - uncrouch - lean - jump jump jump. Version differences? :/

jakeplissken

2015-09-26 01:12:30 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Right, as far as I know no one has put together an individual levels money run like Rogston's on SDA for The Dark Project, or an any% segmented sort of thing, although it is a pretty interesting idea. I'm interested to see what the fastest possible time could be. It's definitely sub 1 hour. While Soulforge is pretty straightforward, I don't think anyone has run it optimally because the execution is so tricky (especially Bay D).

I sure hope that it isn't a version thing. I like my 1.21 Cry

But I have been able to do it pretty consistently on 1.18.

jakeplissken

2015-10-06 09:28:43 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

This is pretty much how my single segment attempts have been going.

SocratesJohnson

2015-10-06 10:12:30 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

You got hit with a SHAS, bro. http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/SHAS

Cheesy

jakeplissken

Edit history:

jakeplissken: 2015-10-06 10:51:26 pm

jakeplissken: 2015-10-06 10:51:19 pm

jakeplissken: 2015-10-06 10:51:13 pm

jakeplissken: 2015-10-06 10:32:02 pm

2015-10-06 10:31:22 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Hahaha this is amazing, I never even knew this page existed. All the symptoms match. I'm guessing I somehow got crushed between the seams of the opening hatch, exacerbated by the speed potion. At least I get a stunning highlight every time I run this game Tongue

EDIT: Also now I'm terrified because the wiki says it is known to occur at the crenellated tower where the fire arrows are on Life of the Party. So now I don't only have to worry about falling off, I have to worry about the SHAS too Undecided

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2015-10-07 12:01:26 pm

2015-10-07 12:00:25 pm

"What, there's a dead body?"

HAHAHAHAHA. I don't remember if I've had a lot of SHASing with T2 apart from with those certain lanterns and ropes I pointed out on Ambushed. Getting stuck in places yes. And I have the earlier version so you'd expect more of it for me... It must be you're going too fast, Garrett's heart can't keep up!

LotBlind

2015-10-10 02:28:00 pm

I realized this challenge can be completed with flare in mission 1 of our game... if anyone would like to record it though, I can't. Just blow the whistle and Basso will do mission 1 for you. Hope it works for any of you, it doesn't always work though.

https://forum.speeddemosarchive.com/post/challenge_for_rts_runners_especially_fastest_controller_down.html

jakeplissken

Edit history:

jakeplissken: 2015-10-10 10:03:04 pm

jakeplissken: 2015-10-10 10:02:05 pm

2015-10-10 09:46:58 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

I'm on it. Seems like fun!

EDIT: Seems like it might not be possible unfortunately. I tested it by blowing the birdcall immediately and the mission always seems to end in failure around the 1:38 mark. I followed Basso to see what was going on. He gets seen by the guards in the lit hallway and they pursue him, and then he stops before the archer guard in the hallway. That guard then alerts because of the other guards chasing him. Basso always gets stunlocked by arrows like all AI's and doesn't make any attempts to get by the guard. Also the lady sword guard royally wrecks him if she paths right. I'll investigate to see if there are any version differences or if it's a newdark thing. It has the potential to be one of the fastest possible controller downs because it's literally only two inputs if we can get it to work.

LotBlind

2015-10-11 12:11:30 pm

On 1.07 I get it about every second time let's say with wild variations in finish times.

You should also try moving as far away from the house as you can in case that reduces AI activity.

OneginIII

Edit history:

OneginIII: 2015-10-29 03:38:59 pm

2015-10-29 03:31:07 pm

twitch.tv/oneginiii

Ok, so I don't know if this has been seen before, but I just got a glitch in one of my runs where my speed potion lasted indefinately (or at least for the 3 or so minutes it took to finish the final level). I have a highlight for this: http://www.twitch.tv/oneginiii/v/23054145.
I did some testing and after trying it unsuccessfully a few time I decided to try using an another speed potion right as the old one ends. This worked and I got the glitch three more times. Highlight for that is here: http://www.twitch.tv/oneginiii/v/23055491. However after this I restarted the mission and tried again, but couldn't do it anymore. I did more testing for like an hour but did not get it again a single time.

I don't know whats going on with this but if any of you feel like doing some testing feel free.

SocratesJohnson

2015-10-29 04:01:40 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

The elusive speed potion bug! That's cool that you were able to reproduce it with using the 2 potions, but unfortunate that it was just that one time. I've been trying to figure it out on and off for about 2 years or so, but you might be on the right track it seems.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2015-10-30 03:10:23 pm

LotBlind: 2015-10-30 03:10:04 pm

LotBlind: 2015-10-30 03:09:20 pm

2015-10-30 03:05:43 pm

I copy pasted your description of what you did into the Guide. I'm still not finished with my other game for now but after the next milestone I will abandon it for this.

Oh btw, do twitch highlights expire? If they do getting a clean YT version of that would be awesome. It would be awesome in general actually because they load better.

OneginIII

Edit history:

OneginIII: 2015-10-30 07:11:56 pm

OneginIII: 2015-10-30 07:11:19 pm

2015-10-30 07:03:14 pm

twitch.tv/oneginiii

Twitch highlights don't expire. I also have a copy of the full VOD unlisted on YouTube just in case. I can upload the highlights to YT too at some point.

I can't really wrap my head around what causes the glitch though. The first time I get it with one potion, no quicksaves during or right at the end of the potion. Second time I get it "consistently" with two potions, no saves and it seems really easy as to certainly not being a frame-perfect trick. The second two potion attempts were after I restarted the mission, and walked back to the room with the beds. Second time I restart, nothing.

Right as I was writing this I got it again: Outside of soulforge, using one potion I just did a steep 180 turn at/near the end of the potion nothing else. No video unfortunately, I just booted up the game thinking I could try it once.

Edit: I'm getting it every time I load a save I did outside of soulforge. I just need to use one potion and walk at least a little bit and it will be infinite every time. It's really late for me now. I'll do more testing tomorrow.

Twitch highlights don't expire. I also have a copy of the full VOD unlisted on YouTube just in case. I can upload the highlights to YT too at some point.

I can't really wrap my head around what causes the glitch though. The first time I get it with one potion, no quicksaves during or right at the end of the potion. Second time I get it "consistently" with two potions, no saves and it seems really easy as to certainly not being a frame-perfect trick. The second two potion attempts were after I restarted the mission, and walked back to the room with the beds. Second time I restart, nothing.

Right as I was writing this I got it again: Outside of soulforge, using one potion I just did a steep 180 turn at/near the end of the potion nothing else. No video unfortunately, I just booted up the game thinking I could try it once.

Edit: I'm getting it every time I load a save I did outside of soulforge. I just need to use one potion and walk at least a little bit and it will be infinite every time. It's really late for me now. I'll do more testing tomorrow.

OneginIII

Edit history:

OneginIII: 2015-10-31 10:15:43 am

OneginIII: 2015-10-31 10:13:59 am

OneginIII: 2015-10-31 10:13:49 am

2015-10-30 08:05:41 pm

twitch.tv/oneginiii

Ok, I figured out steps to repeat to get the speed potion glitch, as far as I tried, consistently: Start Sabotage at Soulforge with a speed potion from the shop. Go outside Soulforge. Quicksave. Use speed potion. Test if speed potion is infinite (over 9 seconds or so). If not, quickload. After quickloading quicksave, and then use another speed potion. Repeat until you get infinite speed potion. I got it every time within 10 tries. Couldn't get it to work on other missions though. ~~Once you get "the save" any one speed potion you use in that save will be infinite.~~ Edit: Theres more to it than this. Seems to be time limited. Works 10 seconds after quickload, but not 20 seconds.

Edit: I made a video for a setup to get the glitch pretty much every time with one quicksave/quickload at the start of Sabotage at Soulforge:

LotBlind

2015-11-01 12:33:52 pm

Well I never...

If one was to go for that it would turn any% into RTA, but I don't think we've made a difference in the past between them... even deathless/no load runs have been thought of as RTA. The submitted record has no reloads AFAIR.

Does anyone remember getting the infinite speed glitch in other missions ever? Also could you try to see if the same goes for slow-fall and invisi potions too? Maybe even healing? It seems like we shouldn't split the runs into any% AND RTA just for this one mission. And if you really need the save/load to get that (but surely xmodule didn't use one?) that would make it unsuitable for ILs too wouldn't it? I don't think I've ever seen ILs that have save/loads even when it's for a trick like this but I'm not sure.

So the only way to incorporate it (barring more uses discovered later) would be to once and for all make the main category be RTA not any%. OR to make it so you have to do a segmented run to do it, which in all fairness has been thought to be (by me at least) a valid choice even aside from ILs. Segmented of course meaning you segment within the missions and everything carries over. If you make everything RTA, that might be stepping on the toes of segmented runs a bit, but if you don't make everything RTA and no consistent no-fail setup for speed potioning Soulforge is ever found, any% turns into a luckfest right at the very end.

If you don't allow segmented there might be other risky stuff that never gets shown off.

Thoughts?

Well I never...

If one was to go for that it would turn any% into RTA, but I don't think we've made a difference in the past between them... even deathless/no load runs have been thought of as RTA. The submitted record has no reloads AFAIR.

Does anyone remember getting the infinite speed glitch in other missions ever? Also could you try to see if the same goes for slow-fall and invisi potions too? Maybe even healing? It seems like we shouldn't split the runs into any% AND RTA just for this one mission. And if you really need the save/load to get that (but surely xmodule didn't use one?) that would make it unsuitable for ILs too wouldn't it? I don't think I've ever seen ILs that have save/loads even when it's for a trick like this but I'm not sure.

So the only way to incorporate it (barring more uses discovered later) would be to once and for all make the main category be RTA not any%. OR to make it so you have to do a segmented run to do it, which in all fairness has been thought to be (by me at least) a valid choice even aside from ILs. Segmented of course meaning you segment within the missions and everything carries over. If you make everything RTA, that might be stepping on the toes of segmented runs a bit, but if you don't make everything RTA and no consistent no-fail setup for speed potioning Soulforge is ever found, any% turns into a luckfest right at the very end.

If you don't allow segmented there might be other risky stuff that never gets shown off.

Thoughts?

SocratesJohnson

2015-11-01 05:37:49 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

Wow, that's awesome! Nice find! I just tried it twice, and both times it stuck. So far this makes the beginning storage room and bay D a lot safer, and removes the need for vine arrows to get to the controls and to escape with some precise jumps.

I'll have to see what kind of a time I get on it. I also tried it with an invisibility potion that worked, but so far, it only takes the effects of the first potion consumed, so stacking them doesn't seem to work ... yet.

jakeplissken

Edit history:

jakeplissken: 2015-11-02 11:31:48 pm

jakeplissken: 2015-11-02 11:30:51 pm

jakeplissken: 2015-11-02 11:30:42 pm

2015-11-02 11:29:58 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Since there's so much discussion (some might say vitriol) in the speedrunning community in general about classification, irrelevant categories, marshmallow runs, etc. I'd thought I would give my two cents.

The only categories that have seen any sort of meaningful attempts are any% (IGT), and any% RTA, both on normal difficulty. Right now, we understand "any%" to be no quicksaves, no quickloads, no deaths, no restarts. I.E., it's a single segment run. In RTA we can restart, quicksave, quickload, etc. In general, the final IGT for RTA runs is lower than single segment runs because harder strats can be attempted multiple times with quicksaves and quickloads, and large mistakes can be ironed out rather than using safety strats.

RTA is not the be-all, end-all solution for timing speedruns. It has its pros and cons, like everything else. For instance, in games where the in-game timer can produce inaccurate results (Pokemon Green any%) or games where the in-game timer can be manipulated through lag, RTA may be necessary to insure proper timing. However there are games where RTA is just incorrect, such as 8-bit platformers which award a time bonus. Thief 2 doesn't fit neatly into either category. In my mind it's good that we finally have a glitch that has the potential for a huge time save because it has essentially forced this conversation.

Having two timing systems is an issue. There are several boards on Speedrun.com that are in complete disarray because of this very issue. Deus Ex: HR used to require IGT, time with loads, and time without loads for run submission until it was decided to drop IGT (for still-controversial reasons). In Resident Evil 5 Co-op amateur, the fastest IGT run is fourth on the overall RTA board because of menuing (it was still a deathless run).

The state of T2 is that we don't really have any standards set for RTA. Socrates' SDA run is the obsolete any% time. We also have the speedrun.com board, which is the faster any% run. Both have no quicksaves or resets of any kind. If you try to find RTA runs anywhere, they're usually rusty practice runs or old routes that are significantly slower. If RTA is going to be a thing for T2, we need a few things to happen.

1) People need to actually be willing to run it.
2) There need to be categories established with clear rules which are easily accessible to anyone running the game.
3) There should be as few categories as possible to cover all areas of runner interest. (I.E. afaik nobody runs hard difficulty and almost nobody runs expert, either 100% or any%, nor does anyone seem interested in a glitchless run).

I'll be the first to say that I'm not really interested in running RTA. There are a few reasons that it is not very attractive to me. It's fun to stream with splits when you're rusty to show where you could improve. But we are ultimately trying to discover how fast the game can possibly be beaten. Even if that involves this quicksave/quickload glitch, any% SS is a totally different animal. One of the reasons this game is so fun to run is because of the risk involved. Anything can go wrong at any point and the fastest strats are also very risky. If I just run through every level spamming my quicksave key, all of that is gone. I think one of the reasons people are drawn to RTA is because it's damn easy. At no point are you at risk of losing the run unless you yourself decide you're too far behind and want to reset. Yes, as a runner it is annoying when the guards don't open the doors on blackmail, or to lose a run 45 minutes in because you clacked on marble and some guard 30 meters away alerts from outside the mansion. But these sort of things are what make Thief II any% an impressive run. It requires excellent execution throughout the entire game. So unless someone produces evidence that IGT is inaccurate (I've tested it extensively - there is none) I won't be using RTA.

Segmented runs are also a good idea. If anyone saw the old SDA System Shock 2 any% segmented run, you know these Dark Engine games can be seriously impressive with flawless execution on each level, and my sum of best splits is sub 1 hour IGT, so that should be easily achievable in a segmented run.

I don't want to exclude either RTA or IGT. I think they both serve their purpose and they're both interesting runs. If it were my choice, IGT any% would be THE category, but that excludes everyone who doesn't want to learn the game inside and out and actually wants to make it to the end of the game once in a while. At the same time, IGT can't be the ultimate factor in deciding the quality of a run. I can sit here for four hours resetting and get a sub 1 hour IGT. I don't know, just some ideas.

Since there's so much discussion (some might say vitriol) in the speedrunning community in general about classification, irrelevant categories, marshmallow runs, etc. I'd thought I would give my two cents.

The only categories that have seen any sort of meaningful attempts are any% (IGT), and any% RTA, both on normal difficulty. Right now, we understand "any%" to be no quicksaves, no quickloads, no deaths, no restarts. I.E., it's a single segment run. In RTA we can restart, quicksave, quickload, etc. In general, the final IGT for RTA runs is lower than single segment runs because harder strats can be attempted multiple times with quicksaves and quickloads, and large mistakes can be ironed out rather than using safety strats.

RTA is not the be-all, end-all solution for timing speedruns. It has its pros and cons, like everything else. For instance, in games where the in-game timer can produce inaccurate results (Pokemon Green any%) or games where the in-game timer can be manipulated through lag, RTA may be necessary to insure proper timing. However there are games where RTA is just incorrect, such as 8-bit platformers which award a time bonus. Thief 2 doesn't fit neatly into either category. In my mind it's good that we finally have a glitch that has the potential for a huge time save because it has essentially forced this conversation.

Having two timing systems is an issue. There are several boards on Speedrun.com that are in complete disarray because of this very issue. Deus Ex: HR used to require IGT, time with loads, and time without loads for run submission until it was decided to drop IGT (for still-controversial reasons). In Resident Evil 5 Co-op amateur, the fastest IGT run is fourth on the overall RTA board because of menuing (it was still a deathless run).

The state of T2 is that we don't really have any standards set for RTA. Socrates' SDA run is the obsolete any% time. We also have the speedrun.com board, which is the faster any% run. Both have no quicksaves or resets of any kind. If you try to find RTA runs anywhere, they're usually rusty practice runs or old routes that are significantly slower. If RTA is going to be a thing for T2, we need a few things to happen.

1) People need to actually be willing to run it.
2) There need to be categories established with clear rules which are easily accessible to anyone running the game. 
3) There should be as few categories as possible to cover all areas of runner interest. (I.E. afaik nobody runs hard difficulty and almost nobody runs expert, either 100% or any%, nor does anyone seem interested in a glitchless run).

I'll be the first to say that I'm not really interested in running RTA. There are a few reasons that it is not very attractive to me. It's fun to stream with splits when you're rusty to show where you could improve. But we are ultimately trying to discover how fast the game can possibly be beaten. Even if that involves this quicksave/quickload glitch, any% SS is a totally different animal. One of the reasons this game is so fun to run is because of the risk involved. Anything can go wrong at any point and the fastest strats are also very risky. If I just run through every level spamming my quicksave key, all of that is gone. I think one of the reasons people are drawn to RTA is because it's damn easy. At no point are you at risk of losing the run unless you yourself decide you're too far behind and want to reset. Yes, as a runner it is annoying when the guards don't open the doors on blackmail, or to lose a run 45 minutes in because you clacked on marble and some guard 30 meters away alerts from outside the mansion. But these sort of things are what make Thief II any% an impressive run. It requires excellent execution throughout the entire game. So unless someone produces evidence that IGT is inaccurate (I've tested it extensively - there is none) I won't be using RTA.

Segmented runs are also a good idea. If anyone saw the old SDA System Shock 2 any% segmented run, you know these Dark Engine games can be seriously impressive with flawless execution on each level, and my sum of best splits is sub 1 hour IGT, so that should be easily achievable in a segmented run.

I don't want to exclude either RTA or IGT. I think they both serve their purpose and they're both interesting runs. If it were my choice, IGT any% would be THE category, but that excludes everyone who doesn't want to learn the game inside and out and actually wants to make it to the end of the game once in a while. At the same time, IGT can't be the ultimate factor in deciding the quality of a run. I can sit here for four hours resetting and get a sub 1 hour IGT. I don't know, just some ideas.

OneginIII

2015-11-03 07:47:22 pm

twitch.tv/oneginiii

I just submitted a RTA time to the leaderboards (with quickloads), since I wanted to test getting some kind of a time up there. I just started running any% for this game a few weeks ago, and I find RTA very enjoyable. Getting runs going like jake said is pretty easy, which is nice when you are getting started. Right now to me seems like the only division needed is any% runs in RTA (with quickloads/resets in real time) and single-segment (without quickloads/resets in ingame time), which IMO is not too confusing. Ultimately when the runs get very optimized, a run with no quickloads will end up being faster even in RTA, if the strats are the same. The only question is what to do about infinite speed potion. IMO infinite speed potion should not be allowed in single-segment. Making arbitrary exceptions to the no quicksave/quickload rule to me seems like a bad idea. I also suspect that it might not pass the SDA requirements for a true single segment (although I think single-segment with resets is a thing now).

I guess I'm the only one running RTA, so I just hope that I'll get my runs in one form or another on speedrun.com at least. Eventually if I have the time/motivation to grind out single-segment runs I can, but for now I'd like to run RTA.
By the way, the ingame time for my RTA run was about (forgot to check the actual time) 1:00:02. A sub 1 with infinite speed potion shouldn't even be that hard. My sum of bests is already getting close to sub 1 RTA, with the new stuff.

I just submitted a RTA time to the leaderboards (with quickloads), since I wanted to test getting some kind of a time up there. I just started running any% for this game a few weeks ago, and I find RTA very enjoyable. Getting runs going like jake said is pretty easy, which is nice when you are getting started. Right now to me seems like the only division needed is any% runs in RTA (with quickloads/resets in real time) and single-segment (without quickloads/resets in ingame time), which IMO is not too confusing. Ultimately when the runs get very optimized, a run with no quickloads will end up being faster even in RTA, if the strats are the same. The only question is what to do about infinite speed potion. IMO infinite speed potion should not be allowed in single-segment. Making arbitrary exceptions to the no quicksave/quickload rule to me seems like a bad idea. I also suspect that it might not pass the SDA requirements for a true single segment (although I think single-segment with resets is a thing now).

I guess I'm the only one running RTA, so I just hope that I'll get my runs in one form or another on speedrun.com at least. Eventually if I have the time/motivation to grind out single-segment runs I can, but for now I'd like to run RTA.
By the way, the ingame time for my RTA run was about (forgot to check the actual time) 1:00:02. A sub 1 with infinite speed potion shouldn't even be that hard. My sum of bests is already getting close to sub 1 RTA, with the new stuff.

jakeplissken

2015-11-03 10:09:46 pm

I'm an Olympic Straferunner

Just got a 59:09 IGT, but my RTA was an awful 1:09:02 because I lost 3 minutes to not quicksaving often and having to reload, and then I lost 4:30 because I was unable to get the infinite speed potion setup (I was able to get it first try every time early today Undecided

). My Soulforge time was a 10:30 with a ton of errors because I was beyond caring at that point. So sub 1 hour should be the new standard for RTA. I agree that the ISP should not be allowed in single-segment, but I think as the category is currently defined it is not practically possible. I was able to replicate it once with just a quicksave and not a quickload, but it was inconsistent and only got it to work once. I got it to work by quicksaving in the normal spot, setting my mouse to huge sensitivity, and spinning out of control towards the end of the potion. But like I said, I only got it once, so that's not exactly a viable single-segment strategy unless one is inclined to run the game 10,000 times hoping for a lucky ISP 50 minutes in.

Just got a 59:09 IGT, but my RTA was an awful 1:09:02 because I lost 3 minutes to not quicksaving often and having to reload, and then I lost 4:30 because I was unable to get the infinite speed potion setup (I was able to get it first try every time early today :-\ ). My Soulforge time was a 10:30 with a ton of errors because I was beyond caring at that point. So sub 1 hour should be the new standard for RTA. I agree that the ISP should not be allowed in single-segment, but I think as the category is currently defined it is not practically possible. I was able to replicate it once with just a quicksave and not a quickload, but it was inconsistent and only got it to work once. I got it to work by quicksaving in the normal spot, setting my mouse to huge sensitivity, and spinning out of control towards the end of the potion. But like I said, I only got it once, so that's not exactly a viable single-segment strategy unless one is inclined to run the game 10,000 times hoping for a lucky ISP 50 minutes in.

SocratesJohnson

2015-11-04 12:30:03 pm

Always move forward, never sleep.

The one thing I've noticed about the ISP when people first get it are:
1) It's on Soulforge
2) Generally speaking, there wasn't a quicksave/load to cause it

If we can figure out the ISP without the need to quicksave/load, that would be awesome, but for now with the current method, I agree it should be RTA only. OneginIII, on your highlight where you got it, that's the same area I first experienced it, by the crusher, but with all the testing I've done, I couldn't get it to work again. Maybe there's something in that area that is like the outside corner near the start? Lot noticed a while ago that hitting the in game screenshot button can do some interesting things, so perhaps that could be used? I'll have to test a few things later, but I suck at glitch hunting, so we'll see how that goes. Tongue

I'm really digging the attention this game is getting recently, though! As much as I want to run the game, my work/personal life doesn't leave me with a lot of time or motivation to get back into full runs, but things are changing, so I may pick it back up soon (who cares Tongue

). I should definitely find some time to see what I can do with Soulforge, though.

The one thing I've noticed about the ISP when people first get it are:
1) It's on Soulforge
2) Generally speaking, there wasn't a quicksave/load to cause it

If we can figure out the ISP without the need to quicksave/load, that would be awesome, but for now with the current method, I agree it should be RTA only.  OneginIII, on your highlight where you got it, that's the same area I first experienced it, by the crusher, but with all the testing I've done, I couldn't get it to work again.  Maybe there's something in that area that is like the outside corner near the start?  Lot noticed a while ago that hitting the in game screenshot button can do some interesting things, so perhaps that could be used?  I'll have to test a few things later, but I suck at glitch hunting, so we'll see how that goes. :P

I'm really digging the attention this game is getting recently, though!  As much as I want to run the game, my work/personal life doesn't leave me with a lot of time or motivation to get back into full runs, but things are changing, so I may pick it back up soon (who cares :P ).  I should definitely find some time to see what I can do with Soulforge, though.

LotBlind

Edit history:

LotBlind: 2015-11-05 02:24:49 pm

2015-11-05 02:24:22 pm

Jake: That's kinda why I instantly brought the question up. We had already been talking about allowed categories for T2 before you rookies showed up (well Socrates didn't seem too interested so it was mostly me sussing them out). My conclusion from then (the front page of the guide has a summary) was that this game will probably warrant a whole bunch of potential categories because each difficulty level will always have differing routes for the majority of missions, because 100% is possible to define and even low%. Then after uncovering the seemingly big potential in rapid elevatoring and item hopping (both of which are very very tough to do optimally) and also because it was even back then suspected a save/load would be involved in any potion glitching, and perhaps even other more marginally useful boosts, e.g. NPC and slope boosts, it came clear segmented was probably justified too. Still there's no clear reason why money ILs (which is the only category with a fully loaded start although that doesn't always seem to matter much) in all 3 difficulty settings can't also be a thing. And 100% and low% ILs too.

Then there's the compatibility issues causing the necessity to allow for 2 version entries to exist side by side if anyone ever does 1.07. The only things I could pare off were 100% runs on normal or hard, low% runs on hard or expert, and also 100%/low% runs on 1.07 because the stats screen is different and is actually missing a few indicators. Also I'm thinking segmented could only be given 1 version slot, which means if someone "locks you out" because they ran 1.07 and you can't beat their time on 1.22 or whatever we just accept that?

Much of this is hypothetical for now. Anyway I agree that Socrates and I think the runners before him too (not sure) DID all treat RTA as practice for the real thing and I personally don't see a reason to not just go any% non-RTA for submitted runs. This makes sense because it leaves more space for multi-segmented runs. Also having both is an issue I agree.

Quote from jake:

afaik nobody runs hard difficulty and almost nobody runs expert, either 100% or any%, nor does anyone seem interested in a glitchless run

I used to think hard difficulty was out until Socrates did a few missions on it (they're on his page). There is an argument for keeping them, because most missions have differing loot goals and subgoals. I think it's mainly the open-ended nature of the missions that affords this many categories: every change in your postulates tends to affect routing, at least AFAICS, and a change in routes can let you collect items that change the route further. There is the question of Trail of Blood which will probably become a bit repetitive, but Tracing the Courier, in case someone hadn't noticed, has a completely different route for each difficulty. Another thing is I don't personally see the virtue of needing to have competition in every category - for me it's a big project (a Dark Project) that keeps on rollin' and the more runners just means the more ground can be covered. But I know that's not everyone. Arguably my philosophy is closer to the collective SDA philosophy as well, with speedrun.com/speedrunslive more representative of the other.

Reason nobody runs expert is just because normal difficulty isn't "finished" yet. In my mind at least. Expert requires more work but surely it's the same runners who are going to move into it later. Glitchless - very hard to define for this game, never even crossed my mind. There's no clear-cut OOB stuff even though we used that term for what happens on Ambushed.

T2 isn't nearly as RNG-heavy as some other games, e.g. Bioshock Infinite, which requires getting a specific gear drop some... was it 30 minutes in with low% chance to spawn. We have NOTHING like that. So yes, RNG does NOT bolster arguments for RTA either. And yes, timer is also never an issue.

BTW I don't know what the forum functions of speedrun.com are like but at least on SDA I don't tend to see a lot of squabbling or confusion about this stuff. On occasion no consensus is reached and so no-one tries to submit such categories, e.g. Earthbound 100%.

OneginIII: No, it's not confusing per se, but with soooo many other categories, we're just more than happy to reduce their count whenever opportunity is bestowed. And no, one trick isn't enough grounds for division when segmented is so difficult to say no to.

Keep doing your thing! Please stop thinking about record times already, just have fun! Smiley

Resets have always been a way to practise runs at first.

Socrates: The ISP seems like a concurrency event, so maybe it has nothing to do with where you're at on the map. The range of examples is pretty wide. The fact that jake could sometimes get it consistently made me think that maybe the same timed thing was always bound to happen on the same frame (when the potion's effect ended) which would explain why loading the same quicksave would result in getting the effect every time. The fact that, what you're saying now, is there's no necessity for the s/l, suggests that the s/l has nothing to do with it... but yeah it could be so many things.

Also we need to try to think of things that are only true for Soulforge seeing as that's the only mission where it happens: Karras' timed soliloquys. Spider bots. The mission is really big but probably not as big as Life. I dunno.

It's true that hitting screenshot did a thing, which was really probably another concurrency issue unaccounted for by the code. I never spent any time trying that under other circumstances, but I'll try to remember to when I get back to it.

On an unrelated note, do noisemaker arrows completely cancel the guards' ability to hear other noises? I just added that to the Guide but correct me if I'm not quite right.

Second unrelated thing, we should come up with the official term for the infinite speed potion glitch. I'd be perfectly happy with that term if it weren't for the same working with other potions too. I mean it might turn out it's just Soulforge and no-one will ever come up with a way to make an invisi potion more worthwhile, so it could be a non-issue... so I guess we could just keep calling it ISP like you said. (This guy's comments say he got help from his Internet Service Provider on the last mission... what?)

[b]Jake[/b]: That's kinda why I instantly brought the question up. We had already been talking about allowed categories for T2 before you rookies showed up (well Socrates didn't seem too interested so it was mostly me sussing them out). My conclusion from then (the front page of the guide has a summary) was that this game will probably warrant a whole bunch of potential categories because each difficulty level will always have differing routes for the majority of missions, because 100% is possible to define and even low%. Then after uncovering the seemingly big potential in rapid elevatoring and item hopping (both of which are very very tough to do optimally) and also because it was even back then suspected a save/load would be involved in any potion glitching, and perhaps even other more marginally useful boosts, e.g. NPC and slope boosts, it came clear segmented was probably justified too. Still there's no clear reason why money ILs (which is the only category with a fully loaded start although that doesn't always seem to matter much) in all 3 difficulty settings can't also be a thing. And 100% and low% ILs too.

Then there's the compatibility issues causing the necessity to allow for 2 version entries to exist side by side if anyone ever does 1.07. The only things I could pare off were 100% runs on normal or hard, low% runs on hard or expert, and also 100%/low% runs on 1.07 because the stats screen is different and is actually missing a few indicators. Also I'm thinking segmented could only be given 1 version slot, which means if someone "locks you out" because they ran 1.07 and you can't beat their time on 1.22 or whatever we just accept that?

Much of this is hypothetical for now. Anyway I agree that Socrates and I think the runners before him too (not sure) DID all treat RTA as practice for the real thing and I personally don't see a reason to not just go any% non-RTA for submitted runs. This makes sense because it leaves more space for multi-segmented runs. Also having both is an issue I agree.

[quote=jake] afaik nobody runs hard difficulty and almost nobody runs expert, either 100% or any%, nor does anyone seem interested in a glitchless run [/quote]

I used to think hard difficulty was out until Socrates did a few missions on it (they're on his page). There is an argument for keeping them, because most missions have differing loot goals and subgoals. I think it's mainly the open-ended nature of the missions that affords this many categories: every change in your postulates tends to affect routing, at least AFAICS, and a change in routes can let you collect items that change the route further. There is the question of Trail of Blood which will probably become a bit repetitive, but Tracing the Courier, in case someone hadn't noticed, has a completely different route for each difficulty. Another thing is I don't personally see the virtue of needing to have competition in every category - for me it's a big project (a Dark Project) that keeps on rollin' and the more runners just means the more ground can be covered. But I know that's not everyone. Arguably my philosophy is closer to the collective SDA philosophy as well, with speedrun.com/speedrunslive more representative of the other.

Reason nobody runs expert is just because normal difficulty isn't "finished" yet. In my mind at least. Expert requires more work but surely it's the same runners who are going to move into it later. Glitchless - very hard to define for this game, never even crossed my mind. There's no clear-cut OOB stuff even though we used that term for what happens on Ambushed.

T2 isn't nearly as RNG-heavy as some other games, e.g. Bioshock Infinite, which requires getting a specific gear drop some... was it 30 minutes in with low% chance to spawn. We have NOTHING like that. So yes, RNG does NOT bolster arguments for RTA either. And yes, timer is also never an issue.

BTW I don't know what the forum functions of speedrun.com are like but at least on SDA I don't tend to see a lot of squabbling or confusion about this stuff. On occasion no consensus is reached and so no-one tries to submit such categories, e.g. Earthbound 100%.

[b]OneginIII[/b]: No, it's not confusing per se, but with soooo many other categories, we're just more than happy to reduce their count whenever opportunity is bestowed. And no, one trick isn't enough grounds for division when segmented is so difficult to say no to.

Keep doing your thing! Please stop thinking about record times already, just have fun! :) Resets have always been a way to practise runs at first.

[b]Socrates[/b]: The ISP seems like a concurrency event, so maybe it has nothing to do with where you're at on the map. The range of examples is pretty wide. The fact that jake could sometimes get it consistently made me think that maybe the same timed thing was always bound to happen on the same frame (when the potion's effect ended) which would explain why loading the same quicksave would result in getting the effect every time. The fact that, what you're saying now, is there's no necessity for the s/l, suggests that the s/l has nothing to do with it... but yeah it could be so many things.

Also we need to try to think of things that are only true for Soulforge seeing as that's the only mission where it happens: Karras' timed soliloquys. Spider bots. The mission is really big but probably not as big as Life. I dunno.

It's true that hitting screenshot did a thing, which was really probably another concurrency issue unaccounted for by the code. I never spent any time trying that under other circumstances, but I'll try to remember to when I get back to it.

On an unrelated note, do noisemaker arrows completely cancel the guards' ability to hear other noises? I just added that to the Guide but correct me if I'm not quite right.

Second unrelated thing, we should come up with the official term for the infinite speed potion glitch. I'd be perfectly happy with that term if it weren't for the same working with other potions too. I mean it might turn out it's just Soulforge and no-one will ever come up with a way to make an invisi potion more worthwhile, so it could be a non-issue... so I guess we could just keep calling it ISP like you said. (This guy's comments say he got help from his Internet Service Provider on the last mission... what?)