The Legend of Zelda--all categories

2012-12-20 03:29:12 pm

Pudding%

Are Bomb and Arrow upgrades still required in LttP? I'm pretty sure at one point they weren't, but it's been a while since I've bothered to check...

Also, I'm thinking the Magic Shield probably should be included since it's only consumable if you're a Like-Like Tongue

Darkwing Duck

2012-12-20 06:44:55 pm

Highly Evolved

Interesting on the second quest. In my opinion, so long as you pick up all heart containers, you can spend them if you want.

I do know that you have to get the magic upgrade in LttP, which is just doubling your magic. Here, you just double your bombs.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-01-04 01:33:42 pm

presjpolk: 2013-01-04 01:29:39 pm

2013-01-04 01:29:22 pm

HELLO!

Anyway my view is that if you can buy/collect unlimited amounts of something, then it's not something you should have to collect for a 100%. So I exclude bait (though obviously it's required to complete the game barring a moblin skip), magic shield, potion (but not letter, that should be required), keys, rupees (such as from secrets). But if everyone else wants to include shield I'm not going to kick a fuss*.

EDIT: Just remembered that bait isn't unlimited. You only buy it at most twice. So... ok maybe it should be required, but just not to re-buy.

Seems to me bomb upgrades are in now that Hippo is buying them. I gather they aren't mandatory in LttP because they're just a total freaking grinding pain in LttP. But here they're pretty straightforward. At least in the first quest you have 100 secrets not that far from both levels where they're bought.

Does anyone really want to include maps and compasses? I don't have my dungeon maps with me, as I'm posting this from the office, but I imagine it adds a fair number of keys to get them, perhaps so many so that Solairflaire's magic key-early strat becomes a lot more compelling. Heh, that may even be a reason to require them: oddly make 100% a high-skill category.

* I'll just cry because I can't afford as many potions if I have to buy it, though I guess I can hope it'll help against fireballs in 8, and save me a potion.

Anyway my view is that if you can buy/collect unlimited amounts of something, then it's not something you should have to collect for a 100%.  So I exclude bait (though obviously it's required to complete the game barring a moblin skip), magic shield, potion (but not letter, that should be required), keys, rupees (such as from secrets).  But if everyone else wants to include shield I'm not going to kick a fuss*.

EDIT: Just remembered that bait isn't unlimited. You only buy it at most twice.  So... ok maybe it should be required, but just not to re-buy.

Seems to me bomb upgrades are in now that Hippo is buying them.  I gather they aren't mandatory in LttP because they're just a total freaking grinding pain in LttP. But here they're pretty straightforward.  At least in the first quest you have 100 secrets not that far from both levels where they're bought.

Does anyone really want to include maps and compasses?  I don't have my dungeon maps with me, as I'm posting this from the office, but I imagine it adds a fair number of keys to get them, perhaps so many so that Solairflaire's magic key-early strat becomes a lot more compelling.  Heh, that may even be a reason to require them: oddly make 100% a high-skill category.

* I'll just cry because I can't afford as many potions if I have to buy it, though I guess I can hope it'll help against fireballs in 8, and save me a potion.

Blazeingphoenix

Edit history:

Blazeingphoenix: 2013-01-04 03:20:29 pm

Blazeingphoenix: 2013-01-04 02:31:33 pm

2013-01-04 02:30:46 pm

Whatz Up everyone.

Well, my opinion on 100% for The Legend of Zelda is about the same as I showed in the other discussion, which is getting all Hearts, getting all inventory item at least once (since bait is used and bombs could run out resulting in the bombs not showing up in the end if occured), all dungeon items and power bracelet should count (Red candle, the book, and magical key, both boomerangs, ect.), all Maps, all Compasses and all Keys shouldn't count, magic shield I don't care either way, and Bomb Upgrades shouldn't count.

I agree that the Bomb Upgrades aren't that difficult to get, but can add some time, especially if you don't have enough rupees. I did a run earlier today w/ the Bomb Upgrade and was only about 20 rupees short, which only took about a minute for me to get; also, I had to get to the Old Man, wait for the text finish, spend the rupees, and get back on the normal route to continue the quest. With all that, it added about 3 to 4 minutes added to my PB. [And I agree that for ALttP, since there's some much to upgrade, it shouldn't be counted, where as Zelda 1, only has two and may be counted].

As for the bait, I think it'll kinda be stupid to Re-buy the bait, since it was already gotten and is only needed for one point in the first quest. Although, I would understand if one would need to reclaim it, since it does show in the inventory and most 100% runs in games require a Full Inventory.

And for the shield, I always get it in my runs because it helps in Dungeon/Level 6, and helps in the final dungeon [I'm still not that great at playing the game yet]. I think if the Bomb Upgrade is required (which doesn't show up on in the inventory), I don't see why the shield shouldn't be required (cause it doesn't show up either, and the bomb upgrade increases the amount of bombs needed, and the shield adds protection for Link against weak Fireballs, or whatever it is). But if it's not required, I wouldn't care as much since I could practice w/out it and use the rupees spent on it to either help bomb upgrade, or even re-buying the bait if required.

Overall, I don't care if shield counts or not, kinda against bombs capacity is needed increasing but can still do if needed, and Bait SHOULDN'T be re-bought [and I really don't want Maps, Compasses, and all small keys shouldn't be required]. I can't wait to see what will become official for 100% for the 1st quest. Also, since I'm still new to speedrunning and the whole 100% deal, I don't expect my opinions to matter As much, but I hope it helps w/ what should and shouldn't count.

Well, my opinion on 100% for The Legend of Zelda is about the same as I showed in the other discussion, which is getting all Hearts, getting all inventory item at least once (since bait is used and bombs could run out resulting in the bombs not showing up in the end if occured), all dungeon items and power bracelet should count (Red candle, the book, and magical key, both boomerangs, ect.), all Maps, all Compasses and all Keys shouldn't count, magic shield I don't care either way, and Bomb Upgrades shouldn't count.

I agree that the Bomb Upgrades aren't that difficult to get, but can add some time, especially if you don't have enough rupees. I did a run earlier today w/ the Bomb Upgrade and was only about 20 rupees short, which only took about a minute for me to get; also, I had to get to the Old Man, wait for the text finish, spend the rupees, and get back on the normal route to continue the quest. With all that, it added about 3 to 4 minutes added to my PB. [And I agree that for ALttP, since there's some much to upgrade, it shouldn't be counted, where as Zelda 1, only has two and may be counted].

As for the bait, I think it'll kinda be stupid to Re-buy the bait, since it was already gotten and is only needed for one point in the first quest. Although, I would understand if one would need to reclaim it, since it does show in the inventory and most 100% runs in games require a Full Inventory.

And for the shield, I always get it in my runs because it helps in Dungeon/Level 6, and helps in the final dungeon [I'm still not that great at playing the game yet]. I think if the Bomb Upgrade is required (which doesn't show up on in the inventory), I don't see why the shield shouldn't be required (cause it doesn't show up either, and the bomb upgrade increases the amount of bombs needed, and the shield adds protection for Link against weak Fireballs, or whatever it is). But if it's not required, I wouldn't care as much since I could practice w/out it and use the rupees spent on it to either help bomb upgrade, or even re-buying the bait if required.

Overall, I don't care if shield counts or not, kinda against bombs capacity is needed increasing but can still do if needed, and Bait SHOULDN'T be re-bought [and I really don't want Maps, Compasses, and all small keys shouldn't be required].  I can't wait to see what will become official for 100% for the 1st quest. Also, since I'm still new to speedrunning and the whole 100% deal, I don't expect my opinions to matter As much, but I hope it helps w/ what should and shouldn't count.

presjpolk

Edit history:

presjpolk: 2013-01-04 05:13:25 pm

2013-01-04 05:08:39 pm

HELLO!

Both boomerangs would be out of step with usual SDA definitions, as far as I can tell, since one replaces the other (heck; one route out there does 2 before 1, so....). Same reason Blue Ring absolutely isn't needed.

And I don't see what how useful something is has to do with whether it should be part of a 100% definition, to be honest. I actually bought a red potion *and* a blue potion in my PB but I don't think they should be required, heh.

It's just... what is the shield more like? Is it more like the keys and potions, which are consumed and replaced? Or is it more like the bait or the bomb upgrades?

You can't *lose* the bomb upgrades. They're permanent. You have that new maximum forever. You can lose the shield.

Darkwing Duck

2013-01-04 05:24:12 pm

Highly Evolved

Don't need the lesser boomerang because it's replaced by the magical boomerang. Same with white sword. There is precedence for this in other Zelda games. Blue candle, too, for that matter, but it's generally faster to get that than to skip it.

Rebuying the bait is really not needed.

Maps and compasses are a collection thing. They're generally not a 100% item in SDA terms.

I think you were asking about best time for 100%. I did a 42:00 and don't really have any plans of doing 100% in any capacity since I dislike the category. That's the best that I'm aware of, and I didn't use Up+A.

Blazeingphoenix

Edit history:

Blazeingphoenix: 2013-01-04 07:14:52 pm

Blazeingphoenix: 2013-01-04 07:13:39 pm

Blazeingphoenix: 2013-01-04 07:13:15 pm

2013-01-04 07:13:05 pm

Whatz Up everyone.

Oh, I didn't know you could get the Magical Sword and Magical Boomerang w/out the first stuff (white sword, and wood boomerang), never tried, and I think everyone won't mind saying bait isn't needed. And I never thought of the shield like that, like the keys and potions since it can be lost like the other, as well as, didn't think of the Bomb Capacities upgrade as permanent.
So would everyone agree that The Legend of Zelda 100%= Everything except needing to pick up lower level stuff [Wood boomerang, Blue Ring, White Sword, and Blue Candle [but like Darkwing Duck said, Blue Candle can still help more than not], w/out needing to re-buying the bait, and w/out needing the shield.

***So things needed by the end of the game: All Hearts [16 Total Life], Raft, Magical Key, Red Ring, Stepladder, Book, Power Bracelet, Magical Boomerang, Both Bomb Upgrades, Bow w/ Silver Arrows [although normal arrows is needed for Gohma], Red Candle, Whistle, Letter [But Red or Blue Medicine can work too], Magic Wand, and Magical Sword* <--- Anyone agree or disagree and would like to add and/or subtract something from the list?***

Oh, I didn't know you could get the Magical Sword and Magical Boomerang w/out the first stuff (white sword, and wood boomerang), never tried, and I think everyone won't mind saying bait isn't needed. And I never thought of the shield like that, like  the keys and potions since it can be lost like the other, as well as, didn't think of the Bomb Capacities upgrade as permanent.
     So would everyone agree that The Legend of Zelda 100%= Everything except needing to pick up lower level stuff [Wood boomerang, Blue Ring, White Sword, and Blue Candle [but like Darkwing Duck said, Blue Candle can still help more than not], w/out needing to re-buying the bait, and w/out needing the shield.

***So things needed by the end of the game: All Hearts [16 Total Life], Raft, Magical Key, Red Ring, Stepladder, Book, Power Bracelet, Magical Boomerang, Both Bomb Upgrades, Bow w/ Silver Arrows [although normal arrows is needed for Gohma], Red Candle, Whistle, Letter [But Red or Blue Medicine can work too], Magic Wand, and Magical Sword*   <--- Anyone agree or disagree and would like to add and/or subtract something from the list?***

Darkwing Duck

2013-01-04 07:36:01 pm

Highly Evolved

For second quest, it's been debated whether or not you have to use rupees for money or life guy. I think there are three in 100% that you have to pass.

presjpolk

2013-01-04 09:26:49 pm

HELLO!

Darkwing: Come to think of it, spending the heart on the 2nd quest is a lot like spending the bait. A lot. So spending it should be fine? I just changed my mind.

And Blazeingphoenix, I agree with that.

AlecK47

2013-01-04 09:57:01 pm

I like Blazeingphoenix's latest summation, but I can't help but wonder about shield upgrades. Based on ALttP, they should be necessary (well, the final one at least). I feel that it's also worth mentioning that you can lose your shield in OoT. Health upgrades seem like they should be expendable if acquired, though, imo. Nevertheless, I'll leave this to those who've beaten this game and/or the admins.

Blazeingphoenix

2013-01-05 09:37:38 am

Whatz Up everyone.

So Second Quest, everything the same except for the rule that *As long as you collected EVERY Heart in the game, you may spend a Heart Container in the rooms that require either to sacrifice a Heart or give up 50 Rupees [13 Life total w/ 3 needing to be spent at minimum].
As for the shield, I still can't figure out whether it'll be most fair w/ or w/out needing to get in the run... so I'm still going to get the shield until told it's not required.

presjpolk

2013-01-05 10:53:44 am

HELLO!

So are we really just the shield away from consensus? Blast.

Blazeingphoenix

Edit history:

Blazeingphoenix: 2013-01-05 12:20:07 pm

2013-01-05 11:31:33 am

Whatz Up everyone.

Okay, just did a test run w/ the rules for first quest ( )... and during it, I lost my shield and ended up w/ a time of 1 Hour 19 Minutes and 31 Seconds [cause I messed up in many places plus the time to get 20 rupees for the second bomb upgrade]. I'm now going towards Shield doesn't need to be collected, because, like presjpolk said, it can always be bought, and let's face it, could save time grinding for rupees for bomb upgrades, when you can use the 90 rupees as a head start to get it... this is just me being lazy tho :p

presjpolk

2013-01-05 01:41:12 pm

HELLO!

You're buying the blue ring? wow

Man cut that and you'll save some rupee grinding Smiley

Nice time considering you bought bomb upgrades, shield upgrade, AND blue ring.

Blazeingphoenix

2013-01-05 02:02:27 pm

Whatz Up everyone.

Well, I'm use to getting those anyways, and like I said, never really tried for Bomb Upgrades, so I was kinda improvising during this run [also, use to only having 8 bombs, so I kept forgetting I could use some on enemies Tongue

). But I still have to practice w/ out either/both Blue Ring and Shield [cause if you watched, since the Blue Ring gives double def. (kinda like giving double life) I had half health a lot of the time. Also, that's the fastest I've ever lost that shield O_o]. I have thought about just keeping the shield tho, and just skipping the Blue Ring since Blue Ring = 250 where as I waited for the 2 Bomb Upgrades and Bait until I need those = 260 (basically, skip Blue Ring and I'll already have most enough for the rest of the run)... so I know I could save some time Rupee Grinding... and I like have that shield against Wizrobes, Blue Gohma, and other rooms w/ Weak Fireballs coming at me. I thought I had the Secret Passages memorized, but messed up somewhere w/ it and I normally do 7 then 6, but I think 6 --> is faster w/ the secret passage now that I've tried it out. And I never use glitches (unless the Dungeon/Level 1 first door is a glitch, in which case, I'll pick up an extra key). But the thing that surprised me most, is I thought I was getting too many keys, but once I got the Magical Key, I already spent all the extra keys and I was glad it worked out. I WILL try that again in the next couple of days, and hope I can save at least 4-5 minutes off my time as well as to see how much I can do w/out the Blue Ring.

Well, I'm use to getting those anyways, and like I said, never really tried for Bomb Upgrades, so I was kinda improvising during this run [also, use to only having 8 bombs, so I kept forgetting I could use some on enemies :P ). But I still have to practice w/ out either/both Blue Ring and Shield [cause if you watched, since the Blue Ring gives double def. (kinda like giving double life) I had half health a lot of the time. Also, that's the fastest I've ever lost that shield O_o]. I have thought about just keeping the shield tho, and just skipping the Blue Ring since Blue Ring = 250 where as I waited for the 2 Bomb Upgrades and Bait until I need those = 260 (basically, skip Blue Ring and I'll already have most enough for the rest of the run)... so I know I could save some time Rupee Grinding... and I like have that shield against Wizrobes, Blue Gohma, and other rooms w/ Weak Fireballs coming at me. I thought I had the Secret Passages memorized, but messed up somewhere w/ it and I normally do 7 then 6, but I think 6 --> is faster w/ the secret passage now that I've tried it out. And I never use glitches (unless the Dungeon/Level 1 first door is a glitch, in which case, I'll pick up an extra key). But the thing that surprised me most, is I thought I was getting too many keys, but once I got the Magical Key, I already spent all the extra keys and I was glad it worked out. I WILL try that again in the next couple of days, and hope I can save at least 4-5 minutes off my time as well as to see how much I can do w/out the Blue Ring.

presjpolk

2013-01-05 02:33:31 pm

HELLO!

Yeah I can imagine if you're used to blue ring, then level 6 becomes a thing.

Blazeingphoenix

Edit history:

Blazeingphoenix: 2013-01-05 05:27:15 pm

2013-01-05 05:24:15 pm

Whatz Up everyone.

So does that mean there's not WR for The Legend of Zelda 100%? If not, I call first dibs, just so I can say I had a WR at one point :p I don't even care if someone beats my record so bad, that I can't beat it... I just think it'll be neat to say "I was the first one to get that WR". But if there is already a Zelda 100% WR, what is it?

Darkwing Duck

Edit history:

Darkwing Duck: 2013-01-05 05:52:23 pm

2013-01-05 05:51:52 pm

Highly Evolved

43:00. I didn't save the recording, though. How many were watching my stream at the time? 50?

Got it over a week ago since it's no longer on my twitch page.

Blazeingphoenix

2013-01-05 05:56:14 pm

Whatz Up everyone.

Now, was that w/ or w/out the Up+A thing? If so, is there going to be two different categories for First Quest 100% [W/ the Up+A and W/out the Up+A], or will it just be 100%?

Darkwing Duck

2013-01-05 05:58:56 pm

Highly Evolved

Without. Watch my recent stream of any% w/ stupid (up+a) to get an understanding of my feelings toward up+a.

Not sure if there would be two different categories. Not any interest for it. I suppose there could be, but screen scrolling cancels out some of the effectiveness of up+a.

Blazeingphoenix

2013-01-05 06:00:52 pm

Whatz Up everyone.

Wow, that is a lot faster than I think I could ever do... tempted to watch other people's tactics, but I've tried avoiding it cause I wanted to see what I could do. I'll check it out when I get the chance.

Darkwing Duck

2013-01-05 06:04:37 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Blazeingphoenix:

Wow, that is a lot faster than I think I could ever do... tempted to watch other people's tactics, but I've tried avoiding it cause I wanted to see what I could do. I'll check it out when I get the chance.

Just watch some of my any% runs. I play the same way, just have to get more stuff for 100%.

The second quest run is on site if you want to watch it.

First quest 32:04 any% no up+a is here. http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/c/1490666 Part 2: http://www.twitch.tv/darkwing_duck_sda/c/1490668

Bear in mind that screen scrolling saves I'm approximating 5-10% from not using it. To get a Legend of Zelda run on SDA, you would definitely have to use it or I'd reject it since you're losing that amount of time over the course of a run.

Blazeingphoenix

2013-01-05 06:09:52 pm

Whatz Up everyone.

K, thanks. Also, is this your fav. game, or do you just find it fun to play and beat very fast.

Darkwing Duck

2013-01-05 06:17:38 pm

Highly Evolved

Quote from Blazeingphoenix:

K, thanks. Also, is this your fav. game, or do you just find it fun to play and beat very fast.

Don't know if I can call any game my favorite. My abilities just seem fit to run games of this nature.

Solairflaire

2013-01-05 07:40:09 pm

I'm fairly certain everyone agrees that the 1st and 2nd quest should use the same rules for 100%. Along those lines, I decided to sit down and do some math for the 2nd quest, since it's the most money dependent.

In just buying items, no upgrades (bombs or shield), you need to spend a minimum of 260 rupees. Candle (60), Arrow (80), and Bait twice (120 minimum). Bait needs to be bought to get the Magic Boomerang and the Magic Key.

With bomb upgrades, the total comes to 460 rupees. With Shield as well, that's 550 rupees. Include needing all Heart Containers at the end and its 650.

There is only 370 rupees available on the overworld. Assuming you get all of them, 90 rupees is a lot to get from random drops. 180 would be impossible from just drops during a run. Without a solid route, it would be impossible to determine when you need the money by, but Money Making Game is probably going to be required. The question is, how much do you want to see someone go in and out of the same cave?