The HD Era and Video Capture...

2006-08-03 04:18:17 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

With next gen consoles such as the Xbox360 and PS3(and maybe Wii) that support HD output, video capture becomes more and more difficult. Right now, you can buy a decent video capture card(720x480) for only a few hundred dollars, or a DVD recorder that you can use to burn and rip DVDs onto your computer. However, those do not support HD.

I realize that very few people have an HDTV, so for the most part, this isn't really an issue. However, what about the people who have HDTVs or a monitor hooked up to the console and want to capture video? There are two choices: hook the console up to an SDTV and play/record in standard definition, or buy an HD Capture Card, which is extremely expensive. It would seem like a waste to have an HDTV but not be able to use it because you need to capture in standard definition.

I'm not sure this really matters to speedrunners, either. There are very few people doing speedruns of 360 games, and I doubt any of them even have an HDTV. In addition, HD video takes up a lot more space, which could possibly become an issue as it puts more strain on the bandwidth.

However, over the next few years, the government is going to cut off standard definition signal, and almost all television will be broadcast in HD. By this time, it is expected that many people will have an HDTV. Standard definition is slowly being pushed out, and HD is moving in. An excellent example of this is gametrailers.com. Before the 360 came out, there were no HD trailers except for maybe a few PC trailers. Now, just about every new video for PC or the next gen consoles are in HD. And in many cases, the HD versions of the trailers are downloaded more than the SD versions. People want high quality video, and almost every PC monitor on the market can display at least 720p. Internet bandwidth is increasing, so people will have faster download speeds and be able to handle the larger filesizes of HD video, as well.

In my opinion, the change to HD is inevitable. But what happens when the world goes HD, and people still want to capture video when HD is the standard?

Right now, I can only see two ways of capturing in HD: buying an HD capture card, which can cost thousands of dollars; or buying an HD-DVD/Bluray video recorder and ripping the DVDs onto your computer. As far as I know, there aren't any HD-DVD or Bluray recorders out yet, nor are there any drives for the PC that can read those formats. Over the next few years, they will become more and more common, and will hopefully not be too expensive. As for the HD capture cards, they should drop in price as well once the demand for them increases.

Another thing to consider when capturing HD video is storage. Since uncompressed HD video takes up so much space, you'd need a pretty big hard drive to store the video before compressing it. I'm assuming most HD capture cards will capture around 30MBPS, which isn't too bad. However, if you record a lot of video, it could become an issue.

I know this isn't really much of an issue right now, because not very many people have HDTVs/next gen consoles. However, it is something to think about over the next few years.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this issue?

Personally, I have a 360 and a nice HD computer monitor, and I used to do a lot of video capture. If I had the money, I'd buy myself an HD capture card, but until then, I guess I'll just not capture in HD. =/

Thread title:

With next gen consoles such as the Xbox360 and PS3(and maybe Wii) that support HD output, video capture becomes more and more difficult. Right now, you can buy a decent video capture card(720x480) for only a few hundred dollars, or a DVD recorder that you can use to burn and rip DVDs onto your computer. However, those do not support HD.

I realize that very few people have an HDTV, so for the most part, this isn't really an issue. However, what about the people who have HDTVs or a monitor hooked up to the console and want to capture video? There are two choices: hook the console up to an SDTV and play/record in standard definition, or buy an HD Capture Card, which is extremely expensive. It would seem like a waste to have an HDTV but not be able to use it because you need to capture in standard definition.

I'm not sure this really matters to speedrunners, either. There are very few people doing speedruns of 360 games, and I doubt any of them even have an HDTV. In addition, HD video takes up a lot more space, which could possibly become an issue as it puts more strain on the bandwidth.

However, over the next few years, the government is going to cut off standard definition signal, and almost all television will be broadcast in HD. By this time, it is expected that many people will have an HDTV. Standard definition is slowly being pushed out, and HD is moving in. An excellent example of this is gametrailers.com. Before the 360 came out, there were no HD trailers except for maybe a few PC trailers. Now, just about every new video for PC or the next gen consoles are in HD. And in many cases, the HD versions of the trailers are downloaded more than the SD versions. People want high quality video, and almost every PC monitor on the market can display at least 720p. Internet bandwidth is increasing, so people will have faster download speeds and be able to handle the larger filesizes of HD video, as well.

In my opinion, the change to HD is inevitable. But what happens when the world goes HD, and people still want to capture video when HD is the standard?

Right now, I can only see two ways of capturing in HD: buying an HD capture card, which can cost thousands of dollars; or buying an HD-DVD/Bluray video recorder and ripping the DVDs onto your computer. As far as I know, there aren't any HD-DVD or Bluray recorders out yet, nor are there any drives for the PC that can read those formats. Over the next few years, they will become more and more common, and will hopefully not be too expensive. As for the HD capture cards, they should drop in price as well once the demand for them increases.

Another thing to consider when capturing HD video is storage. Since uncompressed HD video takes up so much space, you'd need a pretty big hard drive to store the video before compressing it. I'm assuming most HD capture cards will capture around 30MBPS, which isn't too bad. However, if you record a lot of video, it could become an issue.

I know this isn't really much of an issue right now, because not very many people have HDTVs/next gen consoles. However, it is something to think about over the next few years.

What are your thoughts and opinions on this issue?

Personally, I have a 360 and a nice HD computer monitor, and I used to do a lot of video capture. If I had the money, I'd buy myself an HD capture card, but until then, I guess I'll just not capture in HD. =/

Mkt2015

2006-08-03 06:38:12 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

Ok, there is HDTV.

There is DVD.

And now there is HD-DVD...wtf??

I, personally, could care less about HDTV. I was all for DVD, but I don't understand this HD-DVD stuff. DVD has only been around for 6? years...maybe a few more.

And, my opinion is tha, in the long run, people aren't going to care about HDTV and HD-DVDs will probably bomb.

Can someone tell me what the difference is between a DVD and a HD-DVD?

Lloyd1337

2006-08-03 06:46:51 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

Ok, there is HDTV.

There is DVD.

And now there is HD-DVD...wtf??

I, personally, could care less about HDTV. I was all for DVD, but I don't understand this HD-DVD stuff. DVD has only been around for 6? years...maybe a few more.

And, my opinion is tha, in the long run, people aren't going to care about HDTV and HD-DVDs will probably bomb.

Can someone tell me what the difference is between a DVD and a HD-DVD?

Normal DVDs have 5-9GB of storage capacity. Movies stored on DVD are in SD resolution(640x480).

HD-DVDs have up to 50GB of storage capacity. Movies stored on HD-DVD are in HD resolution(1280x720 or 1920x1080).

Basically, video on HD-DVDs is in high definition, so you get a higher resolution(more pixels) and a higher framerate(smoother video).

Also, HDTV is not going to bomb. Seriously, who goes out and buys an SDTV for their new home theater setup? I doubt they even sell large SDTVs anymore. Go to any home theater store, and you will see a ton of HDTVs, and very few SDTVs.

[quote]Ok, there is HDTV.

There is DVD.

And now there is HD-DVD...wtf??

I, personally, could care less about HDTV. I was all for DVD, but I don't understand this HD-DVD stuff. DVD has only been around for 6? years...maybe a few more.

And, my opinion is tha, in the long run, people aren't going to care about HDTV and HD-DVDs will probably bomb.

Can someone tell me what the difference is between a DVD and a HD-DVD?[/quote]

Normal DVDs have 5-9GB of storage capacity. Movies stored on DVD are in SD resolution(640x480).

HD-DVDs have up to 50GB of storage capacity. Movies stored on HD-DVD are in HD resolution(1280x720 or 1920x1080).

Basically, video on HD-DVDs is in high definition, so you get a higher resolution(more pixels) and a higher framerate(smoother video).

Also, HDTV is not going to bomb. Seriously, who goes out and buys an SDTV for their new home theater setup? I doubt they even sell large SDTVs anymore. Go to any home theater store, and you will see a ton of HDTVs, and very few SDTVs.

Cygnus

2006-08-03 06:50:24 am

Ben Goldberg

Well, if you look at sales in the last couple of years, you would see that HDTV's are doing the opposite of bombing.

nate

2006-08-03 06:54:50 am

i think prices on hd capture cards and hddvd/bluray recorders will come down. simple as that.

Lloyd1337

2006-08-03 07:19:15 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

i think prices on hd capture cards and hddvd/bluray recorders will come down. simple as that.

Mmm. I just wonder how much. Right now, the cheapest HD capture card I can find is $3500, and there are a few that are more expensive.

I guess it all depends on how quickly HD becomes the new standard, because that is almost directly proportional to the demand for HD capture cards, which is proportional to the price of said capture cards.

Lloyd1337

2006-08-03 07:46:16 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

I wonder if it would be possible to capture in HD using an HDTV Tuner card? It's designed to let you watch HDTV on your computer, but if the data is input into the computer, wouldn't it be possible to record it using WME just like with a normal capture card? Or, in the worst case scenario, use something like FRAPS to record the screen?

The only problem is that I don't see any HD Tuner Cards with the proper inputs(HD-Component or DVI), and I don't know how easy it is to convert those to whatever the hell these HD tuners use(looks like Coaxial, but I don't think Coaxial has enough bandwidth to be HD).

nate

2006-08-03 07:56:03 am

iirc ati makes one, and of course being ati it's not bad. check around videohelp.com. and yes i think all tuner cards are capture cards as well.

Mkt2015

2006-08-03 08:01:34 am

MGS for PS1 forever.

I'm still going to wait several years before I even think about buying a HDTV. Just because they are selling well right now doesn't mean anything. Also, there has to be standards. Try playing Guitar Hero on a HDTV...almost unplayable. What does these mean when it comes to speedruns? Do the math.

Of course, when it gets right down to it...we'll just have to wait and see.

Lloyd1337

2006-08-03 08:38:21 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

I'm still going to wait several years before I even think about buying a HDTV. Just because they are selling well right now doesn't mean anything. Also, there has to be standards. Try playing Guitar Hero on a HDTV...almost unplayable. What does these mean when it comes to speedruns? Do the math.

Of course, when it gets right down to it...we'll just have to wait and see.

HDTV is ill suited for playing older gen consoles or watching SDTV signal.

Playing Guitar Hero on an HDTV is stupid, because the HDTVs quality is so infinitely superior to the signal that is being input, you can see how awful SDTV is in comparison. Basically, the game is being output at 640x480, and then that image needs to be stretched all the way up to 1280x720 or 1920x1080, so you can see the lack of detail as each pixel is many times larger than it normally would be on an SDTV. Also, if you don't use centerd timings, the 4:3 image would be stretched to 16:9, and would therefore look distorted.

As for the rest of your post, you seem to think that HDTV will fail, even though sales are rapidly increasing. That doesn't really make sense to me. If you go into a store to buy a TV, would you choose an inferior SDTV that won't be supported in a few years when everything goes digital, or would you choose an HDTV, which can display up to 10 times more resolution for a much sharper and more detailed image?

As for "what does these mean for doing speedruns?", it means that future speedruns of games on next-gen consoles will look a lot better, and could possibly make the game easier to play because you can see much more detail and are therefore more accurate or something. It probably won't affect gameplay much, but it will make the speedrun look nicer. However, I'm not talking about older generation console speedruns. Playing a PS2/Xbox/Gamecube/anything older game on an HDTV would cause image degredation and therefore make the game harder to play. And since none of the older gen consoles output in HD, they would not be captured in HD, and therefore the resulting video file would look no different.

[quote]I'm still going to wait several years before I even think about buying a HDTV. Just because they are selling well right now doesn't mean anything. Also, there has to be standards. Try playing Guitar Hero on a HDTV...almost unplayable. What does these mean when it comes to speedruns? Do the math.

Of course, when it gets right down to it...we'll just have to wait and see.[/quote]

HDTV is ill suited for playing older gen consoles or watching SDTV signal.

Playing Guitar Hero on an HDTV is stupid, because the HDTVs quality is so infinitely superior to the signal that is being input, you can see how awful SDTV is in comparison. Basically, the game is being output at 640x480, and then that image needs to be stretched all the way up to 1280x720 or 1920x1080, so you can see the lack of detail as each pixel is many times larger than it normally would be on an SDTV. Also, if you don't use centerd timings, the 4:3 image would be stretched to 16:9, and would therefore look distorted.

As for the rest of your post, you seem to think that HDTV will fail, even though sales are rapidly increasing. That doesn't really make sense to me. If you go into a store to buy a TV, would you choose an inferior SDTV that won't be supported in a few years when everything goes digital, or would you choose an HDTV, which can display up to 10 times more resolution for a much sharper and more detailed image?

As for "what does these mean for doing speedruns?", it means that future speedruns of games on next-gen consoles will look a lot better, and could possibly make the game easier to play because you can see much more detail and are therefore more accurate or something. It probably won't affect gameplay much, but it will make the speedrun look nicer. However, I'm not talking about older generation console speedruns. Playing a PS2/Xbox/Gamecube/anything older game on an HDTV would cause image degredation and therefore make the game harder to play. And since none of the older gen consoles output in HD, they would not be captured in HD, and therefore the resulting video file would look no different.

Andrew_Mills

2006-08-03 05:38:10 pm

AlphaStrategyGui des.com

I've considered purchasing a HD-Capture Card, but right now, at £1,000 a pop, it's outwith my current justifyable budget. Not enough people - yet - own HD TV's to warrant it. THEN, there's the small matter of Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD. Do you record for both or just one?

No doubt they'll come down in price, but I reckon not for a little while yet (certainly not the HD-Capture cards at least). There's simply not enough demand to warrant such a price drop.

StrangenessDSS

2006-08-03 09:14:18 pm

Sleeping Terror

Quote:

However, over the next few years, the government is going to cut off standard definition signal, and almost all television will be broadcast in HD.

Wrong. They're switching the broadcast standard from analog to digital, not SD to HD. Also, the deadline was already changed from 2006 to 2009, and it wouldn't be impossible for it to be pushed back again.

Quote:

HDTV is ill suited for playing older gen consoles or watching SDTV signal...

That's not because of the higher resolution; it's because most HDTV screens have a fixed resolution, and don't scale other resolutions to fit very well. I can watch SD video on my CRT monitor (1600x1200), and it looks just as good as on any TV, if not better than most.

Quote:

If you go into a store to buy a TV, would you choose an inferior SDTV that won't be supported in a few years when everything goes digital, or would you choose an HDTV, which can display up to 10 times more resolution for a much sharper and more detailed image?

That depends on how much money you want to spend. Also, any old SDTV will be able to display the new signals with the help of a digital tuner.

[quote]However, over the next few years, the government is going to cut off standard definition signal, and almost all television will be broadcast in HD.[/quote]
Wrong. They're switching the broadcast standard from analog to digital, not SD to HD. Also, the deadline was already changed from 2006 to 2009, and it wouldn't be impossible for it to be pushed back again.

[quote]HDTV is ill suited for playing older gen consoles or watching SDTV signal...[/quote]
That's not because of the higher resolution; it's because most HDTV screens have a fixed resolution, and don't scale other resolutions to fit very well. I can watch SD video on my CRT monitor (1600x1200), and it looks just as good as on any TV, if not better than most.

[quote]If you go into a store to buy a TV, would you choose an inferior SDTV that won't be supported in a few years when everything goes digital, or would you choose an HDTV, which can display up to 10 times more resolution for a much sharper and more detailed image?[/quote]
That depends on how much money you want to spend. Also, any old SDTV will be able to display the new signals with the help of a digital tuner.

Lloyd1337

2006-08-04 12:06:54 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

Wrong. They're switching the broadcast standard from analog to digital, not SD to HD. Also, the deadline was already changed from 2006 to 2009, and it wouldn't be impossible for it to be pushed back again.

Hmm. I heard(erm... read on wikipedia) that it would be when 85% of the people in a given area can view the digital signal. And now that I think about it, you're right about it not being SD to HD. Sorry for the mixup. =x

Quote:

That's not because of the higher resolution; it's because most HDTV screens have a fixed resolution, and don't scale other resolutions to fit very well. I can watch SD video on my CRT monitor (1600x1200), and it looks just as good as on any TV, if not better than most.

I meant that since the HDTV has a specific native resolution(1280x720/1920x1080), which is the number of physical pixels the monitor can display, the smaller resolution needs to get scaled up to fit, which causes the image to look bad. Just like if you run an LCD monitor in a resolution other than it's native res. Because each physical pixel has to display part of a larger pixel, and if the resolution being scaled up is not divisible by the monitors native res, there isn't an even ratio of digital pixels to physical pixels, so it looks bad.

As for CRTs looking better than on a TV, it is because CRTs don't have a problem scaling. But if you watch an SD signal at a higher res, it may look artificially better because the CRT is capable of outputting a better image than the TV, but the actual image isn't any more detailed. And upsampling by your computer could also contribute to enhancing the image.

Quote:

That depends on how much money you want to spend. Also, any old SDTV will be able to display the new signals with the help of a digital tuner.

Alright, I was wrong about the HD and SD thing, again. However, most people would probably still go for an HDTV because it provides a superior viewing experience and stuff. If you look at an HDTV next to an SDTV, you're going to want the HDTV, even if you can't afford it. No one with half-decent vision would say that the SDTV looks as good as, or even better than the HDTV. Whether it looks "good enough" to you is all a matter of perception, but once you've gone HD, it's hard to look back. And yes, price is still an issue for many people.

[quote]
Wrong. They're switching the broadcast standard from analog to digital, not SD to HD. Also, the deadline was already changed from 2006 to 2009, and it wouldn't be impossible for it to be pushed back again.[/quote]

Hmm. I heard(erm... read on wikipedia) that it would be when 85% of the people in a given area can view the digital signal. And now that I think about it, you're right about it not being SD to HD. Sorry for the mixup. =x

[quote]
That's not because of the higher resolution; it's because most HDTV screens have a fixed resolution, and don't scale other resolutions to fit very well. I can watch SD video on my CRT monitor (1600x1200), and it looks just as good as on any TV, if not better than most.
[/quote]

I meant that since the HDTV has a specific native resolution(1280x720/1920x1080), which is the number of physical pixels the monitor can display, the smaller resolution needs to get scaled up to fit, which causes the image to look bad. Just like if you run an LCD monitor in a resolution other than it's native res. Because each physical pixel has to display part of a larger pixel, and if the resolution being scaled up is not divisible by the monitors native res, there isn't an even ratio of digital pixels to physical pixels, so it looks bad.

As for CRTs looking better than on a TV, it is because CRTs don't have a problem scaling. But if you watch an SD signal at a higher res, it may look artificially better because the CRT is capable of outputting a better image than the TV, but the actual image isn't any more detailed. And upsampling by your computer could also contribute to enhancing the image.

[quote]That depends on how much money you want to spend. Also, any old SDTV will be able to display the new signals with the help of a digital tuner.[/quote]

Alright, I was wrong about the HD and SD thing, again. However, most people would probably still go for an HDTV because it provides a superior viewing experience and stuff. If you look at an HDTV next to an SDTV, you're going to want the HDTV, even if you can't afford it. No one with half-decent vision would say that the SDTV looks as good as, or even better than the HDTV. Whether it looks "good enough" to you is all a matter of perception, but once you've gone HD, it's hard to look back. And yes, price is still an issue for many people.

getter77

2006-08-04 02:38:42 pm

100% runs=great to watch

If a person is only concerned with the Wii and everything before it and not a 360 or PS3...there's only these options to avoid hassles:

-Buy/hold onto an SDTV...or an EDTV. (CRT's prolly best)
-Get a PC monitor and use it for a screen (needs VGA IIRC? Still need to figure out how to do that myself since that'll be what I need to do for my Wii. LQ 1992 TV be damned)

Everybody else...pretty much what nate said. I suspect there'll be some folk who manage HD console runs before the prices come WAAY down...like within the next 3-4 years. Otherwise, people will just do SD runs of those systems...and the quality will just be as it is...perhaps new codecs will help in the future.

By the time all the HD centric stuff is super affordable, most/all the Pre-Wii consoles will probably be in TAS territory up against more modern SDA content.

Trevor

2006-08-04 02:39:35 pm

i don't know much about HD technology but i have a question. wouldn't it be possible to hack the relatively cheap MyHD card to accept an HD signal from video game consoles?

http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/mdp130.asp

Lloyd1337

2006-08-05 04:56:43 am

I love YaBB 1G - SP1!

Quote:

i don't know much about HD technology but i have a question. wouldn't it be possible to hack the relatively cheap MyHD card to accept an HD signal from video game consoles?

http://www.digitalconnection.com/Products/Video/mdp130.asp

The problem is that it doesn't have the proper inputs, and as far as I know, there aren't any adapters that would convert the signal.

Trevor

2006-08-05 05:26:42 pm

Quote:

The problem is that it doesn't have the proper inputs, and as far as I know, there aren't any adapters that would convert the signal.

yes, we'd need someone with knowledge of electronics to either hack proper inputs onto the board or make those kind of adaptors.