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Rainault: 2009-12-21 12:23:01 pm
Not a schmuck.
After watching the current run of The Guardian Legend, I've been spending some time trying out various strategies on how to optimize it. The most obvious one is to abuse death/respawning, but if I understand the rules correctly, that would qualify for a different category. I know that I can perform a couple of the boss battles somewhat better, but other than that, I feel that it would take quite a bit of effort and luck to beat the current time. (In particular, I'm dreading Corridors 9 and 10.)

So I decided that my time would be better spent performing a 100% run of the game instead. I did a quick run through the game today. I didn't officially time it, but I'd estimate that I could probably finish in roughly 90 minutes. I have a path planned to ensure that I grab every powerup, and I think it's close to optimal.

Anyway, the main purpose of this post is to discuss the definition of 100% for this game. Intuitively, it means beating every Corridor and maxing out all of your weapons, but there is some room for ambiguity. For example, there are more than three powerups for the Multi Bullets weapon, even though it maxes out at three. Do you have to pick them all up, or just three of them? Also, do you have to purchase something from every shop? Some of them have Red/Blue Landers, so they will be required, but what about the ones that don't? What about the Enemy Eraser powerups? What about Energy Tanks?

In my opinion, this is what the definition of 100% should be: You must beat every Corridor and mini-boss, grab every fixed powerup except Energy Tanks, and purchase from every shop. It has a nice, clean, unambiguous meaning, and it leaves virtually no stone unturned. The reason I exclude Energy Tanks is because unlike every other fixed powerup, they don't permanently contribute to your effectiveness in the game.

Here's another possible definition: You must beat every Corridor and mini-boss, acquire every Blue/Red Lander, and max out your Attack (3), Shield (6), Consecutive Firing (5), and all of your special weapons (1 for Enemy Eraser, 3 for everything else). This is less of a "true" 100% accomplishment, since there are some powerups that you don't have to pick up any more, but the powerups that are excluded are the ones that wouldn't have contributed to anything (e.g. Multi Bullets beyond the third, Consecutive Firing beyond the fifth). Should we be enforcing these powerups? Also, since every Corridor and mini-boss is still required, you'll still end up acquiring most of these extraneous powerups anyway. This is why I recommend the former definition.

Thoughts?
Thread title:  
Master-88
I want see this run.  Wink

100% might be interesting.

This is weird there is not any TAS videos with this game. Hard to know best routeline.
Not a schmuck.
I actually found a TAS run of this game on YouTube. The first video link in the series can be found here. I wouldn't consider it a perfect TAS run, but it's cool to watch. I don't know of a 100% TAS run, though.

I performed a 100% test run today on a real console, and I completed the game in about 1:35. I made a couple mistakes that cost me a few minutes, so I think it might be possible to do a sub-1:30 run. I did waste a bit of time needlessly changing weapons, and I completely flubbed Area 4; I didn't have enough chips to purchase the Blue Lander, so I had to wander for a minute or two.

I'll keep practicing the run and researching for more optimal boss battles, especially the mini-bosses. As I said before, I think my current route is optimal, so I doubt I'll change it much.
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
I think 100% by SDA means "if your status screen is filled there you go". For example, I believe the 100% Paper Mario run needed a Diploma because it shows up on your item screen even though it doesn't do anything. So I think you actually need your weapons at level 3, but you don't need all 5 of that 8-way fireball because it just stops at level 3. That would mean you wouldn't need to grab energy tanks to refill health or beat mini-bosses on the map either, unless they have unique drops like the defense boosts I know some of them have.

Also, 100% could also be "reach 99 health! grind up to millions of points or death abuse over and over again to get extend bonuses! hahahahaha!". This seems like a tough one to define, someone call Mike.

btw I love this game and if you drop off the map I will eventually get around to doing it for you. But there's a bunch of other games that aren't on this site I want to make runs of first.
Not a schmuck.
Quote from ShinerCCC:
That would mean you wouldn't need to grab energy tanks to refill health or beat mini-bosses on the map either, unless they have unique drops like the defense boosts I know some of them have.


It doesn't quite seem right to leave out some mini-bosses in a 100% run, even if they have worthless drops. But I can see the argument for it. Should I send an e-mail to Mike to get a ruling on this?

Also, since death warping can be abused to save time, should I prefer to do that in my run, or should I make my run deathless like the current run?
Not a schmuck.
I just discovered ustream.tv (never heard of it before), and I noticed that some other runners are using it to broadcast their practice runs. Would anybody be interested in watching a stream of one of my test runs? I plan on testing out a new route with an alternate 100% definition (all Corridors, max powerups only), and I'll also be taking advantage of death abuse. It'll probably happen this Saturday or Sunday. Post here if you intend to watch it.
Good luck with this one. I have good memories of this game and will definitely watch any run posted.

I'm not an authority here, so I won't give you the definitive guidelines for the 100%. However, I'm fairly sure ShinerCCC is correct about the items in the menu + all blue and red landers (life and chip extensions) + aquire all permanent techniques (only rapid fire ?). I think you can skip expendable items (life tanks, enemy erasers, ...). However, I also agree that the 100% definition is not evident. Aren't some (all ?) shops "you can only buy 1 out of 3 items" ? So basically, you can't get all upgrades no matter what ? I'm not sure what to think of the bosses in a 100%-run (need to beat all of them or not).

No-death and death abuse runs would go into separate categories. Some people like no-death runs, other people like the fastest possible methods no matter what. I guess it's up to you (seems like you already made up your mind).
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
Dying in this game is purely advantageous because it resets your score to 0. You get a life boost at 30,000 points, other extend bonuses are much farther away (100k, 200k, 500k, 1m I think). Given that your life will be increasing quite a bit, the only way we'll know if you got all the blue landers is if you literally visit every known location of them in the game, that seems hard to verify...I think you may only need the red landers!

I'd love to watch your stream but I'm busy with finals this week and I fly home on Sunday :< sorry
Not a schmuck.
Quote from ShinerCCC:
Dying in this game is purely advantageous because it resets your score to 0. You get a life boost at 30,000 points, other extend bonuses are much farther away (100k, 200k, 500k, 1m I think).


I thought so too, until I killed myself in a test run and discovered that my score didn't reset. I think this might only be in the TGL mode; I know for certain that your score resets there. I'll double-check this when I get home tonight.

Quote from ShinerCCC:
Given that your life will be increasing quite a bit, the only way we'll know if you got all the blue landers is if you literally visit every known location of them in the game, that seems hard to verify...I think you may only need the red landers!


I've mapped out the entire game. There are nine Blue Landers and nine Red Landers. So it'll be pretty easy to count.

I'd be willing to skip some mini-bosses in a 100% run, though that makes me a little sad; I was just starting to develop a good strategy against the rhino-head boss in Area 10. I feel compelled to finish every Corridor, though, so that's what my run this weekend will do. At some point in the near future, I'll bug Mike and ask him for an official ruling.
Quote from ShinerCCC:
Dying in this game is purely advantageous because it resets your score to 0.


Are you sure? I thought it only did that if you enter "TGL" as the password and played only the corridors. In the regular game, you need a password to continue after dying, your score is not reset.

EDIT: Ninja'd, d'oh. Sad
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Hmmm, I don't remember this game too well, but IIRC, there's just weapon levels and health tracked on the status screen. Wouldn't that be 100%?
Not a schmuck.
Is that all that would be required? Sad Poo.

The only things that are tracked on the status screen are health, chip count, attack, shield, and special weapons. Technically, you can also collect up to five Consecutive Firing powerups, but these are not visually tracked.

Well, if 100% does not require completing every Corridor, I'm not so sure I feel motivated to do a 100% run. Now it feels way too close to the any% run. A handful of the optional Corridors are still required for 100%, but meh, it wouldn't take all that much longer, so it doesn't seem like it's worth it.

I'll still do a stream over the weekend, for those of you interested in my planned path. If I have time, I'll do two runs: my proposed deathless path, followed by my planned with-deaths path. We'll see how long they take; if it's too close to the any% run, I'll probably drop the 100% run and experiment some more on improving the current run instead.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Oh, well, completing every corridor makes sense.
Not a schmuck.
If that's the case, then I'll definitely still be doing this run.

What's your opinion on the mini-bosses? Some of them drop redundant powerups, so they're not all required. I could see going either way on this one.

And what about Consecutive Firing? It affects your rate of fire, but there is no visual indicator on the status screen like there is with Attack and Shield. You can collect up to five before maxing it out.

Edit: I've decided to start streaming this Saturday, December 19, at 3:00 PM PST (11:00 PM GMT). I'll probably be doing two runs; one deathless, and one with deaths.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Minibosses aren't required, especially since there's no way to track them.
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
I don't think corridor completion is tracked on the status screen either though. Only 1 through 10 are essential for opening the lock to the last one, #20. It should still be pretty obvious to verifiers if you've completed all of them due to that numbering scheme. Plus, don't some of the optional ones have red landers or essential weapons as rewards?
Not a schmuck.
Yes, some optional Corridors do have required pickups. Specifically, Corridors 12, 14, 15, 16, 17, and 20 have pickups that cannot be equivalently replaced with a separate powerup.

It sounds like the emphasis is "trackability", so that means Consecutive Firing shouldn't be a requirement since it isn't tracked. In that case, this is the formal definition of 100%:

1. Beat all Corridors
2. Get all Red and Blue Landers (9 of each)
3. Max all weapon powerups to three
4. Max all Attack and Shield powerups (3 for Attack, and 6 for Shield)

These are all easily verified.

1. Simply watch the player beat each Corridor; there are 21 of them.
2. Acquiring all nine Red Landers will result in a max chip count of 4000. Blue Landers are a bit trickier, since they increase max life, and max life is also increased by score at 30k, 100k, 500k, 1m, and 2m points. A 100% speed run should easily place the player's score between 1m and 2m, so after all nine Blue Landers, the player's max life should be 21.
3. A fully maxed weapon will have a purple outline in the status screen, as opposed to green or blue. The only exception is Enemy Eraser, which can only be "powered up" once, but since Enemy Eraser is the reward for Corridor 10, this can safely be ignored.
4. You will see four guns for Attack and seven shields for Shield when these are maxed out. Note that the player starts with one of each, which is why only three Attacks and six Shields are required for pickup.

Pending a confirmation from Mike that this is a suitable 100% definition, I will modify my route accordingly.
My feelings on The Demon Rush
Sounds fine to me.
Not a schmuck.
I will begin streaming tomorrow at around 2:30 PM PST, though since this is my first stream, it will take me a bit to get set up. This is why I'm starting a half hour early. I won't actually begin the run until 3:00. Feel free to show up early, if you want.

Link to the stream
Not a schmuck.
Here's an update after my test run on Saturday.

Unless I was getting ridiculously unlucky with getting hit, it appears that the eighth and ninth Shield powerups actually do increase your defense, even though they aren't depicted on the status screen. During my test run, I actually died against Corridor 9 boss, which never happens. In fact, every Corridor in Areas 7-10 was noticeably more difficult than normal.

There were two occasions when I had to stop attacking the boss and start using Enemy Eraser until I got enough health back; once in Corridor 9, and once at the final boss. I'll experiment with different weapon strategies (I used Fireball against these two bosses), but either I'm going to have to rely on some serious luck, or I'll have to pick up at least one extra Shield along the way. It takes roughly twenty seconds to get the Shield powerup from the mini-boss in Area 5, so I may do that in my first submission. Then I'll try to improve it without the eighth Shield in a future run.

Also, apparently my map is wrong, because I ended the game with only two Grenade powerups instead of the max three. >_< Whoops!
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
Huh, I couldn't avoid that stupid Grenade weapon if I tried. (Okay, it's not that bad, sometimes I use it on those eyeball turrets in the red area)

You use the Fireball (I think the official name is Fusion Cannon) on the final boss? I always used the 2 although that eats up Chips really fast. You'd need to get a bit lucky with powerups. It might be worth using up to a certain point and then switching to the cheaper fireball, maybe when he turns red and the fireball can eat all the stupid projectiles he throws at you.
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
http://tasvideos.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3834&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=40

Hmm, here's an important find. Someone is TASing the game and he worked out a damage chart. Damage to bosses is capped at 5, so it's probably best to find a weapon that can merely hit them consistently.
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
Been playing this game for fun again and came up with a speedrun route from the ground up, but I don't know if it will beat Votava's 63 minutes. Haven't timed it yet. I haven't seen his run in a while, so can someone remind me of the following:

- How did he fight that blue eyeball hairy boss in Corridor 3? I can't find a good special weapon to use on him so I just set my weapon to No Use and fire shots. I can damage him fairly consistently this way but I want to find a faster method. I discovered you can get away with level 3 double saber for the red one in Corridor 21, but that's because it destroys Gradius-style bullets. Once I get an emulator set up out here I can experiment with a similar method, I guess...
- How many Power Chips did he collect? The SDA screenshot shows over 2100 chips but I don't know if those are capped from the speedrun footage. My route collects 1600 because the convenient alternative leaves you with only 800, and much worse, only 400 for Red Optomon. You get 1200 if you take the time to get some extra ones.

The TAS is still unfinished but I took some tips from the damage chart that should improve my route already. Apparently the side waves weapon actually isn't stronger at level 2, it just shoots faster.

My route can beat the game fairly easily so I'll try cutting a Defense upgrade and see if it's still doable. I'm not sure which one to cut though, because two of the later ones I collect are right next to each other, and the last one is a toss-up between either a Blue Lander or the defense upgrade. The Defense upgrade is almost certainly the better choice because this game is not about dodging at all, it's about taking advantage of the cyclical rhythm and manipulation of power-ups.

Some "sequence breaking" could be possible but I don't recommend it simply because of how the map is traversed.

When I get a computer of my own I'll check the WIP TAS, Votava's run, and both runs on superplay.co.uk.

No plans to do 100%, that sounds really boring.
Yes, a worthless avatar riding my posts.
Aaaaaack Votava's run is sorely in need of obsoletion!

- captured from what is unquestionably the most run-down VHS tape I've ever seen
- inferior tactics and performance on a lot of bosses
- gets every Red Lander, you can easily do with one less; one less than that, however...I explained that in my previous post
- uses Enemy Eraser out of fear way too much
- He gets hit a lot (well, I do too, but I slam into bullets and asteroids to get more points while he just takes hits from large and threatening enemies), and while I can easily outscore him, he hits the 1 million levelup during the clutch moment of the final battle. So I need to ask myself how I can make my performance look awesome when I'm not killing almost everything on screen >_>
- worst of all, it's a no-death run, so we have to watch him plod his way back out of every area. If I have to do the run deathless to get on SDA (lolwut) then I'll do that though, otherwise I think his run will survive as the "no-death" category. Maybe I'll obsolete that after the TAS comes out for good measure.
- I'm pretty sure I can get away with fewer Blue Landers...will try that tonight.

But I did discover where to use the fireball weapon, and how to beat the hairy wheel minibosses faster. So thanks for that Tom.

Alluro's TGL run gave me a good idea for the boss rush: your shields cause damage equal to your attack power (number of gun upgrades you have on the status screen) so ram into them for some extra power, XD

Still no luck on the blue hairball boss though.

I haven't had the chance to check out the WIP TAS yet though.
Angered Me, You have!
Quote from ShinerCCC:
I haven't had the chance to check out the WIP TAS yet though.

Don't bother, it's not even a 3-4 minute wip (if I am not mistaken) so you probably wont benefit anything from it.