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My feelings on The Demon Rush
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Single-segment run with no up+a

Verifier Responses

I have verified the The Legend of Zelda run.

There are an unfortunate number of small mistakes in this run. It seems like the runner is almost constantly getting stuck on the edge of a wall, or something like that. Other than that, it looks great; the boss fights are all really good except for Ganon, and there aren't any big mistakes.

The video is fine, and there's no cheating, but there's a constant crackling with the audio. If this is fixed, I would recommend to accept the run.

Alright, I had free time to watch the run and verified it, so here are my comments:

Audio is fine, video quality degrades slightly for a second or two during the 9th dungeon, but it's barely noticeable.  No signs of cheating.

I was very unimpressed by the run.  I'm not sure what to think about the route.  I seriously question going really far out of the way to grab the whistle from the fifth dungeon, then use it ONCE before reentering the dungeon later in the game.  As well, the runner seems to have an over reliance on rupees and hearts, multiple times grabbing health and fairies when at full health.  In terms of rupees, they finish the run with 51(!!!) remaining.  This is far too conservative for a run under an hour, as the runner often went way off course to grab extra rupees.

Movement errors happened far too much, and the runner's movements were stalled at many times and often tried to go around enemies as opposed to through them, even when there was health to spare.  They seem very cautious, not good for a speed run.  A perfect example of this is wasting 90 rupees getting the magical shield.  On top of this, the runner grabs both the red ring and medicine, both of which are not required to beat the game, and probably waste a couple of minutes together.

The key route was terrible, the runner was grabbing keys that were either out of the way or guarded by enemies that were difficult to kill.  Speaking of battles, extremely hesitant was the theme, from my point of view.  Bombs were almost never used, the boomerang was grabbed, but used very sparingly, and arrows were not used often enough, given the runner's extreme excess of cash.  As well, the sword beam was overused far too much, as when the runner had it, it seems like they simply refused to get in close.

All in all, the run did not meet the expectations that one should have for a speed run of the original Zelda game.  The runner was far too cautious and wasted time getting and using items that should have been skipped.

Good use of sword beams
Hate to say it, but that's all

Too many rupees left at the end - without even using the gambling game
Grabbed multiple items that should have been ignored (shield, red ring, medicine, boomerang)
Extremely cautious
Terrible key route, a better overworld/dungeon route probably could have been used

Final Verdict: Reject

Sorry I took so long in getting this to you. Life's been kinda difficult with me lately.

Video quality is acceptable, but the audio is way too loud. Overpeaks constantly; I had to watch the run at 2% volume to not have my ears bleeding. Anyways, break it down!

Start to Lv2: No problems.

Level 2: Near flawless. Bit of hesitation/confusion on whether to pick up Rupee drops.

Lv2 to Lv5: Picks up the White Sword on the way up. No problems.

Level 5: Keeps picking up unnecessary hearts/fairies on the way to the Whistle. Also tends to be sword throwing at enemies from much too far away. And WTF is up with attacking the mummies on the way out? Complete waste of time. Exits Lv5 after getting the Whistle.

Lv5 to Lv3: Buys the Blue Candle, picks up a 100 Rupee secret and another Heart Container. Wastes time grabbing that stopwatch. 30 Rupee secret north of start.

Level 3: Five red Darknuts shouldn't take that much effort to kill. It's obvious that runner's being much too cautious at this point. Does do an admirable job of one-shotting Manhandla, though.

Lv3 to Lv4: I don't think killing every Octorok he comes across is entirely necessary.

Level 4: More hesitation/backtracking to pick up Rupee drops. Takes entirely too long to kill the Vires in the room before the Gleeok. Boss fight itself is actually decent.

Lv4 to Lv1: Picks up a magic shield and a potion instead of an HC.

Level 1: Passable. Looks like the runner's almost starting to realize that picking up hearts/fairies when at full is pointless.

Lv1 to Lv5: More attacking things pointlessly.

Level 5: Acceptable, but just barely.

Lv5 to Lv7: More time wasted on Octoroks on the way up to the Bait and Arrow. I hope to God he doesn't need to pick up any more Rupees, 'cause I'm gonna pull my hair out at this rate.

Level 7: Killing that Blue Goriah wasn't necessary. Nor were those three. Nor that one, especially considering he switched to the Bow to do so. Has this runner even played the game prior to this? Obviously doesn't know how to properly deal with a triple Digdogger. And, if you're gonna pick up the HC, don't waste time running from it only to turn around to grab it. Seriously.

Lv7 to Lv6: Amazingly, I have no complaints.

Level 6:  Sadly, I was wrong. Runner is definitely still backtracking to pick up Rupee drops. Both Wizzrobe/LikeLike rooms are just plain ugly.

Lv6 to Lv8: Magic Sword.

Level 8: That first blue Darknut room had a perfect grouping for a Bomb, but runner misses it completely. Otherwise no major problems.

Lv8 to Lv9: Yeah, because killing that blue Lionel was totally necessary.

Level 9: Thank God it's almost over. Way to stab that LikeLike and then run from it. Too bad the Red Ring doesn't increase player skill, made evident by taking more than five seconds to kill one remaining blue Wizzrobe. Could've done a much better job with those Patras, too. Ganon fight is...passable, I suppose. Oh, and good job ignoring the Triforce of Power for five seconds. Only used three more bombs total, so that extra pickup partway through was pointless, as was a key somewhere along the line.

Verdict: Reject. I know SDA doesn't yet have a 1st quest run with no Up+A, but this definitely isn't up to standards. My thanks go to the runner for this attempt, but some serious work on technique needs to be done if he/she considers submitting again.

Video/Audio Quality:

Not so hot really, but nothing I imagine nate couldn't clean up.  Nothing bad enough to reject over here.


Perfectly legit play.

Play Quality:

Here we have the issue.  This run simply does not meet the site's standards in this department, even for an inaugural run of this particular category.  This run clocks in about 15 minutes slower than the current Up+A run, and sure Up+A saves a good chunk of time, but not nearly that much.  I do think the runner has it in him to get to the point of having something submittable as his play itself isn't half bad (though I'm willing to bet with how rejection write-ups have been going as of late one of them posted above or below this one would suggest otherwise with some rather nasty comments thrown in for flavor.  Hope I'm wrong, but don't think I am).  But really, quite simply put, the strategies used aren't really built for all out speed.  Survival and completion seem to play too large a role in his route, fighting, and purchasing decisions.  There isn't much in the way of risk taking at all, and that's kind of the name of the game where speedrunning is concerned.

I could just leave it at that, say reject, and call it a day, but I'd personally really like to see a solid run of this category on the site someday, so lets go into specifics a bit, shall we?


I'm going to ditch my anonymity at this point and start by saying that the route you used here is actually fairly similar to the one I plan to use for the upcoming charity marathon (and if you aren't following that thread, this is Breakdown).  Now if you were playing live this would be fine since you don't want to take big risks in front of a crowd, but you don't have any sort of pressure to get a run to go up on the site right the first, second, or even hundredth time.  You can take as long as you need, and with that in mind you can afford to take more risks and up the difficulty on the route a notch or five.

First off, let's rattle off what items you shouldn't be getting:  medicine, big shield, and red ring.  With the medicine, if you'd taken the heart container there instead you could've gotten the magic sword before level 6 instead of after which would've been a big help there (and never mind the fact that your frozen the two times you use it).  The shield is very helpful certainly, but not getting it means 90 less rupees you have to grab and having it doesn't really speed you up at all.  The red ring cost you about 2 minutes to get (though the detour can be done more quickly) and all it does is up your survivability.  I can understand wanting it certainly, especially considering how hard Ganon hits without it, but that's a risk you NEED to take in a run like this.  Two minutes is a LOT of time in a run under an hour.  Grabbing the boomerang is also a questionable decision.  It can certainly be done without, and the the Digdogger fights are handled pretty easily without it using the bomb/whistle before it blows/bomb technique.

Now for the level order.  You mention having watched Tom Votava's run on youtube in your comments and I imagine you've watched TSA's run on the site as well.  Given that, I'm truly baffled as to why you don't go for level 3 first.  Level 2 is certainly far easier to tackle right off the bat, but it doesn't really offer any advantage in terms of speed.  If you manipulate a bomb drop on the way to 3 you don't lose too much time at all versus doing it later with the white sword, and most importantly it gets you the raft, which in turn gets you the ladder that much sooner, and with that you're free to tackle whatever dungeon you want.

So to sum up, starting of with level 3 then 4 is basically a slam dunk.  I think from there you'll want to have collected at least 30 rupees (still early enough where hoping for this kind of luck isn't unreasonable) and hit the moblin cave just north of the start for 30 more to get the blue candle.  From here nab the heart container just south of level 1 and then hit level 1 itself.  Then go grab the white sword and hit level 5.

Now at this point with this route versus the one you took, for the amount of travel done 4 dungeons are completed compared to what what would about equal 2 and half in yours.  I think the efficiency here speaks for itself.

Now for the tricky part.  Whistle to level 1, head to the 100 rupee bush and heart container in the south and grab them both.  Now head to level 8.  Making it through here with 9 hearts and the white sword is a tall order definitely, but it is the most efficient way to do things.  From there swing north to level 2 and hope like hell you have 140 rupees when you're done with it.  This late in the run if you're short, however, you'd probably be cut a little slack if you had to pick up a moblin cave after to hit the target.

Whistle to 3, make a slight detour up the coast to buy arrows and meat and hit level 7, walk to level 6 grabbing the magic sword on the way, from there I'm not sure if it's faster just to walk to 9 or whistle to 1 first, probably would depend on how many times you'd have to use it to get there.  Whichever's faster do that, kill Ganon (without the red ring), and save the babe.

So just case that was a case of tl;dr, in short what I think to be the ideal no Up+A route is 3-4-1-5-8-2-7-6-9.  If level 8 that early is too much I think people would be forgiving if you saved it for last and either grabbed the heart container north of 2 after beating it or waited until after level 6 to get the magic sword (debatable which would be faster, though which is easier should be obvious).  I think the increased efficiency of this route versus the one you took (for those who didn't get to see: 2-5(whistle only)-3-4-1-5(clear)-7-6-8-9) is pretty clear to see.

Also some general tips for you:

You kill way too many enemies that you don't have to.  Pretty much the only enemies you kill that you don't absolutely have to should be either in the hope of bomb drops or, at certain spots in the game, rupees.  Otherwise, if you can, just run on by.

On a similar note, you go out of your way to pick up drops way too often.  You had a large surplus of rupees at the end, many of which came at the expense of several seconds to collect.

Be more aggressive with your bombs.  There were very few occasions in the run where you used them offensively and they can save lots of time in fights, especially when you still have the weaker swords.  Know how many you need to clear a particular area and use the excess to your advantage.

Please, please, please don't use the whistle to bypass the period you can't attack after getting hit by a bubble.  I must admit it's a neat trick and one I wasn't aware of before this, but the time it takes to switch to and from the whistle and use it is an unacceptable time loss.

Learn the quick Dodogno kill. Only needing one bomb to kill it plus a guaranteed bomb drop after is very helpful, plus it's a little faster.

Small thing, but when using the meat enter the room a bit and place it to the side so you can keep moving upwards while the goriya is disappearing.

I really hope you take this advice to heart and keep plugging away at this run.  I do honestly think if you keep at it you can put something really good together.  But for right now, I do have to say. . .


Decision: Reject

Reason: The play is okay, but the route could use a lot of work.

As always, this run is avialable upon request, PM me before December 22nd.
Thread title:  
(user is banned)
Awww Sad

Hopefully the runner will come up with a new run soon...
I agree with Wak. It's nice to see that someone makes a serious attempt on loz. I hope the runner takes the verification as constructive criticism and get back to the study room in order to refine the route. The skill potential seems to be there, so now it just needs to be coordinated with streamlined strategies and a dedicated mind. Good luck !
It is surely very hard make accetable LOZ run, because TSA already set stanard very high. His UP A warp run was awesome and extreme lucky.

Good luck with your run. Not give up.  Wink
I watched this run.

Im not was verifer, but i agree all what verifers said. This run was extremely cautions. I not want comment route line. But so many things can be done better. Level 9 was just extremely ugly. Runner got red ring and lost still both potions. Each potion take about 10 seconds to take. Runner can as well avoid take potion and take heart. Now you can got 3rd sword before Level 6 which save a lot time with wizzrobes.

Runner lost a lot time with Level 5 darkknights. Using bomb would be better.

Why runner take hearth killing gleeok in level 8? Runner already have 3rd sword. He have double potion too and i think one more heart not make game any easier.

Otherwise i liked your gameplay. This was really interesting. But i agree this run not was even close TSA awesome run. Actually current 2nd quest no up a warp run was faster.

But keep practice. With hard job you can make it better. And i think most verifers will accept it even you not make it optimize like TSA.
Edit history:
Zeo: 2011-03-30 06:28:04 pm
Quote from MASTER-88:
Otherwise i liked your gameplay. This was really interesting. But i agree this run not was even close TSA awesome run. Actually current 2nd quest no up a warp run was faster.

Yes, but second quest has a HUGE advantage in that you don't even need the white sword, because you can go straight to level 8(after stopping by level 6(edit not 1)) and get the wand!

also things are considerably closer to each other in second.  Level 8 isn't out in the middle of BUM egypt.