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AquaTiger: 2006-05-31 07:32:25 pm
Never give up!
Yeah, I know I said long ago that these games would be too long to speedrun.

Well, after discovering a little trick in Wizardry 8 that improves speed drastically, I'm beginning to think that there are ways in other Wizardry games to speed things up to the point where a speedrun will be short enough to be accepted here.

I myself only have Wizardry 8, so I can't say much about the first seven games, but I do realize it would take quite a lot of planning and some luck to do a run of any of them.  (I say 'luck' because the treasure chests and shops in Wizardry 8 have random contents.)

So I open this topic with a couple of questions.  Who would be interested in seeing a speedrun of any game in the Wizardry series (I put this in the PC forum because of the later games, although I do believe the series overall has also spent time on other systems besides the PC itself), who thinks it's actually possible to get this below 8 or even 10 hours (if it were me doing the run, I wouldn't even try submitting anything slower), and is there any advice (character selection, spell/skill selection, special tricks, etc) anyone here would be willing to impart on anyone who'd try to speedrun a Wizardry game?

Edit: I guess I'll start.

For Wizardry 8 (and I'm not sure if this applies to other Wizardry games), in a break from standard RPG conventions, spells that deal statuses onto the target are more useful than spells than deal damage.  (I'm not even going into detail on spells that do both.)  See, when an enemy is suffering conditions, they're generally easier to hit, and some conditions, when placed upon monsters, allow melee attackers (I haven't seen it happen with ranged attackers) to deal extra multiples of damage.  Combine this with some good attackers and...... you get the picture.

Also, having either a hybrid or pure caster for each of the four general spellbooks is a smart idea.  I'd suggest two pure casters and two hybrid casters, personally.

Edit 2: Fine, fine, I'll tell the trick.  Maybe that'll get me a response.

The trick I thought of - and since I don't have any experience with the other games in the series, this may only apply for Wizardry 8 - is this.  Normally, after getting the party to run until Stamina's nearly depleted, standing around or walking is required to avoid making any characters unconscious (I'm not kidding - stamina depletion causes the 'unconscious' status, which is quite disastrous).  However, by running to near-depletion, then having the party camp and quickly interrupting it as soon as all Stamina bars are full, you can have the party run almost all of the time.  From personal experience with this trick, you can go quite fast through areas when doing this.  (If I have to visually demonstrate this trick with a video, I will.)

Also, skipping a whole lot of treasure would be required as well, but I figure that as pretty obvious.
Thread title:  
Vae Victus!
I was thinkink of Wiz8 speedrun (earlier parts are way to complex to complete and since you don't see enemies before you engage in combat with them, it'd consist of numerous unneeded boring battles). If you're running through most of the game, you won't collect much xp and your skills will suffer, so I think that the only option is to have solo or just 2 characters. What races/classes?

Rogue makes the good speedrunning character because of stealth ability, great damage (backstabbing) and good AC in later game. It suffers, however, from having no magic at all.
Ninja is rogue-like, but it has magic abilities, which may definitely help. Since most of the game will be fights, you have to make them quick which means killing easily or escaping (sleeping, paralyzing monsters and so on).
These classes (hobbit rogue and faerie ninja) are most recommended for Wiz8 solo games.
Another option is to swap classes (so that rogue can have magic), but this requires more xp and better planning.

If two chars are considered, rogue plus hybrid mage would make it. It can be rogue and ninja, also Wink

This run would require lots of saves (for better item generation or some difficult fights). Getting light sword would help (and it's easy to save scum for it in this special Bayin's chest, as long as you have certain level of course).

Any ideas for the beginning? Collecting xp but not levelling to much will help in getting to Arnika (easier enemies). What subquests are worth doing? For example, robbing a bank can help in early game (Bloodlust or Diamond Edge swords).
Never give up!
I had a long post of information but I accidentally deleted it so I'll get to the point.

Instead of starting with a rogue and a ninja, I recommend a samurai and a ninja.  Why?  The samurai gets better weapon choices last I checked, and more importantly, gets Lightning Strike, which gives a chance to hit four times in one attack (segmenting probably means you could manipulate for this effect to happen frequently).  Combined with either a status-affecting powder or a ninja spell, you can easily level tough targets that are otherwise hard to escape early in the game.  (And if you're going to use the Bloodlust sword, the Samurai does way better with it because a Rogue can't use it to backstab.)

You can switch the samurai for a rogue later, once your Sword skill is high enough and you have good enough equipment.
100% runs=great to watch
Count me in as another very interested, as well as having Wiz8 myself.  I think other Wizardries would be cool to have as well, there's such a variety of them out there that surely at least a couple would be doable---though a big chunk only got a Japanese release.

Fights can be kinda long, but that adds to the tension/epicness.  The main thing would be to determine what classes and how many characters you want to have as well as what difficulty level to play the game on...Hardest mode only allowing for an epic SingleSegment run as far as speedrunning would go.  For one thing, hidden items are always where they are...so if you know where to jiggle around with search mode on then you don't even need to wander for it with the skill pumped.  Character creation will also play a huge role.

Here be some sites of much info:

http://www.foerster.cc/wolfie/
http://www.flamestryke.com/wizardry8/flamestrykes_w8.html

Planning wise, this dwarfs Diablo II so badly it is hilarious.  More people need to download/play this game due to the extremely limited number of copies floating around the internet/made period due to SirTech's tragic death.
Vae Victus!
There were many samurai-rogue argues (lightning strike vs backstabbing) but still rogue is considered the best choise for a solo play. Samurai can learn spells but he is very poor and you have to train him patiently (that's what I always do - cast Light all the time yet with really slow progress). Rogue also gains levels quicker. But I must admit, I always prefer samurai in my team rather than rogue Wink

Another thing - NPCs. Two chars are quite required for Crock's quest (you can prevent character kidnapping by saving and loading immediately after picking up Marten's Idol or you can just ignore getting marten's helmet - this would make the game a lot quicker but I haven't tested how difficult would it be).
You got a deletion wish?
I'd like to see Wizs 1 & 6 (Proving Grounds & Bane) myself.

Trebor sux.
I love YaBB 1G - SP1!
I'm fairly certain Wizardry 1 could be done in under an hour.  The whole run would basically be levelling up to 11 or 12 so you have a chance of defeating Werdna.  (I'm assuming the i9 cheat is disallowed - with it, you could complete the game in a couple minutes).  I think the first five games are all fairly quick.  The later ones are longer, but I bet they could all be done in under 8 hours.
You got a deletion wish?
Quote:
I'm assuming the i9 cheat is disallowed - with it, you could complete the game in a couple minutes).

That and/or I-S (player below bishop getting xp).  Falling under beneficial, yeah I don't think it would.
Edit history:
Faskalia: 2007-07-23 11:04:52 am
Hmm, wiz7 could be done under 3h.

Some notes:

Get a party of 3 fighters, 1 Valkyrie and 2 fearies. Go to new city. Pick up the color coded waver. Go to the house with the security door (the one where you normally find the computer in) Use the waver on the security door.Kill the savant gaurds, level up the fearies. Now switch your fearies permanently from bard to thief and back between level ups.

Repeat until you have enough HP/MP and skills for the fearies. Next goal is to get them to ninjas asap and grab 2 canes of corpus from rattkin ruins. To grab 2 canes you need to break into the guild where blindmais is located FIRST. (So you need to break the door witheout the ring). Kill him and grab your cane. Then go the  courtyard and kill blindmais again for a second cane. Once your fearies have the canes you can start cross leveling 1 feary for speels.

I will post the needed actions to end end the game soon, but I need to check some things (bad memory :P). There is certainly speedrun potential, because you often need to know something, but the game never checks if you could actually know it. Example: You can walk up to father Rulae and tell him about the holy sacrament to get the legend map, without having been to the land of dreams before etc.

Edit:
Lets see:

-New City: Tell father Rulae holy sacrament to get the legend map. Use the comm-link device on the computer to get Vitalis device. Get the rebus egg from the museum. (Coins to access museum are somewhere in new city iirc.) We also get the wikkum boat going.
-Okgre Castle: Nothing to do here, unless you want the cane of corpus. If you want the cane, grab the  bonsai tree. (getting the bone comb cannot hurt either)
-Munkharama: We need the wickum powerglobe, unless getting through the see using LOTS and LOTS of stamina potions is faster.
-Land of Drems: Nothing to do here
-Ukypr: We need the commlink device from the Umpani New City detachment. So, do missions until you can use the teleporter, or break the doors. (breaking full doors seems impossible)
-Rattkin ruins: Not accesible, unless you got the bonsai tree from okgre castle. Get 2 cane of corpus.
-NYCTALINTH: nothing to do here
-Dane Tower: Get the coil of serpents
-witch Cave: Nothing to do here. The ELYSIAD is supposed to aid you in the last battle, but nor needed.
-Sphinx cave: get the Wand Majestik
-Dragon Cave, using the wikkum boat and coil of serpents we enter the dragon cave, but only to get to sky city Wink
-Sky City: We nee the globe ring from hte spaceship and while we are at its a good idea to get the light shield.
-Crypt isle: enter the tomb with wand majestik. Just get through here to the chamber of gorrors. If you have the cone comb you can use it to stop the ghost from hurting you.
-chamber of gorrors: get the jewel of the sun. You should have at least 1 gorror key. Use it to fight Ra-Sep-Re-Tep for some easy items. Use the jewel of the sun to get the tomb locket and use the legend map to get the skull key. get to the halls of the past
-halls of the past: big maze, just get through it Tongue and enter the crypt.
-It is always said that you need to visit every square here to advance. This is not true, you need to only step on certain squares. A good editor should help to point them out. Once you reach the astral domiae, use vitalis device. Answer her questions and head back to sky city.
-Sky city: Get to the spaceship and over to globe, or die together with vi. Whichever ending is faster Wink

Thats just a quick what to do list. Because there are no know helpful bugs in this game it should also be the minimum of things you have to do in order to reach one of the several endings.

EDIT2: I just had a look at old Blienmeis and wanted to share it and ask if someone knows any tricks that allow to defeat him. (I did it before, but only with extremely experienced partys ;))
Besides is incredible stats he also has a chance to flee every combat round of 75%. So you better be able to nail him in 4 or less rounds.
Vae Victus!
Wiz7 speedrun? Astonishing! Will it be pure Wiz7 or Wiz7 Gold? The first may be quite difficult to record (it's difficult to play without DOSbox). Are there some crucial changes between these versions? I haven't played Gold much (just wanted to see how it looks like).

I think we should split this topic because there will be mess soon Wink Any mod could help?
@Aqua Tiger

IIRC there are quite a number of stamina regen items. Especially one locket that is only available for females. If you get it early, you should be be able to have a "runner" in your party, that never runs out of stamina and just drags the other 5-7 chars with him Wink
Never give up!
Quote:
There were many samurai-rogue argues (lightning strike vs backstabbing) but still rogue is considered the best choise for a solo play. Samurai can learn spells but he is very poor and you have to train him patiently (that's what I always do - cast Light all the time yet with really slow progress). Rogue also gains levels quicker. But I must admit, I always prefer samurai in my team rather than rogue Wink


Well, true - if you're going truly solo, rogues are a better choice.  My specific mention of a samurai would only work in a two-character party.



Faskalia: Yeah, I did forget about those, but I don't think they're available until at LEAST Arnika.  My trick would still help until that point.
Edit history:
Ugm: 2008-11-27 04:29:16 am
Vae Victus!
I was wondering today, if faerie ninja, though, wouldn't be better choice for solo speedrun, since you have to kill Don Barlone to get the Astral Dominae (or can it be stolen?), so it's just a waste of Cane of Corpus Wink Of course, speedrunning means low level and this means that it may be too difficult to kill him. I have to finally get myself to test all of this Wink
Another idea is to totally omit Helm of Serenity quest branch (Shaman, Idol, Crock) and get some low level (so that they do us no harm in a battle while insane) or dead (the best option) NPCs to carry Destinae Dominus for us.

EDIT:

Well, it's not needed to bring up some char to carry DD since making insane won't do much harm (how can we attack ourselves?). And travelling through portal directly to the AP will minimize time of being insane. Mountain Wilderness shortcut is blocked only if you have 2 or more artifacts in our backpack, so setting up the portal first and then collecting all at once will be helpful.

I'm just wondering about whether it can be done (in reasonable time) or not (little time to play atm). Getting vital stealth skill pumped is easy but time-consuming. Watching a run where stealth is trained for an hour or more won't be fun...  But even getting past Gregor with untrained char seems impossible (many wasted hours and no luck in instakilling him).

And these long fights... if only SDA allowed to use Wiz 8 Fast mod Wink