The Mega Man 9 topic

2008-11-18 08:27:24 am

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from Satoryu:

a one phase kill on Twin Devil is something i've never done before. still, that's not taking me out of the competition. i'm still working on improving my own run.

If Zed does it in his run, and you can't do it, I'd say it does take you out of the competition, start practicing.

nate

2008-11-18 09:25:47 am

now now, zed may be slower at everything else besides twin devil.

>_>

Shadow Jacky

Edit history:

Shadow Jacky: 2008-11-18 01:11:39 pm

2008-11-18 12:38:05 pm

fucking .gif....

updated:

Magma
Plug
Wily 2

congrats to trevor and alucard for holding down their times for this long. hardly any improvements on the wii side. also lol at the wily 2 times. you're right ZED, no one plays that one too much.

also I have a question about a real time run of this. would pausing to clear your weapon off the screen still be allowed?

mikwuyma

2008-11-18 01:14:31 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from Shadow_Jacky:

also I have a question about a real time run of this. would pausing to clear your weapon off the screen still be allowed?

Why wouldn't it be? It would just take up time now, though pausing to pull off the twin devil one round kill is definitely worth it in a real-time run.

Sir VG

2008-11-18 02:57:52 pm

Fucking Weeaboo

Congratulations Satoryu. You've been linked on CrunchGear, AND sxephil on YouTube. Smiley

http://www.crunchgear.com/2008/11/17/can-you-beat-mega-man-9-in-less-than-25-minutes-this-guy-did/
(Mentioned on the links on the right and briefly in the video)

Satoryu

2008-11-18 03:33:13 pm

Visually Appealing

Quote from Satoryu:

wow. go go free publicity.

Shadow Jacky

2008-11-18 07:26:39 pm

fucking .gif....

"but we’ll never really know what the true minimum time necessary is until the TAS’ers take a shot at it."

in what? the year 2012?

nate

2008-11-18 07:33:19 pm

it will be here much sooner than you think. remember that modern sda is almost (might already be) five years old now.

JDHyatt

2008-11-18 08:55:19 pm

I'm the guy who complains yet never submits XD

I think he meant about TAS of this game in general,
But I could be wrong.

Trevor

2008-11-18 09:09:29 pm

wow, plug man in 1:22:33...my personal best is 1:22:51 with an unoptimized boss fight, so i was going to try and (most likely) beat the former 1:22:40 sooner or later. at 1:22:33, though, i'm not so sure about it but it may be worth giving a shot at some point.

VorpalEdge

2008-11-18 09:49:54 pm

welcome to the machine

Hey, at least the guy has a general idea about what the process is like. SDA has market penetration. Smiley

mikwuyma

2008-11-18 09:51:29 pm

My feelings on The Demon Rush

Quote from Trevor:

wow, plug man in 1:22:33...my personal best is 1:22:51 with an unoptimized boss fight, so i was going to try and (most likely) beat the former 1:22:40 sooner or later. at 1:22:33, though, i'm not so sure about it but it may be worth giving a shot at some point.

You know what's also worth giving a shot, submitting your Mega Man run Sad

Shadow Jacky

2008-11-18 09:53:09 pm

fucking .gif....

yeah I was referring to the TAS part of that quote.

Master ZED

2008-11-18 10:44:21 pm

Well, I have a NG SS that can be submitted! 23:41.

Sounds pretty good, right?

Well... that depends on how useful the shop M-Tank is. I didn't pick it up because I clicked Wily too fast. Sad

THANKFULLY, this was my original plan for a new game (which I had backed out on initially since the tank saved a pickup or two to restore my BHB for the Twin Devils... I don't think I restored anything else this time save a couple small boosts for C. Shot in Wily Castle 4 for certain lasers, which in hindsight was stupid; I should've run through them all and saved about 4-5 seconds minus what the knockback would cost... which may equal like, 1-2 seconds, I dunno, but still!), and the two big screws I picked up wasted all of 2 seconds or less to get (Tornado, last stretch, and Hornet, first breakable floor room; yes, that's only 40, I know. The other 10 were always planned to come from random pickups, since I haven't had a run yet that didn't see me pick up at least 6 small screws to cover the rest of the cost). I can just lie about this being intentional and say I tripped at Tornado Man's stage since the Hornet pickup was poorly done anyway. Who's gonna know in a few pages? No one reads these large-as-all-hell threads! Tongue

It'll also show how useful the second M-Tank truly is.

I had a 20 second lead on Satoryu's recent test run after Horny Man and each individual stages' time is shown save Wily (of course), so seeing it might be worth something in that regard. There's always YT, but if SDA will take it anyway despite the lack of a shop M-Tank, I'll make the transfer to DVD instead (just tell me what you guys want; another NG run, or submit this so I can get on with the SH run). With the mistakes I made, Wily 3's behavior, and Tornado Man's hatred for me (he did NOT like me in the rematch), I'm not sure if this run was going to break into the top 10 regardless of the run's biggest blunder.

EDIT: What I mean is, I could've gotten in, I just had too many errors by the run's end that the tank wasn't going to save me enough time AFAIK. I'll rewatch Wily Castle 3 and find out.

Well, I have a NG SS that can be submitted!  23:41.

Sounds pretty good, right?

Well... that depends on how useful the shop M-Tank is.  I didn't pick it up because I clicked Wily too fast. :(

THANKFULLY, this was my original plan for a new game (which I had backed out on initially since the tank saved a pickup or two to restore my BHB for the Twin Devils... I don't think I restored anything else this time save a couple small boosts for C. Shot in Wily Castle 4 for certain lasers, which in hindsight was stupid; I should've run through them all and saved about 4-5 seconds minus what the knockback would cost... which may equal like, 1-2 seconds, I dunno, but still!), and the two big screws I picked up wasted all of 2 seconds or less to get (Tornado, last stretch, and Hornet, first breakable floor room; yes, that's only 40, I know.  The other 10 were always planned to come from random pickups, since I haven't had a run yet that didn't see me pick up at least 6 small screws to cover the rest of the cost).  I can just lie about this being intentional and say I tripped at Tornado Man's stage since the Hornet pickup was poorly done anyway.  Who's gonna know in a few pages?  No one reads these large-as-all-hell threads! :P

It'll also show how useful the second M-Tank truly is.

I had a 20 second lead on Satoryu's recent test run after Horny Man and each individual stages' time is shown save Wily (of course), so seeing it might be worth something in that regard.  There's always YT, but if SDA will take it anyway despite the lack of a shop M-Tank, I'll make the transfer to DVD instead (just tell me what you guys want; another NG run, or submit this so I can get on with the SH run).  With the mistakes I made, Wily 3's behavior, and Tornado Man's hatred for me (he did NOT like me in the rematch), I'm not sure if this run was going to break into the top 10 regardless of the run's biggest blunder.

EDIT: What I mean is, I could've gotten in, I just had too many errors by the run's end that the tank wasn't going to save me enough time AFAIK.  I'll rewatch Wily Castle 3 and find out.

Satoryu

2008-11-18 10:55:11 pm

Visually Appealing

only a 3 second lead over my test run? don't bother. i know there's more room for improvement than that, mostly because of the M Can, and i'm confident the #10 spot can be claimed.

while i do get the screw in Hornet, the second screw i get (that's right. no E Can this time) is the second one in Plug Man.

Tiki

Edit history:

Tiki: 2008-11-18 11:35:49 pm

2008-11-18 11:02:51 pm

I don't even know what the fuck this is

Sounds like the 24:48 is getting buttfucked. Remember, guys -- the guys in the top 10 aren't from SDA or any other speedrunning community, so their times may look impressive, but their runs probably have as many mistakes in each level as a solid SS run at SDA has. I think my Mega Man 3 run or marth1's Mega Man 4 run is probably about the same quality as a run in the top 10.

Good work, guys! I'm going to throw my hat into this after the new year, MM3 and MM6 are keeping me pretty damn busy.

Master ZED

Edit history:

Master ZED: 2008-11-18 11:30:00 pm

2008-11-18 11:04:57 pm

Quote from Satoryu:

only a 3 second lead over my test run? don't bother.

I only asked because I have a paper to do, so agreed. I'll tape over it for the next attempts.

Quote from Satoryu:

while i do get the screw in Hornet, the second screw i get (that's right. no E Can this time) is the second one in Plug Man.

Why you got it in the first place instead of time attacking Wily Castle 4 until you knew what to do is beyond me. :\

As for Plug Man, if I could get the midair C. Shot reliably, I would get that one. As I see it though, I can just fall on the Tornado screw and be on my way. Less of a waste than backtracking, even if there is a speed increase in that room due to wind.

EDIT: Wow... I didn't pick up enough screws for the M-Tank anyway, so the run was already doomed. I didn't even notice. That's the first time it's ever happened. o_o

Satoryu

2008-11-19 07:10:53 am

Visually Appealing

Quote from Master ZED:

Quote from Satoryu:

while i do get the screw in Hornet, the second screw i get (that's right. no E Can this time) is the second one in Plug Man.

Why you got it in the first place instead of time attacking Wily Castle 4 until you knew what to do is beyond me. :\

easy: lack of confidence.

Master ZED

2008-11-19 11:49:24 am

I was gonna ask this since it will be several hours before I can answer the question myself (y'know, playing the game), but I think I answered it already; what precisely does the shop M-Tank help with?

The answer is C. Shot, but if you're bored, you can read about how I came to that conclusion.

Here's the thing; shopless runs are not beyond my ability whatsoever. As I stated prior, this was my original plan for a new game run (though NOT for Superhero, that's not a wise move whatsoever given the need, or at least my love, for Laser Trident) and I only changed when I saw the convenience factor of the mentioned Hornet and Tornado screws (well, actually the latter was the Plug screw until I unlearned the midair C. Shot). I use the shop M-Tank just prior to getting the second M-Tank because there's little point to using it before that point. One could say the T. Blow on the Uzi Joes just before the second anti-gravity room would be a key point since the possibility is there for two two-hit Tornado Blows versus Magma Man (it's the bottom of the pit and the immediate sides that allow it, not *just* the bottom), but disregarding said C. Shot, it would take just as much time to pick up weapon energy in WC2 in the underwater portion prior to the horrible low ceiling jump as it would to pick up the Plug screw. The Hornet screw could even be ignored for a half-second gain. I figure the following is needed between the WC3 tank and the main WC4 shaft, where I would use said tank in a shopless run:

Two Jewel Satellite (because it's damn helpful on that last WC3 stretch)
Some Laser Trident (very easy to have in normal mode; makes quick work of enemies between Satellites)
Some Magma Bazooka (saves a second with the hopper)
Five BHB (assuming no errors will be made in the Twin Devil fight)

The question then turns to BHB and T. Blow since if you lack the Tridents and Bazooka power, you likely screwed up bad elsewhere anyway and the run sucks.

Good use of Rush Jet ensures no T. Blow usage until the horrible room early in WC2 that has you jump up through a four-block high, one-block wide gap. You *could* use it in WC1 to avoid damage from that one shield tank, and then make up for it on the shark's midsection with charged Magma Bazooka since all parts of the shark take more damage (making him one of the few bosses a charged shot is worthwhile against), but that still loses time; T. Blow is the midsection's weakness precisely because of the spacing that causes the time loss with the Bazooka replacement finish. That's 1 for the gap room, 3 for the shark. Without luck or time loss, you won't have it for the Uzi Joes guarding the second anti-gravity room, which sucks.

BHB sees use twice; one for an Uzi Joe just after the gap room in WC2 and in the same stage later to take out some mines. The latter cannot be avoided in an optimal run, while the Joe might be workable with Laser Trident or Jewel Satellite (perhaps both, LT for the kill and JS after to defend against the shots he let out prior to death; a Time Attack would resolve this issue). I can't think of where you'd use the second BHB otherwise unless you go the 4 C. Shot/1 BHB kill route on the Changkey Dragon to save a C. Shot, given how valuable that weapon is in the first two stages:

1. First spike room in WC1 (one)
2. Changkey Dragon (five, minus one if BHB is used)
3. Rush Coil shortcut in the swinging platform/teleporter room (one)
4. Crossing the second spike bowl in WC2 (one); could be replaced by Rush Jet for < one second of time loss.
5. After the Uzi Joe I was just talking about to leap the ladder in that room (one); maybe half a second lost if a proper ladder-top jump is used instead?
6. Clock plant (five)

Thankfully, there's no use for it beyond the plant until WC4, but even one C. Shot for leeway would be very nice, making the BHB killshot on the dragon a viable option. Also thankfully, I don't see another use for BHB that another weapon can't replace, leaving a spare for the Twin Devils if the dragon BHB killshot isn't taken. If one can cut out the T. Blow at the Uzi Joes by matching the time lost to pick up the necessary weapon energy at WC2 to replace the one block wide gap usage through Laser Trident, then you have no good use for the M. Tank. It would only theoretically save one or two seconds minus the time taken for the Hornet screw (half a second, maybe, likely a little less), but the midair C. Shot in Plug Man's stage is an absolute necessity to make that happen from where I sit, otherwise it's up to the individual. It's not *that* difficult, but damn is it strict, and somewhat finicky. I think the placement of the floating enemy may be cause for it to fail in some instances... can't think of a way to force the necessary correction though. :\

Y'know, now that I'm thinking about it, the failure rate I have with making just 14 C. Shot work may be argument enough for the tank and it's just that no other player follows my strategy that I've seen that I had yet to reach that conclusion until I typed this all out. Making all 14 work perfectly isn't that difficult save the dragon (the Coil placement is different from Magma Man's and I frequently forget that in practice); the clock plant can be a forced ORKO through using damage invulnerability for a point-blank range position if he decides to be a jerk. Regardless, shit happens in single segment, and while shopless can definitely be done, it's... not something I'd recommend now.

So yeah, it's "required" alright... to cover for any C. Shot miscues. :\ It also allows one to use T. Blow at the two Uzi Joes in WC3 since the M-Tank after can be used versus Magma Man. It'd be nice to keep it until Plug Man, but he isn't that hard to hit with JS, Magma Bazooka will be full if you do screw up (not optimal, but better than the Mega Buster or anything else for that matter) and you don't need either of those weapons for Wily at all since C. Shot will be full for Wily 2... yet another reason why C. Shot may force the shop M-Tank.

So I guess my real question is... what was the reason for the shop M-Tank before I reached my own conclusion?

SUMMARY: I asked what the shop M-Tank was for, came to a conclusion I had not heard before (to cover for C. Shot errors), and am now curious about what the original reasoning was.

EDIT: Removed an unnecessary comment. ^_^

I was gonna ask this since it will be several hours before I can answer the question myself (y'know, playing the game), but I think I answered it already; what precisely does the shop M-Tank help with?

The answer is C. Shot, but if you're bored, you can read about how I came to that conclusion.

Here's the thing; shopless runs are not beyond my ability whatsoever.  As I stated prior, this was my original plan for a new game run (though NOT for Superhero, that's not a wise move whatsoever given the need, or at least my love, for Laser Trident) and I only changed when I saw the convenience factor of the mentioned Hornet and Tornado screws (well, actually the latter was the Plug screw until I unlearned the midair C. Shot).  I use the shop M-Tank just prior to getting the second M-Tank because there's little point to using it before that point.  One could say the T. Blow on the Uzi Joes just before the second anti-gravity room would be a key point since the possibility is there for two two-hit Tornado Blows versus Magma Man (it's the bottom of the pit and the immediate sides that allow it, not *just* the bottom), but disregarding said C. Shot, it would take just as much time to pick up weapon energy in WC2 in the underwater portion prior to the horrible low ceiling jump as it would to pick up the Plug screw.  The Hornet screw could even be ignored for a half-second gain.  I figure the following is needed between the WC3 tank and the main WC4 shaft, where I would use said tank in a shopless run:

Two Jewel Satellite (because it's damn helpful on that last WC3 stretch)
Some Laser Trident (very easy to have in normal mode; makes quick work of enemies between Satellites)
Some Magma Bazooka (saves a second with the hopper)
Five BHB (assuming no errors will be made in the Twin Devil fight)

The question then turns to BHB and T. Blow since if you lack the Tridents and Bazooka power, you likely screwed up bad elsewhere anyway and the run sucks.

Good use of Rush Jet ensures no T. Blow usage until the horrible room early in WC2 that has you jump up through a four-block high, one-block wide gap.  You *could* use it in WC1 to avoid damage from that one shield tank, and then make up for it on the shark's midsection with charged Magma Bazooka since all parts of the shark take more damage (making him one of the few bosses a charged shot is worthwhile against), but that still loses time; T. Blow is the midsection's weakness precisely because of the spacing that causes the time loss with the Bazooka replacement finish.  That's 1 for the gap room, 3 for the shark.  Without luck or time loss, you won't have it for the Uzi Joes guarding the second anti-gravity room, which sucks.

BHB sees use twice; one for an Uzi Joe just after the gap room in WC2 and in the same stage later to take out some mines.  The latter cannot be avoided in an optimal run, while the Joe might be workable with Laser Trident or Jewel Satellite (perhaps both, LT for the kill and JS after to defend against the shots he let out prior to death; a Time Attack would resolve this issue).  I can't think of where you'd use the second BHB otherwise unless you go the 4 C. Shot/1 BHB kill route on the Changkey Dragon to save a C. Shot, given how valuable that weapon is in the first two stages:

1. First spike room in WC1 (one)
2. Changkey Dragon (five, minus one if BHB is used)
3. Rush Coil shortcut in the swinging platform/teleporter room (one)
4. Crossing the second spike bowl in WC2 (one); could be replaced by Rush Jet for < one second of time loss.
5. After the Uzi Joe I was just talking about to leap the ladder in that room (one); maybe half a second lost if a proper ladder-top jump is used instead?
6. Clock plant (five)

Thankfully, there's no use for it beyond the plant until WC4, but even one C. Shot for leeway would be very nice, making the BHB killshot on the dragon a viable option.  Also thankfully, I don't see another use for BHB that another weapon can't replace, leaving a spare for the Twin Devils if the dragon BHB killshot isn't taken.  If one can cut out the T. Blow at the Uzi Joes by matching the time lost to pick up the necessary weapon energy at WC2 to replace the one block wide gap usage through Laser Trident, then you have no good use for the M. Tank.  It would only theoretically save one or two seconds minus the time taken for the Hornet screw (half a second, maybe, likely a little less), but the midair C. Shot in Plug Man's stage is an absolute necessity to make that happen from where I sit, otherwise it's up to the individual.  It's not *that* difficult, but damn is it strict, and somewhat finicky.  I think the placement of the floating enemy may be cause for it to fail in some instances... can't think of a way to force the necessary correction though. :\

Y'know, now that I'm thinking about it, the failure rate I have with making just 14 C. Shot work may be argument enough for the tank and it's just that no other player follows my strategy that I've seen that I had yet to reach that conclusion until I typed this all out.  Making all 14 work perfectly isn't that difficult save the dragon (the Coil placement is different from Magma Man's and I frequently forget that in practice); the clock plant can be a forced ORKO through using damage invulnerability for a point-blank range position if he decides to be a jerk.  Regardless, shit happens in single segment, and while shopless can definitely be done, it's... not something I'd recommend now.

So yeah, it's "required" alright... to cover for any C. Shot miscues. :\ It also allows one to use T. Blow at the two Uzi Joes in WC3 since the M-Tank after can be used versus Magma Man.  It'd be nice to keep it until Plug Man, but he isn't that hard to hit with JS, Magma Bazooka will be full if you do screw up (not optimal, but better than the Mega Buster or anything else for that matter) and you don't need either of those weapons for Wily at all since C. Shot will be full for Wily 2... yet another reason why C. Shot may force the shop M-Tank.

So I guess my real question is... what [i]was[/i] the reason for the shop M-Tank before I reached my own conclusion?

SUMMARY: I asked what the shop M-Tank was for, came to a conclusion I had not heard before (to cover for C. Shot errors), and am now curious about what the original reasoning was.

EDIT: Removed an unnecessary comment. ^_^

65

2008-11-19 01:22:34 pm

A fast alternative to the mid-shark fight would be to shoot one Laser Trident on both spawners and finish it off with Tornado Blow, in case you need a tornado blow for something else than the boss fight. If the problem is with the LT ammo, it can be easily saved on lots of places using rapid plama instead, like on those big hoppers that take and deal relatively large amount of damage. No idea what they're called, though. Using MB on the ones at the start of WC 3 or 4 (the one with the shafts).

Another thing (I'm not sure if it's beeen mentioned already or not) would be to replace the Concrete Shot in Wily 1's second room with Rush Coil; it's about the same and CS has a tighter budget than RJ, but you probably knew this one already. Just mentioning it to prevent what happened with the MMX4 run. Of course my I could remember wrong and CS wasn't used, but I'm pretty sure it was. I don't have the run on my computer right now so I can't check.

Satoryu

2008-11-19 02:57:22 pm

Visually Appealing

Zed: the shop M Can is for Tornado Blow. i would think you'd want to get as much mileage out of that weapon (and every weapon, really) as possible. with my current route, i'm out of TB before the Shark. and i can only realistically see one instance being cut out and saved for the part in Wily 3 with the ladders and Joes.

CS has never really been an issue for me, though. i've pretty much always been able to make it through Wily 1 and 2 with enough ammo. but the 4CS/1BHB for the Wily 1 Changkey Dragon sounds like a very good idea.

Master ZED

2008-11-19 03:42:25 pm

I don't stress Rush Jet as much in normal mode as I feel must be done in Superhero (too many shield tanks would otherwise eat both time and precious Laser Trident right at the start, so a dangerous, energy-taxing flight starting at the first gap appears required for maximum speed... this strategy may be revisable), so I could include a T. Blow at the second spike/Tornado room as in your run... but you use Rush Jet immediately after anyway, eliminating the time gain entirely since you still end up waiting on Rush. The Rush Coil/T. Blow prior was also negated by having to take out the shield tank, whereas I Jet right over it straight to the ladder. I could do the one at the twin shield tank room to avoid damage I suppose, since any C. Shot errors would require the use of the M-Tank to get a ORKO on the clock plant regardless; that ammo boost would last through to Magma Man.

This leaves... two spare I think? There's at least one other instance where Rush Coil/T. Blow could be used where C. Shot is the normal shortcut instead (teleporters/swinging platform), as a Mega Coil is indisputably faster than the latter... maybe the shield tank leap prior to the WC1 boss room would be good too, as that normally requires an awkward Rush Jet evasion (short off-ladder hop, T. Blow, leap over; should be nice and clean given his distance from the ladder). I'd save one or two for the boss, but there's not much benefit to doing so with how little ammo there is to spare. Plug Ball and the Mega Buster (maybe Rush Coil too?) have that covered anyway.

So tell me how this sounds for T. Blow use:

WC1
1. Twin shield tank room (3 left)
2. Teleporters/swinging platform (2 left, also saves a C. Shot)
3. Shield Tank jump (1 left)

WC2
1. One-block-wide gap room (zero left)
M-Tank
2. Shark sub, midsection (one left; finish with one Laser Trident (there really isn't a reason not to walk to the side during T. Blows now that I think about it, and you don't lose time with the intermissions anyway no matter where you are; whichever side is safest to attack from should be the one used))

WC3
Uzi Joes prior to second anti-gravity room (zero left)

WC4
M-Tank
Magma Man (one left at absolutely perfect efficiency, but very unlikely as it requires two double hits in a row; assume zero left)

I don't stress Rush Jet as much in normal mode as I feel must be done in Superhero (too many shield tanks would otherwise eat both time and precious Laser Trident right at the start, so a dangerous, energy-taxing flight starting at the first gap appears required for maximum speed... this strategy may be revisable), so I could include a T. Blow at the second spike/Tornado room as in your run... but you use Rush Jet immediately after anyway, eliminating the time gain entirely since you still end up waiting on Rush.  The Rush Coil/T. Blow prior was also negated by having to take out the shield tank, whereas I Jet right over it straight to the ladder.  I could do the one at the twin shield tank room to avoid damage I suppose, since any C. Shot errors would require the use of the M-Tank to get a ORKO on the clock plant regardless; that ammo boost would last through to Magma Man.

This leaves... two spare I think?  There's at least one other instance where Rush Coil/T. Blow could be used where C. Shot is the normal shortcut instead (teleporters/swinging platform), as a Mega Coil is indisputably faster than the latter... maybe the shield tank leap prior to the WC1 boss room would be good too, as that normally requires an awkward Rush Jet evasion (short off-ladder hop, T. Blow, leap over; should be nice and clean given his distance from the ladder).  I'd save one or two for the boss, but there's not much benefit to doing so with how little ammo there is to spare.  Plug Ball and the Mega Buster (maybe Rush Coil too?) have that covered anyway.

So tell me how this sounds for T. Blow use:

WC1
1. Twin shield tank room (3 left)
2. Teleporters/swinging platform (2 left, also saves a C. Shot)
3. Shield Tank jump (1 left)

WC2
1. One-block-wide gap room (zero left)
M-Tank
2. Shark sub, midsection (one left; finish with one Laser Trident (there really isn't a reason not to walk to the side during T. Blows now that I think about it, and you don't lose time with the intermissions anyway no matter where you are; whichever side is safest to attack from should be the one used))

WC3
Uzi Joes prior to second anti-gravity room (zero left)

WC4
M-Tank
Magma Man (one left at absolutely perfect efficiency, but very unlikely as it requires two double hits in a row; assume zero left)

Satoryu

2008-11-19 04:02:21 pm

Visually Appealing

Quote from Master ZED:

so I could include a T. Blow at the second spike/Tornado room as in your run... but you use Rush Jet immediately after anyway, eliminating the time gain entirely since you still end up waiting on Rush.

i really need to get this straight: Rush Jet is slower than running on the ground, right? if so, my method is better because i'm using RJ less. also, there's the refill right after that jump, which puts you back to full.

Quote from Master ZED:

I'd save one or two for the boss, but there's not much benefit to doing so with how little ammo there is to spare. Plug Ball and the Mega Buster (maybe Rush Coil too?) have that covered anyway.

i decided Mazooka is the best way to start the spike ball boss, using the buster and Plug Ball afterwards.

Quote from Master ZED:

2. Teleporters/swinging platform (2 left, also saves a C. Shot)

meh. CS sounds better.

Quote from Master ZED:

3. Shield Tank jump (1 left)

definitely not. RJ is fine for that guy.

it's more like this with my plans:

W1:
Third room (get the weapon pickup right after, so still full ammo)
Twin shield guy room Mega Coil (3 left)
W2:
One block gap room (2 left)
First trip through the zig zag room at the end (1 left)
Shark middle (use M Can, 1 left)
W3:
Twin Joe room (none left)
W4:
Use M Can for Magma Man

[quote="Master ZED"]
so I could include a T. Blow at the second spike/Tornado room as in your run... but you use Rush Jet immediately after anyway, eliminating the time gain entirely since you still end up waiting on Rush.  [/quote]

i really need to get this straight: Rush Jet is slower than running on the ground, right? if so, my method is better because i'm using RJ less. also, there's the refill right after that jump, which puts you back to full.

[quote="Master ZED"]I'd save one or two for the boss, but there's not much benefit to doing so with how little ammo there is to spare.  Plug Ball and the Mega Buster (maybe Rush Coil too?) have that covered anyway.[/quote]

i decided Mazooka is the best way to start the spike ball boss, using the buster and Plug Ball afterwards.

[quote="Master ZED"]
2. Teleporters/swinging platform (2 left, also saves a C. Shot)[/quote]

meh. CS sounds better.

[quote="Master ZED"]3. Shield Tank jump (1 left)[/quote]

definitely not. RJ is fine for that guy.

it's more like this with my plans:

W1:
Third room (get the weapon pickup right after, so still full ammo)
Twin shield guy room Mega Coil (3 left)
W2:
One block gap room (2 left)
First trip through the zig zag room at the end (1 left)
Shark middle (use M Can, 1 left)
W3:
Twin Joe room (none left)
W4:
Use M Can for Magma Man

65

2008-11-19 04:46:33 pm

Quote from Satoryu:

i really need to get this straight: Rush Jet is slower than running on the ground, right?

I think not. RJ is as fast as walking and this is my reasoning why I came to that conclusion:

Jumping is as fast as walking; this has already been proven. Likewise, your position on RJ can be pretty much anywhere on the RJ. Now, if you keep jumping, why don't you fall off of RJ (haven't tested extensively, though, and if proven wrong you're right instead)? As long as you can't jump in front of the moving RJ once you've jumped on it, walking cannot be faster than RJ.

That is, unless the game starts to pull off some weird stuff like MMIIGB wherein you can jump off RJ even though the speed is exactly the same by doing very small jumps rapidly.

Master ZED

2008-11-19 04:49:31 pm

Quote from Satoryu:

i really need to get this straight: Rush Jet is slower than running on the ground, right?

If there's a speed advantage on the ground, you lost it like, 10 times over at least. It's very minimal and wouldn't be worth the effort in this case. Think about it; why would you use it in Hornet Man's stage if it were really so slow to make a difference at that short a dash? You wouldn't; you'd be encouraged to run it because of the time loss, but the only verifier that brought it up wasn't even sure if that was really faster than an optimal flight. I'd say if it is slower, then it's as slow as when you're not on the ground (jumping), and that isn't noticeably slower either.

(I'd say the Hornet dash is faster depending on where you have to fall since you can't stand on the tops of the rollers; they zip you off, so much like C. Shot against the totem poles in Magma Man (more like that one pole), it might prove helpful.)

Quote from Satoryu:

i decided Mazooka is the best way to start the spike ball boss, using the buster and Plug Ball afterwards.

Problem is, you have to charge it for it to do any good. Small shots will be negated unless you get stubborn, ultimately losing time, and the ability to ignore damage invulnerability on the same shot doesn't carry over to the spike balls (no insta-kills). It might be fast enough to work anyway to a point, I'd have to try it myself, but I don't think more than two shots would be worth it if it does.

Quote from Satoryu:

it's more like this with my plans:

W1:
Third room (get the weapon pickup right after, so still full ammo)
Twin shield guy room Mega Coil (3 left)
W2:
One block gap room (2 left)
First trip through the zig zag room at the end (1 left)
Shark middle (use M Can, 1 left)
W3:
Twin Joe room (none left)
W4:
Use M Can for Magma Man

Didn't think about the zig zag room and it would work instead of replacing the C. Shot in WC1, but the placement is awkward to me. Why the first end? A BHB would suffice there, though it depends on where the M-Tank is used. For you, since you use it at the shark, BHB would work perfectly, and with one shot saved from the dragon, I'd also have enough ammo not to use the tank until then as well. T. Blow could then be used to clear the room on the second visit, eliminating the hassle of putting up with that one shooter if the hopper kill goes bad. That also leaves five spare BHB's, so the Joe after the dreaded gap room could be leveled and BHB could be used for the first Wily boss in combination with Magma Bazooka (it can only affect two at a time, but that still makes it a third weapon that can attack more than one ball at once).

Can't really think of anything else it's good for at the moment. :\

[quote="Satoryu"]i really need to get this straight: Rush Jet is slower than running on the ground, right?[/quote]If there's a speed advantage on the ground, you lost it like, 10 times over at least.  It's very minimal and wouldn't be worth the effort in this case.  Think about it; why would you use it in Hornet Man's stage if it were really so slow to make a difference at that short a dash?  You wouldn't; you'd be encouraged to run it because of the time loss, but the only verifier that brought it up wasn't even sure if that was really faster than an optimal flight.  I'd say if it is slower, then it's as slow as when you're not on the ground (jumping), and that isn't noticeably slower either.

(I'd say the Hornet dash is faster depending on where you have to fall since you can't stand on the tops of the rollers; they zip you off, so much like C. Shot against the totem poles in Magma Man (more like that one pole), it might prove helpful.)

[quote="Satoryu"]i decided Mazooka is the best way to start the spike ball boss, using the buster and Plug Ball afterwards.[/quote]Problem is, you have to charge it for it to do any good.  Small shots will be negated unless you get stubborn, ultimately losing time, and the ability to ignore damage invulnerability on the same shot doesn't carry over to the spike balls (no insta-kills).  It might be fast enough to work anyway to a point, I'd have to try it myself, but I don't think more than two shots would be worth it if it does.

[quote="Satoryu"]
it's more like this with my plans:

W1:
Third room (get the weapon pickup right after, so still full ammo)
Twin shield guy room Mega Coil (3 left)
W2:
One block gap room (2 left)
First trip through the zig zag room at the end (1 left)
Shark middle (use M Can, 1 left)
W3:
Twin Joe room (none left)
W4:
Use M Can for Magma Man
[/quote]Didn't think about the zig zag room and it would work instead of replacing the C. Shot in WC1, but the placement is awkward to me.  Why the first end?  A BHB would suffice there, though it depends on where the M-Tank is used.  For you, since you use it at the shark, BHB would work perfectly, and with one shot saved from the dragon, I'd also have enough ammo not to use the tank until then as well.  T. Blow could then be used to clear the room on the second visit, eliminating the hassle of putting up with that one shooter if the hopper kill goes bad.  That also leaves five spare BHB's, so the Joe after the dreaded gap room could be leveled and BHB could be used for the first Wily boss in combination with Magma Bazooka (it can only affect two at a time, but that still makes it a third weapon that can attack more than one ball at once).

Can't really think of anything else it's good for at the moment. :\